Helping Patients Navigate SCLC Treatment: Tools, Transparency, and Supportive Care
Dr. Jacob Sands and Nurse Practitioner Stephanie McDonald both of Dana Farber Cancer Institute discuss the complexities of treatment decision-making for small cell lung cancer, exploring how providers can help patients navigate overwhelming options.The panel discusses practical tools for educating patients about side effects, the crucial role of palliative care, and why early support can dramatically improve both quality of life and outcomes.
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Transcript:
Dr. Nicole Rochester:
So, Ms. McDonald, I want to go to you, because Dr. Sands just described some very exciting treatments with very promising results. And I can only imagine that this information, while great, is also overwhelming to patients when they’re presented with all of these options? So are there specific decision aids or tools that you use when you’re talking with patients and families to help them understand the risks and the benefits of the different treatment options as they’re making decisions?
Stephanie McDonald:
So, yes, there are a lot of different treatment options. And with that, you know, we need to be aware of the potential toxicity associated with the treatment that patients are getting, which don’t come without risks. Right. Most patients do pretty well on immunotherapy, but there definitely are toxicities, you know, as far as, like, colitis or pneumonitis and rashes. There are things that are going to be education points that need to be made with patients to know what to look out for depending on what treatment they’re getting.
So I think it is incredibly important not only to provide education sheets to patients to reinforce these discussions, but like I spoke to earlier, I have a separate visit with the patients to be able to spend at least an hour the first time they are given a treatment plan, to be able to feed through all of the potential side effects. And I don’t want to overwhelm patients because you could be a bad, you know, commercial going over every single side effect. But we do need to be realistic with patients about what to be on the lookout for, what might come up, when to call if something does occur.
So I think the most important thing is breaking it down for patients to really easy-to-understand information and you can really gauge. I prefer to see patients in-person or at least have a virtual encounter with them over like a telephone encounter, because you can really gauge how a person might be responding to what you’re teaching them.If someone’s a deer in headlights and they’re overwhelmed by the information that you’re sharing, you need to be able to stop, take a few steps back, and break it down to easy-to-understand information for not only them but for their family members.
I think it’s really important that we also care for the family member as well. IWhen you walk into the room, you’re not just taking care of the patient, you’re taking care of every single person that is in their life. Like they have supportive families who are coming to these appointments who are equally as overwhelmed, or maybe there’s a shift in their role. And now that maybe somebody was a primary caretaker, very active and matriarch, or a patriarch in the household, and now there’s a shift in a whole role and dynamic for how these patients are going forward along their journey.
So we need to be able to spend time to unpack all of that to really understand how we can best support these patients. So besides just education tools, which I think just help reinforce the information that we go over with them as far as breaking down what are the side effects of treatment, how often will you be coming into clinic? People want to know simple things like what do you dress comfortably to come into clinic? What does the infusion room look like? It’s things that maybe as providers we don’t take a moment, because it’s second nature up to us to know kind of the…what the logistics are to somebody’s day in an infusion center.
But this is brand new information for most patients, and that can be incredibly crippling and overwhelming. So on top of providing concrete information as far as what side effects to expect, I also want to be doing a real time evaluation about what their supports are, what their needs are, are they losing weight, are they coming in and need help right off the bat with a dietitian? Are we assessing for their nutritional needs? Are we assessing their psychological needs? Because we know that anxiety, depression, fear of the unknown are very common emotions as a part of a cancer diagnosis and especially one as significant as small cell lung cancer.
So we really want to be talking to patients about the resources that we can encourage them to tap into or think about and talk with their family if they think they would benefit from these. I think one referral that I think often goes later in offering to patients is referrals to palliative care. And I think I just want to make a quick point, and Dr. Sands can talk to it as well, is the importance of implementing palliative care along a patient’s journey early. And there is data to support that when you implement palliative care services early, patients are living actually longer.
Jennifer Temple put out a study probably several years ago, Jacob, you could probably quote me on the date of that. But it’s shown that patients are living longer with improved quality when resources such as palliative care are implemented earlier. And I think it’s very difficult for patients when they hear the word palliative care. They already have this notion in their head that they don’t understand actually what it is. I think a lot of patients think that it’s hospice. They think I’m dying, you, you’re sending me to hospice. There are no more treatment options.
But I implement palliative care as an understanding of supportive oncology. How can we support you to improve your quality of life from the get-go of when you come in and start your journey? And, I make these referrals early. I do it in a non-threatening way and just lay it out as an additional support to help improve their quality of life and really balance the treatment that we’re giving them with again improving their quality of life over the long term. So I do think that referrals to palliative care should be considered and implemented early in a patient’s course in treatment.
Dr. Nicole Rochester:
Dr. Sands?
Dr. Jacob Sands:
Yeah, I agree. Supportive oncology is such an important component, and they often can play a role in helping with controlling symptoms like pain. I mean, of course, I want to know about pain. Of course, we can manage pain as well and I’m happy to add that into office visits. I also find though that for patients sometimes having visits where they’re talking more about those symptoms and others where they’re talking more about the cancer, actually for some patients works better for them. I am happy to help manage pain and do other kinds of medications around symptom management. So, you know, that can also happen within our clinic as well.
But like I said, I think for some patients, it works better for them having these two different teams that they’re interacting with and kind of sharing their story a bit more. It also allows them to really share that story in the way that they want to talk about it. And sometimes those are two different ways that they want to talk about it. You know, also related to the whole shared decision-making and discussion of toxicity profile versus benefits and stuff, I think I’ve often heard patients come in, you know, I see a lot of second opinions and such.
And so they’ll come in and say, well, this doctor told me all of these horrible things that are going to happen with the treatment. And so why would I even want to do that? And, you know, this is…I never actually know what was said to somebody, right? Because people are telling me what they heard, and I’ve heard patients come back or, you know, they get admitted to the hospital and what they tell the inpatient team about my discussion with them. I’m like, oh, I would never say something like what you just said.
So again, patients are experiencing all of this in an emotional way, and I think we have to be attentive to that. So the way that I’ll often talk about this is not just a matter of it’s not. I want to highlight what it’s not first. It is not saying, oh, all of these terrible things could happen. Because that way, if it does, I told you that was a possibility. Okay, that’s not necessarily the transparency we’re going for. The transparency we’re going for is kind of the overall context. Like, hey, this is the overall risk. Yes, here are some things, but here’s the likelihood of those things.
And so what I’ll often do for patients is I’ll often use the analogy. I often talk in analogies. I think that makes it more accessible. For this one, I’ll commonly say, if I were to ask you what could happen on my drive home, then you’re probably going to say, oh, you might hit some traffic, but you’ll be fine. And if I say, well, what are all the things that could happen? Now, that becomes this long, scary list. Now I often say off the bat, like, a drive home is nothing like having cancer.
I’m not saying that these are comparable, but just talking about it in a way in this analogy, so we can give more context so when I talk about, oh, the risk of immunotherapy, okay, you can end up with type 1 diabetes. You can have inflammation and problems with your heart. Okay, these sound like really severe, scary things. The likelihood of this kind of a thing happening is like on the scale of a bad car accident. Yes, it can happen, but this shouldn’t drive your decision-making. That’s very different than just listing out all the different things that can happen.
And I really encourage other providers to talk with their patients in some kind of a way that provides that. We’ll say, okay, here’s the long list of all the things that can happen. More realistically, what I expect is this.
Dr. Nicole Rochester:
Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that. Thank you for highlighting that balanced approach. I love the analogy with the ride home. I think that’s great advice for providers.
