What is Smoldering Myeloma?

What is Smoldering Myeloma? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What occurs during smoldering myeloma? Watch as myeloma expert Dr. Irene Ghobrial explains smoldering myeloma and progression, and patient and Empowerment Lead Lisa Hatfield shares her perspective of learning from smoldering myeloma patients.

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What is Multiple Myeloma (MM)?

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Transcript:

Smoldering multiple myeloma, also known as SMM, is an early form of multiple myeloma when patients don’t experience issues or symptoms of the condition.

Dr. Irene Ghobrial:

Smoldering myeloma – and, the name says it; it’s almost myeloma, it has a higher chance of progressing to myeloma – in general, it’s about 10 percent per year, and usually, the bone marrow has more than 10 percent plasma cells…….3:04- 3:23 You want to make sure that patient is followed up carefully, and you want to offer, potentially, clinical trials because we want to prevent progression. The hope in the future is you don’t wait until you have lytic lesions, fractures in your bones, kidney failure, and then we treat. The hope is we treat you earlier, and we can make a huge difference in that early interception for myeloma. 

Lisa Hatfield:

So smoldering myeloma, or SMM, smoldering multiple myeloma, is the precursor to multiple myeloma. Not every person who has smoldering is going to move right into myeloma. They have high-risk smoldering myeloma, which is not the same as high-risk multiple myeloma. It’s really important if you’re diagnosed with smoldering myeloma, to find a specialist.

And the reason why is we have a couple people in one of my support groups who were diagnosed with smoldering myeloma. And depending on the provider you talk with, some choose to treat smoldering myeloma. Some choose to watch and wait and monitor that myeloma. The other important thing to know is there are many clinical trials out there for smoldering myeloma patients. And your provider, particularly any specialists you may have contact with, even if it’s just for a consult, they can help navigate you to those clinical trials that might be best for you. Some of them require you to be close to a large medical center. Some of them allow you to live at your local location and  just travel maybe once a month or once every couple of months. But it’s really important to talk to a specialist about those clinical trials to see if that would be something that would be of interest to you.

How is Multiple Myeloma Staged?

How is Multiple Myeloma Staged? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

How is staging used in multiple myeloma? Watch as expert Dr. Abdullah Khan explains staging and its use, and myeloma patient and Empowerment Lead Lisa Hatfield shares how the use of staging and its factors have evolved over time.

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What Are the Beginning Stages of Multiple Myeloma (MM)

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Where Should I START Following My Myeloma Diagnosis

Transcript:

Healthcare professionals use a combination of lab test results, imaging tests, and bone marrow exams to determine the stage of multiple myeloma. The revised International Staging System or Durie-Salmon Staging System may be used in determining a patient’s multiple myeloma stage. 

Dr. Abdullah Khan:

The patients are assigned stages I to III. To determine the ISS you need lab values for the beta-2 microglobulin and albumin. For the revised ISS, you add on the lab value for LDH, lactate dehydrogenase, and you also add in the chromosome risk profile. So, there are certain genetic changes that predict a more aggressive myeloma. And the ones added to the revised ISS staging system are translocation 4;14, translocation 14;16, and deletion 17p.” 

Lisa Hatfield:

So staging with multiple myeloma is really unique. A lot of times people think that every cancer has four stages. That is not true with myeloma. There are three stages for myeloma. And even now as of this year, some providers, some oncologists are not even staging myeloma. They’re looking at the risk factors, the cytogenetic risk factors to see if you’re standard risk or high risk. They’re not even using the staging system. It’s interesting. Back when I was diagnosed back in 2018, there were two staging systems used. One was the Durie-Salmon scale. I was diagnosed as stage III, which is the highest level. Mine was based on the fact that I had a lot of bone lesions and bone involvement.

But there’s also one called R-ISS, the revised ISS staging. And that one I was staged at stage I. So it’s really important to get a myeloma specialist on board quickly, because my myeloma specialist explained why I had two different stages I was staged at. She used the R-ISS, the more current system, the stage I and also looked at my cytogenetic risk factors. So your doctor will talk to you about FISH testing. And FISH testing might show something like translocations in the myeloma cells themselves or genetic abnormalities in the myeloma cells themselves. And that helps them dictate also what your risk will be going forward and how to treat that, how to treat your myeloma as a result of those risk factors and the stage you’re diagnosed at.

Your care provider may use other criteria in determining a person’s best optimal treatment. Make sure to ask if you have additional questions.

Where Should I START Following My Myeloma Diagnosis?

Where Should I START Following My Myeloma Diagnosis? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What should multiple myeloma patients do following diagnosis? Watch as myeloma expert Dr. Peter Forsberg shares care and support advice, and patient and Empowerment Lead Lisa Hatfield shares support that she’s found helpful and advice for moving forward to treatment.

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Transcript:

Being diagnosed with myeloma can be a big shock. Here are some key steps you can take from a myeloma expert:

Dr. Peter Forsberg:

I think the first thing you want to do is make sure you have a care team in place you’re comfortable with. That means support from friends and family. It also means providers you’re comfortable with. Usually you’re diagnosed by an oncologist and hopefully that’s somebody that you already feel a good comfortable relationship with.

I always think it’s worthwhile to consider getting a second opinion, another voice. And that could be even if you’re diagnosed at the most high-power academic center in the country, or whether it’s in a more community-type setting. I think having another voice just to make sure everything makes sense, that it seems fairly consistent, and that you understand things as thoroughly as you can. But you do want to get the ball rolling in terms of making a care plan and moving towards therapy if that’s the next step, without taking too much time.”

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, to start following your myeloma diagnosis, I think the first thing that has to happen is you have to allow yourself time to take in  that information from your provider, to think about it, always have another person with you to take notes. Because the shock of getting a cancer diagnosis can overwhelm your mind, and having somebody with a notebook and pen and can take notes during every appointment was really critical for me. My husband went with me, and it was a huge godsend going back and looking at those notes whenever I had to go to another provider to talk about my diagnosis. So I think having a person go with you, having a good medical team, some people prefer to go on the Internet and research myeloma. I did like to do that. I probably found too much information, but it helped me come up with a plan of what type of questions to ask my providers and possibly treatments. I wanted to understand treatments better. So I think trying to figure out your myeloma diagnosis, first start with your medical team, always have somebody with you, and just take your time trying to understand what the team is telling you. There’s usually not a huge rush with a myeloma diagnosis. You don’t have to act within 24 hours, so allow yourself some time.

How is Multiple Myeloma Diagnosed and What Testing is Necessary After?

How is Multiple Myeloma Diagnosed and What Testing is Necessary After? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What testing is involved in multiple myeloma diagnosis and treatment? Watch as myeloma expert Dr. Elizabeth O’Donnell explains specific types of myeloma testing and what they check for, and patient and Empowerment Lead Lisa Hatfield shares testing that she’s received and typical tests for myeloma diagnosis and care.

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Transcript:

So how is multiple myeloma diagnosed? The International Myeloma Working Group (IMWG) confirms diagnosis with both:

  • Presence of malignant plasma cells in the bone marrow at greater or equal to 10 percent or presence of extramedullary or bony plasmacytoma, confirmed with biopsy
  • CRAB features:
    • Calcium elevation: serum calcium greater than 0.25 mmol/L (> 1mg/dL) higher than the upper limit of normal or greater than 2.75 mmol/L (> 11 mg/dL)
    • Renal failure (or kidney failure): creatinine clearance less than 40 mL per minute or serum creatinine greater than 177 μmol/L (> 2 mg/dL)
    • Anemia: hemoglobin concentration of greater than 2 g/dL below the lower limit of normal, or a hemoglobin concentration of less than 10 g/dL
    • Bony lesions: one or more osteolytic lesions found on X-ray, CT scan, or PET‑CT scan
  • Ratio of involved/uninvolved serum free light chain ratio greater than or equal to 100
  • Clonal plasma cells in the bone marrow greater than or equal to 60 percent
  • One or more focal lesions found on MRI studies (measuring a minimum of 5 mm in size)

Dr. Elizabeth O’Donnell:

Testing really does depend a little bit on the stage at which your disease is found. In general, we use a very specific blood test that lets us know that there is clonal protein present. Remember, plasma cells are a type of white blood cell, and they make something called antibodies. We use a test called a serum protein electrophoresis, which is a blood test – an SPEP, we call it – that can tell us the difference between normal, healthy antibody and clone that are made from the plasma cells that we see in MGUS, smoldering, and multiple myeloma…once we identify that there’s a plasma cell disorder, then that can set in place a workup, depending on the amount of clonal, monoclonal, M-protein that we see.

So, sometimes that involves bone imaging. Historically that was a skeletal survey where we took lots of X-rays of your body. Now we have other tests we use. PET scans, CT scans, whole body MRIs. Sometimes it depends where you’re getting your treatment, and also it depends a little bit on your doctor’s degree of suspicion. 

 Lisa Hatfield:

So my myeloma was diagnosed using a scan. An MRI was done of my spine, and that’s when my doctor saw the plasmacytoma in my spine. Further testing indicated that I had something called kappa light chain myeloma. So a lot of patients will have regular tests done, blood work that may show anemia. I think if anybody has an indication of myeloma, further testing should be looked at. There’s something called a light chain assay, a normal CBC, a metabolic panel, a light chain assay was critical in my case, because all my protein levels were coming back normal. Some patients have an elevated level of protein in their blood. Mine was normal. So having all the standard blood work plus having the light chain assay done.

And then really the gold standard for diagnosing myeloma, unfortunately, right now is a bone marrow biopsy. It’s not fun. It’s not horrible. So for patients who are anticipating that, you can get through it. It will be okay. That is the gold standard for diagnosing the myeloma,  the type of myeloma, and then any cytogenetics related to that myeloma that help guide the therapy that you might be getting going forward.

What Are the Beginning Stages of Multiple Myeloma (MM)?

What Are the Beginning Stages of Multiple Myeloma (MM)? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What happens in early stages of multiple myeloma? Watch as early multiple myeloma is explained as expert Dr. Rafael Fonseca details what occurs in the body, and patient Lisa Hatfield shares the symptoms that she experienced early in her myeloma journey.

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What is Multiple Myeloma (MM)

What is Multiple Myeloma (MM)?

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What is Smoldering Myeloma

Transcript:

Dr. Rafael Fonseca:

These cells live predominantly inside the bones in the space we call the bone marrow. They can do a number of things that actually lead to the symptoms and to the clinical presentation. As they grow in the bone marrow, they take some of that real estate. A person may experience fatigue and that is because they have anemia. The myeloma cells are also very characteristic because they can erode into the structure of bones, so destruction of bone is another feature that we see in patients with myeloma. That can be either seen on X-rays or sometimes people will present with symptoms related to bone pain or discomfort with movement or weight bearing. Those are signs that we look for.

Lisa Hatfield:

For me, early on with myeloma, I really had none of the classic symptoms. All  of my blood work was coming back normal. I would see my regular primary care physician every two years. My lab work was coming back normal. Nothing really stood out. I wasn’t anemic. My kidney function was okay. What did stand out over the course of two years was I was experiencing progressively worsening pain in my hip. It felt like kind of a pinched kink pain in my hip to the point where it progressed to the point where I could barely walk was when I finally talked to my primary care doctor. And requested very strongly to have a scan done, and that’s when I was diagnosed with myeloma.

So the primary reason I went in was for the pain to begin with, and my doctor did look at the pain. He tried to assess it several times over the course of two years. But it wasn’t until I had the MRI that showed a large plasmacytoma on my spine when I realized that something was wrong. A couple other signs that I did have looking back now that I complained about to my doctor and I thought were rather curious, I shrunk a little bit. I shrunk in height. My daughters were laughing, and they’re like “Mom, we’re just growing.” But I did shrink in height by about 2-1/2 inches from the compression fractures in my spine and the plasmacytoma that had eaten away at my spine. And then another thing that a lot of people don’t talk about is sometimes people will have foamy urine. We don’t like to talk about body functions.

But it’s important to know that if you experience that, there are proteins that they can find that  are called Bence Jones proteins that are a sign of multiple myeloma. So if you notice anything unique like that – foamy urine, extreme fatigue, anemia in your blood tests,  it’s definitely worth asking your doctor about. And also relentless, persistent pain in your hips, in your back, in your ribs, any of those areas, it’s worth talking to your doctor about just to assess those thoroughly to make sure there’s not something more significant going on.

If myeloma  goes undiagnosed and untreated, the cancer cells can make a patient experience:

  • Lowered immune function due to white cells being crowded out, resulting in frequent infections
  • High levels of protein in the urine and  blood, which may cause kidney damage
  • Build-up of cancer cells in the bones, which can cause bone weakening, bone pain, and bone fractures

What is Multiple Myeloma (MM)?

What is Multiple Myeloma (MM)? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What happens in multiple myeloma? Watch as myeloma expert Dr. Peter Forsberg explains what occurs in the body with myeloma, and patient and Empowerment Lead Lisa Hatfield shares emotions she experienced after her diagnosis and how her outlook changed as she learned about myeloma treatment.

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What Are the Beginning Stages of Multiple Myeloma (MM)

What Are the Beginning Stages of Multiple Myeloma (MM)?

How is Multiple Myeloma Diagnosed and What Testing is Necessary After

How is Multiple Myeloma Staged

Transcript:

Dr. Peter Forsberg: 

So, multiple myeloma is a blood cancer. It comes from cells that live in your bone marrow called plasma cells. They’re part of your immune system. And when they do their job, they help protect you from infections.

They’re antibody-producing cells. In myeloma, unfortunately something changes in those cells, and they begin to grow and live beyond what they normally would. So, myeloma is a disease that results from that and when myeloma is diagnosed, it’s usually because those plasma cells or the antibody they produce has started to cause problems, to cause destructive changes or symptoms. So, that’s multiple myeloma.

Lisa Hatfield:

When I first really understood what myeloma was, I think it’s natural to freak out at first. It’s an incurable blood cancer. You hear the word “incurable” first, and it’s very very scary. Once I digested some of the information I was receiving and understood it’s a type of blood cancer that can be managed nowadays – it’s a little bit different than 20 years ago when it felt more like a death sentence that could be managed – I started to feel a little more confident. I think initially I had to understand that I would probably go through this grief cycle and have a little bit of shock, have some denial, have some anger. But once I accepted that, it became a lot easier. But when I first understood myeloma, it was was scary, it was shocking. And it just took some time to finally settle in and understand it better.

How Can You Engage in Your Myeloma Treatment Decisions?

How Can You Engage in Your Myeloma Treatment Decisions? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Myeloma expert Dr. Benjamin Derman shares advice for partnering with your team when choosing a myeloma therapy, discusses important factors that should be considered, and provides key questions to ask your healthcare team to help you engage in your care. Dr. Derman also reviews research updates from the December 2022 American Society of Hematology (ASH) meeting.

Dr. Benjamin Derman is a hematologist and oncologist specializing in multiple myeloma at the University of Chicago Medicine Comprehensive Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Derman.

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Understanding Myeloma Treatment Types

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Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today we’re going to talk about myeloma treatments, what the options are both current and emerging, and how you can play a role in your care and treatment decisions.  

Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Benjamin Derman. Dr. Derman, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Derman:

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. As you said, my name is Ben Derman. I’m an assistant professor at the University of Chicago. And I specialize in actually, plasma cell disorders, which is mainly multiple myeloma, amyloidosis, Waldenstrom’s. If a plasma cell is the problem, then I address it. So, that’s what I do. And that’s my clinical and research focus as well.  

Katherine:

Excellent. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Before we get into our discussion about available myeloma treatments, let’s talk about emerging therapies. And I know there are many. 

The American Society of Hematology or ASH annual meeting took place in December. What are some of the highlights from that meeting?  

Dr. Derman:

Yeah, ASH is always a very exciting time because it’s when we get to see all the latest and greatest of what’s on the way or what’s already here to stay.  

I think the biggest focus in the myeloma field, if I could really pin it down, was more in the later stages of the disease and focusing on treatments in that setting. We already have two FDA-approved chimeric antigen receptors, or CAR T-cell therapies, in Ide-cel (Abecma), and Cilta-cel (Carvykti). Those are the brand names. And then more recently, we just had a bispecific antibody, which is another type of immune therapy that was approved. But there are actually many under investigation.  

And so, at this ASH we heard a lot. Not only about the target that’s been most popular in this setting, which is something called BCMA or B-cell maturation antigen.  

That’s what the CAR T-cell therapies that I mentioned are going after and the teclistamab (Tecvayli) bispecific antibody that I mentioned.  

But there are a lot of other candidate drugs that are also targeting that same molecule. So, we heard a little bit about – more about those. We’ve been hearing about them pretty much at every conference these days.  

So, there’s a lot of competition in that space. Which is good for patients because ultimately, what we’re trying to figure out is, is one of these better than the others? Or at least, if we have multiple options, there may be different side effect profiles that we have to think about.  

But now as BCMA therapies are getting used more and more, one of the questions is, well, is there any other target that we could go after? And really, the one that was hot at ASH this year was something called GPRC5D, or G-protein coupled receptor 5D. This is expressed pretty strongly in myeloma cells, and not in many other tissues. Maybe the skin, nails, tongue. So, basically, that’s what you want, is you want a target that’s not going to be expressed elsewhere.  

So, there were a couple of different types of therapies that were discussed. One was a CAR T-cell therapy going after GPRC5D, and the others were – there were two bispecific antibodies actually targeting the same GPRC5D. And that’s actually already in addition to another GPRC5D directed bispecific that’s in development.  

So, basically, the idea is that if patients may experience progression on one of these BCMA targeting agents, we’re going to have another target to be going after. And I think that part is really, really exciting.  

And as far as other highlights, I think the other thing is, how do we reduce the toxicity from these drugs? And exploring avenues in order to be able to decrease sort of the inflammatory effects of these drugs, which are important.  

Katherine:

That’s great. It sounds so promising. And all of that information is going to be very helpful as we move through today’s discussion.  

Let’s start with a general overview of treatment options. What types of treatment are offered for myeloma patients?  

Dr. Derman:

Right. So, if you think about at the point where a patient is diagnosed with myeloma, unfortunately, always a tough – always tough news to receive and to share with patients as well, we start to think about dividing treatment into phases. And in part, some of it’s going to depend on, what is the fitness level of a patient in front of me? And not so much age per se, but really fitness level. And what I mean by that is independence in their activities of daily living, their ability to walk, go up flights of stairs, carry out just their daily life.  

So, assuming that all options are on the table, we consider those patients to sort of be what we call stem cell transplant-eligible. 

And that picks a sort of variety of pathways that we can go down. And then the other variety of pathways we can go down are patients where either because of a comorbid conditions, there are other medical problems, or because of their fitness level, a stem cell transplant is not really going to be something that we consider.  

But either way, in either case, we start with something called induction therapy, where we’re aiming to induce a remission. Or induce a response as we typically say more commonly in myeloma.  

And usually that involves a combination of three or now possibly four drugs. And it’s really, really different the way that we treat myeloma than we treat other cancers. And what I mean by that is the traditional thought of using very harsh chemotherapy drugs that make people feel very sick, very ill, lose their hair, those kinds of things. Things that are maybe more outwardly associated with chemotherapy, we don’t see that with myeloma.  

In fact, I often tell patients if they’re fortunate to not have the disease affect them so much at diagnosis, a lot of people may not even know that they’re on treatment. And that can be good and bad, because they don’t know that what you’re going through, which can be challenging in its own right.  

So, really what we use are a combination of therapies. They can be oral drugs, they can be subcutaneous injections under the skin, or infusions. And one of the newer advances is using immunotherapy in myeloma. And this is a little different than it is in solid organ cancers like lung cancer or melanoma where immunotherapy is very popular as well.  

One of the main targets that we go after is something called CD38 on the surface of myeloma cells. And CD38 can be targeted with a type of monoclonal antibody.  

And there are two that are out right now, daratumumab (Darzalex) and isatuximab (Sarclisa). Daratumumab is actually approved to be used in the frontline setting, meaning at diagnosis. And that has really allowed us to augment the already – the backbone that we’ve been already using for quite some time in myeloma.  

Dexamethasone (Decadron), which is a steroid, is typically employed in all of these cases. And then we use drugs that are in the class of what’s called immunomodulatory iMiDs, chiefly lenalidomide (Revlimid) is the main one that we use in oral drug, and that’s been approved since 2006 or so.  

And then bortezomib (Velcade), which is something called the proteasome inhibitor, or its cousin carfilzomib (Kyprolis), can be used as well in the frontline. So, we’re usually combining these three or four drugs together in order to create this sort of symphony that really targets the myeloma from many different aspects.  

Katherine:

Yeah. How do patients know if they have any of these targets, such as CD38?  

Dr. Derman:

So, actually it’s interesting. CD38 is pretty much ubiquitously exposed on the surface and expressed on the surface of myeloma cells. So, it’s in a pathology report. It’s actually one of the ways in which we can identify what makes a plasma cell a plasma cell. But CD38 is one that is essentially ubiquitously expressed.  

And I say that with the idea that that expression may go down if you use these drugs to target that specific – that target. So, as time goes on, it’s not a drug that you may be able to reuse over and over. Or at least there might need to be a nice long break.  

Katherine:

So, obviously there are very – there are a lot of available therapies for myeloma. And I’m wondering what factors might impact treatment decisions. You did mention comorbidities. But what other factors are there?  

Dr. Derman:

Sure. And I think in part, it depends on if we’re talking about induction therapy or in the relapsed refractory setting. Let’s focus on induction therapy, right?  

So, there are some drugs that we’re typically going to employ pretty much universally. For those who are inclined to use that CD38 monoclonal antibody that I mentioned, it pretty much plays well with patients of all walks of life. So, that’s one where I feel really comfortable regardless.  

Lenalidomide is a drug that we don’t necessarily know from the get-go if there’s going to be a patient that’s not going to tolerate it well.  

We might reduce doses up front. But for the most part, that’s another drug that we’re typically going to use. I would say the one exception is for patients who have a simultaneous diagnosis of amyloidosis. And we know that in amyloidosis, lenalidomide may not be as well-tolerated.  

But actually, one of the key decisions that I’m often making in clinic myself is around that drug class that I mentioned earlier called proteasome inhibitors. And I mentioned two different drugs. There’s bortezomib and carfilzomib. And they actually come with very different side effects that I think are important to mention.  

Bortezomib is one that is typically associated with a high rate of numbness and tingling, what we call neuropathy in the fingers and toes. And about 75 percent of patients have been reported in the trials to get this. And most of it is what we call lower grade. But I’m not in the patient’s body, and I don’t know what that – what even a grade 1, which would be the lowest grade, really feels like. And if I have a mechanic, somebody who types for a living, a surgeon, somebody who uses their hands or their or rely on their feet for their day-to-day, that’s a scary prospect, right?  

The flip side is this drug, carfilzomib, is one that does not really cause nearly as much neuropathy, but has been associated with cardiac effects. Heart issues. And so, that can scare people, right? Heart’s important I hear. So, we have to be really careful in how we pick these therapies and talk about it with patients.  

Katherine:

Yeah. When we talk about making treatment decisions, it’s important to choose a therapy with your healthcare team.  

Let’s share some tips for having that conversation. I’d like to start with induction therapy, which is the first line of treatment for patients. What questions should patients ask when choosing therapy early in their diagnosis?   

Dr. Derman:

Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s of course – it’s really the patient priorities I would say. So, one of the things that I like to discuss with patients is, number one, what are the things that they value? And that’s a hard question to ask without any qualifiers.  

So, one of the things that I often ask patients to think about is the – first of all, the number of visits to the medical center. Certain therapies are weekly, certain therapies may actually decrease in frequency overtime. So, if that is something, it’s hard to travel, it’s hard to get someone to take you or to come yourself, or you just don’t want to be in the clinic as much – right? If that’s your number one priority, there are going to be certain therapies that are – or regimens that may be better suited for that patient. If somebody says, “I don’t care how many times I have to come, my goal is the deepest response possible,” you can think about things from that standpoint.  

I mentioned side effects. What are the things that are scary to you personally, as a patient? Some people may look at that neuropathy, as I mentioned, and say “No way. That sounds horrible. I can’t do my job.” Other people would say, “I already have some cardiac issues. I don’t want to take that risk.” Right? So, there are different side effects that we have to take into account.  

Especially when it comes to talking about transplant, there is not just the acute issues that we have to deal with in terms of side effects, but also long-term immunosuppression. Meaning the immune system is suppressed, and there’s a risk of infections, and it’s going to be higher than if you had not gotten a transplant. So, those are at least some of the things that I encourage patients to be thinking about.  

I would also say, on top of that, patients may be approached about clinical trials. And I work at a university where we really value enrolling patients in clinical trials. But that they do come with some inconveniences as well, even though I think they really help to advance the field forward, and sometimes offer patients options they wouldn’t normally be able to get. But there are typically more visits associated with that, more evaluations, more blood draws, more bone marrow biopsies, so those are things that you really have to take into account.  

Katherine:

That’s great advice, Dr. Derman. Unfortunately, relapse is common among myeloma patients. Or it may be that a treatment stops working, and so the person’s myeloma becomes refractory.   

When considering a treatment for relapsed or refractory myeloma, are there different questions that patients should be asking their healthcare team?  

Dr. Derman:

Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question. I think part of it is every patient’s journey with myeloma ends up being quite unique, in part because we don’t have a lot of consensus in terms of how to treat myeloma. So, I may choose one regimen, but the other doc down the street is going to recommend a slightly different one. And now, they all have efficacy. No one’s going to be recommending something that’s not good, right? But what it means is that the journey, the number of therapies, the types of therapies that a patient has received are all going to be quite different than the next.  

So in part, sometimes the past therapies are going to dictate what options are available.  

So, I mentioned some different classes of therapies. The proteasome inhibitors, there’s a certain number of those. The immunomodulatory iMiDs, there’s a certain number of those. The CD38 monoclonal antibodies, there are those. And then there are a few other drug classes as well.   

And if we’re using three or sometimes four drugs at a time for each what we call line of therapy, meaning each time a patient changes treatment – right? Eventually, we’re going to have gone through a number of treatments that now the patient would be – their disease would be resistant to. And so, you don’t really – it’s not really going to be prudent or wise to go back to therapies that didn’t work previously.  

And so, we start mixing and matching, and we come up with regimens that we think are going to hopefully throw a curveball to the myeloma to really try to get rid of it again. That’s what I mean by it’s dictated by past therapy.  

Katherine:

Is research being done to determine the likelihood of relapse and when that might occur?   

Dr. Derman:

Yeah. I mean, we can look at clinical trial data for regimens that have been tested in the relapsed or refractory setting and say, “Okay, we know that this three drug regimen typically gives patients a year before the disease comes back.” Or “This one gives two-and-a-half years or three years.” So, that’s one piece.  

But when you think about who – if you wanted to know ahead of time, “Okay, a patient with high-risk disease, they’re likely not to have as good of a response.” But nobody knows ahead of time the exact amount that they’re going to relapse.  

But one of the things that we focus on, part of the reason that patients get a good amount of blood work when they have myeloma and they’re on therapy is that we have a measure in the blood, or we have several measures in the blood, where we can monitor for relapse. So, we can look at the abnormal proteins, what we call paraproteins in the blood. Either as the M-spike, is what it’s called, or light chains. We look at both of those to see if there are increases in those numbers over time.  

When a patient’s responding, those numbers come down. When a patient is losing response and their disease is progressing, that’s when we start to see those numbers go up. And that’s often an indication that we need to switch treatment, even before a patient develops symptoms related to their myeloma.  

Katherine:

When a patient goes into remission, they’re often placed on a maintenance therapy. What’s the role of maintenance therapy in myeloma care?   

Dr. Derman:

Yeah. So, maintenance, just to specify, is typically something that we call a long duration of usually, less intensive therapy after a more intensive schedule of therapy. So, the most common area that we talk about maintenance is after, let’s say, an autologous stem cell transplant, which came after induction therapy that I mentioned.  

But for patients even who don’t go to a stem cell transplant, they can also go on maintenance therapy. So, when we think about the frontline setting, which in this case would be induction transplant maintenance, the most commonly used drug is a single agent lenalidomide. And that’s been shown to have survival benefits not just in keeping the disease away, but also helping patients live longer. So, maintenance therapy does seem to carry some real importance. One of the things though that we don’t know, is really how long patients need to be on maintenance therapy.  

So, we can all accept I think in the myeloma field, if there’s one thing we can agree on, is that maintenance is important. But the question is, what makes up that maintenance therapy? And then how long? Those are questions we don’t really have the best answers to. And actually, one of the areas that I do quite a bit of research in is about this, how long do patients need to be on therapy?  

So, we recently published some – we presented at ASH this year in 2022, some recent data, at least a preliminary data on patients who had really deep responses, and who we stopped their maintenance therapy after at least one year – but the average was about three-and-a-half years on maintenance therapy – to see if the disease would actually be at risk of coming back.  

And so, what we’re finding is that even in the first year, about 85 percent of patients did not have their disease come back after stopping therapy. So, maintenance therapy is certainly important, but I think we still have to figure out how long patients need to be on that therapy.  

Katherine:

Right. And I can imagine that each person, each patient is different, and some – the maintenance therapy would work really well for them for a long period of time. For others, not necessarily.   

Dr. Derman:

Yeah. I mean, a lot of it comes down to the risk there of the patient’s myeloma. And what I mean by that is – so, somebody has explained to me previously, and I really like the analogy that myelomas are kind of like people. They have different personalities, and they give first impressions. And sometimes your first impression of a myeloma may end up being wrong. You thought it was going to be really hard to treat and you found out that it actually responded pretty nicely to therapy. And other times, it’s the other way around.  

But for the ones that give us a bad first impression, we’re going to be treating those patients typically more aggressively. At least that’s my personal approach. And I take that all the way through from induction, to transplant, even into maintenance therapy where I mentioned already, most people will prescribe a single drug as maintenance therapy. But for those patients, I’m typically going to be prescribing more than that. Or I will continue more aggressive therapy for longer. So, that’s where you have to sort of adapt your therapy in some cases to the patient and their disease characteristics.  

Katherine:

Related to maintenance therapy, we received this question before the program. How do doctors feel about maintenance breaks if you are MRD-negative? Or in a very good response?   

Dr. Derman:

So, I want to be very careful about how I respond to this. Because what I’m going to say is, there’s currently no data to tell us that patients should stop. I mean, in part that’s, you should stop therapy. In part that’s what I’m hoping that we can answer with our study. There’s another large cooperative group study trying to answer this as well, about the duration piece and whether people can stop.  

So, a very good partial response signifies at least a 90 percent reduction in the tumor, in the myeloma, but not 100 percent.  

And there’s also a complete response, which means there’s no detectable disease by conventional methods in the bone marrow or in the blood, but that there can still be microscopic or low levels of cancer cells which we call minimal residual or measurable residual disease. Also called MRD.  

So, MRD negativity is a not so nascent field now, where we are trying to quantify small amounts of cancer cells that may still be present. And the theory is that the presence of residual disease at a small measurable level is what’s ultimately responsible for myeloma relapsing.  

We used to think like, “Oh, a patient is in a complete response. That’s amazing. Let’s clink our champagne glasses. Let’s celebrate.” And there’s still cause for celebration for that. That is a great achievement. But we know that that doesn’t mean we can rest on our laurels. If there is MRD-positive disease, then the disease, it can likely come back. And that’s where suppression of the disease with something like maintenance therapy with lenalidomide is probably helping a lot.  

Katherine:

Yeah. 

Dr. Derman:

But let’s say we have people who don’t have detectable disease, the question is, can they stop? And like I mentioned, we’re trying to answer that question. I would say right now, there’s no recommendation for that. I can’t say in good faith that you should be doing that, unless it’s as part of a clinical trial, which is what we’re hoping to answer. 

Katherine:

Let’s get to a few audience questions, Dr. Derman.   

Craig sent in this question prior to the program. “My primary side effect is fatigue.” And you just mentioned that. “What advice do you have for planning activities through the day?”  

Dr. Derman:

So, this is a very common side effect that we see. In part, it can be from the disease itself. And if that’s the case, it’s going to get better as treatment works. In other cases, it’s due to the treatment itself. And sometimes there are controllable aspects. If it’s a pill, let’s say, where you can control the timing of when you take it. I often tell patients, “Take the drug at night. Because if it makes you tired, at least you’re going to be going to sleep at that point.”  

I do think making sure that you have a good night’s sleep is important. I think making sure that you keep your day-night cycles. So, even if you feel fatigued and you’re at home, it’s not good to be having the windows closed and not being exposed to the outdoors at all. You need light during the day. That’s a normal human need. We do the same thing when patients are in the hospital, and it’s very easy to get your day and night cycles messed up.  

And the other thing too is planning periods of the day when you know that your activity level is going to be, or your energy level is going to be higher, and planning your activities around those times. I think those are at least some important things that we can do.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Lauren wants to know, what is the best way to measure current immunity status? And should we mix COVID vaccine and flu vaccine?  

Dr. Derman:

Mm-hmm. This has become sort of a hot button issue all of the sudden over the last few years. Well, so, as far as immunity status, I wish there was a one good test that we could know.  

I mean, there are some features. Patients who have low white blood cell counts, especially low neutrophil counts, are certainly going to be at higher risk for infection. And that can happen due to myeloma, or more commonly, due to therapies. We can look at immunoglobulin levels, especially the IgG level. Patients who have IgG levels typically less than 400 milligram per deciliter seem to be historically at higher risks of infections. So, something called IVIG, which is an infusion of donated antibodies from plasma from healthy donors, can be used for that.  

There’s been a lot of discussion about, how do we know immune status related to COVID? And there are antibody levels that can be checked, but the truth is nowadays most people have high antibody levels, even if they’re on therapies because of the number of vaccines they received or natural infection. And it may not be a really good surrogate for understanding immunity to COVID. COVID’s outsmarted us time and time again, and probably will continue to do so.  

As far as the vac – I mean vaccines are super important. We do this for all our patients after transplant as well, revaccination them for all of their childhood vaccines. As far as the COVID and flu, I personally – I’m happy and feel fine administering both at the same time. We’ve seen no real safety signals there in my anecdotal experience. But I’m perfectly fine if patients want to split them up. It’s not something that is a 10 out of 10 for me. It’s more that it is as long as they’re getting both, I think that’s really important.  

Katherine:

Yeah. One final question for you. Jennifer asks, “Many new medications for treatment were mentioned. And I’m sure these could be expensive. What are the options to make these available financially for patients who need them?”  

Dr. Derman:

That’s a really good question, and one that we don’t yet have great answers to. As a physician, I don’t receive compensation based on the drugs that I prescribe. And so, I do know – I often have a good sense of what these drugs cost. A lot of the costs that are passed along to patients typically revolve around oral therapies. Even patients who are on Medicare, or sometimes especially patients who are on Medicare. And looking at some of the policy changes that seem to be coming down the pike that include capping Medicare out of pocket costs for medications will be a huge benefit to our myeloma patients.  

It’s important to familiarize yourself with different organizations and the financial support that may be available. Just to name a few, and you’re not limited to these, but The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society does a really great job in providing financial support to patients. But there are definitely other programs that can be contacted for this.  

And also, a lot of the pharmaceutical companies will actually have patient assistance programs as well. Sometimes it’s as simple as asking your provider, and typically they will have their team look into this for you. But we’re fortunate to have a team of pharmacists and my nurses as well who are used to doing this kind of thing. So, it’s important to look into those as well.  

Katherine:

Right. And so, there are lots of resources out there, it’s just asking your healthcare team what they are. Right.  

So, these were all really great questions, and we ask our audience to continue sending in questions to question@powerfulpatients.org. And we’ll work to get them answered on future programs.  

Dr. Derman, what advice do you have for patients? What would you like to leave the audience with?  

Dr Derman:

You know, myeloma is a funny – it’s a funny disease in the sense that patients who were diagnosed 10 years ago, who I still see, they remind me of the action movie where the building is maybe blowing up in the background, blurred out, and they’re running out of the building just in time. And that is because the pace of progress is fast enough in myeloma that we have all these new therapies coming down.  

So, really, I think maintaining hope and thinking about – don’t worry so much about what’s going to happen next. Figure out what you’re going to do now, and make sure that you’re living your best life now, and making sure that you’re doing what you can to treat your disease, I think, and help you feel good during that period too.  

Katherine:

Yeah.  

Dr. Derman:

So, I think it’s a message of hope mainly, that I feel really good about the future of myeloma. There’s a lot of innovation in this space that you can feel good about.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Dr. Derman, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure talking to you.  

Dr. Derman:

Likewise. Thanks so much.  

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners.  

To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us.  

Best Practices for Finding a Myeloma Specialist

Best Practices for Finding a Myeloma Specialist from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Finding a myeloma specialist is imperative to ensure you’re receiving the best care possible. If you’re unsure where to look there are many resources at your disposable. Watch as myeloma patient advocates, Lisa and Sujata discuss their experiences with finding a myeloma specialist and share valuable resources.

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How to Approach the “Alphabet Soup” of Myeloma Treatment


Transcript:

Sujata Dutta:

Lisa what would be your experiences or maybe some of your thoughts around best practices around finding a myeloma specialist? 

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh yeah. That’s also a really good question. So I live in Boise, Idaho, and most of the people in my support group here have stayed local, which is great, but a couple of people… In fact, at the time I was diagnosed, there was a gentleman who has myeloma, he was in Seattle having a stem cell transplant, he chose to go there because they have a much higher volume of… They do a much higher volume of stem cell transplants, and he just felt comfortable having all of that, not just the doctor, we have good doctors here, they have a huge support staff in Seattle where they do stem cell transplants.

So I asked the group, our group leaders, and then the gentleman who was in Seattle, why do people go somewhere else? Why would they do that? Because it’s not quite as comfortable leaving home for a period of time, and he talked a lot about how he felt just it was a second set of eyes to look at his case and he had some other complications with his myeloma. So for me, the best thing that I did is when I was thinking about going to see a specialist, which we did pretty quickly because my spine was quickly deteriorating, we end up calling MD Anderson, but after that, so we were assigned to a specialist. 

 She works at MD Anderson and only sees myeloma patients. After that, I wanted to have my stem cells collected somewhere else, and I ended up calling the International Myeloma Foundation their info line, and they actually can provide a list of specialists in your area or help connect you, especially in times of… Now that COVID is starting to settle down, but during COVID, a lot more specialists were doing Zoom calls or telemedicine visits, so I think that they have a really great… For patients who are looking for a specialist, which I assume you also highly recommend because you’re… You’re in a great area for specialist, I’m not. So I would recommend seeking a second opinion from… Not a second opinion, seeking taking a consultation from a specialist, because as you mentioned, myeloma is so nuanced, it is very complex and complicated.  

Sujata Dutta:

Yeah and again, this highlights a difference. So I live in Minnesota, and I am blessed to be living here, being diagnosed with MM is not a good thing for anyone. But then being in a place where you have all the resources and the support that you need for dealing with something like myeloma is important, and I’m also in a system which is integrated. So obviously in Minnesota, close to Rochester Mayo. My Cancer Center, Frauenshuh Cancer Center is… It’s in St. Louis Park, and we have University of Minnesota, so these three institutes are integrated and patient information can be shared if needed. So when I was diagnosed, I actually did not have to go look for a hematologist or myeloma specialist.

My diagnosis was done by a hematologist in Frauenshuh cancer center, and then she sent my reports to Mayo to the Hematology Department for a second opinion. So for me, I think I’m so fortunate and they did all of this for me, I didn’t have to do that, and then I was anyways is in the care of an MM specialist, which I think is important. And again, reiterating what he just said is like they really know the disease well enough, like I’m not saying that our regular oncologist who don’t know that, but MM is so nuanced.  

If you have the opportunity, I guess you should try and be associated with an mm-specialist, a hematologist, in my case, it was laid out to me on a platter, I should say. I was very fortunate, but for the… I know a lot of people may not have the opportunity to do that, but if you have that, you should definitely try and consider that because it’s quite an important conservation, I think. 

 Lisa Hatfield:

It is. I think you’re right, I know my current oncologist now, my local oncologist, he is awesome, he’s incredible, he’s a great physician, he was a great diagnostician. He’s really good. My husband, I both really like him. He also appreciates that I go somewhere else. And so that is the one thing I know I was terrified. Asking my doctors, what do you think about me seeing a myeloma specialist. I only had one little bit challenging experience when I told one of the doctors I had seen, I want to go to MD Anderson, and he said, Well, you’ll just be a number there and they don’t do much more than we would do here for that piece of my care, that’s probably true.

And even though we have really great care here and a great medical system, and I feel super fortunate with my cancer, my local cancer center there, all of the staff there is excellent. My oncologist is awesome. I still strongly believe that my course might have been different had I not seen a specialist because it is so unique and every patient is so different, and also specialist have access to some treatments that I did not have access to here locally. 

So, I think that that’s super important. I’ll just mention really quick, since we’re talking about specialists, the IMF has their info line, which is… I had to write it down. The phone number is 1-800-452-CURE, which is 2873. So 1800-452-2873, and they can put people… They can direct people to a specialist, and then healthtree.org also has a list if people want to go on, maybe they’re in some dex accelerated insomnia, I guess some night they can go to Healthtree.org, and just… They can click on myeloma, there’s two tabs. Click on myeloma and I just scroll all the way down to patient resources rather than trying to navigate through that. And under patient resources, it says, Find a specialist.

So those are two resources the patients can have, I didn’t look for those, we just called MD Anderson, but I appreciate all your comments, and I think it’s great when people live near a center, I highly recommend going to the bigger center, especially if there’s a myeloma specialist my big fear was just offending my doctors here, and I think some people worry about that too, I’ve talked to other people in our support group.  

Lisa Hatfield:

I don’t know if you have any suggestions for that, Sujata, if you think that… I feel strongly now about people seeing specialists, but at the time I was nervous about offending my doctors…  

Sujata Dutta:

Yeah, and I can relate to that because you build this relationship, you really then you’re going to see them for however long, and so you really want that relationship to be maintained as it is in a good condition, so I totally understand why you would have hesitated even to think about, Oh my gosh, am I going to offend him her by saying, I want to actually see somebody, and I’m glad that your experience was good, meaning like your doctor was supportive of you actually seeing another one. I have also heard of other patients having to navigate difficult conversations, similar to what you share is like, why do you want to see somebody, like Do you not trust us or in that kind of conversations, which I think is a little bit difficult for the patient because we’re going through a lot anyways.

And I always believe like, this is not just for the patient. The entire family goes through the whole process of diagnosis, treatments, all and everything that ensues. So it’s really difficult for the patient and who’s already going through a lot, and I would really hope that the providers, the doctors understand the state of mind, and agree, if the patient wants to see somebody else to support them in that, in that decision-making, as I say, I have been really fortunate and I had a really good experience, but I have, as you said, None of others who have not had as a pleasant of an experience, I’ve also known of patients who do not have those… 

Like you were able to go somewhere else, from Idaho to MD Anderson, I know of some people in some different states who do not have that kind of support, and in fact, they have pretty challenging systems, like there is a person in my support group who lives in Alaska, and for anything, any emergencies, they have to fly down to Seattle.

So, I can only imagine what that must be like to be in that situation where you’re going through so much and then you have to figure out the logistics and the tactical things about how do you reach from point A to point B and then start with whatever procedures so thank you so much for sharing those resources. I think they’re going to be really useful for folks that are listening to this call. Those resources are really, really important. I guess we can also say PEN also has some really amazing resources that folks can leverage as they navigate through this difficult journey. 

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah, I agree with that. And I was going to mention that, so people… When you talk about resources and accessing the resources that that is a big problem, we see that here, because we’re in a more considered more rural area, and so we draw from multiple rural states, our support group does, but also there’s the financial difficulty. So, I’ll just throw that out there too.

Those are two really good resources that I mentioned before, but if people want to reach out to me at PEN or send an email, that would be fine too. I can help direct them to decent resources or some place they could at least start looking for resources because it is really important for people to get that consult from a specialist, I think so… Yeah, I appreciate that.  

What Can I Expect During a Bone Marrow Biopsy?

What Can I Expect During a Bone Marrow Biopsy? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Myeloma patient advocates Lisa and Sujata share their experiences with bone marrow biopsies – what to expect and how to prepare.

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Transcript:

Sujata Dutta:

And then there was one more thing that you spoke… When we started with the conversation, BMB. Let’s talk about BMB the dreaded swear word.  

Lisa Hatfield:

It is next to dex. I think it’s the second. Maybe it’s equal with Dexamethasone, people talk about dex being the worst thing about myeloma, the BMB, the bone marrow biopsy. Yeah. Did you have one? Right when you were diagnosed?  

Sujata Dutta:

Yes, and it wasn’t a pleasant experience. I was obviously, as I mentioned, I had a surgery an emergency surgery, it was pretty… It lasted for six hours and I was wrapped up in all sorts of things, and then I had to have the BMB while I was on an ICU bed, so… Totally not in the best place to start, and it was the first time I was going to have it. So it wasn’t a pleasant experience. It was super painful, they could not sedate me for obvious reasons, because whatever was going on, but post that I had the next BMB, I’ve had a couple… I’m not sure that’s a good thing or a bad thing, the next one, I had it in Mayo and I learned that I could actually be partially sedated and so I wouldn’t feel anything, which was like, Oh my gosh, I thought that was the best discovery mankind had ever made. And ever since then, I’ve always requested for being seated through that process, because otherwise it can be really, really painful, so I don’t know if you want to talk about what the procedure is. I am going to assume some of the folks here have been through this, unfortunately. 

 
Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah, because the bone marrow biopsy is the only way to actually see the myeloma cells, the cancerous plasma cells, it is necessary, it’s also necessary to get it done so they can diagnose the genetic abnormalities, the cytogenetics. But yes, I actually had a little bit different experience. So again, every patient is so different, I prefer not to be sedated because I don’t like sedation, I don’t like the way I feel, I don’t feel good when I have it, so I did have it done and I was… Where I went the first time they didn’t offer sedation, it was, this is 20 minutes, and it wasn’t comfortable.

I will admit that I didn’t like the worst part for me was when they numb the area with lidocaine, they gave you the little shots before they do that, so I’ve had six of them total now, but I’ve had the most recent one. The sixth one I had, they did sedate me and I think it’s conscious sedation, so it’s like you said light sedation, I don’t remember any of it, but I didn’t like it because I had two days of recovery from the anesthesia, so… Yeah, so I think the… 

Going back to somebody who’s maybe anticipating it for two nights straight, I couldn’t sleep, I was so nervous about the bone marrow biopsy, I just thought This is going to be so painful. I had excruciating pain in my spine anyway, ’cause it was collapsing as I was going through, I had radiation first, so the bone marrow biopsy didn’t seem to affect me quite as much the first time, but this last time, it seemed to be a little more uncomfortable, especially afterwards, but from my understanding from the bone marrow biopsy, they go in either with the needle, basically the thick needle or where you go to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale uses as a drill, and I guess that’s supposed to be faster, and a lot of people think it’s more comfortable, go into the bone marrow and try to take some of that bone marrow out… The soft part of the bone out, they actually take two different samples, but I think the most, uncomfortable part if you’re not sedated, I think is that vacuum-type feeling, and then there’s like a pop… And that was super uncomfortable. I thought that was probably the worst part of not sure if it’s pain or discomfort or what, but I do remember that looking back though, now, every time I’ve had one, I always say that wasn’t so bad.  

I remember it, but it wasn’t… I don’t remember it being too bad, so what they do is they will collect enough… They usually have a lab person available as they’re to make sure that they have enough of a sample and the right… The right cells and enough of it, so they usually will only go in once I had one where they had to go back in a second time to try to aspirate some more… The bone marrow, they’ll look at that takes a few days to go through the lab and look at that and see what your genetic abnormalities are with the myeloma cells themselves, and what the volume of cancer cells is in your bone marrow.

But yeah, I just remember, either way, if you’re sedated, you don’t feel it at all while it’s happening, if you’re not sedated, you can feel, especially when they’re numbing it up, the lidocaine shots and that stings, it’s a sting three or four times and takes a little time for it to set in, and then that suction that pop, that’s what was the most uncomfortable, and I think that really the most pain that I felt was the bruise-like pain, the couple of days afterwards, they’re not walking, but just sitting on it is bandaged up really…  

Well, you can’t take a shower for a day, but when I would go to sit on it, it just got bruised, but… Yeah, the bone marrow biopsy, nobody looks forward to those… It’s nice to know that there is something in the works, even mass spec testing, which isn’t quite as sensitive… It’s nice to know that there’s something that works, to maybe look at other ways to test for the myeloma. Yeah, not fun. It’s a necessary thing though that when people are diagnosed with multiple myeloma.  

Sujata Dutta:

That’s absolutely the true statement. I don’t like it at all. I am also anxious before I have my… I’ve had four now, so… And every year I’ll have to have one, so I know that that’s a necessity, as you said, I do feel anxious, but I keep telling myself this is needed to assess overall disease involvement and hopefully the results are better than last year, so I kind of… That’s how I sort of create some positive energy around that experience because it’s not a pleasant experience, and as you said, it does hurt for a couple of days after I actually have… Sometimes it goes on for a week that I have, or discomfort, but again, each to his own people might have different experiences, but I think the more we talk about it, the more we hear other people’s experiences, we might just feel like, Hey, mine was not all that bad, I look at her, him, what they’ve gone through and things like that, or even just thinking like… It’s different, it’s nuance.

Everybody goes through different experiences like you prefer not being seated, I prefer being sedated, so it depends on each one’s experiences, but the bottom line is there are options available, everybody understands, it’s a difficult procedure, everybody understands it’s not pleasant, nobody wants to put the pain through that if they had a choice. 

Right now, we don’t have one, so I think just thinking about in a positive way and embracing it, I guess might just help, it helps me, so I’m hoping that it helps others as well, just changing the perspective a little bit.  

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes, so who does your bone marrow biopsies? I’ve been to… Sometimes a nurse practitioner does them and sometimes an RN does mine, and I know some of our local doctors do them, oncologists do them, what type of professional does your bone marrow biopsies?  

Sujata Dutta:

With Mayo, I’ve had it twice there, they have specialists, they have a whole team that does obviously Mayo, they do like MM treatments, like they have 500 patients doing biopsies every year. That’s what I heard. I had mine there too, so it’s a well-oiled machine, they just have departments for every little thing, so that’s different, but even when I do it with my local cancer center, they have a specialized team, so it’s not the nurses, there’s a specialized team. There’s a different procedure.

Again, it’s different to how Mayo does it. When I do it at my cancer center, they actually do a scan before I have a BMB, and to make sure that they’re going in the right place. Which I thought like Wow, that’s great. Just as a second level of precision, but yes, that’s different to Mayo, but it’s always like a specialist doing it for me.  

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah, and then how often do you have to have those on a regular basis, like annually or just as things change with treatment? 

Sujata Dutta:

Annually. So, only just… Obviously, for my diagnosis I had that and then six months later, and I had a stem cell transplant and I did a BMB prior as well then, a couple of months after I did that again. So that was the only time and it happened more regularly, but since then it’s been like yearly. 

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah Okay. Yeah, the bone marrow biopsy is interesting because I know a lot of… There’s different ways that they test that and now they have a more sensitive test, so everybody has different..That’s the other part of alphabet soup. Some people have something called flow cytometry or NGF or NGS. So anyway, yeah, it’s kind of interesting that everybody will have different ways of going through that or different experiences, so anybody who has questions, you’re welcome to reach out to me at PEN or any of the other resources that are out there.   

How to Approach the “Alphabet Soup” of Myeloma Treatment

How Do I Navigate the Myeloma Alphabet Soup? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

After an initial myeloma diagnosis, you’re plagued with various acronyms referring to treatment, different mutations, and much more. Hear from myeloma patient advocates, Lisa and Sujata, as they break down how they’ve navigated and continue to navigate through what they deem the “alphabet soup” of myeloma treatment.

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Best Practices for Finding a Myeloma Specialist 


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Hi, my name is Lisa Hatfield, and I’m a myeloma patient. I was diagnosed back in 2018. I am an Empowerment Lead at Patient Empowerment Network, and one of the things that we are frequently asked is, What are all of these letters and acronyms when you’re diagnosed with myeloma? So just a nutshell, this is why myeloma is so complicated and confusing based on my story. So, I was diagnosed, like I said back in 2018, I have kappa light chain only myeloma. When I was a newly diagnosed myeloma patient, which is MDMM versus RRMM, which is relapsed/refractory multiple myeloma patient, I have kappa light chain only myeloma. 

 I have…and I’m just going to spew out all of my letters and numbers, I have translocation 11, 14, I have monosomy 13, I don’t have an M spike, which means all of my antibodies are normal, my IgM IGA, IGG are normal. After a surgery and radiation, I went through six months of KRD, followed by another three years of just the R, which is Revlimid, every month I have…in addition to my myeloma labs, I have a CBC, a CMP. Every year I have something called a BMB, bone marrow biopsy. I have a PET CT and MRI every year, and then I do something with my bone marrow biopsy to check for something called MRD status by NGS, which is currently, I’m MRD positive at 10 to the minus 6. So, all of those letters, it’s just a big alphabet soup for people to try to understand myeloma, it gets really, really confusing.

One of the things as a myeloma patient that I recommend to people is the IMF, The International Myeloma Foundation, just to add a few more letters to it, you can look at their website at myeloma.org. They break down each of these phrases and words and letters and acronyms and whatnot. 

So newly diagnosed patients and patients who have had myeloma for a while can understand all of these letters and all of these numbers and what these genetic mutations mean and what the tests mean. So, I guess, Sujata, I know you’ve been through this too. We’re just having conversation. How did you…when you were first diagnosed, I’m curious too, and for other patients, how did you get through all of the letters and things being thrown out at you.  

Sujata Dutta:

Yeah, Lisa, this is funny. So, my name is Sujata Dutta, I’m a board member at the Patient Empowerment Network, and I’m also an MM patient. I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in December of 2019. And Lisa, you summed it up really well. This alphabet soup is actually a real thing. The first time when I got to know about it, I actually, obviously, like many, many folks that I have known that are on this journey, it comes up as a surprise, it just is… For me, it was interception, I can actually say that word and spell it, I think, but at the time when I was diagnosed, I had no clue what the doctor was talking about, I had this massive inflammation of my lymph nodes and I had to have emergency surgery ’cause the lymph nodes had caused damage to my big intestine, and then we did some research, we as in the doctors, and after a week post-that surgery, I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Again, I can say that today, but when they told me about multiple myeloma, I’m like, I have no clue what you’re talking about. They had literally had to dumb it down and say this is a kind of a blood cancer… 

I’m like, oh cancer all right then. So, the alphabet soup is actually a real thing, I do have M-spike Lisa, unlike you. My kappa light chains are fine, but it’s been a long journey and not there yet, so still…my goal is to achieve MRD or remission. I’m not there yet, I still have involvement through my proteins, not so much in the bones, so let’s break that down a little bit, Lisa.

Let’s talk about that alphabet soup and how do you navigate that through as a new patient, I would say not even a new patient, like an existing patient like me, sometimes I’m like baffled, like, “Oh, my gosh, what is this report saying to me?” So, thanks for sharing that resource about IMF but what else…as you started, just think about those early days, weeks when you were diagnosed and all of these terms were thrown at you, how did that feel, and how did you overcome some of it, if not all?

Lisa Hatfield:

That’s a good question. So, I went in to see my, my local oncologist here, after I’d gone through radiation surgery down at MD Anderson because I was going to have my chemo here, and in his office, there was a poster up for a local myeloma support group, which I was not excited about, I thought, Well, maybe I’ll go, but I don’t want to…I already feel down enough that I’ve already overwhelmed enough with my diagnosis, but we just…I called the lady, her name is Sheri, called her up, we talked about myeloma, she had myeloma for seven years, and I was super inspired by that, so we showed up, I had a walker I and walk with a walker because of all the damage to my spine and showed up limping along with my walker, and everyone there was talking about, “Oh, you’re newly diagnosed, what is your M-spike?” That was something new that I hadn’t heard, and I hadn’t had that discussion with my doctor, I didn’t realize at that time, it was because I did not have an M-spike.

So I think, like you said, it’s overwhelming enough to just receive that diagnosis and in my mind, I remember thinking back, Okay, if I talk to a new patient, if I can get through this and make it a few years out, what are the things that were the most confusing to me, and I think understanding the type of myeloma, if I were to… 

If patients were to ask me, understanding the type of myeloma patient has, the genetic mutations and understanding what their M-spike is or is not, if they are just…if they’re a light chain, only if they have light chain only disease. Those would be the things I think, because it is so confusing to patients in them, I think as they go along, maybe they can ask their team, “Well, what does that mean? Or what do those letters mean?” Yeah, it’s okay to ask those questions.  

Sujata Dutta:

Absolutely. Ask as many questions as you can, you’re encouraged as a patient to ask questions or at least I was. I think what is also important to note is like with MM, it’s an individual, it’s a very individualized sort of a disease, so although we put it under the bucket of multiple myeloma, everybody experiences it differently, they even have reactions to medication very different, like just yesterday I was talking to somebody in my support group and they had a really different experience with one of the drugs that I take regularly, daratumumab (Darzalex) every four weeks. She just had the first dose and it was such a bad reaction, she ended up in ER.

So not scaring anybody, I’m just saying everybody has different reactions, somebody might take to some medication really well versus others may not…and just between the two of us, we have different types, you don’t have that, and so there are these nuances, which I think it’s just important to acknowledge, there’s nothing to be scared of…it’s just acknowledging the difference of how multiple myeloma works versus some other cancers maybe…I think it’s important. And you brought up a good point about trying to understand the labs, we don’t have to be experts. 

I don’t think I want to be an expert. I have folks that are experts that will take care of me, but just so that I understand the basics of it, and then I’m able to ask questions for my own self, like educating myself. 

Will Myeloma Patients Need Fewer Biopsies in the Future?

Will Myeloma Patients Need Fewer Biopsies in the Future? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Is it possible multiple myeloma patients will need fewer biopsies in the future? Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from the Mayo Clinic explains bone marrow biopsies, myeloma detection, and potential tests in development.

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What Treatments Are There for Myeloma Patients Who Relapse After CAR T


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, so for myeloma patients, even though our insurance companies, sometimes we have to argue with them a little bit as if we’re beating down doors to get a bone marrow biopsy, nobody loves those, I’m not sure why insurance companies think we would actually want that. But what do you see in the future, I know there’s talk about mass spectrometry. Every myeloma patient would love to hear the words, you’ll never have to have another bone marrow biopsy.

Do you see a future in that and some of these newer tests that are coming out?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Sure, I think that’s absolutely important to know because…yes, that’s the bane of our existence, unfortunately, disease primarily lives inside the bone marrow, so to get the true information…that’s where you go. So there are some tests that are being developed or researched, patients may have heard about what’s being termed, the liquid biopsy or taking a blood sample to identify plasma cells or disease, there’s a lot of research going on around it. But, unfortunately, it has not panned out yet, because by nature, plasma cells do not circulate in the blood, or if they circulate, it’s a very, very small amount, so it’s hard to pick it up from the blood and do the tests on it. But there’s a lot of research going on for it to get the plasma cells, get the FISH testing, and all the genetic testing from the plan.

So stay tuned, hopefully we’ll get in that direction. What you also mentioned, a test that’s been developed and done at Mayo Clinic is what’s called maspect or looking at these proteins, these M-spikes, these light chains, the IgGs, etcetera. Looking at them at a molecular level and separating them based on their weight, because IgG kappa, for example, from one patient may be different from the IgG kappa that came from a different patient, but they can be separated out based on the weight, based on the molecular weight… on the size, and that can sometimes be used that how the test has been developed to use that property to identify and almost catalog and tabulate and follow that patient’s protein, so that we can hopefully collect or detect a recurrence sooner, note a deeper response to the treatment.

And in the future, hopefully use that depth of response and that earlier recurrence as…or earlier detection of the protein as a survivable matter, recurrence. I still think that it’s two different things, one is to look at the protein and note it at a deeper level to know whether the patients responded or relapsing, but so far, if you want to do those rotation testing, the FISH testing, and look at some of the characteristics of the myeloma, unfortunately, we do have to go to the bone marrow, but down the road, I’m hoping that those liquid biopsies and the blood tests will hopefully make it happen.

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, that would be music to my ears, even fewer biopsies would be great, so that would be awesome.

How Are Myeloma Therapies and Clinical Trials Becoming More Accessible?

How Are Myeloma Therapies and Clinical Trials Becoming More Accessible? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

For underrepresented multiple myeloma patients, what actions are being taken to improve access to care? Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from the Mayo Clinic explains factors that can limit myeloma care access and shares resources that can help patients improve their access. 

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Is There a Link Between Myeloma and Dental Health?


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

So the question is, myeloma treatment is expensive, with quadruplet therapy options, what measures are being taken that can help patients to have equal access, and I think that we can also add clinical trials to that too. Is there anything being done, or how can you encourage patrons to appeal access, whether it’s the drugs themselves or clinical trials?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So absolutely, I think, Lisa, that’s an extremely important question as I mentioned, this area of healthcare disparity in healthcare, inequity, for example, is something I’ve spent a lot of time doing my research my career and publishing in this area. Unfortunately, in today’s day and age, we still have a lot of these disparities that exist, patients may not get access to the right drug or the  right time because of their geographical region, because of their insurance, their education status, socioeconomic status, and sometimes even in other…situations being similar, just their race and ethnicity. Age is an important factor.

Also, I would say there…I think the important part is that it is much more knowledge, awareness and intent to do something about it now, there’s, for example, in the forthcoming clinical trial that should be opening for really diagnosed patients across the country, soon through NCI and stab where the trial has been specifically designed to do it in as close to real world setting as possible, and when we were writing that child, there’s a specific racial, ethnic minority accrual plan that we are writing around it, and that’s not…I would say just that trial, there are trials that are now specifically going in trying to enroll patients as much as possible from the real world and all walks of life. 

And that’s it. I think the bigger question comes, like you started the question by asking the trials are there…we are trying to make a difference for trying to make some changes, changing the inclusion criteria so that patients would even now our accounts can go in, etcetera, etcetera. What about the drugs that are already available at quadruplet therapy, which is a pretty, I would say, demanding approach, because the patient needs to get multiple drugs multiple times, frequent visits back and forth to the clinic, co-payments office with its labs, etcetera. It’s not easy.

Unfortunately, there are certain groups within our society that would have difficulty getting those access, but there are lots of resources that patients and caregivers can access, and hopefully those…help share some of the burden. These are either from the pharma companies or they could be from foundations or societies like the The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society and several other such concerns whose goal is to try and provide an equitable and just access to the drugs and how to get the most evidence-based treatment to every single patient.

So there are quite a few of these efforts in our practice, what we strongly recommend is that the patients, of course, get this knowledge and information through support groups, through their physicians, but also searching for this information online or in a lot of the larger institutions, meeting with the social worker frequently helps gain access to our information about a lot of these resources. So I think a lot of work has been done there, but to bring it down to an individual patient’s level, how can I as a patient get access to something…

I think the patients will have to ask those questions either from their physician, their care team, a social worker, online resources, support groups, that information is out there, we are trying our best to get it to patients that hopefully patients can seek out some of that as well. 

What Treatments Are There for Myeloma Patients Who Relapse After CAR T?

What Treatments Are There for Myeloma Patients Who Relapse After CAR T? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Do multiple myeloma patients who relapse after CAR T have other treatment options? Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from the Mayo Clinic explains patients who typically receive CAR T-cell therapy and options for those who relapse after CAR-T therapy.

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Is There a Link Between Myeloma and Dental Health?


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

So this next question has to do with the sequencing of treatments, which, again, speaks to the fact that it’s super important to see a myeloma specialist, but the question is what treatments are available for myeloma patients who relapse after CAR T?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Very, very important question, and unfortunately a tough situation that we are dealing with because CAR T initially has been used for later lines of therapy as it is currently FDA-approved. With time, hopefully it will start making it may sooner in the treatment also, but when a person…when a patient has had treatment with CAR T, generally, they have already had treatment with most of the standard available drugs prior to CAR T, because the way CAR T is currently approved is the patient has to have at least four prior lines of therapy, and generally, at least in the U.S. system, with the first three to four regimens or lines of therapy, we’ve already seen and exhausted most of the available drugs.

So you can imagine most CAR T, there is less drug availability that the patient has not had before or may not be resistant to, but if the CAR-T response lasted long enough, sometimes we are recycling some of the drugs after previously used, and the patient may respond to them again.

Another thing to think about in that place is from my standpoint, clinical trials are extremely important and patients must seek clinical trial options, as you mentioned, again, important to see a specialized myeloma center, but one of the drugs that was approved in 2022 bispecific antibody, teclistamab (Tecvayli), and there are some other related by specific antibodies which have actually shown some benefit despite the fact that they also target BCMA, which CAR T targets, but patients who had prior BCMA therapy still had a very good response rate to, for example, teclistamab or some other…bispecific antibodies in clinical trials, so I don’t say that everybody who’s been treated with a BCMA CAR T should go immediately to a BCMA and bispecific may not be the best option in all cases.

But sometimes recycling older drugs in certain different combinations, clinical trials or options promising options like bispecific antibodies. We do have more options today than even what we had a year ago for patients who are progressing after CAR T-cell therapy. 

Myeloma Expert Gives an Overview of Novel Therapies

Myeloma Expert Gives an Overview of Novel Therapies from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What novel multiple myeloma therapies are available for patients? Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from the Mayo Clinic shares an overview of novel therapies of CAR T-cell therapy, monoclonal antibodies, bispecifics, and immunomodulators and discusses therapies currently in rapid development.

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Is There a Link Between Myeloma and Dental Health?


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

We are going to jump right into a discussion about some of the novel therapies that there is much buzz about right now, and it’s kind of an alphabet soup these novel therapies. I actually was trying to digest all of this information and divide it into the general categories.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but we have monoclonal antibodies, we have bispecific antibodies like the CAR-T therapies, and they target different things. We have BCMA, we have GPRC5D, FcRH5, we have things called antibody drug conjugates and cell mods. So, Dr. Ailawadhi, if you can just give us kind of a broad overview of these therapies and how they may be used to harness our immune system, and how they come into play when you’re treating your patients, how and when they come into play when treating your patients.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Surely, so I think thanks a lot for bringing up that discussion, this is extremely important, and I think it’s most important because if a myeloma patient goes online and wants to search for information or research, these things start coming up this term start coming up. So it’s extremely important for a knowledgeable and empowered patient to learn about these, understand them, so that they are able to digest that information. And I should mention that a lot of what we’ll talk about about these particular treatments may not be applicable to newly diagnosed patients or a recently diagnosed patient, but this is important enough and exciting enough that I would want every single patient to pick up this information. Learn it hopefully, and maybe park it for now somewhere, so that hopefully down the road it becomes important and handy.

So you asked about monoclonals, bispecific, CAR-Ts, cell mols, etcetera. Let’s take a step back, let’s think about these as strategies to target myeloma. Myeloma treatment is going through a change where immunotherapy and harnessing the body’s own immune system is becoming extremely important, and when we do that, the immunotherapy is typically very targeted, so what these drugs these agents, these terms, this alphabet soup is doing is it is targeting specific markers on the myeloma cell on the plasma cell.

For example, one of the markers is CD38. There is a monoclonal antibody. There are actually two monoclonal antibodies. Daratumumab (Darzalex), rituximab (Rituxan) that are FDA-approved, but there are other ways of targeting CD38, for example, CD38 targeting CAR-T cells, CD38 targeting antibody drug conjugates, etcetera. So CD38 is one important part. A very, very, very important thing in the past one year or a year-and-a-half has been what’s called B-C-M-A, B cell maturation antigen. BCMA is another target on plasma cells. Very effective, very specific.

So there are many, many drugs that are available and becoming available to target BCMA. Right now, there are three drugs that are FDA-approved that can target BCMA. Two of them are CAR-T cells, a particular way of going after BCMA in which the body’s own T cells are collected. These are not stem cells, these are T cells, T lymphocytes, these T cells are collected, they are actually genetically modified to go and fight against the BCMA, and then those modified T cells are multiplied in the lab and given to the person as a drug, they go and seek the plasma cells because of BCMA kill them harnessing the body’s immune system.

So there are two CAR-T cells against BCMA, one called ide-cel (Abecma) and one called cilta-cel (Avekti). There has recently been available a bispecific antibody against BCMA, we call it bispecific because it connects to BCMA from one end and from a second it connects to the body’s T cells again, bring the T cells close to the plasma cells to kill them. Then bispecific antibodies called teclistamab (Tecvayli). And until recently there was another drug available against BCMA which was what’s called an antibody drug conjugate. This drug is called belantamab (Blenrep) for the timing, belantamab has been removed or withdrawn from the market in the U.S., but there are ongoing clinical trials and down the road, it may come back again.

Now, antibody drug conjugate is another way of targeting something in which there is a seeker for the BCMA in this case, and it has a payload of some kind of a toxin, so that when the drug connects to the plasma cell through the BCMA in this case, that toxin is released, it can kill the cell, so either we harness the body’s immune cells, the T cells by CAR-T or bispecific, or we kill the cell by releasing a toxic payload from a drug, antibody drug conjugate, these are all different methods of targeting the myeloma cell. So I talked to you about monoclonal bispecific CAR-T and ADC as different strategies, CD38 and BCMA, some of these strategies are available, but there are other targets which are very exciting and new drugs are being developed against them, two of the very interesting targets there one is called GPRC5D, and the other is FcRH5.

These GPR5CD or FcRH5 are two different targets on myeloma cells. No drugs are currently FDA-approved, but they are being developed very rapidly, and we have a couple of extremely promising agents which will be coming down the pipe. And you also mentioned something called cell mods. Cell mods are some newer drugs in the family of what’s called IMiDs or immunomodulators, in which our patients may be aware of thalidomide (Thalomid), lenalidomide (Revlimid), and pomalidomide (Pomalyst). The cell mods are kind of the same family, and there are a couple of them that are also being developed.

So why is this important for everybody, whether they are newly diagnosed or relapsed or long-term survivor with myeloma, because this tells you that not only are we getting newer drugs in the same classes, we are also getting brand new classes of drugs, and you can imagine that means that those brand new strategies are ways to target the plasma cell, we know cancer cells are smart and they develop invasive mechanisms to become resistant to drugs, but every time something gets resistant if we have a brand new mechanism to go against the disease, but that’s exciting because that’s why we are seeing deeper responses, even in very heavily pre-treated patients, because we are using newer specific, relatively safe, convenient strategies to going after the plasma cell.

I know that was a lot of information, but I hope this helps our listeners learn a little bit about what you rightly said is an alphabet soup, but I would like us to think about it as an exciting time for being a myeloma doctor, and certainly a very hopeful situation for all our patients. 

Are Myeloma Therapies Showing Deeper Responses?

Are Myeloma Therapies Showing Deeper Responses? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Are multiple myeloma patients showing deeper responses to therapies? Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from the Mayo Clinic discusses treatment response and the potential for a myeloma cure.

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What Treatments Are There for Myeloma Patients Who Relapse After CAR T


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

And one question comes to mind that I have heard from other myeloma patients, and you mentioned that we are seeing deep responses, or they’re seeing deep responses in clinical trials for some of these in refractory relapsed patients. Do you think that bringing these…do you think it’s possible to bring some of these therapies to the forefront of myeloma care, maybe an induction therapy or after first relapse, and if so, do you think that that could lead to even deeper responses in those patients because their immune system isn’t quite so tired and potentially cure?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Again, Lisa, that is such an important and such a spot-on question that you’ve asked because absolutely, you can imagine, if we are thinking of harnessing the body’s immune system, the T cells, but we’re talking about patients who have had five, six, seven, then, prior lines of therapy. But that immune system is also a little exhausted, a little tired, but if you were to use the immune system of a newly diagnosed patient, patient who’s not been created that much…well, those T cells are going to be way more robust.

Whether we use a CAR-T kind of strategy where we remove the T cells, train them and put them back, or we use a bispecific kind of strategy where we put in a drug that pulls the T cells closer to the myeloma cells and kills them using these smart thoughtful strategies which are not just dumb drugs that go in and kill everything, these are smart targeted drugs, using them early on in the treatment paradigm will certainly be more beneficial.

In fact, there is some data showing up where some of these strategies like CAR-T cell are being used sooner in the treatment paradigm. But again, as drug development goes, We first want to make sure it is safe, it is effective, and typically the starting point is patients who have exhausted other options, but very soon we will be seeing all of these strategies, and in fact, some of these strategies combined with each other coming in, early lines of therapy and hopefully providing excellent, deep responses, and you mentioned that term that has been very invasive for us cure, I don’t know if we are…

So we are not there yet. I don’t know how long it’ll take us to get there, but there is certainly much more hope today for getting to that cure than it was before.