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Lung Cancer Treatment Decisions: What’s Right for You?

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Lung Cancer Treatment Decisions: What’s Right for You? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

When choosing an lung cancer treatment, what should be considered? Dr. Jessica Bauman, a lung cancer specialist, reviews treatment types and key decision-making factors, including how test results influence options and provides advice to help you advocate for better care.

Dr. Jessica Bauman is assistant professor in the department of hematology/oncology and as associate program director of the hematology/oncology fellowship training program at Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia. Learn more about Dr. Bauman here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

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The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

Transcript:

Katherine:                  

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today we’ll discuss how you can be proactive in your lung cancer care to partner with your healthcare team to make the best care and treatment decisions for you. Joining us today is Dr. Jessica Bauman. Welcome, Dr. Bauman. Would you please introduce yourself?

Dr. Bauman:              

Absolutely, thank you so much for inviting me here today. My name is Jessica Bauman, and I am a thoracic and head and neck oncologist at Fox Chase Cancer Center.

Here I am also the associate program director for our hematology/oncology fellowship program as well as one of the disease site leaders of one of our research teams.

Katherine:                  

Excellent, thank you. A reminder that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.

Dr. Bauman, from my understanding, there are two main types of lung cancer – small cell lung cancer and non-small cell lung cancer. Would you provide a brief overview of how these two types of lung cancer differ?

Dr. Bauman:             

Absolutely. So, I think it’s important for any new patient who’s coming in, to see me or any medical provider. The first thing we need to establish when we are thinking about a lung cancer diagnosis is what the cells look like under the microscope. And the simplest way to think about this is either they look like small cell lung cancer, or they look like non-small cell lung cancer.

And that really can decide what kind of treatment we need to pursue. For small cell lung cancer – small cell lung cancer can be a more aggressive lung cancer that certainly can spread throughout the body and requires more urgent treatment in general when we’re thinking about the speed in which we need to start to treat patients for this cancer. For non-small cell lung cancer, in general, we don’t have to start treatment as quickly as we need to for small cell. And there is a lot more information right now that we need other than just the simple non-small cell lung cancer diagnosis. We need to know whether it is adenocarcinoma or squamous cell carcinoma, which are further subdivided.

And then we often need even more information about those subtypes to be able to decide ultimately what the best treatment plan is.

Overall, I would say about 15% of lung cancers are small cell. So, they’re more rare. And about 80% to 85% of lung cancers are non-small cell. And the most frequent kind of non-small cell lung cancer right now is adenocarcinoma. It didn’t used to be that way. Squamous cell carcinoma actually used to be more common, but in more recent years, adenocarcinoma is becoming more common. And interestingly, it’s also becoming more common in women.

Katherine:                  

Why is it becoming more common?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, part of that is we think that the demographics are changing somewhat in terms of lung cancers. So, the traditional risk factor, of course, of lung cancer is smoking, however, not all patients who have lung cancer were smokers. And we are seeing, in fact, more people being diagnosed with lung cancer who have never smoked or, in fact, are light smokers. And so, we think that that is likely playing a role.

Katherine:                  

Before we move into testing and staging, are there any common misconceptions you hear when you see new lung cancer patients for the first time?

Dr. Bauman:              

Sometimes I see people think, “Oh, lung cancer is a death sentence.” I certainly see people say that. But I think that one of the wonderful parts about being a lung cancer oncologist right now is our treatment options have really been revolutionized in the last 10 to 20 years. And we have more options right now, and we have a better understanding of this cancer, then we ever have had.

And so, I do think that I look with more optimism at this diagnosis, obviously, which is still quite devasting to patients and their families.

Katherine:                  

Right. Dr. Bauman, what testing should take place following a lung cancer diagnosis?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, this very much depends on how the cancer was diagnosed initially. So, some cancers are diagnosed on screening – lung cancer CTs right now – but other cancers are found incidentally, for other reasons. Or there are some that are diagnosed with a scan because somebody’s developing a symptom. So, in general, what I would say is that we always need good imaging essentially of the entire body when a lung cancer is suspected. Often this includes CAT scans, but this very commonly also includes a PET scan. And it will often include a brain MRI as well because the best way to the look at the brain is with an MRI.

Obviously, that can vary a little bit depending on what studies people have already had and what radiologic techniques are most accessible.

Katherine:                  

What about molecular testing and biopsies?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, sorry, I was sort of going on the imaging. But so, of course, you need full imaging. But the first thing you need to do that is paramount is establishing a histologic diagnosis, which goes to this initial thought of, “Is this small cell? Is this non-small cell? What is it?” So, if there is a lung mass that is suspected to be lung cancer, the first thing that happens is a biopsy as well as imaging. The imaging helps us establish, “Has this gone anywhere else? Does it involve the lymph nodes?” and helps us with the initial staging workup. Often there is a biopsy of the mass itself.

But there are often biopsies as well as the lymph nodes that are involved, in particular in the center of the chest called the mediastinum, because that also helps us establish the stage of the cancer.

And then if the cancer does look to have spread to somewhere else, we sometimes biopsy only that area or that area in addition to establish that it, in fact, has spread to a different place such as the liver or the bone. Once that biopsy is done, and once we know what type of lung cancer it is, then we also send more studies on the biopsy itself that help us determine what the best treatments are, in particular when we’re talking about what I call “systemic treatments.”

So, treatments that are going into the body and all over the body that involved immune therapies, chemotherapies, or targeted therapies. So, that extra testing that we do is something that’s called molecular testing.

It’s also called next generation sequencing. There are a bunch of different terminology that we use.

Katherine:                  

Okay. Dr. Bauman, would you walk us through how lung cancer is staged? And is it different for small cell vs. non-small cell lung cancer?

Dr. Bauman:              

Absolutely. So, as we talked about, the first thing that we do is we do get a biopsy to establish the diagnosis. The second piece is often if it looks to be a cancer that is only limited to the chest – so there is a mass and maybe some activities in lymph nodes that we’re concerned about but nowhere else – not only do we want to biopsy the mass itself, but we also want to know whether those lymph nodes are involved. So, those are biopsied because that will tell us the stage of the cancer. Staging very much depends on the size of the tumor itself, and then it also depends on, “Has it spread to lymph nodes in the center of the chest, and has it spread outside of the chest to other places?”

And so, early-stage lung cancers are just the primary cancer itself that has not spread anywhere else. More advanced stage lung cancers – things like Stage IIs and Stage III lung cancers – are ones that also involve the lymph nodes. And then a Stage IV lung cancer involves a lung cancer that has spread to somewhere outside of the body. And depending on the stage is really what determines the way we approach treatment for these patients.

Katherine:                  

And that is actually my next question. What do the results of these tests tell us about prognosis and treatment choices?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, they tell us stage, and, ultimately, prognosis and treatment choices are completely linked to the stage of a cancer. So, an early-stage lung cancer, often a Stage I or Stage II lung cancer, primarily our first choice of treatment is surgery. And if surgery is feasible for the patient – because, of course, it also depends on their other medical comorbidities and whether they can withstand a surgical resection of the cancer.

But usually, early-stage lung cancers we start with surgery. And then depending on what the pathology shows us, we sometimes include a course of chemotherapy afterwards to decrease the risk of the cancer coming back. More advanced lung cancers, so Stage III lung cancers, often involved what we call “multiple modalities.” So, for some patients we do a combination of chemotherapy and radiation in an attempt to cure the cancer. Often that is followed by immunotherapy. There are other patients who have Stage III lung cancer where we do chemotherapy and radiation and follow that with surgery.

So, it’s a very case-dependent decision algorithm, where it really depends on where the tumor is, the type of tumor, what the surgery would be, what the patient’s underlying health status is, etc.

And then if it is a Stage IV cancer, often we are really approaching this with systemic therapies. So, once a cancer has spread outside the lung, we traditionally think of this often as an incurable cancer. And there is a much more limited role of surgery and radiation, though I wouldn’t say that they’re absolutely off the table. Again, we sometimes think of these in sort of a case-by-case scenario. But in general, our approach for a Stage IV cancer is with some kind of systemic therapy. And that completely depends on all those special tests that we do that we were talking about that we send on that initial biopsy.

Katherine:                  

What about the significance of chromosomal abnormalities?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, what I would say is, what we do for, in particular, in the setting of a Stage IV lung cancer diagnosis right now, is we send molecular testing on the biopsy samples of these patients, in particular if they have adenocarcinoma.

And the reason we do this, what this gives us, is it tells us about the DNA of the tumor, and whether there are genes in the tumor that are changed in some way that are affecting the cancer’s ability to grow. And the reason that’s so important, is there are new treatments that really capitalize on those changes in the tumor to be able to stop the cancer from growing. The best example of this is for people who have something called an EGFR mutation.

And there are multiple different kinds of mutations. I call it “alphabet soup” because there are so many different letters and numbers.

But if people have an EGFR mutation that we think is one of the primary reasons they have this cancer growing, there are pills that target that EGFR protein that stop the cancer from growing. But if they don’t have that mutation, then those pills are not gonna do them any good.

And so, that is really where lung cancer treatment and diagnosis has become so personalized based on, of course the person itself, but also the characteristics of their tumor.

Katherine:                  

How can patients advocate for a precise lung cancer diagnosis, and why is that important?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, it’s, of course, important because it changes everything that they would be able to be offered in terms of treatment. And so, I think that it is important to, one, really understand what your lung cancer is. Right? What is the stage? What are the treatment options? And if there are treatment options that are not options for you, why is that? And is that because of special testing that has been done? So, I think it’s always important to ask, “Are there other special tests that I need to have on my tumor or on the biopsy?”

And if patients have questions about what options that they have, I think it’s important for them to understand why some options are theirs, and why other options may not be good options for them, and how their physician is making those decisions. Because I do think the more you understand about this, the better you can advocate for the types of treatments you can access.

Katherine:                  

Absolutely. We just covered some of this, but when deciding on a treatment approach with a patient, what do you take into account when making the decision?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, we take into account all of the things that we’ve been talking about. Of course, the No. 1 most important part is the histology, so what the kind of cancer is. No. 2 is what the stage is. And then No. 3 is the health characteristics of that patient.

Do they have underlying health problems that would impact the types of treatment that we would consider? And then ultimately, what are the goals of the patient? Right? So, of course, we have lots of different options, but it’s going to be important to partner with the patient and their family to understand where they are in their life and what kinds of treatments are feasible and acceptable to them.

Katherine:

What about treatment side effects? Do you take that into consideration?

Dr. Bauman:              

Absolutely. So, I always talk about my two primary goals for when I’m treating a patient is 1.) is to help them live as long as they can, and No. 2 is to help them live as well as they can. And I do think it is critical to understand the side effects of our treatments and how that may impact the patient and what their underlying issues are. So, for example, if I have a patient who comes to me who already has significant neuropathy because of a prior diagnosis of some kind, we need to strongly consider the types of treatments we’re using to consider one that doesn’t cause neuropathy.

Right? And often there are different treatments that we have where we can really consider the side effects and quality of life for patients in terms of what we have. I’ll also say that treatments and the supportive care that we have to offer have become better over time. So, yes, of course, we give toxic treatments, but we definitely are able to support people better with the side effects that they have to try to minimize those and make it as tolerable as we can.

Katherine:                  

What do you feel is the patient’s role in this decision, and how does shared decision making come into play?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, I think the patient’s role is, of course, this is their body and their lives. Right? I think that it very much is a decision that we make together. And of course, as a lung cancer expert, yes, we’re gonna talk about what we recommend as what we think is, sort of, the gold standard treatment.

But you can’t make anybody do anything. Right? You want people to be their own advocate in terms of their health. And so, I need to know how someone is feeling. I need to know if they’re having significant side effects from treatment. And so, I think the more they can tell me, the more they can ask questions, the more they can understand their illness, the better we can partner to be able to face it together.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Bauman, now that we’ve discussed factors that go into the treatment choice, would you walk us through the currently available lung cancer treatment approaches and who they might be right for?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, we talked about this a little bit, but I would say, so, certainly, the different types of lung cancer treatment depends on the stage of the cancer.

But in general, I’m thinking about the broad categories that we have. So, number 1 being surgery. So, surgery is absolutely one of the most important aspects of lung cancer treatment that we have and is one of the ways in which it is possible to cure lung cancer. So, surgery can happen both as an open surgery, but there are also more minimally invasive surgeries now that have also revolutionized the way they can do surgery in lung cancer. And so, that absolutely plays a very significant role in the treatment of lung cancer.

The second broad approach that I would say is that of radiation.  So, radiation also plays a very critical role in lung cancer, often more in advanced-stage disease for patients who have, for example, Stage III disease, where the treatment that we consider is a combination of chemotherapy and radiation also with curative intent.

So, the idea behind this is that it’s cancer that is still in the chest, but it has spread to the lymph nodes in the chest, and a combination of chemotherapy and radiation may still be able to cure patients of this cancer. And so, radiation also can play a critical role. And interestingly, in small cell – which we’ve spoken a little bit less about – radiation and chemotherapy play a very important role in small cell, and often surgery plays less of a roll in small cell. And so, our treatment approach using radiation is in both of these kinds of cancers, and often we’re doing a full course of radiation also in an attempt to cure the cancer for the patient.

The last, sort of, broad category of treatment that I would say is what I call “systemic treatments.” So, that is targeted treatment. That is chemotherapy. And that is immune therapy.

And what we use of those three types of treatments completely depends on the patient’s stage and more information about that patient’s tumor, in particular, the molecular testing as well as what we say is called PD-L1, which is a marker on the tumor that tells me about the responsiveness to immunotherapy.

Often, we use a combination of many of these treatments. So, there are patients who get surgery and then chemotherapy. There are patients who get chemotherapy and radiation and then surgery. And there are patients who get only what we call systemic therapies.

I will also say it’s important to note that for radiation, although there’s a proportion of people that we use radiation with curative intent for a long period of time – so, a six-week course of radiation – we also use radiation to help with symptom management if someone’s having a specific problem that’s causing them a symptom where radiation may help.

The classic example of that is pain. So, if they have a spot in the bone that is causing them a lot of pain, a short course of radiation to shrink that tumor where that is, can be very helpful. And so, radiation we can also use to help with palliation of symptoms. The other things that I’m not getting into significantly today, but are also there, are there are other types of procedures that have become more common where you can go in, for example, with an interventional radiologist and do an ablation of a tumor.

Our interventional pulmonologists also do significant amount of ability to access the lungs and the lymph nodes to be able to help with diagnosis, but they can also do something like a debulking procedure where they can get rid of some of the cancer to stop it from bleeding.

They can also stent open the cancer to help people breathe better. So, there are multiple different other team members who also are really critical to our patient’s care.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. How do clinical trials fit into the treatment plan?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, clinical trials are very important in all of our decision making. So, there are many different kinds of clinical trials, but clinical trials are where we are offering the newest potential treatment options for patients. And there are some clinical trials where it’s a brand-new drug that’s never been in a person before, but there are also clinical trials of drugs that we use from a different disease that has been effective, and now it has good evidence, potentially, in lung cancer, and so it’s being used in lung cancer. There are also trials of new combinations of treatments.

So, for example, one of the most recent, sort of, classic treatment-changing trials was a large trial where everybody who had chemotherapy and radiation for Stage III lung cancer, then received a year of immune therapy vs. not receiving immune therapy to see if that new treatment would help them live longer or would prolong their survival.

And in fact, that trial was very positive, and so it changed the way we treat Stage III lung cancer. So, again, these are just examples of types of clinical trials. But clinical trials are where we are finding out what may be the next best treatments for patients.

And so, when I’m thinking about a treatment approach to a patient, I’m incorporating all of the things that we talked about, but I’m also then thinking about, “Are there clinical trials that may also be relevant to them for their specific situation?” whether that is a clinical trial that involves surgery in some way, or whether that’s a clinical trial that involves a new drug, whether it’s a clinical trial that’s offering a new kind of supportive care.

So, there are lots of different kinds of clinical trials that may be relevant to patients.

Katherine:                  

Are there emerging approaches for treating lung cancer that patients should know about?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, absolutely. I think that there are so many clinical trials that are going on right now for all sorts of different lung cancers.

I think one of the amazing parts about lung cancer right now is how, as I said before, how personalized it has become, and how each individual, depending all of the different factors we talked about, what treatments are best for them. But it also depends on there also may be clinical trials that are specific for that person. And so, for example, if you have a new diagnosis of Stage IV cancer, and you have an EGFR mutation or an ALK mutation, you want to know about clinical trials that are specific to that population because for you, those are what are most relevant for you.

If you have a new diagnosis of a Stage III lung cancer, then you wanna know, “What are the clinical trial options for patients who have Stage III lung cancer?” And so, there are many clinical trials that are asking, sort of, the next best question of, “How can we improve the current standard of care?” And often there really are trials in each of these different areas. So, it’s not just a one-size-fits-all.

Katherine:                  

Some patients can be fearful when it comes to clinical trials. What would you say to someone who might be hesitant in participating in one?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, I very much understand that. I think any kind of treatment can be a scary thing. But I think, as I said before, I think the more that you can understand about your cancer and understand about the science and the research, it helps you then understand where the trial fits in terms of your treatment options.

I think that if you understand what to expect from the treatment that you’re getting, and then what the plan B and plan C could look like, I think that piece of it is also important. And you know, I think that one of the hardest parts about lung cancer right now is even though we have all of these new promising therapies and multiple new approved drugs, with a diagnosis of Stage IV lung cancer, most of the time the cancer learns to grow. And so, even though we have treatments that work really well, there will be a time for most people where the cancer starts to grow, and we need to think about, “Well, why is the cancer growing?”

And often, that is the setting where clinical trials are very relevant because clinical trials are often thinking about just that, “Well, why is the cancer becoming resistant? What is different about the cancer now? And is there some change that would make it relevant for you to do one specific trial over another specific trial?”

Katherine:                  

Well, and that leads us to treatment monitoring. Once a patient has started treatment, how do you know if it’s working?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, we do regular imaging. So, once you have a diagnosis of lung cancer, a CAT scanner will become your friend. In general, depending on what stage of lung cancer you have, you will have a bunch of imaging up front, and then once a treatment plan is put into place, after that treatment has either been completed or started, you will be monitored, in general, regularly for the lung cancer diagnosis. Now, after surgery, that will be for more for surveillance to make sure that the lung cancer doesn’t come back. But if it is more in the setting of a Stage IV lung cancer, then the imaging really helps us determine, “Is the treatment working or not?”

And so, after we start a treatment, usually anywhere between six and eight weeks, we repeat imaging to see, “Is this working? Is it smaller? Is it the same? Has it grown?”

And based on that imaging, and based on how the patient is doing with the treatment, we then decide, “Do we continue this treatment, or do we need to change to a new treatment?” And so, we regularly monitor the patient’s cancer through regular imaging.

Katherine:                  

Let’s talk about patient self-advocacy. Patients can sometimes feel like they’re bothering their healthcare team with their comments and questions. But why is it important for patients to speak up when it comes to their symptoms and their side effects?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, this, I would say, it’s a partnership. The bottom line is, and if I don’t know that something is going on, I can’t help to solve the problem. And if I don’t know about something, a new symptom that could be, potentially, majorly concerning, patients can also get really sick or even end up in life-threatening situations. And so, ignoring things or just hoping things will go away is not in a patient’s best interest.

I think that it is critical that patients are their own self-advocate. I think that I say that often, and I’ve already said that a couple of times on this, but we don’t know unless we’re hearing from them what’s going on. And so, it is so important for patients to keep us updated if they’re worried about something. Certainly, we see them very frequently, and so they can often tell us at their visits what’s going on. But overall, the in-between time is just as critical because it is often the treatments that we give can cause side effects at any time. And so, it is really important that we know about anything that’s going on and for patients to always give us a call.

I mean, that’s the bottom line is, is that if they’re worried about something, we need to know about it.

Katherine:                 

What supportive care options are there for patients who may have pain management difficulties or even emotional support?  Where do they start?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, there are often many different kinds of supportive care for patients. I would say that oncologists, of course, are one layer of supportive care. We do a lot of help with symptom management and often even pain management as well as coping and emotional support. However, there are also other people often within cancer centers that are also available to help. And this includes social workers. It also includes psychologists and psychiatrists.

And then the other thing that I think is really important to mention is that we know for patients who have lung cancer or an advanced lung cancer diagnosis, that integrating a palliative care team – a supportive and palliative care team – early into their diagnosis actually helps them live longer as well as better. They have better quality of life, and they have decreased problems with mood.

And so, we know that supportive care and palliative care, specifically in lung cancer, is particularly helpful for both patients and their caregivers. And so, it’s important for patients to also know that there is a whole team, that I think of as, sort of, an extra layer of support, that can help them with symptom management as well as with coping with the day-to-day of what can be a devastating diagnosis.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. That’s really great advice. To close, what would you like to leave patients with? Are you hopeful?

Dr. Bauman:              

So, I would say I am absolutely hopeful. I think that it is so important to know how many changes have happened in lung cancer in the last decades and how much more research is going on everyday to try to improve the care that we can deliver. And so, it’s a great time to be a lung cancer oncologist.

But we also have so much more work to be done.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Bauman, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Bauman:              

Absolutely, my pleasure.

Katherine:                  

And thank you to our audience for joining us as well. Please fill out the survey that you’ll receive following the program. It helps us to plan future lung cancer programming. And thank you to all of our partners.

To learn more about lung cancer and to access tools to help you become a more proactive patient, visit PowerfulPatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us.

 

Navigating Lung Cancer Treatment Decisions

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Navigating Lung Cancer Treatment Decisions from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What steps could help you and your doctor decide on the best treatment path for your individual disease? This animated video walks through key considerations, including molecular testing results, lifestyle factors and patient preference.

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

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Why You Should Consider a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment

Diagnosed with Lung Cancer? An Expert Outlines Key Steps

Transcript:

Hi, I’m Kendra. I’m a nurse practitioner and I specialize in lung cancer.

When diagnosed with lung cancer, it’s important to take steps to get a deeper understanding of your disease, and the available treatment options, so that you can feel confident in your care decisions.

Before we walk through the actions that can help you decide on a treatment path, I want to remind you that this video is intended to help educate lung cancer patients and their loved ones and shouldn’t be a replacement for advice from your doctor.

OK, let’s get started.

The first step is to understand your diagnosis—including the type of lung cancer and stage of disease—so that you can find out what treatments are available to you. Your physician will use tests, including biopsies and imaging, such as X-rays and CT scans, to ensure you have an accurate diagnosis.

The next step is to understand the approaches available for YOUR individual disease.
Depending on your stage and type of lung cancer, treatments can include:

  • Surgery
  • Radiation therapy
  • Chemotherapy
  • Targeted therapy or
  • Immunotherapy

Or, you may receive a combination of one or more of these treatments.

Other testing that can impact your treatment options is molecular testing, which is used to identify specific mutations that are unique to your lung cancer. This may help in deciding if targeted therapies are an appropriate option for you.

Before you start any treatment, it’s essential to ask your doctor if you have had relevant molecular testing.

Another option that your physician may discuss with you is clinical trials, which may provide access to treatments that are not yet approved. At different points on your path with lung cancer, it’s important to talk with your doctor about whether there is a clinical trial that could be right for you.

Once you understand the treatments that are available to you, it’s time to talk to your doctor about the risks and benefits of each option and walk through the goals of your treatment.

One of the most important factors that your healthcare team will consider is YOUR treatment goals. Remember, you are a partner in your care and have an active voice in finding the best treatment for you. Physicians also typically consider a patient’s age, overall health, and existing conditions before they suggest a course.

So, what questions should you address when you are discussing your treatment goals with your doctor? Consider asking:

  • Is the goal of the treatment to cure your disease or to obtain long-term control your disease?
  • How effective will the treatment be and how will it impact your quality of life and lifestyle?
  • What are the treatment side effects–both the short-term effects as well as long-term effects that may occur after you have completed treatment?
  • Is there a member of the team, such as a social worker, that can help you understand the potential treatment costs? And is there access to financial resources that can help you if needed?
  • Are there supportive care options that can help with symptoms and pain management at any stage of your cancer?

It also may be a good idea to consider a second, or even third opinion consultation with a specialist. And, if you don’t feel supported or you don’t feel heard by your healthcare team, then it is always best to get another opinion.

Finally, once you have gathered all the information, it may be helpful to talk it out with people you trust, such as a partner, friend or family member, to help you make a decision that you feel confident about.

Now, how can you put this information to work for you?

  • Make sure you understand your type and stage of your lung cancer and the goals of your treatment options.
  • Talk to your physician about what you’ve learned.
  • Consider a consultation with a lung cancer specialist.
  • Ask about molecular testing and what testing results mean for you.
  • Discuss whether clinical trials are an option for your cancer.
  • Visit credible online resources to stay up to date on lung cancer information.
  • Visit powerfulpatients.org/lungcancer to learn more about lung cancer.

Lung Cancer and Coronavirus: What Patients Should Know

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Lung Cancer and Coronavirus: What Patients Should Know from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Due to COVID-19, many patients with lung cancer must follow new guidelines to receive care. Dr. Tejas Patil provides precautions patients should consider and the role telemedicine plays in lung cancer care.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Transcript:

Dr. Patil:                     

Lung cancer patients are certainly at very high risk of complications from COVID-19. And it’s understandable, especially given the kinds of treatments that patients with lung cancer receive, that there’s a lot of them will wind up having compromised immunity which makes them at increased risk for adverse outcomes from COVID-19. That being said, I think it’s really important that this be balanced with the actual risk of untreated or inadequately treated lung cancer, which is also a major medical concern. What I tell patients is that, at least at our institution, we do everything we can to create an environment that is as safe as possible from a COVID mitigation standpoint.

But at the end of the day, untreated lung cancer can have a very aggressive course, and so making sure that patients understand that as we try to move things to a more telemedicine type approach, that there are some things where you really just have to come and see your doctor. Not everything can be done virtually.

I think telemedicine is helpful for patients who have very stable disease and are on anti-cancer treatment, so specifically a patient on targeted therapy, for example.

A pill once a day. Their last scans show that they’re doing really well. They feel well. They’re exercising every day. That patient, probably we can do a visit virtually and just make sure and check in that there’s nothing new or concerning that’s come up.

The other patient that probably I can see a role for telemedicine is someone who had, let’s say, a Stage 1 lung cancer that was treated with surgery, and we’re just monitoring them on surveillance. That patient probably doesn’t have to come into the clinic to see us. But in general, the thing about lung cancer is that most patients are getting some kind of chemotherapy or immunotherapy and will be coming into an infusion center, and so what I would tell patients is if there’s any new or concerning symptoms, to a very low threshold for seeking an in-person evaluation.

Should Lung Cancer Patients Be Retested Over Time?

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Should Lung Cancer Patients Be Retested Over Time? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Dr. Tejas Patil discusses the necessity of re-testing lung cancer patients over the course of their treatment, including when additional molecular testing may be appropriate.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Transcript:

Katherine:                  

Is it necessary to retest at any time?

Dr. Patil:                     

In general, I strongly advocate that patients who are on targeted therapies obtain additional molecular testing after they’ve progressed, and the reason is the following.

Cancer cells evolve resistance mechanisms to overcome targeted therapies and understanding these resistance mechanisms can be quite helpful in designing next lines of treatments.

A very good example of this is in EGFR lung cancer. The very first type of targeted therapy for EGFR positive lung cancer was a drug called Erlotinib. What we had seen was that when patients were on this drug, Erlotinib, they would respond, and they would do really well for a period of time.

But after a period of time, patients would progress on this therapy, and a very common mutation that we would find, once they progressed was a mutation called T790M. By biopsying this patient and finding this mutation, it was very helpful because it allowed the medical community and researchers to investigate a new drug called Osimertinib, which can overcome that resistance mutation.

And we’re learning a lot about resistance pathways and resistance mutations in lung cancer, so I think it’s very important that patients who are on targeted therapies specifically get retested and re-biopsied.

Considering a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment? What You Should Know

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Considering a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment? What You Should Know from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo. 

Dr. Tejas Patil explains why lung cancer patients should consider participating in clinical trials and the role trials play in treatment choices for lung cancer.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Deciding on a Lung Cancer Treatment? Essential Testing for Optimal Care

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How Can You Access Personalized Lung Cancer Treatment? Resource Guide

Transcript:

Dr. Patil:

In general, I would highly recommend patients consider clinical trials. I think there’s a couple of things to point out. It’s very important to remember that clinical trials are evaluating novel therapies as compared to current standard best practice. So, placebos are rarely used in cancer research unless there’s no known effective therapy. It’s important to remember, it’s not ethical to have someone take placebo if there’s known treatment that work, so when a patient enrolls in a clinical trial, sometimes they don’t know which treatment they’re getting, but at least they will know that whatever treatment they’re getting is the best current standard of care.

I want to also point out that clinical trials really answer, in my mind, two important questions. The first question is, is the new treatment safe? And does the new treatment work better than current standard of care? These are really important questions for advancing the field, especially in cancer research. Clinical trials are a small part of the research. I mean, when a drug that’s getting introduced into a clinical trial, it’s sometimes helpful to think about all the investment that has gone in before them. The drug has to be discovered, created.

It has to be purified, tested in animal studies, before it ever reaches human studies. And so, there’s only the most promising agents are actually ever introduced at clinical trials, and there’s a lot of data to show that the biggest barrier for completing clinical trials, and therefore understanding which treatments are effective, is really participant enrollment.

I think there was a recent study that showed that about, I think less than five percent of patients, less than 1 in 20, with cancer will ever take part in a clinical trial, Therefore, if a patient has that opportunity, I would strongly encourage them to consider it.

Targeted Lung Cancer Therapies vs. Chemotherapy: What’s the Difference?

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Targeted Lung Cancer Therapies vs. Chemotherapy: What’s the Difference? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo. 

Targeted lung cancer therapies and chemotherapy are both options to treat patients with lung cancer. Dr. Tejas Patil discusses the differences between these forms of therapy, including a discussion of effectiveness and side effects.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Deciding on a Lung Cancer Treatment? Essential Testing for Optimal Care

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Lung Cancer Staging: What Patients Should Know

Transcript:

Katherine:                  

How do the newer therapies differ from the more traditional chemotherapy?

Dr. Patil:                     

Chemotherapy is still an important tool in an oncologist’s arsenal.

It works by killing, or rather it works by affecting a cancer cell’s ability to divide and grow. The logic here is that since cancer cells typically grow faster than normal cells, chemotherapy is more likely to kill cancer cells. It should be noted that while that is true, there are certain cells in the human body that grow very quickly as well, such as hair follicles, the lining of the mouth, and cells within the bone marrow. And so, as a result, it’s very common that the side effects of chemotherapy typically affect these cells, so you typically see hair loss. You see mucositis, or inflammation of the mouth, diarrhea, and low blood counts, and this a general side effect of chemotherapy.

Katherine:                  

Are there common side effects for some of the newer therapies as well?

Dr. Patil:                     

That’s a great question and the way I’m going to answer that is it depends on the mutation that the targeted therapy’s affecting. So, a mutation that I’m going to use as an example is a mutation called EGFR. Now, this is a mutation that we see in lung cancer that causes cancer cells to grow, divide, and metastasize.

But EGFR is interesting because it also is found in normal cells, and specifically it’s found in the cells of the skin and the gut lining. This is an example where you’re giving a very targeted therapy that’s trying to attack just the cancer cell, but because normal skin cells and gut cells have this EGFR receptor, the side effects there tend to be rash and diarrhea. Now, that’s unique to EGFR. There are other drugs such as the ALK mutation or the ROS1 mutation that do not have this side effect because that specific receptor is not found in the human body.

Katherine:                  

Oh, I see. Well, how is the effectiveness of treatment monitored?

Dr. Patil:                     

Typically, I have the philosophy that patients generally know their body and can tell when symptoms are getting better or worse. So, as a guiding principle, I rely on patient input very heavily. That being said, I corroborate that experience with some testing. In my practice, I frequently use what we call serum tumor markers, so these are very nonspecific-like tests that sort of let us know if there’s cancer type proteins in the blood that we can detect while they are on targeted therapy.

And then additionally I would recommend that patients get scans frequently, at the minimum every three months if they are on targeted therapy and doing otherwise well. That includes a CT scan of the chest and abdomen, and in certain cases, an MRI of the brain, if there were brain metastases before.

Lung Cancer Treatment: How Do Targeted Therapies Work?

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Lung Cancer Treatment: How Do Targeted Therapies Work? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Lung cancer specialist, Dr. Tejas Patil, explains how targeted therapies work to fight lung cancer, including how these treatments are administered and which patients they may be right for.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

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Transcript:

Dr. Patil:

We have learned that there are several cancers, such as breast and colorectal cancer, where there’s clear evidence that there are hereditary genes that increase an individual’s risk for developing cancer. I personally prefer the term molecular testing over genetic testing as this emphasizes that we’re looking for specific mutations that are really acquired during a patient’s lifetime and typically not inherited.

Katherine:

How do genetic mutations in lung cancer affect treatment options for patients?

Dr. Patil:

Well, the finding of a molecular alteration, or an oncogene, is really important for a patient with lung cancer because it offers a unique class of therapy that the patient would not have had otherwise. Finding a mutation is important because it allows patients to have treatment options outside of traditional chemotherapy or immunotherapy.

Katherine:                   

Dr. Patil, how do targeted therapies work?

Dr. Patil:

Targeted therapies are interesting. They work by specifically targeting and blocking specific mutations in lung cancer, and so it’s kind of like a lock and key model. By blocking the binding site of a mutation, the treatment actually prevents that cancer cell from properly functioning, and this in turn causes the cancer cell to be unable to divide, unable to grow, and ultimately results in cancer cell death. Targeted therapies typically come in either a form of a pill.

That’s the most common way that patients take targeted therapies.

As an aside, I will note that there’s a very unique class of targeted therapies called antibody-drug conjugates. These are really fascinating molecules. They are treatments that are consistent, but very complex, bioengineered structures, so what you have is an antibody that targets some protein on the surface of a cancer cell, a mutation.

This antibody is linked to a chemotherapy payload, and so it allows for very potent chemotherapy to be delivered effectively and selectively to cancer cells, sort of like a Trojan Horse effect where the antibody finds the cancer cell, goes inside the cancer cell, and once the whole structure is inside the cell, that’s when the chemotherapy is released.

Therefore, it’s a way of giving chemotherapy in a more targeted way, and there are several of these in clinical trials right now.

Katherine:     

Well, you mentioned patients taking pills. What other treatment regimens are there for the targeted therapies?

Dr. Patil:

For targeted therapies, the most common is a pill. The schedule depends on the mutation, so it can sometimes be once a day or twice a day. And then, there are IV treatments that we see, and that is the antibody drug conjugate that I’m referring to where patients will have to go to a infusion center to get those. But to my knowledge, most of those are still in the context of a clinical trial, and so I think it’ll be a while before we start seeing them commercially licensed. 

What Are Common Lung Cancer Mutations?

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What Are Common Lung Cancer Mutations? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Advances in genetic testing have changed the way lung cancer is diagnosed and treated. Dr. Tejas Patil reviews common lung cancer mutations and how these mutations affect treatment choices for patients with lung cancer.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Transcript:

Dr.Patil:

There’s been tremendous advances in lung cancer. One of the biggest advances has been the appreciation that there are very specific mutations that actually “drive” cancers that cause them to grow, divide and metastasize.

We call this mutation an oncogene. Over the past two decades, there have been many oncogenes in lung cancer that have been identified. Interestingly several of these oncogenes, such as the ALK mutation, or the EGFR mutation, tend to occur in patients who were never smokers.

So, while smoking is the major environmental risk factor for lung cancer, our understanding of these, through molecular testing has identified a group of patients who were never smokers yet still developed lung cancer. The reason this is important to know is that there’s a variety of targeted therapies available for patients who do have mutations such as ALK or EGFR, and these are typically associated with very favorable outcomes in lung cancer.

I should mention that the scope of what mutations we find very much depends on the type of molecular test that’s performed. This is a topic that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, but know that when you say you are getting genetic testing, a lot of that depends on the genes that are in the test, meaning if a molecular test is only looking for 10 genes, or 10 mutations, it’s only going to pick up 10 mutations versus more comprehensive molecular testing, which look at hundreds or even thousands of genes, will identify more mutations.

That being said, there are approximately 10 mutations currently for which there are targeted therapies, either that are commercially licensed through the FDA, or are being evaluated in the context of the clinical trial.

And in patients who are heavy smokers, the most common mutation that we see that’s an oncogene is a KRAS mutation, and there’s currently drugs in clinical trials that are looking to target a very specific KRAS mutation.

 In never smokers, the mutation spectrum is actually quite a bit more varied, and here, we see mutations such as ALK, EGFR, ROS1, RET, MET, HER2 and BRAF.

There’s another biomarker that we use in lung cancer that’s not technically a mutation, per se, but it’s very important for clinicians to obtain, and that’s called a PD-L1 score. This is a score that helps clinicians decide how effective immunotherapy can be in a certain patient.

There are some mutations that are very common in lung cancer such as TP53, but these are mutations where we can’t actually, we don’t have a targeted approach to manage them. So, when I refer to common mutations, I’m talking about mutations where I either have a drug that is available and able to target the mutation, and this drug is being either investigated in a clinical trial, or is commercially licensed.

In lung cancer, the most common oncogene would be KRAS, and there, there’s a couple of exciting clinical trials where there are some promising drugs in development for treating this specific mutation which has been very challenging to treat in lung cancer.

Lung Cancer Staging: What Patients Should Know

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Lung Cancer Staging: What Patients Should Know from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo. 

Lung cancer specialist, Dr. Tejas Patil, defines the differences between non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC) and small cell lung cancer. He goes on to explain how imaging tests such as CT and PET scans are used to stage lung cancer.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Transcript:

Dr. Patil:                      

Lung cancer has a bit of a confusing nomenclature. Historically, Lung cancer was divided into small cell lung cancer and non-small cell lung cancer, and this distinction was based on how the lung cancer appeared under a microscope, but it also has practical implications. Small cell lung cancer tends to have a very different biology than non-small cell lung cancer. It originates from neuroendocrine cells and is treated very differently than non-small cell lung cancer.

Non-small cell lung cancer is also a bit of a misleading term because it really is a catch-all term. It represents a wide group of histologies that are not small cell lung cancer. So, basically, anything that isn’t small cell lung cancer will be non-small cell lung cancer, but that group is very heterogenous and includes subtypes like adenocarcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, adenosquamous, large cell and even sarcoma type variance.

Distinguishing between the two is important because the prognosis and treatment options are actually very different between small cell and non-small cell lung cancer.

After a diagnosis of lung cancer has been made, the most important next step is to establish a cancer stage, and so this is typically done through the TNM staging criteria. The T typically reflects the size of the tumor. The N reflects whether there’s lymph nodes involved with cancer and the M refers to whether there’s a metastasis, and metastasis refers to whether the cancer has spread outside of the lung.

Based on a combination of scores using the TNM criteria, lung cancers are staged from one to four. Now, to establish these different scores, oncologists will typically request varieties of scans. These include CT scans, PET CT scans, MRI and in some cases, very sophisticated ultrasound techniques called endobronchial ultrasound, so that’s the staging component

Staging is a very important component of lung cancer, and at minimum, a patient should have a CT scan of the chest and abdomen with extension down to the adrenal glands. The reason for this is that this type of imaging, at least the extent of the imaging, will cover most of the metastatic sites that lung cancer tends to go towards. Additionally, a PET CT scan can be obtained.

Now, a PET scan is a very unique form of imaging. Patients will receive a radio labeled form of glucose and the principle of a PET scan is that since cancers metabolize glucose, which is sugar at a higher rate than normal tissue, the scan in principle helps clinicians identify spots where cancer could be. One important point about imaging and this is something patients should be aware of, is that lung cancers are unique cancers in that there’s a very high risk of spread to the brain.

And so, as part of baseline staging, almost every patient with lung cancer should be getting an MRI of the brain to rule out brain metastases.

Then a final point I’ll make is that patients with Stage 2 or 3 lung cancer really should have their cases reviewed in a multi-disciplinary context where there’s input from surgeons, pulmonologists, medical oncologists, and radiation specialists because the treatment for Stage 2 and 3 lung cancer can be quite complicated.

How Can You Access Personalized Lung Cancer Treatment? Resource Guide

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Download This Guide

How Can You Access Personalized Lung Cancer Treatment?

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How Can You Access Personalized Lung Cancer Treatment? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

When facing a lung cancer diagnosis, how do diagnostic tests affect your treatment plan. Dr. Tejas Patil discusses appropriate testing for lung cancer, latest targeted therapies and how emerging research is affecting patient outcomes.

Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

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Transcript:

Katherine:

Welcome to Insist! Lung Cancer, a program focused on empowering patients to insist on better care. Today, we’ll discuss the latest advances in lung cancer, including the role of genetic testing and how this may affect treatment options.

I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Joining me is Dr. Tejas Patil. Dr. Patil, would you introduce yourself please?

Dr. Patil:                     

Sure. Thank you for inviting me to speak on this platform. My name is Dr. Tejas Patil. I am an Assistant Professor at the University of Colorado, where I take care of patients diagnosed with thoracic cancers, which include non-small cell lung cancer, small cell lung cancer, and also include mesothelioma and thymic cancers. My main research focus is on molecular alterations in lung cancer and development of targeted therapies.

Katherine:                  

Thank you. Before we start, a reminder that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your own healthcare team.

Dr Patil, before we get into an in-depth discussion on lung cancer, would you tell us about the types of lung cancer?

Dr. Patil:                     

Absolutely. Lung cancer has a bit of a confusing nomenclature. Historically, Lung cancer was divided into small cell lung cancer and non-small cell lung cancer, and this distinction was based on how the lung cancer appeared under a microscope, but it also has practical implications. Small cell lung cancer tends to have a very different biology than non-small cell lung cancer. It originates from neuroendocrine cells and is treated very differently than non-small cell lung cancer.

Non-small cell lung cancer is also a bit of a misleading term because it really is a catch-all term. It represents a wide group of histologies that are not small cell lung cancer. So, basically, anything that isn’t small cell lung cancer will be non-small cell lung cancer, but that group is very heterogenous and includes subtypes like adenocarcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, adenosquamous, large cell and even sarcoma type variance.

Distinguishing between the two is important because the prognosis and treatment options are actually very different between small cell and non-small cell lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

Well, let’s talk about testing and diagnosis. Following a diagnosis, are there specific tests that patients should ask their doctor for?

Dr.  Patil:                    

Right. After a diagnosis of lung cancer has been made, the most important next step is to establish a cancer stage, and so this is typically done through the TNM staging criteria. The T typically reflects the size of the tumor. The N reflects whether there’s lymph nodes involved with cancer and the M refers to whether there’s a metastasis, and metastasis refers to whether the cancer has spread outside of the lung.

Based on a combination of scores using the TNM criteria, lung cancers are staged from one to four. Now, to establish these different scores, oncologists will typically request varieties of scans. These include CT scans, PET CT scans, MRI and in some cases, very sophisticated ultrasound techniques called endobronchial ultrasound, so that’s the staging component. I think, in addition to the staging component, once a patient has a diagnosis of lung cancer, the tissue itself can be subject to a variety of different molecular tests which we will cover in this talk.

Katherine:                  

Well, let’s get into the tests. How are each of these tests administered?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, first let’s discuss imaging.

Staging is a very important component of lung cancer, and at minimum, a patient should have a CT scan of the chest and abdomen with extension down to the adrenal glands. The reason for this is that this type of imaging, at least the extent of the imaging, will cover most of the metastatic sites that lung cancer tends to go towards. Additionally, a PET CT scan can be obtained.

Now, a PET scan is a very unique form of imaging. Patients will receive a radio labeled form of glucose and the principle of a PET scan is that since cancers metabolize glucose, which is sugar at a higher rate than normal tissue, the scan in principle helps clinicians identify spots where cancer could be. One important point about imaging and this is something patients should be aware of, is that lung cancers are unique cancers in that there’s a very high risk of spread to the brain.

And so, as part of baseline staging, almost every patient with lung cancer should be getting an MRI of the brain to rule out brain metastases.

Then a final point I’ll make is that patients with Stage 2 or 3 lung cancer really should have their cases reviewed in a multi-disciplinary context where there’s input from surgeons, pulmonologists, medical oncologists, and radiation specialists because the treatment for Stage 2 and 3 lung cancer can be quite complicated. I think, and we’ll talk about the – so, that was the staging part. Now, we can talk a little bit more about the diagnostic testing and molecular testing specifically.                    

There’s been tremendous advances in lung cancer. One of the biggest advances has been the appreciation that there are very specific mutations that actually “drive” cancers that cause them to grow, divide and metastasize.

We call this mutation an oncogene. Over the past two decades, there have been many oncogenes in lung cancer that have been identified. Interestingly several of these oncogenes, such as the ALK mutation, or the EGFR mutation, tend to occur in patients who were never smokers.

So, while smoking is the major environmental risk factor for lung cancer, our understanding of these, through molecular testing has identified a group of patients who were never smokers yet still developed lung cancer. The reason this is important to know is that there’s a variety of targeted therapies available for patients who do have mutations such as ALK or EGFR, and these are typically associated with very favorable outcomes in lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

What are common lung cancer mutations, first of all?

Dr. Patil:                     

There are many mutations that are found in lung cancer. I should mention that the scope of what mutations we find very much depends on the type of molecular test that’s performed. This is a topic that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, but know that when you say you are getting genetic testing, a lot of that depends on the genes that are in the test, meaning if a molecular test is only looking for 10 genes, or 10 mutations, it’s only going to pick up 10 mutations versus more comprehensive molecular testing, which look at hundreds or even thousands of genes, will identify more mutations.

That being said, there are approximately 10 mutations currently for which there are targeted therapies, either that are commercially licensed through the FDA, or are being evaluated in the context of the clinical trial.

And in patients who are heavy smokers, the most common mutation that we see that’s an oncogene is a KRAS mutation, and there’s currently drugs in clinical trials that are looking to target a very specific KRAS mutation. 

Dr. Patil:                     

In never smokers, the mutation spectrum is actually quite a bit more varied, and here, we see mutations such as ALK, EGFR, ROS1, RET, MET, HER2 and BRAF.

I want to make a quick point that there’s another biomarker that we use in lung cancer that’s not technically a mutation, per se, but it’s very important for clinicians to obtain, and that’s called a PD-L1 score. This is a score that helps clinicians decide how effective immunotherapy can be in a certain patient.

Katherine:                  

Are some mutations more common than others?

Dr. Patil:                     

Yes. I mean, there are mutations that are very common. I think to answer that question a little bit more in this cleanly, I would say that there are some mutations that are very common in lung cancer such as TP53, but these are mutations where we can’t actually, we don’t have a targeted approach to manage them. So, when I refer to common mutations, I’m talking about mutations where I either have a drug that is available and able to target the mutation, and this drug is being either investigated in a clinical trial, or is commercially licensed.

In lung cancer, the most common oncogene would be KRAS, and there, there’s a couple of exciting clinical trials where there are some promising drugs in development for treating this specific mutation which has been very challenging to treat in lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

How is genetic testing for lung cancer different from hereditary genetic testing?

Dr. Patil:                     

That’s a great question. We have learned that there are several cancers, such as breast and colorectal cancer, where there’s clear evidence that there are hereditary genes that increase an individual’s risk for developing cancer. I personally prefer the term molecular testing over genetic testing as this emphasizes that we’re looking for specific mutations that are really acquired during a patient’s lifetime and typically not inherited.

Katherine:                  

How do genetic mutations in lung cancer affect treatment options for patients?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, the finding of a molecular alteration, or an oncogene, is really important for a patient with lung cancer because it offers a unique class of therapy that the patient would not have had otherwise. Finding a mutation is important because it allows patients to have treatment options outside of traditional chemotherapy or immunotherapy.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Patil, how do targeted therapies work?

Dr. Patil:                     

Targeted therapies are interesting. They work by specifically targeting and blocking specific mutations in lung cancer, and so it’s kind of like a lock and key model. By blocking the binding site of a mutation, the treatment actually prevents that cancer cell from properly functioning, and this in turn causes the cancer cell to be unable to divide, unable to grow, and ultimately results in cancer cell death. Targeted therapies typically come in either a form of a pill.

That’s the most common way that patients take targeted therapies.

As an aside, I will note that there’s a very unique class of targeted therapies called antibody-drug conjugates. These are really fascinating molecules. They are treatments that are consistent, but very complex, bioengineered structures, so what you have is an antibody that targets some protein on the surface of a cancer cell, a mutation.

This antibody is linked to a chemotherapy payload, and so it allows for very potent chemotherapy to be delivered effectively and selectively to cancer cells, sort of like a Trojan Horse effect where the antibody finds the cancer cell, goes inside the cancer cell, and once the whole structure is inside the cell, that’s when the chemotherapy is released.

Therefore, it’s a way of giving chemotherapy in a more targeted way, and there are several of these in clinical trials right now.

Katherine:                  

Well, you mentioned patients taking pills. What other treatment regimens are there for the targeted therapies?

Dr. Patil:                     

For targeted therapies, the most common is a pill. The schedule depends on the mutation, so it can sometimes be once a day or twice a day. And then, there are IV treatments that we see, and that is the antibody drug conjugate that I’m referring to where patients will have to go to a infusion center to get those. But to my knowledge, most of those are still in the context of a clinical trial, and so I think it’ll be a while before we start seeing them commercially licensed.

Katherine:                  

How do the newer therapies differ from the more traditional chemotherapy?

Dr. Patil:                     

Chemotherapy is still an important tool in an oncologist’s arsenal.

It works by killing, or rather it works by affecting a cancer cell’s ability to divide and grow. The logic here is that since cancer cells typically grow faster than normal cells, chemotherapy is more likely to kill cancer cells. It should be noted that while that is true, there are certain cells in the human body that grow very quickly as well, such as hair follicles, the lining of the mouth, and cells within the bone marrow. And so, as a result, it’s very common that the side effects of chemotherapy typically affect these cells, so you typically see hair loss. You see mucositis, or inflammation of the mouth, diarrhea, and low blood counts, and this a general side effect of chemotherapy.

Katherine:                  

Are there common side effects for some of the newer therapies as well?

Dr.  Patil:                    

That’s a great question and the way I’m going to answer that is it depends on the mutation that the targeted therapy’s affecting. So, a mutation that I’m going to use as an example is a mutation called EGFR. Now, this is a mutation that we see in lung cancer that causes cancer cells to grow, divide, and metastasize.

But EGFR is interesting because it also is found in normal cells, and specifically it’s found in the cells of the skin and the gut lining. This is an example where you’re giving a very targeted therapy that’s trying to attack just the cancer cell, but because normal skin cells and gut cells have this EGFR receptor, the side effects there tend to be rash and diarrhea. Now, that’s unique to EGFR. There are other drugs such as the ALK mutation or the ROS1 mutation that do not have this side effect because that specific receptor is not found in the human body.

Katherine:                  

Oh, I see. Well, how is the effectiveness of treatment monitored?

Dr. Patil:                     

Typically, I have the philosophy that patients generally know their body and can tell when symptoms are getting better or worse. So, as a guiding principle, I rely on patient input very heavily. That being said, I corroborate that experience with some testing. In my practice, I frequently use what we call serum tumor markers, so these are very nonspecific-like tests that sort of let us know if there’s cancer type proteins in the blood that we can detect while they are on targeted therapy.

And then additionally I would recommend that patients get scans frequently, at the minimum every three months if they are on targeted therapy and doing otherwise well. That includes a CT scan of the chest and abdomen, and in certain cases, an MRI of the brain, if there were brain metastases before.

Katherine:                  

Is it necessary to retest at any time?

Dr. Patil:                     

This is a good question and it’s an evolving question. In general, I strongly advocate that patients who are on targeted therapies obtain additional molecular testing after they’ve progressed, and the reason is the following. Cancer cells evolve resistance mechanisms to overcome targeted therapies and understanding these resistance mechanisms can be quite helpful in designing next lines of treatments.

A very good example of this is in EGFR lung cancer. The very first type of targeted therapy for EGFR positive lung cancer was a drug called Erlotinib. What we had seen was that when patients were on this drug, Erlotinib, they would respond, and they would do really well for a period of time.

But after a period of time, patients would progress on this therapy, and a very common mutation that we would find, once they progressed was a mutation called T790M. By biopsying this patient and finding this mutation, it was very helpful because it allowed the medical community and researchers to investigate a new drug called Osimertinib, which can overcome that resistance mutation.

And we’re learning a lot about resistance pathways and resistance mutations in lung cancer, so I think it’s very important that patients who are on targeted therapies specifically get retested and re-biopsied.

Katherine:

Let’s move on then. Dr. Patil, what are you excited about in lung cancer research right now?

Dr. Patil:                     

I thought ASCO 2020 this year was a very exciting cancer conference, and I’m very excited about where lung cancer research is going. I think there are two areas to be very hopeful about.

First, is that there have been several oncogenes or mutations that we had known about for a very long time, but there was just no targeted therapy available. I think in the next several years, you’re going to start to see more and more targeted therapies available for patients who have otherwise rare mutations.

And examples of this would include KRAS G12C, RET, Met and HER2, so this is very exciting because these were mutations that we had known about for a long time, but just until more recently really haven’t had any successful therapy for.

The other area that’s very exciting is that we’re starting to see the use of targeted therapy and immunotherapy in patients who have earlier stage cancer. So, there was a lot of talk this ASCO about using targeted therapies in patients who have, for example, Stage 3 lung cancer, and is there a benefit in doing that? I think that’s going to be a very interesting development of patients who have Stage 1 to 3, which we typically treat with curative intent, how do we make sure that they improve their outcomes and really stay cured?

Katherine:                  

Right. What would you say to patients who are nervous about participating in a clinical trial?

Dr. Patil:                     

That’s a great question. I really appreciate you asking that. In general, I would highly recommend patients consider clinical trials. I think there’s a couple of things to point out. It’s very important to remember that clinical trials are evaluating novel therapies as compared to current standard best practice. So, placebos are rarely used in cancer research unless there’s no known effective therapy. It’s important to remember, it’s not ethical to have someone take placebo if there’s known treatment that work, so when a patient enrolls in a clinical trial, sometimes they don’t know which treatment they’re getting, but at least they will know that whatever treatment they’re getting is the best current standard of care.

I want to also point out that clinical trials really answer, in my mind, two important questions. The first question is, is the new treatment safe? And does the new treatment work better than current standard of care? These are really important questions for advancing the field, especially in cancer research. Clinical trials are a small part of the research. I mean, when a drug that’s getting introduced into a clinical trial, it’s sometimes helpful to think about all the investment that has gone in before them. The drug has to be discovered, created.

It has to be purified, tested in animal studies, before it ever reaches human studies. And so, there’s only the most promising agents are actually ever introduced at clinical trials, and there’s a lot of data to show that the biggest barrier for completing clinical trials, and therefore understanding which treatments are effective, is really participant enrollment.

I think there was a recent study that showed that about, I think less than five percent of patients, less than 1 in 20, with cancer will ever take part in a clinical trial, Therefore, if a patient has that opportunity, I would strongly encourage them to consider it.  

Katherine:                  

Do you think a second opinion is necessary? Would you encourage patients to consult with another specialist?

Dr. Patil:                     

In general, I’m a big advocate that patients should get all the information they need to make informed treatment decisions, and if that involves getting second opinions, I welcome that.

 I think that a knowledgeable patient is an empowered patient, and certainly a knowledgeable patient is one that I think will be able to guide themselves through a very complex medical journey. So, in general my philosophy is I’m always encouraging of second opinions if the patient feels that they need more information to make a best decision.    

Katherine:                  

What advice do you have for patients who may be hesitant to speak up and advocate for themselves when it comes to their care and treatment?

Dr. Patil:                     

Great question. In general, I’m a big believer that an empowered patient is a patient that can make really good medical decisions as they navigate their own medical journey. Ultimately, it’s important for patients to be knowledgeable and seek multiple opinions. Really get the best advice, so that they make the best decisions. Oncology is a very complicated field. The treatment options can be very nuanced.

Therefore, it’s important to know that when a decision is presented to a patient, that it is a decision that is made with the knowledge of what is the best standard of care. But if the patient doesn’t feel like they have the most informed data to guide their own medical decision making, then it’s really important for them to advocate for themselves.

To that point, especially for some of these rarer mutations, there are many social media patient advocacy groups that are very, very, very well organized, very effective, and have a list of really useful questions. Some examples of that are the ALK Positives and the EGFR Resisters.

Katherine:                  

Okay. I would be remiss if we didn’t discuss COVID-19 to some extent. What should lung cancer patients be considering at this time?

Dr. Patil:                     

This is also a very important and timely question. lung cancer patients are certainly at very high risk of complications from COVID-19. And it’s understandable, especially given the kinds of treatments that patients with lung cancer receive, that there’s a lot of them will wind up having compromised immunity which makes them at increased risk for adverse outcomes from COVID-19. That being said, I think it’s really important that this be balanced with the actual risk of untreated or inadequately treated lung cancer, which is also a major medical concern. What I tell patients is that, at least at our institution, we do everything we can to create an environment that is as safe as possible from a COVID mitigation standpoint.

But at the end of the day, untreated lung cancer can have a very aggressive course, and so making sure that patients understand that as we try to move things to a more telemedicine type approach, that there are some things where you really just have to come and see your doctor. Not everything can be done virtually.

Katherine:                  

Right, and my next question was is telemedicine the best approach right now?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, that’s also, I’m going to answer that in a somewhat frustrating way, which is that there’s – yes and no. I think telemedicine is helpful for patients who have very stable disease and are on anti-cancer treatment, so specifically a patient on targeted therapy, for example.

A pill once a day. Their last scans show that they’re doing really well. They feel well. They’re exercising every day. That patient, probably we can do a visit virtually and just make sure and check in that there’s nothing new or concerning that’s come up.

The other patient that probably I can see a role for telemedicine is someone who had, let’s say, a Stage 1 lung cancer that was treated with surgery, and we’re just monitoring them on surveillance. That patient probably doesn’t have to come into the clinic to see us. But in general, the thing about lung cancer is that most patients are getting some kind of chemotherapy or immunotherapy and will be coming into an infusion center, and so what I would tell patients is if there’s any new or concerning symptoms, to a very low threshold for seeking an in-person evaluation.

Katherine:                  

As a researcher in this field, Dr. Patil, what do you want to leave the audience with? Are you hopeful?

Dr. Patil:                     

I’m very hopeful. I think, it’s kind of amazing when I look at the history of lung cancer and where the field was in the 2000s, now that we’re in 2020, and what remarkable advances have been made in 20 years. It’s worth reminding patients that in 2000, there was, platinum chemotherapy was the first line for metastatic lung cancer, and then there was a second line chemotherapy and that was basically it. Now we’re in an era where we have extensive molecular testing of lung cancer. We’re identifying new mutations that can be targeted with very sophisticated pill-based therapies. We have immunotherapy. We’re learning about how these combine with each other to produce the most optimal outcomes, so I think in 20 years a lot has been achieved, and I’m really excited to see where we go from here.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Patil, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Patil:                     

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. This was wonderful.

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners.

To learn more about lung cancer, and to access tools to help you become a more proactive patient, visit www.powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell.  

Key Next Steps After a Lung Cancer Diagnosis: Expert Advice

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Key Next Steps After a Lung Cancer Diagnosis: Expert Advice from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo. 

Following a lung cancer diagnosis, the actions that a patient takes may impact their long-term care and treatment options. Dr. Erin Schenk, a lung cancer specialist, lists key steps a patient should consider post-diagnosis.

Dr. Erin Schenk is an assistant professor in the division of medical oncology at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center. Learn more about Dr. Schenk and her lung cancer research here.

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

Related Programs:

Diagnosed with Lung Cancer? Why You Should Seek a Second Opinion

Why You Should Consider a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment

Diagnosed with Lung Cancer? An Expert Outlines Key Steps

Transcript:

Dr. Erin Schenk:

As a medical oncologist who takes care of lung cancer patients, I would recommend that if you or a loved one are diagnosed with lung cancer, going to your meeting with the cancer doctor report the surgeon or the radiation doctor with a couple of main questions to ask in order to better understand your diagnosis and the treatment options.

So, the first one is what stage and stage is a descriptor that we use that talks about how far the lung cancer has spread if it’s spread at all. And sometimes, this involves additional testing to give you the best, most accurate answer. Oftentimes, patients are diagnosed with scans, but what’s also – excuse me, scans of the chest, but what’s also really important is better understanding whether or not lymph nodes in the middle of the chest are also involved.

This can require either a PET scan or occasionally procedures where tissue, the lymph nodes biopsied, and tissue samples are taken to see if the lung cancer has spread to those lymph nodes. PET scans are also able to better tell us whether or not lung cancer has spread outside of the lungs. And additionally, and MRI of the head can often be a really critical piece of information to better understand whether or not the lung cancer has spread to the brain. Unfortunately, lung cancer is one of those cancers that can spread to the brain tissue.

So, the first piece of information and more tests might be needed, is stage.

The second piece of information that’s very important is what type of lung cancer, and sometimes, this occurs hand-in-hand with better understanding stage. Usually, this involves a biopsy, so a sample of the tissue needs to be taken and then looked at underneath a microscope by a pathologist who are doctors who help us identify which type of lung cancer it is that a patient has. And then the final thing to ask your care team or your doctor is do I need additional molecular testing?

Molecular testing is a critical piece of information in order for doctors like me to help take care of lung cancer patients. Molecular testing lets us know what role immunotherapy might play in your diagnosis. It also lets us know whether or not targeted therapy which are oral pills we sometimes call TKIs are appropriate for your disease and your stage. These pieces of information, so stage, what type of lung cancer, and if molecular testing is necessary, these are, I think, the three critical pieces that you need going forward to help your cancer doctor and team better formulate a plan that is right for you.

Finally, I’d like to add in that if you are in a situation where you would like a second opinion, or you would like to get more thorough answers, I would encourage you to look for an academic center or a large medical center that has specialists who focus in on lung cancer. We are often very happy to see patients and talk with them about their treatment plan if any other tests or evaluations are needed to help you feel confident in the plan that your doctors closer to home have put together. That’s it.

Why You Should Consider a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment

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Why You Should Consider a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Dr. Erin Schenk, a lung cancer expert and researcher, explains why patients with lung cancer should consider a clinical trial and the role trials plays in clinical care.

Dr. Erin Schenk is an assistant professor in the division of medical oncology at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center. Learn more about Dr. Schenk and her lung cancer research here.

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

Related Programs:

Lung Cancer Treatment: What Is Immunotherapy?

What You Need to Know About Lung Cancer Research

New and Improved Lung Cancer Treatment Options

Transcript:

Dr. Erin Schenk:

We have a very active clinical trial practice in the lung cancer world for one reason alone, and that’s that while our current therapies are good, we can still do better. Lung cancer accounts for significant cancer-related deaths in the United States and the world. And we wanna work to try and improve how well patients do and also improve how many patients we are able to cure. Clinical trials can be at any step of your workup or treatment.

So, even patients with earlier-stage disease meaning lung cancer where we can resect it with surgery, there are a number of clinical trials going on right now to try to better improve the outcomes we see with our normal standards of care. So, whether you are having a lung cancer removed by surgery whether you’re receiving chemotherapy and radiation and immunotherapy whether your lung cancer has happened to spread outside of the lungs, there are clinical trials available at every step in the game.

And I would really encourage you to ask your cancer care team or your doctor about whether or not clinical trials might be available in your area. Because often, they can help identify new targets or other ways of trying to attack the vulnerabilities of your lung cancer.

If you are considering a clinical trial, there are a number of important questions to find out from the clinical trial team as well as your cancer care team. Some of the things are really practical, logistical questions and one of those is, “How often do I need to come to clinic? How many more schedule visits do I need?”

Usually, with clinical trials, upfront so before you get on the clinical trial or once you start receiving the clinical trial medicine or therapy, often there are more frequent visits in that initial time period. But after things are – after you’ve had several treatments with the trial medicine, often it becomes more standard of care meaning visiting once every three weeks for blood work and a visit with your team and then infusion.

So, it’s often a little more work up front, and then it gets back to the usual expectations of how often you have to be in our offices. So, I think those logistical concerns are very real because especially for larger institutions, sometimes, coming to our campuses can be a bit of a challenge. So, that would be one. I would recommend discussing logistics. Discussing with your team as to why they think this would be a trial for you is important.

Occasionally, we are able to screen for certain markers or certain things that are expressed on the cancer cells and then match you with clinical trials that try to target those specific molecules or proteins or flags that are on the surface of the cancer cell. So, oftentimes, we try to match patients up to a specific clinical trial, so better understanding why that one was recommended. And then I would ask your team to also discuss what are the side effects that have been noticed.

Often with these clinical trial medicines, we don’t have a lot of experience with how well patients do on these therapies. But sometimes, we can give you an idea in terms of what we expect and what we will watch closely for. So, I think logistics are important, why your doctor or your cancer team thinks this is a good trial for you, and then finally, what sort of side effects have been noticed as best we can tell with this new trial medicine.

Lung Cancer Treatment Advances: What are Antibody Drug Conjugates?

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Lung Cancer Treatment Advances: What are Antibody Drug Conjugates? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

 Dr. Erin Schenk, a lung cancer expert, discusses emerging research around antibody drug conjugates (ADC) and how this therapy works to treat patients with lung cancer.

Dr. Erin Schenk is an assistant professor in the division of medical oncology at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center. Learn more about Dr. Schenk and her lung cancer research here.

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

Related Programs:

Lung Cancer Treatment: What Is Immunotherapy?

Why You Should Consider a Clinical Trial for Lung Cancer Treatment

New and Improved Lung Cancer Treatment Options

Transcript:

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Some interesting research that’s coming to the forefront in the lung cancer field are using new medicines called antibody-drug conjugates. And so, these medicines, I think of as another type of targeted therapy. So, what happens is that cancer cells express certain proteins or certain flags on their surface that aren’t often found on other normal cells.

And what these ADC drugs are able to do is that they’re able to seek the cells that express certain flags, and then deliver a chemotherapy payload directly to those cancer cells. One trial from the recent ASCO annual meeting from this year, 2020, was looking at an ADC that targeted HER2 which can sometimes be over-expressed by lung cancer cells.

And they had good initial reports in terms of patients being able to have disease control for some time and minimal side effects.

So, I think in general the idea of ADCs or looking for surface markers on the cancer cells to try to in a more targeted fashion deliver the chemotherapy payload, I think this is a really exciting area of investigation as well as a new potential therapy for our patients with lung cancer.

Lung Cancer Treatment: What Is Immunotherapy?

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Lung Cancer Treatment: What Is Immunotherapy? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Dr. Erin Schenk, a lung cancer specialist, provides an in-depth explanation of what immunotherapy is, and its role in treating lung cancer.

Dr. Erin Schenk is an assistant professor in the division of medical oncology at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center. Learn more about Dr. Schenk and her lung cancer research here.

See More From the The Pro-Active Lung Cancer Patient Toolkit

Related Programs:

Lung Cancer Treatment Advances: What are Antibody Drug Conjugates?

Diagnosed with Lung Cancer? An Expert Outlines Key Steps

What You Need to Know About Lung Cancer Research

Transcript:

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Immunotherapies are powerful new medicines that we available to us as medical oncologists and especially within patients with lung cancer. Immunotherapies are medicines that help to activate your body’s own defenses to go seek out and kill the cancer cells.

So, immunotherapies prevent stop signs on the cancer cells.

What happens is that as the cancer cells grow and as they become more resistant to your body’s natural defenses, it puts up certain stop signs. And these stop signs prevent your body’s immune system from attacking them. Immunotherapies, basically, it cuts off that stop sign so that your immune cells can go and attack the cancer cells.

Immunotherapies play a role in the treatment of many lung cancer patients, nearly all. So, immunotherapy has recently found a role in curative-intent therapy meaning we give these treatments to you to try and cure you of your cancer completely. And that’s in patients who have advanced lung cancer that they can’t surgically resect, or it’s not safe or feasible to cut out, but it hasn’t spread to anywhere else in the body.

So, often, those patients receive chemotherapy and radiation together, and then they receive immunotherapy for a year. So, that’s one set of patients we treat with immunotherapy. And then most other patients with lung cancers especially metastatic lung cancer or cancer that’s spread elsewhere in the body, immunotherapy plays a role in treatment regardless of what type of lung cancer that you have with a couple exceptions which I’ll get to.

So, first, if patients have small cell lung cancer that has spread in other parts of the body, immunotherapy’s an important part of the initial treatment regimen combined with chemotherapy. That’s one of the first advances in decades for patients with small-cell lung cancer. The other situation where we use immunotherapy in metastatic disease is with non-small cell lung cancer. And here we have data and studies to support the use of immunotherapy either alone or in combination with chemotherapy medicines.

And the determinate, there’s a number of factors we use to help determine whether a patient can get immunotherapy alone or immunotherapy in combination with chemotherapy, that’s based on PD-L1 status. So, that’s the immunotherapy marker that we look for on cancer cells. If the PD-L1 status is high enough on the cancer cells, we can discuss with our patients using immunotherapy alone.

If that PD-L1 marker on the cancer cells is not high, then we can use immunotherapy plus chemotherapy in our patients. One area where we’re still not quite sure how to best use immunotherapy are in patients with driver mutations or some of these mutations that we look for with special molecular testing like EGFR, ALK fusions, ROS1 fusions.

What we’ve been learning over time is that immunotherapy alone does not appear to help patients do better for longer. We’ve also been learning through clinical trials that immunotherapy combined with TKIs which is the targeted therapy patients receive if they have one of these driver mutations, that does not appear to be effective or safe from some of these early clinical trials.

There’s some debate right now amongst my national/international colleagues as to whether or not giving immunotherapy plus chemotherapy is the right choice for these patients after TKIs or targeted therapies stop working. It’s really up to the discussions that you have with your doctor and whether or not they think immunotherapy and chemotherapy could be right in that situation.