PODCAST: Myeloma Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi

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In this START HERE myeloma program, Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from Mayo Clinic spotlights priorities in the rapidly expanding myeloma treatment landscape. Watch as Dr. Ailawadhi addresses pressing questions submitted by patients and families, providing invaluable guidance and reassurance in navigating the complexities of myeloma care.

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Transcript:

Lisa Hatifield:

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program, where we bridge the expert and patient voice to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions of our healthcare teams. The world is complicated, but understanding your multiple myeloma doesn’t have to be. The goal is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of myeloma treatment and survivorship.

Joining me today is Dr. Ailawadhi, back by popular demand. Dr. Ailawadhi is a respected multiple myeloma expert from Mayo Clinic. Dr. Ailawadhi’s career focus includes the treatment of plasma cell disorders like myeloma and understanding the epidemiology and pathophysiology of this disorder. It’s always such a pleasure having you, Dr. Ailawadhi. I’m really excited you’re joining us again. So thank you for joining us.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

And thanks a lot for having me, Lisa. This is excellent. I look forward to this next iteration of the Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. So before we dive into today’s discussion, please take a moment to download the program resource guide using the QR code. This guide contains pertinent information to guide you both before and after the program. And this program will provide you with a comprehensive update on the latest myeloma news and its implications for you and your family. Following that, we’ll launch into some questions that we have received from you.

So let’s start here. Dr. Ailawadhi, at this juncture in myeloma history, we are witnessing unprecedented activity, a surge of new treatment options, and a wealth of insights. Today, we are privileged to have your expertise to help us decipher these developments and shed light on the advancements shaping the landscape of myeloma care. First, we’re going to get a high-level update from Dr. Ailawadhi on what the latest myeloma news means for you and your family. And then we’re going to talk about some questions that you’ve sent in. So let’s get started with the high-level update, Dr. Ailawadhi. Can you speak to the latest news and priorities in the rapidly expanding myeloma treatment landscape?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Excellent. I think, Lisa, that’s an excellent and important question. Because as you rightly mentioned, there is such a large amount of data that is coming through for myeloma all the time. I mean, it’s almost, we kind of talk about the fact that every time you turn your shoulder or look over your shoulder, there is a new drug approved. So I can imagine this can be very overwhelming. So what I’ll say is that in my opinion, there are some categories of new data that are pertinent and important for our patients. 

The two or three out of them that come to my mind, one is what’s called CELMoDs, or there are a couple of agents there called iberdomide, mezigdomide. These are showing some interesting data. Important to keep in mind that they are somewhat related to the immunomodulatory drugs lenalidomide (Revlimid), pomalidomide (Pomalyst), but they’re showing benefit in patients who have had len and pom before and have progressed. So exciting stuff there.

We’re also seeing some interesting data about newer CAR Ts and bispecific antibodies. They are all coming up with some benefits in some cases. I think it’s important to keep in mind that the bispecifics are landing at the 60 to 70 percent response rate, and CAR Ts are typically landing at the 80 to 90 percent response rate, but there are more agents expected.

There are also some newer bispecifics in different classes, like one of them is called cevostamab, which is an FcRH5 inhibitor or targeting bispecific. So newer bispecific, not just more of the same category. And there has also been recent data about Bcl-2 inhibitors, which have been traditionally used for patients with translocation 11;14.

There have been some negative data, negative as in trials, which did not pan out with a drug called venetoclax (Venclexta), but there are two other drugs that had some recent data shown from different companies, which were exciting information. So in my mind, those are kind of the broad new drug categories. There is another, a couple of other quick things that I’ll mention.

One is we’re getting more and more information about real world experience with these new drugs. It’s good to see that CAR Ts are panning out very similar in the real world as they are in clinical trials. We’re also seeing that the side effect profile of a lot of these newer novel immunotherapy drugs is similar as seen in the clinical trials.

Racial ethnic disparities are something which are very close to my heart, and there is more and more information coming out in that. Unfortunately, highlighting the disparities more still rather than yet coming up with solutions. And I think the last thing that I feel which has been recent has been at the American Society of Hematology meeting in 2023, which was in December in San Diego.

One of the myeloma studies actually became a plenary session presentation, which is a pretty big deal for any disease area. So one thing is that it gets highlighted. Secondly, it was a combination of a regimen called isatuximab-irfc (Sarclisa) with carfilzomib (Kyprolis), lenalidomide, and dexamethasone (Decadron) in newly diagnosed patients.

It’s a randomized trial, Phase III, which was presented. I think the important part is we saw unprecedented deep responses and patients in much, much higher numbers than before becoming MRD-negative. So very deep responses. So these are kind of some very broad, but lots of highlights that I talked about.

Lisa Hatfield:  

All right. Thank you. So can you also talk about some of the newer tools for myeloma progression and relapse and what patients might want to know about that? And in particular, maybe talk a bit about MRD testing and the role of MRD testing for patients who relapse.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Excellent question. Lisa, I think the first and foremost thing an important part for our patients to learn is what are their “tumor markers,” for the, or disease markers for myeloma. We can follow myeloma by either the M spike or monoclonal protein, by light chains, by monoclonal protein in the urine or blood. And it’s important to keep that in mind because every now and then we’ll see patients who say, Hey, my ratio changed. So I’m progressing. Well, that comes after the light chains change. So it’s important to understand the role of these things.

So M spike in the urine, M spike in the serum and light chains. One of them is typically the marker for a patient. Now the MRD status or minimal residual disease that is looking for one cell, one myeloma cell from amongst 100,000 cells in the bone marrow. So it is looking at a very deep level. The most important benefit of MRD testing right now is to understand that if a patient turns MRD negative, then they have a superior outcome. Their prognosis is better. Their progression free survival, or the time before their disease comes back is longer. 

But when a patient is MRD-negative and is being followed or maintenance or whatever, if the bone marrow turns MRD-positive, then that might be the sign that the disease might be coming back. Right now, we do not keep switching drugs to get to MRD-negative. That is not the goal of treatment. The way to think about it is we want to get to MRD-negative, but that means it’s incumbent upon us to try and pick a regimen that is more likely to get to MRD-negative. That’s the way to think about it.

Let’s pick a regimen more likely to get us into MRD-negative and hope that we get to MRD-negative. We see every now and then that the patients keep switching regimens just to get to MRD-negative. That’s not the way to go because you’re just using up options too quickly, too fast. A common question that patients ask is, well, does that mean I need to get annual bone marrow biopsies and MRD testing? Probably not.

That’s too much testing. So what I suggest is that once somebody has turned MRD-negative, it’s important to keep an eye on every single thing. Now, change in any of the routine labs, imaging, new symptoms, etcetera. That’s when we switch to the bone marrow again and see if the patient has turned MRD-positive. There are clinical trials going on right now which are stopping drugs based on repeat MRD negativity or starting drugs on MRD positivity. But those are clinical trial questions.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So along those same lines, since you’re a Mayo physician, I’m curious about the mass spec testing. So if a patient say has been MRD-negative for some time, still wants to monitor at a deeper level, even though it’s not commercialized yet, do you see a role for mass spec testing on a regular basis in the future and being rolled out to community facilities also?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely, Lisa. I did not specifically bring it up because mass spec is not, like you rightly said, is not yet commercially available. Now we’re doing mass spec quite frequently at Mayo Clinic. Basically mass spec is taking up a blood sample. Important to keep in mind, it’s not a bone marrow test, it’s a blood test, but it looks for those abnormal proteins based on the protein weight at a much, much lower level. Our SPEP or serum protein electrophoresis does not pick up very small quantities of the protein mass spec does. So in an essence, the mass spec, if somebody is negative on that, turning mass spec negative to mass spec positive may be an earlier sign of the disease coming back rather than the SPEP yet turning positive. But as you rightly said, it is not yet commercially available. I do see the benefit of it.

There is more and more data coming in favor of it, and there was data that was also at ASH. So I do see that in the future we’ll be able to most likely have it available more widely. At this point, it is just a blood test to attempt to check the disease level at a much deeper level and be able to notice if the disease is progressing sooner than our currently available tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you. And as a patient, I like to have one more data point that they can get from my blood, not from my bone marrow to assess the disease. So thank you for explaining that. Regarding survivorship, patients are living longer with myeloma in general because of the novel therapies that have come out in the past few years. So how is myeloma survivorship evolving, and what’s different now than it was five or 10 years ago in terms of treatment planning?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Yeah, I think it’s very important to keep that in mind. When I see a newly diagnosed patient, I’m not just telling them, “Hey, this is your induction therapy, and your transplant is the goal.’ We’re trying our best to decide that patient’s life journey with myeloma over the next 10, 15 and hopefully more years. So we’re trying to pick and choose the regimen that is most likely going to help the patient the most today and most likely will give a longer duration of the response. So when you say survivorship, that also very importantly brings up the point that patients are living with myeloma longer. We have to manage their health overall. So looking for any side effects from treatment, managing them very well so the patient is able to stay on the treatment and maintain good quality of life.

There are actually, are clinical trials looking at stopping treatment when there is a very deep, prolonged response. Again, going towards survivorship and giving the patient’s quality of life. There is looking for other cancers. In fact, I had a patient in the clinic and we were talking about just myeloma in general and I was telling them, “Okay, please remember you may not want to do a colonoscopy, but you already have one myeloma cancer diagnosis. The risk of subsequent cancers is always there in any cancer patient.” So that was a male person. So I said, “Okay, please do not miss your colonoscopy. Please do not miss your prostate screening and whatever is age-appropriate must be done.” So managing everything because myeloma is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.

We want to make sure that we pace ourselves well so we manage all the symptoms, all the signs. Bone health becomes much, much more important because the same bone structure is now going to carry us longer and many more years. And as you rightly said, planning, which treatment comes first, which comes next, when does CAR T come? It’s not that everybody must get CAR T today. That’s not the answer. So what to use when becomes extremely more important.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. And thank you, Dr. Ailawadhi, for that important reminder. All of you watching, get your regular screenings, like he said, prostate cancer, mammograms, colonoscopies, get it done. So thank you for that.

One of the things that comes up with that regular, not regular screening, but monitoring after certain therapies for future malignancies, there’s been some discussions about post-CAR T, particularly with T-cell malignancies and monitoring for that. Can you just give a little description of that and any concerns that you have with that or any encouragement you have regarding that and whether that weighs into your treatment options that you give to patients when they are asking about CAR T therapy?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely. Extremely important question, Lisa. This really had a lot of discussion going on. It’s been going on for the past few months now. Okay. So first let’s explain the landscape. The FDA reviewed CAR T-cell treatment because of the fact that there were about 19 T-cell malignancies noted in several thousand patients.

Out of those 19 cases of T-cell malignancies, there was one case of multiple myeloma to the best of my knowledge. Now, risk of subsequent cancers is something, unfortunately, every cancer patient lives with, but in myeloma, we have known about that, especially from our historical knowledge of second malignancies with lenalidomide-based maintenance therapy post-transplant. So subsequent malignancies have always been a risk. There is some risk that is being talked about with CAR T, but frankly speaking, the way I look at it, the risk is significantly lesser than the potential benefit.

Because remember when these CAR T therapies, the two agents got approved in myeloma, they were approved in a situation that there was no standard therapy. And we saw somewhere about 70, 75 percent response rate with one of them and about 98 percent response rate with the other one. So in a setting where there was nothing, you can see the degree of benefit. And the risk of second malignancies is relatively small. So we must discuss this.

A patient must be aware of it, but I think the benefit is way more than the risk. So we document, we discuss, we have specific documentation that we do and specific information that we share with patients, but I think still the benefit is significantly more than the risk.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you so much for explaining that. And for any of you out there watching this, Dr. Ailawadhi is a myeloma specialist, and I highly encourage anybody who is looking at CAR T therapy or even for a first consult for myeloma, seek out even one consult from a myeloma specialist. It is so important in trying to understand these therapies and any fears you may have regarding those therapies and the risks of that. So really appreciate that, Dr. Ailawadhi. Thank you. So I think it’s time now to start answering questions from patients that we received from all of you in the audience.

Please remember, this is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your medical team. And we are going to jump right in, Dr. Ailawadhi. We have a lot of questions from patients here and I’ll just start with the first one. This patient is asking, my M spike keeps rising in spite of chemo. What can I do?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Very important question, Lisa. Every patient must understand what their disease marker is. This patient is asking about the M spike, which is the monoclonal spike, whether it’s in the blood or in the urine. And if the M spike is continuing to increase and there is a significant increase, significant is defined by at least 25 percent from the nadir or from the bottom most point with the, at least a absolute increase of 0.5 gram per deciliter. So half a gram per deciliter. So we want a 25 percent increase, but we also want at least 0.5 gram per deciliter.

So if somebody had an M spike of one at their best point, then the increase to 1.5 is significant. If somebody had the M spike of 0.2, then it’s not the 25 percent increase, it’s the 0.5 that must happen. So they hit 0.7 and that’s a significant increase. So that’s how we think about M spike, 25 percent with an absolute of at least 0.5 gram per deciliter.

If that is indeed happening, this would be considered a biochemical progression. And at that point, it should be considered to switch around the treatment because we don’t want the disease to grow to the point that there are actually symptoms showing up or organ damage happening. We want to be able to capture the disease progression sooner and act upon it.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Do you have any recommendations for people who, as we might have some patients watching this, who are light chain only? Any guidelines on if those numbers are rising?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

That’s an excellent question too. So if somebody has light chains as their marker, we are looking at an increase in the involved serum free light chain. So if somebody has kappa as their marker, the kappa is going up, or if they have lambda as the marker, the lambda is going up. Typically, if both of them go up, that is not disease progression. That could be coming from kidney dysfunction. Somebody is dehydrated and they get labs checked. Both kappa and lambda might be elevated. Again, a 25 percent increase in the absolute. But at the same time, we are also looking at at least 10 milligram per deciliter change.

So if somebody had a light chain of two milligram per deciliter, if it goes to 12, that might be a significant change. But I can say that light chains are a little bit more volatile and they do get affected by our fluid status. So if I ever notice a patient with a light chain increase, I’m more likely to repeat the test very soon, maybe even at a couple of days, one week interval, just to make sure that there is a trend rather than just a fluctuating light chain.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that information.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

And I should maybe, very quickly add, we do not check light chains in the urine. Light chains should be checked in the blood. Urine light chains are very nonspecific and there’s no need to test them.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. That’s helpful also. So patients don’t have to walk around with their big orange jugs full of fluids. So thank you. All right. This might be a complicated question to answer. But in general terms, for those who relapse for the first time, what are the best treatment options?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

I think that’s a very important, and I can imagine a scary situation. So somebody who relapses in general, not just even the first time, the factors that are taken into account for deciding what treatment they should get, there are broadly three categories of factors. Patient factors deciding what’s the age, what’s the other comorbidities, are they diabetic, are they heart disease, kidney dysfunction, because those things go into the decision of what may or may not be given. So patient factors.

Also importantly, how close are you to your treatment center? Can you come in for infusion or injection drugs time? And again, can you prefer or do you prefer oral drugs only? Et cetera. Those things become important. Then that…so that’s patient factors and disease factors. How fast is the progression? Is it high-risk disease, standard risk disease? Is it biochemical progression like the previous person asked?

Or is it actually a clinical progression in which there’s kidney dysfunction or anemia or bone disease? Because the choices and the urgency of treatment may change. So patient factors, disease factors, and then drug factors are the third class or third category, which is what have you had before? How long have you been on it? Are you on maintenance or not? Is your disease considered refractory to a certain agent, meaning resistant to a certain agent? Typically, if you were on a treatment and your disease is progressing, that same drug may not be used again.

And there are some times that we will reuse a drug, but generally not. We can use the same class, but we may not typically use the same drug. So I think the choice of treatment depends on all of those factors put in. And then we come up with one or two or three regimens and we discuss them with patients. And, of course, being an academic, physician, I must say there is always, you must always seek out good clinical trials if they’re available to you. That is the way our field moves forward.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes, thank you for that information. So we have another patient asking, “Do myeloma patients require multiple prior therapies prior to being eligible for CAR T?” And what’s the rationale for not implementing CAR T immediately, which probably has to do with FDA approval based on clinical trials at this point?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely. You’re absolutely right, Lisa. So any drug, let alone CAR T, any drug can only be given in the situation that it is approved by the FDA. So basically in accordance with that drug’s FDA approval label. Currently, CAR T-cell therapy is approved in the U.S. after at least four prior lines of therapy. And the patient must have had treatment with at least one proteasome inhibitor,  for which we have three drugs, bortezomib (Velcade), ixazomib (Ninlaro), and carfilzomib. They must have been treated with at least one prior immunomodulatory drug; lenalidomide, thalidomide (Thalomid), pomalidomide. And they must have been previously treated by at least one monoclonal antibody, daratumumab (Darzalex) or Isatuximab (Sarclisa).

Once the patient has had all these criteria met, they’ve become a candidate for CAR T-cell therapy. Frankly, we cannot just use a drug anywhere because we cannot use a drug where it has not shown to be of benefit. And importantly, it has not shown to be of any risk. So CAR T-cell therapy in the first line setting is being studied in clinical trials, but is not FDA-approved. Currently approved only after four prior lines, but the FDA is reviewing data for both the CAR T’s to see if they may be available sooner. As of right now, that approval is still pending.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. We’re hopeful that that will happen soon.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Hopeful.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah. So interesting question from a patient, “Does CAR-T therapy actually change one’s DNA?”

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

No. The CAR T therapy does not change one’s DNA. What happens is, there are T cells taken out of a patient. The DNA of those T cells is modified and then those T cells are given back to the patient. Those T cells do not go and integrate into your other healthy body cells or your stem cells, et cetera. Those T cells, it’s almost like giving a boost of immunity, which is targeted against your myeloma. So those T cells go in and they fill those myeloma cells. Now we hope that those T cells perpetuate and teach or create some memory T cells and that immunity lasts a little bit longer. But all of that genetic modification stays within the T cells. It does not integrate anywhere else.

Now, I know there was a previous question about T-cell lymphomas, that is related to this question in a way because the risk that is theoretical is, that that genetic modification in the T cells might make those T cells replicate uncontrollably leading to a T-cell cancer or T-cell lymphoma. But I’m saying that this is theoretical because while it is possible, it happens extremely rarely and even in the cases where the cancer happened, it has been seen that the cancer may not come from that portion of the DNA that was…that’s where the modification was done. So, low risk.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you very much for that.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. So what would be the next steps, Dr. Ailawadhi for a patient who’s had CAR T and reaches a relapse state or is relapsed?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Yep. This is something, unfortunately is the truth of the matter in myeloma at least that we are, we don’t seek cures. We have had some long remissions. I have, for example, patients who are now reaching three, three-and-a-half years of remission on CAR T treatment who received it on clinical trials even before they got FDA-approved.

But, unfortunately, the disease does come back. So what happens is, we are seeing data that the novel, other novel immunotherapies like bispecific antibodies, even the ones who go after the same target as CAR T, BCMA targeting bispecifics, they do have some response rates, good response rates in post CAR T setting. So the bispecific antibodies by themselves may give us 60 to 65 percent response, but in the post CAR T setting, that response might go down to 40, 45 percent. So less responses, but still possible.

There are also bispecific antibody. There is one available, which is not against BCMA, it is against GPRC5D. That’s a bispecific called talquetamab-tgvs (Talvey). So a novel target. There is…there are of course a lot of clinical trials. There are some clinical trials that are even looking at CAR T post-CAR T. So different kind of a CAR T. Those clinical trials are going out. So what I would suggest is that if your disease progresses after CAR T-cell treatment, you should very strongly consider getting to a specialist myeloma center and get an opinion like you mentioned, Lisa.

That is so important because the choice of treatment is extremely important at that time. And we are trying our best to sequence all the options we have, in a way, actually one of my patients mentioned, one of these days, Hey, does that mean that I’m basically buying time till something new and exciting comes along? And I said in a way that is true. That we are trying to stretch all our treatments and get to the point that something new and promising just like CAR T comes, and hopefully we get longer benefits again.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. So when you say there’s a possibility of CAR T and then a post-CAR T maybe a second CAR T. Would that be a different target then?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So there could be a different target. I have, in fact, just yesterday I saw a patient who had received one CAR T in a clinical trial and then they were subsequently able to receive a CAR T standard of care, which had been FDA approved. So they used different CAR Ts, but one was in clinical trials and one was standard of care.

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh, great. Okay. Again, important to see a myeloma specialist to tease out all this information. Thank you. All right. This patient is asking, “I’m 81 and living with comorbidities. The myeloma was diagnosed after bone marrow test. How is treatment fitness determined?” And also a question about that is if you’re given an ECOG status of something you don’t like it, can that be improved after you’ve had treatment?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely.

Lisa Hatfield:

Maybe be eligible for a trial or something.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Correct. Correct. That is so important. When this patient mentioned that they’re 81-year-old and they’re living with comorbidities, I think, so when I’m talking to a patient who’s new to me, it’s very important for me to try to tease out what was their performance status or their fitness status prior to myeloma. Because my goal is to try to get them as close to that as possible. Now if this patient is saying that they were already quite frail before the diagnosis of myeloma and myeloma is added to the frailty, then it becomes a little tricky because we’re starting in a difficult spot. We do determine fitness by asking questions, simple questions like, what can a patient do at baseline? Can they do grocery store or grocery shopping by themselves? Can they walk around the block? Do they get short of breath? Et cetera.

And frankly, there are 81-year-olds who are playing golf every day and are fitter than me. So I’m just saying that age by itself is not the criteria. And, Lisa, like you rightly mentioned, if there are fitness issues coming from the disease itself, then that’s the time that we actually have to work with the treatment, get the treatment started, and then assess the fitness a couple of months later, a couple of cycles later. Because the treatment may have worked and may have improved the fitness quite a bit.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great thank you for that. So this person is asking, their husband is starting maintenance therapy, so I am assuming they just finished induction therapy, having leg pains mostly at night. Could this be a form of peripheral neuropathy or is maybe from bisphosphonates or from any of the medications that maybe were used during induction?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So, excellent question. So, this is almost going back to that survivorship question that we discussed earlier, that it’s so important to manage the side effects and maintain quality of life. So, a lot of patients with myeloma will say that I have cramping or symptoms or some pins and needles at night more so. Part of it is because body’s at rest, relaxed, things, symptoms become more focused. Yes, it could be peripheral neuropathy, but at the same time certain drugs caused muscle cramping or what’s called myalgias, sometimes maintenance therapies can cause that.

It’s important for somebody to be able to determine is it coming from muscles or nerves? Is it coming because some electrolytes are abnormal. Like one of the common things is low magnesium or low potassium can cause neuropathy, for example, or cramping. I’ve had patients who will get some over-the-counter lotions or some forms et cetera, which are infused with some electrolytes and say that they feel some benefit. So topical things are good. So I think it’s important to figure out is it muscle or nerve and is it coming from drugs or disease? And that’s where your physician can help tease it out.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So we have a patient who is talking about her genetic abnormalities, but has been through both auto and allo stem cell transplant in the last two years and has relapsed. And is asking, “Can CAR T-cell therapy help me?” And would she even be eligible for CAR T therapy given the allotransplant?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

That’s an important question. So first of all, sorry to hear that, that your disease is behaving that aggressively, that you’ve had both the transplants in the past two years and still having issues. So yes, CAR T can still be used after an allotransplant. There are some criteria. You should not be on any graft versus host suppressive medications, and you should not have any active graft versus host disease going on. So depending on those, yes patients can get CAR T post. And, in fact, I’ve had a couple of patients who’ve had CAR T after allotransplant.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. I’m sure that’ll give this patient some hope. Are there any studies showing that treatment can be tapered? Tapered to by daily, once 90 percent reduction in myeloma has occurred with various therapies. So in general, you may know what medication this patient’s talking about, but is that possible to do that, to taper therapy?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So, absolutely, first of all, in myeloma care, Lisa, you had mentioned initially that as somebody went to maintenance, they have had induction. So there are these terms used for categories of treatment, induction, consolidation, maintenance. But if the disease gets controlled adequately at a certain time point, the treatment can be modified to a maintenance. It depends on the regimen.

Some regimens, for example, we are able to get rid of the steroids after a certain time and then in certain regimens the drugs can be reduced in dose or frequency, et cetera. All of the drugs we use have maintenance regimens and maintenance doses. But I should put a word of caution there. I see very frequently that the moment the labs improve, this quote unquote “maintenance” is brought in.

That’s not the right way to do things. The right way is to go back to the clinical trial based on which this regimen was started. And according to that clinical trial, after however many cycles of treatment the maintenance was supposed to happen, it should happen. So if I’ll very quickly say if somebody stays, starts on a regimen and within four months their M spike comes down, and now it has plateaued. Because our drugs are so good that they work that fast. And somebody says, “Okay, four months of that is enough, let’s save it for the future. Let’s go to maintenance.” I would say, “Absolutely not.”

In fact, there is data suggested from a couple of regimens that if significant modifications were made prior to one year of the regimen, then the outcomes were inferior. And I’m not going in specific regimens and I’m not saying that that is applicable to everything, but what I’m saying is, yes, maintenance and tapering is possible. In fact, there are clinical trials looking at even stopping medication. But when and how that change is to be made is very very important. It’s critical. If your physician is not comfortable about that time point, reach out to a myeloma specialist. They should be able to guide when and how to reduce or taper or put on maintenance.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. And that’s very important what you said about induction therapy. Go back to the clinical trial and look and see what the clinical trial said as far as how long that treatment should last because it is exciting as a patient when you start seeing those numbers dropping exponentially. They’re just plummeting, and you want to go off it, you don’t feel great. It’s hard to stay on a therapy for 6 to 12 months that you don’t really enjoy and nobody really does. So that’s important. And then maybe talk about maintenance therapy later. It would be nice to have limited duration maintenance, sometime in the future for induction therapy. Stick with what the clinical trial says. So, okay, this patient is asking another really important question, “I have myeloma and now my daughter does as well. She’s 37, is multiple myeloma hereditary?”

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

I’m sorry to hear about this situation and I’m so sorry that your daughter who’s 37 got diagnosed. There is a small, very small number of very young patients and I’m saying using this term very young, which is just a generic thing that I’ve said because myeloma median age of diagnosis 68. I saw a patient who was diagnosed at 33 and they’re 40 now and they’ve already gone through every single thing that they can think of. And we were talking about clinical trials. So, typically myeloma is not hereditary. It is not something that is passed along through the generations. But what I would say is that there is, if this sort of a situation is happening that you have myeloma and now your daughter has it at a young age, it is important for you to consider getting genetic counseling.

So a genetic counsel for them to be able to look deeper into it. There is not a very standard specific test, so for me to say, Hey, you go and get this genetic test done and that’ll find out this mutation, whatever. But it’s important to get, go through some genetic counseling for them to be able to look a little bit deeper, some next-generation sequencing, what is called germline testing or somatic testing. They should be able to compare both the parent and the daughter’s disease as well as what’s called germline, which is their native DNA, which they were born with, to see if there is anything that jumps out of that. But that would be important to go through at a larger cancer center or if that service is available through your local physician also. That would be great.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Well, I think that’s it for our questions. That’s all that we have time for. But Dr. Ailawadhi, thank you so much for once again, being part of our Patient Empowerment Network START HERE Program. Because it really is these kinds of conversations that help patients, me included, feel more empowered to take questions back to our providers and our healthcare team. So thank you so much for joining us and thank you out there to everybody who’s watching this program, we appreciate you and we appreciate your time and expertise.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Thanks and I look forward to the next time.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network Program and we look forward to seeing you again soon.

PODCAST: Thrive | Considering CAR T-Cell Therapy for Myeloma? What You Should Know

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Dr. Beth Faiman, a myeloma expert and researcher, discusses factors that should be considered when deciding to undergo CAR T-cell therapy, advice for preparing for and after the process, and why a good support team is essential. Dr. Faiman also shares research updates in CAR T-cell therapy, and alternatives options to this myeloma treatment.

Dr. Beth Faiman is an Adult Nurse Practitioner in the department of Hematologic Oncology and Blood Disorders at the Cleveland Clinic. Learn more about Dr. Faiman.

See More From Thrive CAR T-Cell Therapy

Download Resource Guide

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. As patients navigate their myeloma care, it’s essential for them to feel formed when engaging with their care team. That’s why the Patient Empowerment Network developed the Thrive series, to share support and educational resources so that patients can feel confident at every stage of their care. In today’s program, we’re going to hear from a renowned myeloma expert as we discuss CAR-T therapy. Before we meet today’s guest, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, joining us today is Dr. Beth Faiman. Dr. Faiman, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Thank you so much, Katherine, and it’s such an honor and a pleasure to be here today. My name is Beth Faiman. I am a nurse practitioner and a PhD researcher at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio, where I have worked since 1994, in the field of myeloma mostly. Thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us today. As I mentioned, today’s program is part of our Thrive series. So, from your perspective, what does it mean to thrive with myeloma?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

So, to thrive with myeloma is something that when I started managing patients in the 1990s individuals didn’t live very long, maybe two to three years, because we did not have good therapies. Now, we talk about living well with myeloma, thriving with myeloma. It just makes me so happy. I think for plants. I think of flowers that can grow in the right environment. I had a plant in my office recently that somebody had gifted me, and it sat there and tried to soak up the little bit of sunlight that it could muster and just wasn’t doing well.  

So, I brought it home and I put it in a big window. That plant is beautiful now and I just love looking at it and thinking about it. And it reminds me of how if you’re in your right environment with multiple myeloma you surround yourself with friends, families, coworkers, church friends, or places of worship, then you can really thrive in that environment or you can grow. And even though you have a cancer diagnosis, that is not – and I hate to use the D-word – a death sentence anymore. You can live many years and live well with myeloma in the right environment like my little plant.  

Katherine Banwell:

That’s a great idea to think about. Thank you. Well, we’ve covered this in recent webinars but it’s worth sharing again. Can you give us an overview of the process and timeline for someone choosing CAR T-cell therapy for myeloma treatment?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. So, CAR T-cell therapy, when we first started discussing this in the mid-2000s, I thought this was science fiction.  

Taking somebody’s own cells, engineering them to be fighters against the cancer cells. I thought it was science fiction. But now, we have two FDA approved therapies for multiple myeloma. It’s Ide-cel, which was approved in 2021 and Cilta-cel, approved in 2022.  

Now, the process is lengthy and I know you’ve covered this before but from my perspective, I think if you want to take something home form this webinar, plan early. So, you need to have three prior lines of therapy as a myeloma patient to qualify for this treatment. But you can start planning for it ahead of time.  

So, it’s not available in every center. So, you want to start researching what the closest center would be for you to have this therapy. Many different patient support networks will have these centers on their websites. So anyhow, you find out.  

“Okay. I want to learn more about a CAR T-cell therapy.” Then you have to meet with a specialist. So, you get that education, have that referral, and meet with a specialist at a center that does CAR T-cell therapy. And that might be where you got your initial transplant if you’ve then returned to the community. After that, then we find a slot for you when it’s ready. So, there is that process of financial, physical, social things that are checked in the background. You meet with a social worker, nurses, etc.  

Once you’ve confirmed that you’re going to go through this process – now, it might be three, six, nine months in the future, if you’re a planner – but if you want to just gain information, it’s that harvesting and storing of the cells. That’s where I try to tell people age is not a number. You can be at any age and you qualify for this therapy. We’ve had people well into their late 70s to early 80s who have gotten these therapies.   

Long story short, it’s a process.  

You get your cells harvested and then while they’re being manufactured into fighters, they take the T cells from your blood through an apheresis machine and freeze them, send them off, make them into fighters, and then reinfuse them in your bloodstream. It’s a long process. It can take anywhere from two to three months from when you decide it’s right for you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, thank you for explaining that. That’s really important. It puts into perspective. It’s a big undertaking. But also, quite manageable, I think, right, with the right team and support. Who are the members?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. The family members, friends, and, of course – I like to use the words the multidisciplinary team. That’s your physicians, your social workers, nurses, nurse practitioners like me, pharmacists, and then all your other specialists.  

So really, mounting that team from diagnosis and throughout your whole journey as a myeloma patient can really enrichen your life and help you thrive in that environment.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. It sounds like there’s a lot of support for someone going through this process and that the care partner also plays a critical role on the care team, right?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, absolutely. So, I am a big advocate for care partner though not everybody has a caregiver. So, it can be a formal caregiver, somebody’s spouse, daughter, son, significant other. Or it can be an informal caregiver. So, I’ve had patients that – because you need to have a care partner to qualify for CAR T-cell therapy, because patients need to be monitored for about 30 days afterwards. So, that might be pulling in friends from your place of worship, people from the community, and then also people from the cancer center.  

Some of the larger centers that do the CART-cell therapy have a network setup where you get this list of people that have volunteered to drive you to appointments or maybe arrange for Uber help to drive you back and forth. I am not plugging Uber or Lyft, but a rideshare company. And so, finding out those resources can help anyone – just about anyone – access these CAR  T-cell therapies, because you can have a long-term remission. Think about somebody who’s been through treatment A, B, C, or D and then now, “Gosh, maybe my life is going to be shortened.”  

Not necessarily. If this is the right recipe to control their myeloma then they can get 11, 24 months off of everything – just antibiotics – and be monitored. And so, it puts them at a position where if you can get the care partner, get a care team, to support you then you can have access to a potentially life extending with good quality of life therapy.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’m sure many of our viewers today are wondering who the therapy is right for and when is it most appropriate in the course of myeloma? Could you address that?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. So, currently, you have to have had three prior lines of therapy with drugs such as a CD38, which is – daratumumab (Darzalex) is a name of a medication.  

You have to have a drug such as lenalidomide (Revlimid) as well as a drug like bortezomib (Velcade). And you have to have had three lines of therapy. So, that’s how you can access the therapy. But if you’re willing to participate in a well-designed clinical trial there are studies with CAR T-cell therapy earlier on.  

So, one of the things that we’re advocating in the myeloma world is clinical trials. We haven’t gotten to where we are in 2024 with the advances in sciences, the advances in living longer and living well with myeloma, without the brave people before us that have participated in clinical trials. 

So, people who it’s right for would be if they qualify for a clinical trial before their third or fourth line of therapy or if they’ve had three or four prior lines of therapy. And there are other points to that which I’m sure we’ll talk about later on.  

Katherine Banwell:

In your opinion, what are three key considerations that myeloma patients and care partners should think about related to the CAR T-cell therapy approach?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, gosh. Well, I would like to say that always when you’re selecting a therapy, think of the physical, the financial, and the social implications of that therapy. So, physically is the medication too strong for you? Are you too weak to take it? Or is it just right for you? So, finding the right medication for the right patient at the right dose at the right time. So, the physical component. The financial component is also very important. So, maybe your insurance now won’t cover it but then there’s open enrollment in Medicare towards the end of the year or you can find financial support reimbursement through many of our generous organizations that will provide grants for certain medications.  

And then, the social. Do you have a care partner, as we discussed? The importance of being monitored for 30 days. If you don’t have a formal care partner, is there some system that we can help support you through so that you can have the different supports throughout. It’s not only that beginning part where you’re gaining the information – and I think of it like a timeline. The beginning part, you’re thinking about gathering information to the – in that process of getting yourselves back because of the side effects, which I think have been talked about in a prior webinar.  

And then, the post-monitoring where you go back to your community, taking antibiotics, antiviral medications, etc., to keep you living well longer. So, it’s a process.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s great advice, Dr. Faiman, thank you. I’d also like to add that if you’re considering CAR T-cell therapy, the Patient Empowerment Network has a wealth of information on this topic, including resource guides and interviews with experts like Dr. Faiman. 

And you can find those at powerfulpatients.org/myeloma. So, Dr. Faiman, when a patient is talking with their care team about CAR T-cell therapy, what questions should they be asking to help determine if CAR-T is even right for them?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Katherine, that’s an excellent question. So, let’s just say that somebody from Patient Empowerment Network heard about CAR T-cell therapy for myeloma and then sought out a local institution that might be conducting that procedure. So then, they come for that visit and what you mentioned was just spot on, getting a list of questions together. What we do at my institution, as well as many throughout the country, is a process called shared decision-making.  

You might’ve talked about this on prior webinars, but shared decision-making occurs when that healthcare team, such as the physician, nurse practitioner, pharmacist, whoever, shares information with the patient and their care partner.  

You mutually share information to arrive at a decision. So, many studies have been done on shared decision-making. It’s done in many different areas. And so, through that sharing of information, you might think of different questions.  

Some of the things that I try to proactively offer – we all have our list of things that we educate our patients on, but some of the things I proactively will recommend to patients and their care partners when you’re seeking an opinion at these centers is, “How long will I be sick? What are the biggest side effects of the medication I have to worry about?” Asking your care team – I know it sounds silly, but are they aware of all your prior health concerns, especially if you’re coming for an evaluation.  

Maybe you have peripheral neuropathy where you have numbness and tingling in your fingers or toes or a history of kidney disease. Your kidneys look fine now but maybe a few years ago at the myeloma diagnosis the kidneys had a temporary failing and now they’re better so they’d want to protect you with future medications. How long will you have to take medications after the CAR-T procedure? There’s antiviral medicines, antibacterial medications, and medications called IVIG, which strengthens your immune system.  

And then, finally, asking about the infection protection afterwards. Do you have to get vaccinated again against pneumococcal, shingles, and all of those other things that we do. The cellular therapy guidelines suggest timepoint for one, three, five, etc., months after CAR T-cell procedure to get revaccinated. So, who’s going to do that for you?  

How are you going to know what to get? So, make sure that they give you a timeline, calendars, and set expectations for what you need to do as a patient and then you’ll help them set expectations for what they need to do to provide you the accurate education.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, talking about what to expect after CAR T-cell therapy, would you tell us what some of the potential side effects are?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, absolutely. So, CAR T-cell therapy – again, it harnesses your immune system using your T cells. Your T cells are so important in your immune system to be programmed as fighters. And as people age, or as long as – after they’ve had myeloma or other kinds of cancers, those T cells just don’t work as well. So, what we want to do is engineer them and program them with what we call a viral vector to be fighters. So, those T cells, as I mentioned, are harvested, stored, and then manufactured to go. 

And I tell people it’s like that Pac-Man video game. It goes around in your bloodstream just kind of eating away at the myeloma cells. So, you don’t take any medications. You don’t go in for IVs every week or twice weekly, or taking pills at home to treat the myeloma. It’s what we consider a one-and-done thing. So, if it works for you, it can keep you in remission for quite some time. But if it doesn’t work then there still are other therapies down the road.  

So, the CAR T-cell therapy is something that is an option but there are other therapies out there in many cases. There’s something called a bispecific antibody. There are three currently approved for multiple myeloma now. So, maybe a CAR T-cell therapy doesn’t seem right for you because you’re not in a good remission or the cancer’s too active right now so you don’t have the time to wait for manufacturing of the cells and putting them back in your bloodstream.  

Those bispecifics will fill that gap. So, when you’re discussing the options, aside from clinical trials and other drugs, the bispecific antibody is very similar. One of the things that I wanted to highlight is that nowadays we’re into these things called sequencing. So, we’re trying to figure out what order to give these super effective drugs. Should we give the bispecific antibodies first or should we give the CAR T-cell therapy first? And in most centers, if you have time to wait and you’re planning, the CAR T-cell therapy is right for most people and then the bispecifics would come later.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right. So, after CAR T-cell therapy is completed, what potential side effects might people experience, and what should they look for?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. I think of things in short-term and long-term side effects. So, the short term, you’re going to be admitted to the hospital and you have a risk for – when we get those T cells back – that cytokine release syndrome, or it’s abbreviated CRS – where you’re body’s immune system’s fighting.  

I tell folks it’s kind of like if you got a vaccine for a flu vaccine or pneumonia and you had a reaction it’s just way worse. So, you can get a high fever – the big first sign of this CRS. Usually, the providers will jump in with giving you a medication called tocilizumab (Actemra) or a similar drug that blocks IL-6, which is a chemical that is triggered when we get the CRS. And then, it stops those symptoms. And so, most of us know how to do that and will approve your insurance to get access to that tocilizumab or similar drug when we approve your CAR T-cell therapy.  

So, that CRS can get you really, really sick. You can get low oxygen levels in your blood. You can get a high fever and you can drop your blood pressure. But most CAR T-cells centers, the nurses and the staff are very well-trained to monitor this every eight hours, in most cases.  

Another rare side effect we worry about is ICANS and it’s a neurotoxicity kind of thing.  

It can be with CRS or without CRS. But they’ll ask you to do things like write your name on a piece of paper every eight hours or tell me – draw a clock or count backwards from 100. And so, if you have any deviation, even minor, from what you reported back beforehand then we worry about neurotoxicity. Now, that’s short term but that’s the reason why you can’t drive a car for 30 days is because it could be delayed. 

The CRS can start with the one thing, the ide-cel usually occurs within one day so most people are admitted to the hospital for that CAR T-cell therapy. The Cilta-cel, it onsets to about seven days. So, some people get the cilta-cel outpatient and then are monitored daily, whether in person or through virtual telehealth monitoring.  

But at any rate, those are the short-term. Long-term, we worry about low blood counts maybe for the first month afterwards. And then, those will come back to normal. And then, we worry about infection. So, I mentioned the antibacterial, antiviral, which is usually a medicine called acyclovir (Zovirax), which most myeloma patients will have been on anyhow. And then, that IVIG to protect against viruses and bacteria when your immune system is so low. 

But fortunately, if we control the CRS, it usually comes with the CRS, although it can be independent. We try not to give steroids, because we don’t want it to interrupt the CAR T-cell process. But many institutions will give that tocilizumab for ICANS. And if that doesn’t get better then they’ll give you a steroid, such as dexamethasone (Decadron). 

And so, that will usually reverse itself pretty quickly. Longer term, after 30 days, you can get with the Carvykti, particularly something called Parkinsonian things where you can get a little bit shaky or something like that. Again, it’s very rare and I have had hundreds of people who have undergone the CAR T-cell procedure at my institution. And knock on wood, fortunately, I’ve not seen first-hand that side effect. And I think it’s because we’re so good now at treating the – preventing the ICANS and CRS as best as we can while they’re inpatient and doing real close following.  

One other thing I want to note is if somebody who’s watching this does go in the hospital for any reason, get up and walk around and stay strong, as well as you can, during the procedure. You might be bored if you’re in the hospital anyhow, but try to stay as strong as you can in the hospital. It’ll help your post recovery for sure.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, what about more mild side effects like fatigue and changes in appetite?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. So, the fatigue and the changes in appetite are generally mild for most but I see it, in my experience, if your myeloma’s acting up really quickly, if you’re having a rapid disease progression, the medications that we give you to control the myeloma during this bridging therapy phase might cause some of that as well, not necessarily the CAR T-cell process. But think about it. We’re using your own cells engineered to be fighters.  

And so, that first month or two is probably when you’re going to be the most tired as your body is being programmed to fight against the myeloma cells. That fatigue tends to get better. And as I mentioned just a moment earlier, the importance of just walking around in the halls, getting out of bed when you’re in the hospital, that can really help your post recovery. It doesn’t seem like much, but there have been many studies about how muscle mass declines, energy declines when you’re hospitalized.  

And we want you to be as strong as you can and thrive as much as you can for when you’re out you can then do the things you want to do at a quicker pace.   

Katherine Banwell:

Right. That’s great advice. Beyond monitoring of any issues, what can someone expect related to returning to life as they knew it before the diagnosis? Is there a timeline for resuming lifestyle and activity?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah. So, I should say I because it’s from my perspective. I am a real strong advocate. I tell people to do what you feel like you can physically do. We know that myeloma can affect the bones and put your bones at risk for breaking and so we give you medicines to protect it. So, I do put some restrictions however on physical activity in terms of, “I don’t want you to bench press 40 pounds or 20 pounds,” in most cases. And depending on what the bones look like on x-ray, I’ll even restrict it to about five to 10 pounds.  

If you think about it, that’s a bag of potatoes. So, you don’t want to put too many restrictions on for everybody. But talk to your healthcare provider about what your specific restrictions are with physical activity. Because I don’t really put any restrictions on but I encourage things like riding a bike, especially a stationary bike in your own home, so that if you fall off – hopefully, you won’t fall off a stationary bike. But if you injure yourself, then you’re able to be in a place that somebody can help you.  

But riding a bike. Also, exercising in water. Water therapy is a great weight bearing exercise and there are times of day where you can go when the YMCAs or YWCAs aren’t as busy – or community centers. So, you’re less at risk for bacterial or other illnesses. But during that first month, I try to limit their exposure to people because you’re at risk for the different viruses that are all over the place, the bacterial infections. 

So, that first month is the critical period where I try to say, “Okay, try to lay low. Let’s get you through this period. Your immune system will start getting stronger on its own after this period.” And then, that month two you start feeling like doing more. You go to the grocery store. You maybe go to eat out at a restaurant but pick a time of day that’s less busy. So, go for an early dinner. There’s no shame in eating at 5:00 p.m. if you want to go out. And then, get a table in the corner with your own wipes. And so, that’s where your immune system is getting stronger. 

And then, by month three, I think most people will feel much, much better and much, much stronger. And if you can keep moving throughout this whole time, then you’ll be stronger on the way out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Faiman, from what you’ve described, undergoing CAR T-cell therapy can be a very intense process. Why would someone consider this option over another myeloma treatment option?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah. So, the CAR T-cell therapies have really transformed myeloma, in my opinion.  

When we first started using CAR T-cell therapies, there was a long wait list because people who had had three, five, seven, 10, 12 prior therapies, they had very few other options. So, we had ethically assigned scores to people as to who – we’d get one or two slots a month and then we’d have 80-some people on this list. And we’re thinking, “How do we allocate who’s going to get this therapy?” And it’s because you can have a nice, long remission off of all therapy.  

It’s a great, great option for most people. Again, I would hope that we can get this moved further into the disease trajectory. There are actually two studies. One was a KarMMa study. It was published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2023, early part of 2023.  

And it showed that when people get this therapy earlier, the Ide-cel first, you can have a longer remission. So, we’re talking about three, four, five or more prior lines of therapy you can get about 11 months with the Ide-cel.  

You could even get a longer remission off of all therapy if you move it earlier. Same with Cilta-cel. We had studies and different cohorts and you can be in a long remission. So, think of somebody who’s – myeloma’s incurable. It’s very treatable but it’s incurable for most. And so, you go from the expectation of staying on treatment until disease progression, much like other chronic conditions like diabetes. We don’t stop medicine for diabetes or high blood pressure.  

And it’s the same with myeloma and many of the cancers that we treat these days. And so, a CAR T-cell therapy will give patients the option of having that disease free interval where you can go and travel the world. I have patients that have bought RVs after their CAR T-cell therapy and now they’re going around the world – well, not the world. But around the United States.  

Katherine Banwell:

The country. 

Dr. Beth Faiman:

The country. And just really enjoying life and taking that time off and being realistic, knowing that we have to do bloodwork every month to make sure the myeloma’s still in remission because it can come back. But at least it’s sleeping for right now. So, you can go out and enjoy your life and take those trips and enjoy the little things and the big things.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, thank you for that advice. I’d like to get to a few audience questions that were sent in prior to the program. Alice asks, can you share more information about T-cell collection? A recent webinar mentioned that myeloma must be in good control. Can you share specifics about the bridging therapy prior to infusion?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. So, again, the process is the lengthy process as we mentioned before. But for the actual T-cell collection, we will have approved you to get the therapy. Financially, we’ve cleared you. Socially, you’ve gotten your support systems and now we’re getting those cells out.  

We use a process called apheresis where a temporary catheter is placed under the skin, and it separates your white blood cells and then returns the red bloods and plasma back into the blood. And it sorts out those T cells. The process itself, you’re on the machine for anywhere for two or three hours. Hopefully, it’ll just be one day’s time. And then, they’ll manufacture those cells.  

So, during that period where we’ve put your cells and sent them away to wherever’s going to be doing the manufacturing, you’re going to need to get a treatment that’s going to keep you in remission from the myeloma. And it’s not going to prevent you from getting those cells safely back. So, we don’t want anything that’s too toxic for most people. So, what we’re doing now is we have that information that early on is better for myeloma to get these treatments. And so, the hope that bridging therapy won’t be as common of a thing anymore.  

Because now we’re selecting people that are – the myeloma’s just starting to act up. Let’s get those cells out, send them off, so we don’t have to do bridging therapy. We can just keep you – add a medication or take away another medication to keep you in remission. So, that’s the goal of bridging therapy. What’s that bridge to get your cells back in for some people? It might be a chemotherapy type of a thing. But for other people it’s just trying to get you that CAR T-cell collection and manufacturing so we don’t really have to change everything all up.  

And we’ve been very fortunate now that the wait lists have cleared in most institutions. CAR-T cell is available at more centers across the country and so we don’t have that backlog. And so, fortunately, bridging therapy will hopefully be a little bit less of a thing.  

Katherine Banwell:

We have another question. This one from Rita. What kind of monitoring takes places in the months following CAR T-cell therapy and what kinds of medicines are required afterward?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, excellent. So, the monitoring is usually on the short-term, within the first 30 to 60 days afterwards, oftentimes depending on what your blood counts are showing. You might have to get blood counts tested more frequently. So, that complete blood count shows you the white cells, the red cells. The white cells fight infection. Red cells carry oxygen. Platelets clot the blood. That’s a marker of how well your bone marrow is functioning. It also can be – those innocent bystanders can go low temporarily after this procedure.  

So, definitely those CBCs need to be tested, for some people weekly and for some people every other week. And your healthcare team will tell you how often. After that first two to three months and your blood counts are all in good shape, then we can just go oftentimes to a monthly monitoring of the myeloma labs. So, that’s the CBC and the chemistry panel but also the paraproteins in the blood and the urine get monitored.  

There’s also another test called a CD4 count that’s something that you wouldn’t have had beforehand. The CD4 count is an immune count that we want to be over 200. Oftentimes,  you’ll be on an antibiotic called Bactrim or an inhaled called pentamidine to lessen the chance of a certain kind of infection called PJP, or pneumocystis. So, those are those atypical infections that we’re now seeing with CAR-T cell and other therapies.  

And as I mentioned, acyclovir to protect against shingles is a medication but you’re not going to be on any anti-myeloma medications other than maybe a bone strengthener if you get that intermittently. Fortunately, after CAR-T cell, you don’t have any anti myeloma therapy as long as you’re in remission.  

Katherine Banwell:

We also received this question from a viewer named Rob. If you receive CAR-T therapy, how long does it last and have you seen remission for a long time?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

So, I’d like to tell Rob that I’ve seen a little bit of a remission and I’ve seen long-time remissions. Unfortunately, it goes back to the biology of the disease. People that have a more aggressive type of myeloma tend to not have as long of a remission but that’s not always the case. So, if you have what’s called a standard type of myeloma, which fortunately about 80 percent of the people have a standard or good type of myeloma, you can get an 11- to 24-month remission if you’ve had many prior therapies.  

Now, if we’re moving the CAR-T earlier lines of therapy, as in those two studies that I briefly mentioned with the Ide-cel and the Cilta-cel studies that are moving it to one to three prior lines of therapy, people are getting longer remissions.  

Unfortunately, I do not have a crystal ball. I can look at your disease genetics. I can look at how deep your remission status is and I can generally predict based on other studies how long of a remission you might get, but it’s not a guarantee. What works for one person might not work for the other so you take it with a grain of salt. We just say, “Gosh, this is a great therapy. We need to offer it to you while we have that window of opportunity. You’re in a good remission. We have a slot for you. We’re going to pick the best product for you. Let’s give you this option.” 

You might be one of those exceptional responders that are in remission for several years, which I do have people that have been in remission several years, fortunately.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Well, thank you so much for the thoughtful responses to those questions. As we close out today’s program, can you talk about some of the ongoing research in CAR T-cell therapy and what you’re excited about?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, my gosh. I am so excited about CAR T-cell therapy research. There are these what we call CRISPR gene edited technology, which is really personalizing the treatment in CAR-T.  

There’s what we call an off-the-shelf approach where we don’t have to manufacture one’s T cells to be a fighter. So, these CAR T-cell therapies are the kinds of clinical studies where if you are in a position where you want to hopefully get an earlier access to a great therapy, this CRISPR edited at – Caribou is what it’s called, that we have at my institution. That might be right for you.  

There’s also the different targets. For example, the Ide-cel and the Cilta-cel target what’s called BCMA or B-cell maturation antigen. Basically, the BCMA is expressed mostly on cancer cells and less so on healthy cells.  

And so, that’s what the target is for these current CAR-Ts. We have different targets. So, what does that mean for you? If you had a CAR T-cell therapy against BCMA or a bispecific against BCMA now we have these different targets so that gives you other options for remissions status. So, if you can, I am a big, strong advocate for clinical trials. Like I said, it’s getting better access. You have a healthcare team. There’s so much stigma associated with clinical trials, but every single person is a candidate for some sort of a trial or another.  

So, talk to your healthcare team or you can go to clinicaltrials.gov and then all the patient care organizations – International Myeloma Foundation, Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation, has access to clinical trial information as well for patients. So, yes, lots of good things. New targets. Off-the-shelf so you don’t have to manufacture. So, that represents new treatment options for many patients.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Faiman, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Beth Faiman:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a more proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.  

PODCAST: HCP Roundtable: Critical Clinical Trial Conversations in the Expanding Myeloma Landscape

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Treatment options for multiple myeloma have increased substantially, mainly attributed to advancements in clinical trials. More than ever, HCPs having conversations about trials is critical. Given that underrepresented communities bear a disproportionate burden of multiple myeloma, it becomes imperative to shift this paradigm.

What are the optimal approaches to initiate these conversations early in the patient journey? How should HCPs effectively communicate information about clinical trials to patients and their families, including care partners? Myeloma experts Dr. Craig Cole and Charise Gleason lend their expertise, offering insights into best practices and guidance on the next steps to be taken.

Download Resource Guide  |  Descargar guía de recursos

Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients Program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, founder and CEO of Your GPS Doc. EPEP is a patient empowerment network program that serves as a secure space for healthcare providers to learn techniques for improving patient-physician communication and overcome practice barriers. In this

Myeloma roundtable, we are tackling critical clinical trial conversations in the expanding myeloma landscape. Some of the things we’ll discuss during this program include, how to explain the sequence of myeloma treatment and how clinical trials fit in. Healthcare provider to healthcare provider, recommended strategies for initiating clinical trial conversations early in the myeloma patient journey, and how to effectively mitigate and manage concerns regarding clinical trials through education, and continuously encourage patients and their care partners to ask questions.

It is my honor and privilege to be joined by Charise Gleason, vice President and Chief Advanced Practice Officer for Emory Healthcare, and adjunct faculty at the Nell Hodgson Woodruff School of Nursing at Emory University. Ms. Gleason leads the physician assistants and nurse practitioners across Emory Healthcare, overseeing clinical practice, quality, safety, and education. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ms. Gleason.

Charise Gleason:

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

We’re also joined by Dr. Craig Cole, a board certified hematologist. Dr. Cole leads multiple clinical trials in multiple myeloma, and has worked extensively with patient advocacy groups to empower, educate, and bring equitable care to everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Cole.

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah, and thank you for the invitation.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

While this conversation can be broadly beneficial, in this program, we are speaking to the unique needs of myeloma patients and families. So let’s get started with how to explain the sequence of myeloma treatment, and how available clinical trials fit in. So I’m going to start with you, Dr. Cole. We know that there has been rapid advancement in the myeloma sphere. Can you speak to how the introduction of novel drugs, treatment combinations and therapeutic modalities may pose some challenges for healthcare providers as they attempt to explain the sequence of treatment in relation to available clinical trials?

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah, that’s a really good question, especially because so many things have been changing in myeloma, and such a rapid secession. It really, it’s been kind of not only an incredible transformative past 20 years in myeloma as we’ve moved away from using chemotherapy to using really targeted therapy, but really in the past five to 10 years, and us using immunotherapy and now T-cell directed therapy, it’s been transformative.

And it’s been very, very difficult for myeloma experts to kind of configure how these treatments are sequenced, and how the clinical trials are conducted. But basically, we have gone from using single drug therapies to using combination therapies for refractory patients to using multiple modalities and as upfront therapy for myeloma. Up until today, us using four-drug induction therapies with IMiDs proteasome inhibitors and now immunotherapy with anti-CD38 therapy being used upfront.

Now, we have…we’re on the fact we are past the horizon of using T-cell directed therapy for relapsed/refractory myeloma. Those are now being put in combinations. And at the last meetings, we saw data in combining talquetamab with the bispecific antibody with pomalidomide (Pomalyst) having incredible response rates to 99 percent to a 100 percent. The combination of using daratumumab (Darzalex)with teclistamab (Tecvidli) at ASCO a couple of years ago having very, very, very high response rates for relapsed/refractory patients.

And, of course, the combination of using two bispecific antibodies talquetamab (Talvey) and teclistamab together having, again, in these incredible response rates and for relapse refractory myeloma. So in very quick orders, we’re going to see those therapies moving further and further upfront, which is a huge benefit to patients.

But it can be kind of difficult to keep up with all the changes in myeloma, especially as we move from using these drugs as single agents, to using them in combination. And not only to speak to using some of the newer drugs like Mezigdomide in combination with daratumumab, having one of the CELMoDs having very, very high response rates.

And so it’s exciting, but it does, it’s a challenge to discuss clinical trials with patients, because so many things have changed. We now have clinical trials across the spectrum of myeloma, using bispecifics as upfront and smoldering myeloma, which was at the last ASH meeting to using again, more novel therapies upfront and relapsed/refractory space and in the maintenance therapy space.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Well, that’s all very exciting, and I appreciate you sharing that because as you’ve said, there’s been a really kind of an explosion for lack of a better word, in the numbers of treatments that are available as well as increasing improvements and results. But as you shared, having all of these different modalities available can definitely cause some confusion even among those who do this every day. Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Gleason?

Charise Gleason:

No, I think, well, I think Dr. Cole described that perfectly. It’s an exciting time, and also a challenging time, which just really brings you back to that team care approach to your patient, and how all of us need to work hard to keep up to date on the latest information. Dr. Cole mentioned quadruplet therapy, and we’ve got two clinical trials that have essentially told us. if you add that quadruple therapy and add that antibody upfront, you drive that deeper response.

So we change our practice probably sooner in the academic settings. And it’s really how do we get this out to other healthcare providers in our referral basis that send patients to us? And then also, how do we do maintenance? And I think Dr. Cole would agree most of us risk-stratify for that maintenance setting too, whether it’s one drug or multi-drug, depending on our patient’s disease.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:  

Wonderful. So certainly, this conversation alludes to the fact that the clinical trials regarding these medications are also increasingly complex. And so I’m going to go to you, Ms. Gleason, because we know that nurses and advanced practice providers provide understanding of these trials, including potential benefits and risks, and all of the things that are required as they consider participating in a trial. And then, as you all have both shared, there is some tailoring around the treatment with regard to the disease state, whether it’s relapsing, whether it’s refractory. So with that in mind, do you have any best practices around tailoring the trial conversation with regard to specific patient needs and situations?

Charise Gleason:

Well, I’ll start with, we bring that discussion with all of our patients about the potential of a clinical trial from the start. And so we’re all versed on that, we all look to what clinical trial could be available for this patient. So we’re used to having that conversation. So our teams all need to be educated, participate in our research meetings, so we are ready to discuss a trial on that. We sometimes get to spend more time with patients, and we get to know our patients. These are patients we see frequently, and so we can have those conversations.

You might have somebody who’s starting to have a biochemical progression. It’s not time to change their therapy yet, but we’re already thinking about what’s that next line of therapy. And so as we start to approach that with clinical trials and standard of care, and opening that dialogue, so it’s really that communication and that rapport and relationship you have with your patient, and that care partner. So an ongoing conversation about the different treatments that are available to them.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

So we know that patients with myeloma are living longer lives based on everything that you all have shared, and with that comes a different set of options and challenges.  And you also have alluded to this team-based approach, Ms. Gleason, and we know that there’s a critical role that advanced practice providers play in the myeloma clinical trial setting. So I’d love for you to speak to that..the role that advanced practice providers play in myeloma clinical trials.

Charise Gleason:

Yeah, the advanced practice providers have started specializing like our physicians do, and we have that collaborative relationship, and we are part of that team approach to take care of our patients. So we’re identifying patients for potential clinical trials. Our scope of practice does vary a little bit from state to state. So in some cases, we can also enroll patients. If we’re not able to do that, though, we can already have discussed the trial, discussed side effects, presented them with the consent. So when they do meet with the physician, they’ve already seen a lot of that information, and then they can ask further questions with the physician.

I think the other big role that we play in the clinic setting is we see these patients, we see these patients for follow-up. So we’re doing a lot of management of the side effects, supportive care through the trials. We might be a little more available during the week, so if a patient’s here on another day, and they’ve got something going on, we’re answering those portal questions, and calling patients back and just really collaborating with our physicians and also the research team.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Dr. Cole, I’m going to turn the conversation back to you. As a physician, I know that often, there are some barriers just as part of our everyday practice that can hinder our work. And so I’d love for you to speak to any unforeseen or outdated practice related barriers that you feel may hinder your work, and the work of your colleagues specifically as it relates to myeloma trials. And then if you could also share some potential solutions to those barriers.

Dr. Craig Cole: 

Yes, super good question. I love this question. There are a lot that are out there that I…barriers that I hear providers talk about at other academic centers and in the community. One is that patients don’t want to go on clinical trials that they…and some of that is subconscious bias. Sometimes those are true, true bias. We know the FDA knows all the drug companies all, and I think every myeloma provider knows that there have been horrific disparities in the enrollment of patients in clinical trials based on race and age and ethnicity that the FDA looked at some of the data of trials that were going for FDA approval, and found that over the past 10 years, and that in those trials, that only 4 percent of the population of the trials were Black.

While in the United States, the number of Black myeloma patients is about 20 percent, over 20 percent of the myeloma population. So that’s a huge disparity. And what I hear is that while older patients and Black and Hispanic and Asian patients don’t want to go on clinical trials, and that’s not true. That’s been shown in multiple clinical trials that actually, the patients of different ethnicities and races actually are more likely to go on clinical trials than other racial groups. And so I think that it’s really important to keep that in mind that patients really…that really the ownership of getting a patient on a clinical trial is really on us to present the clinical trial option to them with every single conversation that we have.

 Some of the other barriers to clinical trials is, and Ms. Gleason had mentioned this, what they do at through the Emory system is that, well, the nurses and the other staff in the cancer center aren’t aware of the clinical trials, that when a patient goes through the clinic, they talk to more than just the provider. They talk to the treatment nurses, they talk to the intake people, they talked to the MAs, they talked to the scheduling people.

And there was a study that was done a few years ago in looking at patients who were given consent forms and declined clinical trials. And they found that a lot of patients declined clinical trials, well, because they said that, well, their doctor didn’t want them on the trial. And when they looked further into that, they saw that, well, the doctor offered them a clinical trial, but when they discussed the clinical trial with a nurse practitioner, when they discussed that trial with a treatment nurse or the MA or any of the other staff, when they didn’t know about the clinical trial, that was considered well, if you don’t know about the clinical trial, it must not be good for me. And then they withdrew from the trial.

So just like what they do, what Ms. Gleason had said, we have an all-in approach. We make sure that the treatment nurses, the MAs, the intake people know what we’re doing, know about our clinical trials, because that’s the fun part about what we do. The fun part is when we say, look, my goodness, this four-drug therapy had a 100 percent response rate. That shouldn’t be left in the physician compartment. It really shouldn’t be left in the provider compartment. That excitement should be clinic-wide. And when you have that all-in approach where everybody’s involved, everyone’s excited about clinical trials, it produces a culture of clinical trials that everybody wants to be part of, and the patients then can jump on that bus and feel comfortable participating in the trial.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wow. Thank you for elucidating that. Both the issue of the health disparities that we see in clinical trials and the need to diversify that clinical trial patient population, some of those biases that exist, as well as really lifting up this idea of creating a culture of clinical trials. I love the language that you use for that and the idea that everyone throughout the entire clinical encounter needs to be both aware of, and excited about the clinical trials that are underway. So I appreciate that.

That leads us nicely into our next segment, which is really focusing on strategies for fellow healthcare providers for initiating clinical trial conversations early in the myeloma patient journey. So I’m going to go back to you, Ms. Gleason. We’ve been talking about this team-based approach. We know that nurses serve as key coordinators of care in the myeloma trial setting, as well as other members of the healthcare team. So from your perspective, what are some recommended strategies that you can share to encourage advanced practice providers, specifically how to initiate the clinical trial conversation at the outset of care?

Charise Gleason:  

First, we need to educate our advanced practice providers. So for new APPs coming into our system, part of their onboarding is the research mission, exposing them to the clinical trials, exposing them to what we have available. We have a weekly research meeting, I’m sure Dr. Cole has similar practices. And then our group has a separate meeting once a week, where we meet for two hours. The myeloma team, we have APPs who are off that day who call in for this meeting, because we go over our patients, we talk about what’s, clinical trials are available, that’s just how we practice and we think about that.

I would like to add to that, referring to a center early is so essential as well, and for us to start having that conversation. And I’ll talk a little bit to build on something Dr. Cole said with our patient population.  In Atlanta, in our database, 40 percent of our data is based on Black patients. And we enroll about 32% to 33% of Black patients on clinical trials. And what our work on trials has showed us too, if you give the same access to every patient, you have good outcomes and good outcomes for Black patients, if not better, than white patients. So we all need to be versed on that, whether you’re the research nurse, the clinic nurse, the physician, the advanced practice. And so we really do bring that approach to taking care of our patients.

And then, managing those side effects and having that open dialogue. So patients aren’t surprised by things. And I’ll use talquetamab for instance. We have a patient who is still on the original trial, who relapsed on a BCMA targeted therapy. Early on, these side effects were new to everybody. And she wanted to come off the trial month end. And it was that education piece and working with her, holding the drug, that now almost two years later, she’s still in remission, tolerating the drug. And so those are the stories and these are the experiences we have. We’re giving really good drugs on clinical trials and patients are responding well.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That’s an amazing success story. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Dr. Cole, with regard to potential strategies for healthcare providers, what are some things that they can implement for initiating these clinical trial conversations early in the journey, particularly in the current environment?

Dr. Craig Cole: 

Yeah. And Ms. Gleason had mentioned this at kind of the top of our talk about having those conversations on day one. On day one of our patients coming in either as a second opinion, as a new diagnosis, as in whatever setting, we talk about…we have a list that we go through with the patient that talks about their stage or the disease, how we’re going to follow up. And there’s a line that I have to address, which is, clinical trials. So I mentioned our clinical trials, I mentioned on day one. And I think one strategy that other healthcare providers can take is that, even if you don’t have a clinical trial at that time, so right at this moment, we don’t have an upfront clinical trial.

We have one for maintenance therapy, post-transplant, but we don’t have an upfront trial. I mention that. I say that there are clinical trials that are available for your myeloma. Right now we don’t have a clinical trial for upfront myeloma, but we can refer you for a second opinion for an upfront trial if you’re interested or…and we have a clinical trial in maintenance. So that sets the groundwork that we’re going to talk about clinical trials on every visit. And that it doesn’t come as a surprise. Because the last thing you want to do is that someone is having a relapse and you say, “Oh, we’re going to talk about clinical trials today.”  Because then it’s like, “Oh my goodness, this is a desperation.” This is a desperation move, and it puts a lot of anxiety when you frame it, and we need to do this now as opposed to having on day one.

The second thing that I think really helps is getting patients involved in the myeloma community, especially with the support groups having not only the patients, but their care providers and families involved in the myeloma community. Because the myeloma communities through a lot of the support agencies like the IMF, the MMRF, the HealthTree, they have a very strong clinical trial culture. And when patients get involved, not only is that empowering to see other myeloma patients doing well, but to hear other myeloma patients talk about their experiences in clinical trials really, really helps. And I think the last thing that we use to help patients, go through clinical trials, is a couple of other things, is one, every time we talk about treatment options, if that is maintenance, if that is smoldering, if that is a relapsed/refractory therapy, we always put clinical trials in that conversation.

 Again, even if we don’t have that clinical trial at our institution, we talk about this as an option that we could refer you out to. And, and then we always talk about…I think one other little thing is that every visit that patients have, I somehow include some of the new things that are happening in myeloma. Now, my patients kind of expect it. They expect. They know when December and June is because when I see them after ASH and ASCO and sometimes they’re like asking, “So what’s new?” And once we get into that groove, they see, gosh. There are response rates that are off the charts with some of these new things. These patients are involved in clinical trials and the myeloma and multiple myeloma research is progressing at such a rate and things are getting better that patients want to be involved in it.

So we’re always talking about new things. Do I go into depth of detail with talquetamab and pomalidomide. I don’t go into depth of detail. And I say, where I was this clinical trials at our last ASH meeting that combined these two drugs for a relapsed/refractory myeloma, even patients who were refractory to some of the drugs you’re on now. And response rate was like 100 percent. And then when I talk about those clinical trials in the future, they’ll remember, man, that guy was talking, he’s all upset about these clinical trials. Maybe I want to be involved in them. So that’s kind of my few strategies that I use. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:  

I love that. And what I really hear both of you saying is this idea of normalizing conversations about clinical trials and not introducing them as like a Hail Mary, so to speak, but really from the very beginning, letting patients and care partners know that this is a viable treatment option. So I think that is wonderful. And I can say like, your excitement is contagious for me, so I can only imagine how excited the patients that you work with feel.

So let’s move on to our final topic. How do we mitigate and manage concerns despite all these wonderful things that both of you have shared? I’m sure that patients and family members have concerns about myeloma clinical trials. And so I’ll start with you, Ms. Gleason. And as you hear concerns from patients and families over the years possibly related to fear of randomization, fear of getting the placebo, you all have mentioned some uneasiness about adverse effects. How do you effectively mitigate and manage these concerns with patients and their family members and care partners?

Charise Gleason:

Yeah, you just have to continue to have open communication. And if you’re, if a patient is accustomed to you mentioning clinical trials, then when you present one to them, right? They’re a little more open to it. But not everybody starts with us. And we get referrals in midway and different parts and different paths along the way. But patients we do hear, “I don’t want to get a placebo.” Or you’ll mention a clinical trial and somebody will say, “Am I ready for hospice?”

And it’s, you have to go back and start that education again that, no, you’re getting good treatment on this, a registry trial, for instance, you’re going to get standard of care treatment plus or minus something else, right? And so we really have to go back and educate that you are getting treatment. You’re going to be watched closer than any of our other patients actually.

You’ve got a whole team around you that’s talking about your trial and our patients every week. And so I think that our excitement and our being positive, we can get those patients to enroll on trials. I think something that makes me really happy is, we keep a list of every treatment line, and when you go through and it’s like standard of care, clinical trial, clinical trial, standard…it’s we’ve done the right thing then, right? Our patient has had full advantage of what’s available to them when we do that. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

What about you, Dr. Cole? Do you have anything to add with regard to managing the concerns that come up?

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah. The one thing that I tell patients, and I tell patients one-to-one, and when I do talks for some of the efficacy groups that I tell lots of patients that. That in 2024, myeloma trials are incredibly competitive. And the only, the best, best drugs, now float to the top as part of our clinical trial portfolio. There were days I remember begging companies for clinical trials saying, “Please, please think about myeloma.” And we were struggling.

Now, it is incredibly competitive, and that competition does a fantastic thing for patients because what we see in the clinical trial portfolio are drugs that are safer and safer and safer, and drugs that are more effective and more effective. When you go to these meetings and the expectation is that our response rate needs to be over 60%, then you know that the clinical trial mail you, that we work with them, is of a super high quality, which you really can’t say for a lot of other types of cancer.

So I tell patients that their fears that they have are absolutely justified. And one thing we teach the fellows, the residents and the medical students, is that you validate those concerns and you listen to those concerns and you don’t ignore it or blow through it. That you absolutely…those are the most important parts of that conversation. And if you don’t validate it, the patient says, “Well, I have a fear of randomization.” And you go, “Hmm, there’s no such thing.” Then that’s not validating. And that’s not even listening. That’s just moving on because you don’t have that concern, but you’re not bringing that, you’re not validating the patient’s concern. And so you have to be very, very careful in doing that because there are multiple studies that have shown those are the big concerns.

Also, bringing up the things that are facilitators for clinical trials, that if there is an opportunity for reimbursement for travel or reimbursement for hotel stays or reimbursement that we say that this trial has a reimbursement program, or if we say that use other things that help facilitate clinical trials like speaking to the family, not just speaking to a patient, but speaking to the caregiver and speaking to the extended family that that patient will have a conversation with are really important conversation because the more people that you can talk to, that’s part of that patient’s decision-making group, which can be very different from patient to patient based on their culture, the more likely you are to get a consensus among that decision-making group for the patient to go on a clinical trial.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Those are great tips. Thank you both so much. It’s time to wrap up our roundtable. I must say I have truly enjoyed this conversation as always. I have learned a lot. I’m sure that our audience has learned a lot. In closing, I’m going to go to each of you just to share maybe one takeaway that you’d like to leave with the audience. So I’ll start with you Dr. Cole, one takeaway.

Dr. Craig Cole: 

One takeaway. I actually thought about this, but I think that the biggest takeaway is, if I can squeeze two in.

Is that, is to remember that basically they’re all patients want to be involved in clinical trials and the ownership of having patients on clinical trials is really on us to really talk to them over a longitudinal period, to talk about clinical trials, to have them involved. To not look at a patient saying, “No, they don’t want to be on clinical trial.” That you really engage that patient to tell them about really the incredible progress that we’ve made, how competitive clinical trials are and how exciting it is to be part of that research environment. And that would be my one, my two sort of closing thoughts.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And what about you, Ms. Gleason?

Charise Gleason:

Dr. Cole said it well. Please discuss this with your patient. Listen to them. Listen to their concerns. Don’t make decisions for them based on bias that maybe you’re bringing in. Don’t make decisions based on maybe it’s too far. Patients drive hours to go on clinical trials, and let’s give them the information and have that conversation.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wonderful. Well, thanks again to both of you, and thank you all for tuning in to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester. Have an amazing day.

PODCAST | HCP Roundtable: Best Practices for Talking About Clinical Trials With Myeloma Patients

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Clinical trials represent tomorrow’s medicine today, yet not every patient confronting a myeloma diagnosis is informed about all available care options. Surprisingly, some patients and their care partners are never introduced to the possibility of participating in clinical trials. How can we alter the course? What strategies can healthcare professionals (HCPs) employ to effectively communicate information about clinical trials and guide patients through next steps?

Experts Dr. Beth Faiman and RuthAnn Gordon share important insights into understanding the critical role of clinical trial nurses and how they educate and mentor nursing professionals around best practices for broaching clinical trial conversations.

Download Resource Guide|Descargar guía de recursos

Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, pediatrician and CEO of Your GPS Doc. EPEP is a Patient Empowerment Network program that serves as a secure space for healthcare providers to learn techniques for improving physician-patient communication and overcoming practice barriers. Today we are tackling best practices for talking about clinical trials with myeloma patients. One significant challenge for some providers is initiating conversations about clinical trials and determining the appropriate timing of those conversations.

While clinical trials are often described as embodying tomorrow’s medicine today, not every patient facing a myeloma diagnosis is well-informed about all available care options. Astonishingly, some patients and their care partners are never even introduced to the possibility of participating in clinical trials. How can we shift this trend? How do we make these conversations a standard part of healthcare discussions at the outset of care?

What strategies can we as healthcare professionals employ to effectively convey information about clinical trials and guide patients and families through the next steps? We are joined today by RuthAnn Gordon, Director of Clinical Trial Nursing at Memorial Sloan Kettering. Ms. Gordon oversees clinical trial nurses, and develops and implements policies, procedures, standards, and systems to improve quality and compliance in the conduct of clinical research. We are also joined by Dr. Beth Faiman, a nurse practitioner and research oncology professional at the Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Faiman is an active author, presenter, and educator on the topic of multiple myeloma. Thank you both for joining me for this very important conversation.

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Thank you for having us.

Dr. Nicole Rochester: So we have a lot to discuss as it relates to best practices for talking about clinical trials with myeloma patients and their families. And I think this is always a topic that deserves so much conversation, likely more than we will be able to dedicate today. And while it can be a broadly beneficial conversation to have, in the program today we are speaking to the unique needs of myeloma patients and their families.

Some of the topics we’ll tackle today are understanding the critical role of clinical trial nurses, healthcare provider to healthcare provider recommended strategies to effectively communicate about pretrial eligibility determination and the consenting process, and how to educate and mentor nursing professionals in community hospital settings and beyond, guiding them to assist patients and families through the subsequent steps of participating in a clinical trial.

So let’s get started by talking about the role of clinical trial nurses. And, Ms. Gordon, I’m going to start with you. We know that research nurses are at the front line of treating patients. Can you speak to your role, and how you believe it has changed over time?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Absolutely. First, I can tell you that I’ve been doing research nursing for over 20 years and really love the work. I think it’s important for patients to have that support when they’re going through a clinical trial. And so we’ve done a lot of work to make sure that they have that support. So our role is to really be able to guide the patient through the journey, making sure that they’re educated on what they can expect on the clinical trial, and not only in terms of what maybe the drug might be doing them in terms of side effects, but what is their schedule going to look like? When are they going to have to come in? How long are they going to be here? What does that mean? And how do we support them with their quality of life while they go through all the responsibilities that they as patients have on a clinical trial, and what do they need to do to get ready for that experience?

And so we’re guiding them, we’re educating them, we’re ensuring that they do understand the potential side effects, but do understand also what their role is in the clinical trial and what they can expect. And I think that in terms of what has changed is that we have really put more value on the fact that having that nurse that has the expertise in the clinical trial and really can gate keep all of the patient care coordination that that involves from a clinician experience and from a clinician perspective, has really helped to ensure that our patients are ready, that we can do our very complex trials. Because trials have changed so much in the last decade.

There’s so many more expectations. There’s so many more things that need to happen while they’re on the trial that really having that clinician doing that with the patient has improved our ability to do those kinds of complex trials. And so I think that really recognizing that having that clinician perspective at the partner, at the bedside with the patient has really helped us to expand the kind of trials that we can do.  

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And as a physician who acknowledges that the time that we are allotted with our patients is often very little, it really makes a lot of sense that you all are able to bridge those gaps in the patient education, and are critically important to this work. So thank you for the work that you do. Dr. Faiman, we know that patients with myeloma are living longer, and they’re dealing with a different set of challenges than perhaps they previously encountered. So can you speak to the critical role of nurses specifically in the myeloma trial setting today?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I must first start by saying that the successes in the treatment of multiple myeloma can be owed to the brave participation of the patients and the caregivers. So let’s not forget about the caregivers to support the patients with clinical trials. And I started as a clinical trials nurse in the 1990s managing these patients, and a nurse practitioner in 2002. And now my role is different also as a researcher. And so I have seen firsthand all these drug developments. And so the difference from before when we had very few available therapies to now we have an armamentarium of drugs, and so deciding whether or not to participate in a clinical trial is super important. And how can we support our patients who are now living a longer lifespan with all these cumulative physical and financial issues? How can the nurses support the patients to get the access to the drugs and access to the financial resources they need so that they continue living a good quality of life? I know we have a very robust program to talk about later on, but I think nurses can fill that critical gap of finding resources for patients to allow them to participate in clinical trials to live a better life.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And thank you for acknowledging the role of the patients and their caregivers in all of the growth that we’ve seen in this field, in the research. Ms. Gordon, we know that diversity in clinical trials is lacking. Certainly there have been lots of reports about that. It’s gotten increasing attention over the last few years. There’s now regulations related to that. And while things are changing, we have a long way to go. And it’s also important that we celebrate the wins that we’ve achieved along the way. So my question for you is, do research nurses play a role in increasing diversity in clinical trials and also in trial innovation?

RuthAnn Gordon:  

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that one of the things that is important is community outreach, right? And so we have a lot of opportunities for research nurses. Well, as in large academic settings, a focus needs to be on exploring ways to have partnerships with our community organizations. And once those connections are established, the research nurses can play an extremely pivotal role in ensuring that we’re not only at point-of-consent educating, but way before that, getting involved in pre-screening activities in order to ensure that we’re looking at a diverse population.

And also to help with providers that are in the community that may have more advanced questions, and having the nurse being partners with those clinicians in order to help them get through the questions that they might have in a more timely manner. And so the research nurses that are attached to those academic centers have a pivotal role in ensuring that the community centers have support.

And in doing the pre-screening, I think is an important feature of having the research nurse also be involved in that process. And so I think that…we know that the community has needs, and we know that we need to increase that access. So looking at opportunities to partner with those settings, to me, with the research nurse, is really critical, and I think is an important way that we can do that.

Educating is, I’ll keep going back to that, when you get hands on that patient, making sure that they understand what they can expect. And any misconceptions. Clearing up misconceptions about being on clinical trials is really important so that when you have a patient that is eligible, that they feel comfortable and confident in joining that study.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Dr. Faiman, I’m going to come back to you. And my question for you is, can you speak to unforeseen or outdated practice-related barriers that may actually hinder the work of research nurses?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. So I wanna preface this by saying in my mind. I think that both oncology nurses and advanced practice providers are highly trained professionals that should function within a multidisciplinary team. So that team, just as you mentioned before, Dr. Rochester, was the physician has limited time, maybe even the advanced practice provider has limited time. How can we harness all of our resources to provide the best care to that patient? And clinical trials are one of them. Clinical trials will offer support so that the patient can have access to a pharmacist, a social worker, a dedicated nurse, a dedicated line to call if they’re having a symptom. But to speak to some of the outdated procedures, again, it goes to scope of the practice. No matter how highly trained they are experientially or with credentialing, there are practice barriers within the hospital organization within state laws.

The nice thing about clinical trials though, is that nurses in most institutions are very able to watch that clinical protocol. They’ll look for who needs to hold a medication because of toxicity, consult with the provider, and then they’ll say, “Okay, hold your dose. And when your toxicity resolves, reduce it one dose level, and come back for labs,” or whatever that would entail. So while there are outdated practices historically, I think that within clinical trials nursing it provides some more autonomy for oncology nurses, again, as a part of that multidisciplinary team to enhance patient care.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That’s wonderful. Are there any additional solutions that you think are necessary as we continue to see advancements in myeloma?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Continuing education for these highly trained providers. And so those kind of…the education though, I’ll tell you, I think should focus a lot on the disparities in clinical research. One of the things I’m passionate about is highlighting the implicit and explicit biases that are in clinical research. Many of us will say, “Oh, that person won’t be a good clinical trial candidate because they live too far away or they don’t have a caregiver.” And so I’m really…I tell all of my nurses, nurse practitioners, even physicians, just ask a patient. Don’t think that because they live an hour away, they’re not going to want to participate in a well-designed clinical trial without even asking them. That doesn’t even allow them the opportunity to provide feedback.

And then not to mention all of the resources that are available to patients that provide, that participate in clinical trials. Many of the research studies will provide transportation or an overnight stay or some nominal, again, not trying to coerce the patients, but some nominal reimbursement for expenses to allow them to have access to that drug. So I can talk on and on, because I’m so passionate about this topic. But being aware that biases exist, through continuing education will hopefully enhance the diversity of clinical trials so that patients will be able to have access to care, and then that the clinical trial results are representative of the actual population of who we’re treating.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. I can definitely feel they’re both of your passion, and that’s why it’s so important that we have you here with us today for this conversation. So let’s shift focus a little bit and begin to talk about communication between healthcare providers to effectively communicate about pretrial eligibility determination and the consent process. So I’m going to go right back to you, Dr. Faiman. What do you think are the unique barriers that providers face when they’re speaking about myeloma trials to patients and their families?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Right. So I think multiple myeloma is unique in that there are such an explosion of new therapies within the last decade. There hasn’t been such momentum in any other cancer such as multiple myeloma. But, unfortunately, there are challenges such as language barriers and communication problems that overarching with all the different specialties. The geographic I had already mentioned in a previous discussion about the geographic barriers to participate in clinical trials, not meeting inclusion criteria, I think it takes an astute nurse or advanced practice provider or physician to now sequence the therapy.

So for example, they have new therapies such as BCMA-targeted drugs that are available through cellular therapy trials or bispecific antibody trials. And without getting too specific into the drugs, you need a specialist to be able to say, “Okay, if I give you this drug today, that will exclude you from a clinical trial that might be very innovative and promising in the future.”

So those are unique barriers to accessing clinical trials or standard therapies for that matter because of the plethora of therapies that are available. So getting in, having patients get in with a myeloma specialist, they might not see them on a regular basis, maybe employ telehealth techniques, see them once and then virtually connect, share information about what might be available. Those are ways that you can provide access to patients, caregivers, and others throughout their disease trajectory because they’re living longer than ever.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Which is a wonderful thing.

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Ms. Gordon, you’ve been doing this for a long time. In your experience, what are tried and true strategies that healthcare providers can implement to effectively communicate with their patients about clinical trials when speaking to pretrial eligibility determination and the consent process specifically?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think that an important thing whenever we’re talking to our patients is to really understand where they are with understanding and how they learn. So it’s important for us to know what their health literacy is so that we’re making sure that we’re talking in a language that they can understand and using words that are appropriate. And so that’s key. Clinical trials have a lot of comprehensive and complex assessments that are needed for pretrial eligibility, right?

So I think it’s really important to make sure that we are being transparent as to what they can expect. We don’t want them to have surprises later on and then not feel like they want to continue with that process. So I do recommend to my providers and my research nurses, sometimes get out the hard stuff up front. Know if they’re going to be there for 12-hour PKs. Let them know. It shouldn’t be a surprise. And I think that that really helps patients. First, they get involved in the process, they know what to expect, and you can really have more confidence in their adherence.

The other thing is to allow time for the conversations, right? We need to allow time for our patients to ask questions. And the consent process can be lengthy. There’s a lot on the document. Sometimes it’s quite long. So you wanna make sure that they’re in a state of mind to have the conversation, that you allow time for questions, and that you make it an exchange between the two of you. It’s a dialogue. It should be. And you should come with understanding where they’re at; understanding a little bit about what’s going on behind the scenes, right? What’s happening at home is important as you’re talking about pretrial eligibility, as you’re talking about what they can expect on trial, just to get a full picture of them.

So I think that those to me are very helpful. Providing take-home information to the patient so they have something to reflect on later is also really important, because they’re not going to grasp everything in that one session. And consenting is like an ongoing process, right? You have one conversation, you probably have 10 more.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That is wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I really appreciate that both of you have highlighted the importance of health literacy, and meeting our patients and families where they are and making sure that they understand, and this idea that it’s a continuum: That there may be multiple conversations that will be necessary. Dr. Faiman, as the myeloma treatment landscape continues to expand thanks to clinical trials, how are clinical trial conversations evolving, and what do you feel should be top of mind?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

That’s an excellent question. Over 20 different drugs are available in various combinations. And so we talked about sequencing very briefly about having patients that have access to clinical trials, making sure they’re not exposed to this class, or maybe they needed to be exposed to this class of drug before they can get drug B, for example. And so sharing mutual information through shared decision-making, again, the patients sharing information and goals of care, the provider and healthcare team mutually sharing information, bring in your social worker or pharmacist, etcetera, and then you can mutually agree on a treatment for the patient. And so that is something we did not have 20 years ago. There were very few effective agents.

I like to remind patients when we provide clinical trial consent forms, that the language is written by lawyers, but it’s intended to protect you. I overemphasize that this is voluntary, and you can withdraw your consent at any time. But I try to go back and highlight why there’s stringent, plus or minus one day, maybe you can’t take off three days to go on a holiday weekend, because we really need to dose this drug on that day and obtain this blood information. So again, having the patients understand what’s involved in the clinical trials and then being able to provide information.

I like to also offer handouts. So the International Myeloma Foundation has clinical trials and diversity handouts. And then another one that I really like is by the FDA that describes the importance of clinical trials. I give that to everybody. So at diagnosis, if you’re on a standard care treatment, you’re not receiving a clinical trial. Everybody that comes into my office that I see for myeloma amyloidosis and related disorders, I would say, “You are a candidate for clinical trial now, but if I or somebody else does not involve you or ask you to participate, then ask us. Just ask us about clinical trials.” I even have a pen that says “Ask me about clinical trials” so that everybody can see it.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

I love the idea of a pen. Wonderful. Well, let’s move on to how to educate and mentor nursing professionals. Both of you are nursing professionals, and you’ve clearly highlighted in this program so far the importance of the role of nurses in this clinical trial process. So, Ms. Gordon, I’m going to go to you. We know that one significant challenge for some providers is actually initiating conversations about clinical trials and also determining the appropriate timing. Can you speak to whether care variation may pose challenges in community hospital settings, perhaps compared to academic hospitals?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the most important things about when to talk to the patient is every time, anytime, right? I think that we should be asking them if they’re interested in clinical trials. If they haven’t been engaged in that, we should be talking to them about, “You know, there’s maybe a chance at some time in our partnership together that we will be talking about clinical trials.” And introducing that up front I think is really important so that we don’t leave clinical trials sort of as a last thought and the patient have that feeling.

And I think that for the community setting, that’s one of the things that may be a challenge, is because it is hard to put a patient on a clinical trial and run it from a community setting. So it’s, how do we give them the support and resources so that it’s not so hard and that they do offer it and talk to their patients as much as possible about it? And I feel like that’s what we need to do more with these partnerships with academic settings, is that we have to give them support so that it’s not so hard, and that that clinical trials first of mind to them when they’re planning care for their patients.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

I see a theme here: Partnership, collaboration. Dr. Faiman, as we continue on this topic, and as someone who has been a consistent figure in the continuum of care, how do you guide other nursing professionals when it comes to clinical trial communication? Do you have specific tips or tricks or things that you can share with the audience?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. So I think I have a unique perspective having been a clinical trials nurse, nurse practitioner, and now I conduct, independently, clinical trials. And so I, throughout that whole journey, so I share my experiences and some of the key tips that I like to share with other nurses and healthcare providers is just coming to the patient level. And as Ruthie had said a moment ago, at each encounter you have that opportunity to educate that patient about their labs, what’s their remission status, their disease status, what drugs are they on, what worked, what didn’t work? And the ones that are in remission for a while, one, two, three, five years, we have discussions about next therapy. So I say to them, “Okay, now, we have a great clinical trial. I think everything’s going very well with your disease remission status, but let’s make sure that you know what might be the next best thing for you.”

And I start planting that seed, giving them information about next therapy so that it’s not that, “Oh my gosh, I thought I was never going to relapse and now I need another treatment.” It’s okay, we have a game plan, we’re here in this together, let’s get some information. So disseminating this at this critical information to nurses at national conferences about the different drugs that are available, the toxicities, and how to offer them to our patients, I think is really important. But really just cheering in that partnership, as we just talked about, is really key to success, I think.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Great. Well, it’s time to wrap up our roundtable. And I have truly enjoyed this conversation. I have personally learned a lot. I’m sure that our audience will learn a lot as well. So I’d like to get closing thoughts from each of you. So I’ll start with you, Ms. Gordon. What is the most important takeaway message that you wanna leave with other healthcare professionals who may be watching?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Thank you. First, thank you for having me at this. This has been an amazing experience, and I want the providers out there to not be afraid of clinical trials, to look at opportunities to work with nurses to help support you in those clinical trials, to have the conversations with your patients early and often, and to work with your community partners.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

And thank you. Thank you, Ms. Gordon. What about you, Dr. Faiman?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Well, I guess I would say never underestimate for the nurses, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, social workers, physicians, anyone on the healthcare team. Never underestimate the unique role that you enact in the care of patients with myeloma or other disorders. Use your voice to speak up. If you think a patient is a candidate for a clinical trial but that physician or other provider hasn’t recommended it to them, then tell them why. You can refer them yourself as well. Ask patients about barriers to participation. Is it physical, financial, social? You can’t take time off of work. And then provide that assistance in counseling. It takes a big effort to support our patients, but we would’ve never gotten to where we are with treatment of multiple myeloma in 2024 without patient participation in clinical trials. So whatever we can do to enhance diversity, minimize bias, and support our patients, please try to do the best to do your part.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Well, thank you both, Ms. Gordon, Dr. Faiman, for this awesome conversation. We have learned a lot about how we got to where we are with myeloma. And thank you again for pointing out early on, it’s the patients and their caregivers and their participation in clinical trials that has led to the landscape where we are now with so many drugs available. And that really highlights the importance of clinical trials. We talked about diversity of clinical trials. 

We talked about the implicit and explicit biases that all of us have, and that sometimes may preclude us from recommending trials for patients that can benefit from this therapy. And we’ve talked about the importance of having these conversations, not once, not twice, but every time that you are in the presence of a patient and their family. And also just the partnership and the collaboration that has already taken place, and that we hope to continue to foster as we move forward. So thank you both again, and thank you all for tuning in to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients Program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester. 

PODCAST: Thrive | Advice for Managing Potential CAR T-Cell Therapy Side Effects

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Dr. Adriana Rossi, a myeloma expert and researcher, discusses how CAR T-cell therapy has revolutionized care, the process for undergoing this therapy, common side effects of this treatment, and advice for patients considering this option. Dr. Rossi also shares updates in CAR T-cell therapy research and explains what she’s excited about in myeloma care.

Dr. Adriana Rossi is Co-director of the CAR T and stem cell transplant program at the Center for Excellence for Multiple Myeloma at Mount Sinai Health System in New York City. Learn more about Dr. Rossi.

Download Resource Guide

See More From Thrive CAR T-Cell Therapy

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello, and welcome. I am your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is part of our Thrive series, where we will discuss what to expect and how to manage side effects of CAR T-cell therapy.  

Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining us is Dr. Adriana Rossi. Dr. Rossi, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Thank you so much. I am one of the codirectors of the CAR T program at Mount Sinai in New York City and thrilled to be with you today.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you. Since we’ll be discussing the ins and outs of CAR T-cell therapy, I thought we could start with your perspective as a researcher in the field. How has this therapy revolutionized myeloma care?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It absolutely has. And I would say in time we’ve had – this is now our fourth revolution. Stem cell transplants was the first time we actually achieved what we call a complete remission in at least a few patients, making myeloma disappear.  

Then, we had the second revolution with the novel agents. Now, we had drug therapies that were giving us these complete remission still at about a 30 percent rate. And then, the monoclonal antibodies were the most recent revolution. And currently, we are in what we call the T-cell redirection.   

It really has been driven by CAR T-cell therapies and something we call bispecific antibodies, which also use your patient’s T cells to kill the myeloma. We are now seeing absolutely unprecedented response rates, meaning almost everybody is responding. Also, depth of response, which we have really learned over time is a way to translate into long remissions. So, every long, very significant remissions. And the early data in patients who have had many prior lines.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, it is very encouraging news.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It is very encouraging.  

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s start with an overview of CAR T-cell therapy. Could you explain how the treatment works?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. So, CAR T specifically is speaking to T cells, which are a normal part of the immune system that have been engineered and modified. So, normal part of the immune system T cells have a lot of checks and balances and are constantly looking for cells that are supposed to be killed. For example, something that has a virus in it.  

When we engineer the CAR T-cells, we modify, one, the target so they are now trained to find the specific target on a tumor cell. And we remove all these checks and balances. So, once that T-cell finds its target, it can kill it without all of the side effects. The way normal T  cells communicate with other members of the immune system are something called cytokines. So, we will touch on that a little later, I think, but we also, again, interfere with that communication by engineering the cells.  

Katherine Banwell:

Which patient type qualifies for CAR T?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

In 2023, we currently have two approved commercial CAR T products and we do have a number of them in clinical trials. The two that are commercially approved specifically are targeted for patients who are in their fourth line of therapy, so the myeloma has learned to come back that four times.  

They’ve been exposed to all of the regular drugs, which by four lines most patients will have been at least once. We look for patients whose kidney function is at a safe level to tolerate the therapy. And other than that, it’s really having caregiver support and overall ability to come to a center that specializes in this.  

Katherine Banwell:

What’s the process for accessing the CAR T?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

The first important part is remembering they exist and having the referring physician remember to send patients our way. Once patients come to our center, they will meet with coordinators, both the clinic coordinators to make sure we have all of the testing, to make sure the heart is healthy enough, the lungs are healthy enough. There’s no infections brewing.  

Financial coordinators to take care of all of the organizing. If patients are coming from further than 30 minutes, setting them up for a place to stay in the city, transportation aid, all of those things. Once we decide to go ahead and have our collection date set, that sort of starts the actual process. Since most of our patients have had stem cell transplants before, there is that point of comparison. I think one of the most important things to remember is CAR T is not stem cells.  

So, while they’re both the cellular therapies, the patient experience is vastly, vastly different. It starts with a collection, where in stem cells you need several days of injections and maybe several days of collection. T-cell collection is a one-day event. We get what we get and then we are going to manufacture them and we can grow them in a Petri dish. There is no minimum and there is no instigating injections to get them going.  

Once they’re collected, the cells are then sent for manufacturing, which may take from four to eight weeks. During that time, patients usually receive what we call a bridging therapy, which is some kind of therapy to keep the myeloma at bay. Not to get rid of it but to keep it under control so that once the cells are ready the patient is also ready. Going into CAR T with growing myeloma can increase the side effects.  

Katherine Banwell:

Go ahead.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I will give you just the final bit. Once the cells are ready, then we plan to give chemotherapy to get the patient’s T cells to not put up a fight. That’s called lymphodepletion. We infuse the cells and they’re now with us for two weeks in the hospital and usually two weeks after.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. So, I was going to ask how long patients are in the hospital for the procedure. So, that explains that. So, it is about two weeks. What signifies that a patient is ready to be released and go home?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

The reason patients are in the hospital is a very classic expected toxicity experience. So, they’re in the hospital for us to observe, watch. If it happens, which about 80 percent of the time there will be some toxicity for us to address – one that toxicity has resolved, they’re then okay to go home.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. That is great advice. Thank you. Of course, we know that CAR T-cell therapy comes with some potential side effects. Let’s talk about some of those side effects and how they’re managed. You mentioned cytokine release syndrome earlier. Let’s start with that. What is it, exactly?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes. As I mentioned, cytokines are molecules that the cells of the immune system use to communicate with each other. With this therapy, we are asking the T cells that have been infused to expand, meaning make multiple copies of themselves, and sweep through the body looking for myeloma and basically picking a fight with them.  

So, CRS is what happens when the T cells are too good at their job and they overachieve and then picking a little fight kind of make a big ruckus. The result is what we call inflammation, which the patient will experience usually as a fever.  

But if it does not go – if it continues to go unchecked, that fever can be accompanied by low blood pressure because of these inflammatory markers, difficulty breathing or low oxygen levels. And all of these things are now vastly prevented. CRS is usually treated very quickly and doesn’t get to these higher grades, more complicated fields.  

Katherine Banwell:

How is CRS managed?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

We have a couple of very good antidotes. CRS by itself is not just a fever. Certainly, a fever in any patient who is undergoing these kinds of therapies, we will try to rule out any infections. But there are markers in the blood that we can follow. When the blood markers and the fever occur at the same time, we know that cytokines are driving that effect. If it seems to be driven by something we call IL-6, we use tocilizumab (Actemra). If it seems to be driven by IL-1, we use anakinra (Kineret). These are all drugs that are themselves monoclonal antibodies which then will shut down that overreaction and cool things down.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Another possible side effect is neurotoxicity. Would you define that term for us?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes. That one is harder to define because neurotoxicity in itself is very broad. We usually think of something called ICANS, which is the neurotoxicity associated with the effector cells. That specific neurotoxicity tends to happen in conjunction with CRS.  

And while CRS probably occurs in about 85 percent of patients, the ICANS is usually in the order of 5 percent. So, much, much more rare. And the antidote for that, which most patients know, love, and hate, is steroids.  

Katherine Banwell:

Ah, yes.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I should mention there are other parts of neurotoxicity which I think the most concerning is something that has been known as Parkinsonian symptoms. It’s really just movement disorder. These are exceedingly rare and so we haven’t had a chance to learn very much because there are so few patients who have had this complication. We have learned from the first six patients who had this how to avoid it. And so, I think it’s now even more rare and it really goes into patient selection, to making sure, as I mentioned, that the myeloma isn’t growing very much.  

We monitor to see if the T cells grow too fast, if the CRS is of a high level. These are all predictors of delayed neurotoxicity.  

Katherine Banwell:

What are the signs of neurotoxicity in a patient?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Very specifically, for the ICANS, we have tool called the ICE tool, which is a series of questions to test memory and attention and ability to write and understand and speak. So, most commonly, it would be an inability to speak properly or, if someone is writing a sentence, it’s really a very classic finding. It is no longer spread across the page.  

These are not subtle findings. Part of, again, being in the hospital is to allow us to have this tool twice a day and look for these signs very early on, interfere with their development by giving the patients steroids – usually for a day or two – and resolving it.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, that’s how neurotoxicity is managed, then.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes.  

Katherine Banwell:

And is there a potential for long-term issues associated with neurotoxicity?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Certainly, there is always the potential. But the vast majority – again, the ICANS tend to be self-limited while the patient’s in the hospital, and that is why we’re watching during that window. The delayed neurotoxicities, in addition to these very rare movement disorders, we do see some cranial nerve palsies. The seventh cranial nerve, usually recognized as Bell’s palsy, has happened a few times. We really don’t understand the mechanism of what is driving it. It’s inflammation but why there, why that way. So, we tend to use acyclovir, which is the classic treatment for Bell’s palsy and steroids.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, a suppressed immune system is something that a patient undergoing CAR T-cell therapy should consider. What does it mean and what precautions should patients take?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

That is such a good question and it is specifically true for patients who are receiving therapies that target BCMA, which both commercial CAR Ts at the moment target.  

Because it is such an effective therapy at bringing down cells that express BCMA, your immune cells that make antibodies, one of the side effects is the immunoglobulins, which are the antibodies, are all very, very low. So, that is one level of immunosuppression.  

The other is the chemotherapy that we use to quiet the T cells can also lower all the blood counts. So, red blood cells and platelets may be low as well and those are not involved with immunity and can be transfused. So, that is a supportive mechanism. For the immune therapies, we usually use IVIG, which is intravenous immunoglobulins to support the patient until they’re able to make their own.  

We also protect them from viral infections with acyclovir or valacyclovir. Protect them from something called PJP pneumonia, which is a virus that specifically appears when you’re very immunosuppressed. Should their neutrophil count be low, that is another type of white blood cell – make sure they’re protected with antibiotics.  

Katherine Banwell:

Is there a typical timeframe for the immune system function to return?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I would say a year is a good time but it’s a very unpredictable wave. So again, unlike stem cell transplant where you have a clear time where the cells are low, they recover, they stay recovered, we have noticed for some patients, they may have low blood counts just during the first month and then be recovered. Some will have no problems in the first month and it’s in the weeks to follow that suddenly either the reds, or the platelets, or the white count may need support.  

And in very rare instances, out to a year, they’re still needing support, sometimes say a growth factor injection once a week.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, how is it monitored over time?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

We monitor all those different levels of the immune system. So, we check on the CBC, which is the very common blood counts. We also look at what is called a lymph panel to look at the different types of T cells and make sure that they are recovering. Those usually take about three to six months to recover. The white count, again usually by Day 30, but there are some cases of delayed recovery. And the immunoglobulins, which is the antibody level, we also monitor monthly.  

Katherine Banwell:

What other side effects should patients who are considering CAR T-cell therapy be aware of?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Really, those are the big three. I would say others are very rare but the low blood counts is the one that lasts beyond the time in the hospital. And the rare neurotoxicities that are delayed.  

Katherine Banwell:

When should patients mention any issues they’re experiencing to their healthcare team?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Always. That is a very, very, short answer. Please don’t ever think you are bothering the doctor. I hear that a lot. “Oh, I didn’t want to bother you.” It is never a bother. This is why we are here. So, anything that is happening that is out of the ordinary, please let your healthcare provider know. If it is not something that needs our attention or we don’t need to worry about, we will tell you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Better safe than sorry.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Always.  

Katherine Banwell:

And how does a care partner factor into the process? It seems having a good support system is essential.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It absolutely is. I think the entire journey of myeloma really is what I would consider a team sport. It is not something we go through alone. And the more members of the team you have the better. So, as your medical team, we always value the caregivers. For CAR T specifically, since there is this concern for infections and neurotoxicity, caregivers are really essential. They should be well informed, know what to look for, and be the ones to reach out to us if anything is concerning. Again, any symptoms out of the ordinary, any fever, and really be a part of communicating with the medical team.  

Katherine Banwell:

Is there a period where patients are considered out of the woods from CAR T side effects?   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Hard to say. Again, I like to emphasize that most patients by Day 30 or 60 are back to work, are feeling themselves, are recovered. Another contrast to stem cell transplants. It’s a much faster recovery. I have patients who within 30 days are eager to go back to work and don’t know what I was talking about or why I insist on seeing them so much.  

But some patients, again, out to a year, may still be requiring visits for support in either the IVIG for the immunoglobins, growth factor support for their counts. So, there are outliers at both extremes. We follow the model of 100 days for recovery.  

Katherine Banwell:

Do some patient types do better than others?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Well, always yes. And we are still endeavoring to figure out who they are and why that is. There are things that we don’t know, can’t predict. But things that we do recognize are again bringing patients whose myeloma is under good control.  

So, instead of having a lot of disease or disease that is in a growth phase, we try to use the bridging therapy to optimize the patient, not only to improve the response, but also minimize the toxicities. 

Katherine Banwell:

Does age have an impact at all?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Not as much. We actually have just finished an 88-year-old patient whose hospital course was remarkably unremarkable, as we would like. I think another difference from stem cells, it is not as rigorous. While each patient, I think, should be part of that decision and that conversation, reviewing what is now a growing number of options and see if it’s right for them as an individual. So, age is a consideration, but frailty will always be the more important.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, we discussed the process of accessing CAR T-cell therapy, which can be a big undertaking. How do you counsel patients who are considering this treatment option? 

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Mostly, I want to make sure that they are well-educated and understand as much as we do and as much as we can convey. I am fortunate to be part of a big multidisciplinary team so there is social workers, clinical coordinators, other specialists, dentists, cardiologists, to give all of the perspectives. I like to make sure that they know what it is and also that they know what it isn’t. So, it is not a stem cell transplant and it is not another line of therapy that you just sign up for and go into blindly.  

So, making sure they’ve had all of their questions answered, and it’s not something they read on the Internet. They have spoken with one of the CAR T physicians, understand all of the steps of the process, and have questions to their very individual needs addressed.   

Katherine Banwell:

If a patient is interested in possibly doing CAR T-cell therapy, what questions should they ask their healthcare team?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I think again making it personal to them. Does the team think they are a good candidate? Is this the right time? Because they may be a good candidate but not even need it at the moment. Or, again, there are things that we could do between now and the cells to optimize the success both in efficacy and toxicity.  

Understanding what side effects are expected for that individual because, again, we can usually judge these will be more likely or less likely. And then, do I have a plan in place to find the right center and continue the care and the monitoring near home after that?   

Katherine Banwell:

What are the alternatives if a patient decides CAR T is not right for them?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I would say as part of this newest revolution and fairly comparable in novelty and method of action would be the bispecific antibodies. So, these are molecules.  

They are not cells. And they activate the patient’s own T cells and bring the T cells to the myeloma, causing very similar side effect profile and very similar effectiveness. The rates are a little bit lower but they are administered as mostly a subcutaneous injection that has to be dosed weekly or every other week. The contrast is it’s a continuous therapy, but it does allow us to adjust as we go, which the cellular therapy doesn’t.  

Katherine Banwell:

While there are approved CAR T-cell therapies for myeloma currently, there are also many others that are in clinical trials. Would you talk about some of the ongoing research in this area?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. Again, while we celebrate the tremendous changes that these two CAR Ts have made to the field, they are both autologous, meaning we use the patient’s own T cells for manufacturing. They both target BCMA. And they are both what we call second generation T cells. So, other areas are to change the target. So, instead of just targeting BCMA, there are studies specifically targeting GPRC5D, which are coming down fairly soon. Rather than using the patient’s own T cells there are a number of products that use a healthy donor’s T cells, which are available immediately.  

So, we don’t need to go through the bridging therapy, and we don’t have to wait for the cells to be ready. And lastly, there are different manufacturing processes. As I mentioned, the ones we currently have may take up to eight weeks for manufacturing. There are some studies now where cells are basically manufactured, engineered, in 48 hours –  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

– and are ready to be infused so that they actually grow in the patient rather than in a Petri dish. So, lots of areas of exploration and I look forward to, in five years, being able to look back and see again how the field has changed.  

Katherine Banwell:

And I’m sure it will, by the sounds of it. Are there any trials introducing CAR T-cell therapy as an earlier line of myeloma treatment?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

There are. So, both the products that are now commercially available for the fourth line are being studied in earlier and earlier lines. We actually just this year got results of the CARTITUDE-4 study, which was in one to three prior lines, and expect that that will lead to an earlier approval in the very near future.  

And we have a number of studies, again, with both products looking at patients who have either high risk disease or don’t respond as well as we would like to their frontline therapy, and actually being used as part of that first line.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, what advice do you have for patients who may be hesitant to participate in a clinical trial?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Education. More than anything, understand what they are. Clinical trials come in all shapes and sizes. We have these exciting molecules that have to go into a first human at some point but we also have tried and true therapies that we know – for example, the CAR T – that is approved in these later lines. That same product is being now offered earlier. So, that has to be within a clinical trial because it’s not the approved indication.  

But it is a product that we know to be safe. We know that it works in advanced disease and are actually expecting that it will work even better in earlier lines. So, clinical trials is a very broad term. Understanding what the patient may be eligible for – meaning, what the study’s looking for – and then comparing that to what the patient is looking for. So, sometimes it’s even modes of therapy. So, if you’re specifically looking for an oral agent, there may be studies that don’t require injections or that many visits. So, really looking widely, speaking to your healthcare physician, and understanding what the options are.   

Katherine Banwell:

And if a patient is interested in possibly participating in a clinical trial, what sorts of questions should they ask?   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Very, very good question. First, understanding what clinical trial. Each center will have their own combination. Some studies are available in multiple locations. Some studies are very institution specific. So, meeting with the research team and understanding what are the required testings, what is the required treatments, and what is the required follow-up, I think, is the first part.  

Clinical trials, in order for them to give us the power to generalize and learn lessons are very strict in trying to keep to the schedule just as specified and everything is much more contained. So, making sure that they again understand what they’re signing up for and what they’ll get out of it.  

Katherine Banwell:

What other myeloma research are you excited about?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Well, my focus is in CAR T and so I think, with bias, that is the most exciting part. But I did mention bispecifics. One of the things we need to concede is CAR T really requires you be at a cellular therapy center.  

Whereas, with the bispecifics, while for now experience is still building, the idea is that this is something that could be administered in any practice across the nation. So, being able to reach more patients and those also with different targets, different schedules, different combinations, was another very interesting field as well.   

Katherine Banwell:

As we close out this conversation, Dr. Rossi, I would like to get your take on the future of myeloma. What makes you hopeful?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Just looking back, I think. Again, in the 20 years that I’ve been fortunate enough to participate and see the changes, we have gone through, as I mentioned, three of the four revolutions in the field. And the speed with which each step forward then begets three or four more. As I mentioned, in five years I think we’ll look back and say, “Oh, how quaint, what we were doing in 2023.” So, the speed and the number of wins we’re getting and how quickly that’s translating into direct patient experience is really incredible.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. It seems like there’s a lot of progress and hope in the field.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

There absolutely is.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, Dr. Rossi, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. It’s been my pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us today.   

PODCAST: Your Path to Empowerment: Multiple Myeloma | Clinical Trials

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Have you ever wanted to a hear a first-hand account from someone who has participated in a clinical trial? Hear from two patients as they describe their experience with enrollment and participation in a trial. Also, keep watching for our LIVE Q&A session with patient panelists and Myeloma expert, Dr. Manni Mohyuddin as they answer questions received from our audience. 

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

PODCAST: CAR T-Cell Therapy Care Partners | What Do You Need to Know About the Process?

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What is the role of the care partner when a loved one is undergoing CAR T-cell therapy? Registered nurse and transplant coordinator Sarah Meissner is joined by Adrienne, a care partner, as they discuss the importance of care partners in the CAR T-cell therapy process. They review key questions to ask the healthcare team, explain patient side effects to monitor for, and share resources that can help support care partners throughout their loved one’s recovery period.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today, we’re going to discuss the role that care partners play in supporting their loved ones who are going through CAR T-cell therapy. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this webinar contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the program. At the end of this webinar, you will receive a link to a program survey. This will allow you to provide feedback about your experience today and it will help us plan future webinars. 

Finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. 

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Sarah Meissner. Sarah, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Sarah Meissner:

Hi. My name is Sarah Meissner. I am a transplant and CAR T coordinator at the Colorado Blood Cancer Institute in Denver. And I have been working with blood cancer patients for 13 years and in my current role for 8. 

Katherine:

Excellent. Thank you so much for being with us today. And here to share the care partner perspective is Adrienne. Adrienne, welcome to the program. 

Adrienne:

Thank you for having me. 

Katherine:

So, let’s begin by learning more about Sarah’s role. Sarah, can you explain what you do as a transplant coordinator at CBCI? 

Sarah Meissner:

Of course. So, I like to say that as a coordinator, I am kind of the travel agent of the CAR T process. So, I meet with the patients when they are determined to be a candidate for CAR T-cell therapy.  

And I act as kind of the intermediary between the patient and the care team. I help them get set up for all of their appointments as well as provide education for what’s going to be occurring. 

 Katherine:

Okay. So, when someone is undergoing CAR T-cell therapy, who are the essential members on their healthcare team besides you?  

Sarah Meissner:

We have a pretty big care team. So, of course, we have the physician who is kind of at the helm for determining the care plan. We also have financial coordinators, social workers, dieticians, as well as the nursing team who will be providing the care to the patient. 

Katherine:

So, how many people could be on a team?  

Sarah Meissner:

It could be as many as 10. It just depends on the individual patient’s needs and how different people can help. 

Katherine:

How do you, specifically, work with CAR T-cell patients and care partners? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, I am their main contact during the process. So, any questions that come up that I can help with, I’m there via phone, email, in person meetings. I also am big in education. So, sitting with the patient when they’re in clinic and helping them understand what this treatment is, why we’re doing it, what they can expect and just helping them through the process. 

Katherine:

Great. Adrienne, I’d like to turn to now to you and find out more about your experience. How did all of this begin for you and your husband? 

Adrienne:

This all began with my husband and I, we both are very active, and we work out a lot. And he had some pain in his lower back and his groin area. 

And we started going to physical therapy and a chiropractor. And the chiropractor was doing besides just chiropractic, he also did physical therapy stuff, too. His pain wasn’t getting any better. And after a few months, he called to get an MRI and that’s when they found his myeloma was in the MRI. Because of his age, he was diagnosed in 2018 at I’m trying to think how old he was. He was around 37. So, it was a very early diagnosis maybe but he definitely was on the young side of having this kind of cancer. So, that’s how we found out.  

And then after that, it was just kind of a whirlwind on how we would care for him and what we needed to do to get him better. 

Katherine:

Yeah. It must have been hard.  

Adrienne:

Yeah. It was hard. 

Katherine:

What was the process like for you as his main care partner?  

Adrienne:

My role once he was diagnosed was just to do everything I could to find out. We didn’t really know about the disease before. So, to find out what the best care for him was. We did a lot of research. We ended up going to several doctors before deciding what treatment plan we were going to go with. 

And then, he had some ups and downs, some failed treatments. And that’s where we went into CAR T, because we had so many failed treatments before.  

Katherine:

Did you feel like you were doing a lot of research? Were you doing a lot of homework Googling stuff? 

Adrienne:

Well, kind of trying to but we were also told not to do that too much, because it’s always the worst-case scenario online. But we did that somewhat and we got as much information from each institute we went to. And we went to, like I said, we went through three, and then we ended up at CBCI at the end where we are now.   

So, we started to discover that the first few lines of treatment were pretty standard. When you’re put into a situation where you find out your spouse has cancer, all you want to do is you want to find the magic miracle that’s going to cure them. And we did have to just go through the steps of standard care first. And we’re hoping that this CAR T-cell works. It’s working really well right now.  

Katherine:

I was just going to ask you, how are you and your husband doing now? 

Adrienne:

We’re doing pretty good. He’s still very tired. He’s, actually, taking a nap right now. And he has ups and downs. He definitely feels a lot better overall. He is getting back to normal life. But there are times where he just doesn’t feel quite right and has some physical pain and some cognitive issues. 

And we don’t really know if that’s from CAR T alone or if it’s also just from the last five years of having chemo and bone marrow transplant and all of the care before the CAR T-cell. 

Katherine:

Sarah, can you answer that question about cognitive difficulties that Adrienne’s husband is having? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. So, it is pretty common to have what we call chemo brain after any treatment really. And in the case of Adrienne’s husband, he’s had several rounds of chemotherapy going into the CAR T treatment. So, it can be kind of an accumulative effect of all of that. And it is something that people struggle with post-treatment. 

It’s kind of a brain fog, not remembering things. So, working with the team and neurologists can be helpful in some cases. So, that is something that we see. 

Katherine:

Well, let’s shift the conversation a bit to learn more about how the CAR T-cell therapy process works. Sarah, would you walk us through the typical path? 

Sarah Meissner:

Of course. So, it is a pretty protracted treatment. It starts off when the patient is determined to be a CAR T-cell candidate. 

At that point, we are looking at getting testing to confirm that eligibility so based off of disease process as well as performance status and organ function. So, there are a series of tests that are done, and then those are sent to the insurance company in order to obtain authorization for treatment. After we have received the authorization, then the patient consents for treatment with their physician where we review the plan of care, side effects, risks, benefits, all of that. And then the T-cell collection takes place. So, this is a one day, outpatient procedure. We put a temporary catheter into the patient that goes into their neck and we use this to collect the T cells. 

So, the patient gets hooked up to an apheresis machine, which kind of looks like a dialysis machine. And it filters the patient’s blood.  

It takes blood out of the patient’s body, goes into the machine into a giant centrifuge where the blood is separated into different densities. And then, the T-cells are extracted from the density of the blood where it is and then, taken out and collected in a bag. This is a three- to four-hour process usually and then, when we are finished, we are left with a bag of T cells. Those T cells are then shipped off to a manufacturing site for the specific pharmaceutical company that is going to be manufacturing the patient’s T-cells. And that can take anywhere from three to eight weeks depending on the product.  

During this time period, most patients have an active blood cancer that is going to need some treatment while we’re waiting for those cells. So, it is something we call bridging therapy. They may or may not receive that depending on what’s going on in their case.  

After the T cells are manufactured, they get shipped back to our center as a frozen block. And we have the patient come back in. They get a few days of chemotherapy. We call this lymphodepleting chemotherapy. So, this isn’t chemo that’s meant to treat the patient’s disease but to suppress their immune system so that when we put these CAR T cells back into their body, the patient’s immune system doesn’t fight them off before they can do their job. So, that’s typically two or three days depending on which products the patient is getting and which disease is being treated.  

Then, they get a few days off and then, that frozen block of cells is brought out of the freezer, brought to the patient, thawed in a water bath that looks kind of like a hot dog cooker. 

 Katherine:

That’s an odd image. 

Sarah Meissner:

There is water in there that’s heated to body temperature and the frozen block of cells is thawed.  

And then, those cells are infused into the patient’s body and go to work to fight the patient’s cancer. 

Katherine:

What is the care partner’s role in helping the patient through this process? And why are care partners so critical for a patient’s recovery? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, the care partner is a huge part of this process. After the cells are infused, there is a 30-day close monitoring period. And it’s a requirement for our center that the patient have a 24/7 caregiver during that time. There are a lot of side effects that can happen, and the patient is not going to be able to drive for two months. 

So, they need somebody with them at all times to be monitoring for these symptoms as well as bringing them to their appointments, helping them with their medications, day-to-day stuff at home as well. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, if you don’t mind, what sort of side effects did your husband have?   

Adrienne:

He had from the immunosuppressing chemotherapy, he had really low numbers for a while and that just made him feel pretty bad. And he didn’t have any really bad side effects where we had to go to the hospital. Well, I guess we did a few times. He had just a little bit of fever, which you have to report and make sure that it’s okay. 

So, we did have to go twice. But it really didn’t end up being anything too bad. He did have a fall down the stairs at our house. So, if we did it different, I think because we had to be there every day for two weeks and the monitoring, I think that we would probably have rented a hotel that didn’t have these stairs just because he’s used to going up and down the stairs, but I don’t know if he just lost his footing. But it was extremely scary with everything else that he was going through. And that might have been part of the cognitive thing. I feel like most of his side effects, actually, started hitting months after the cognitive things. 

But the stress was more on just caring for him and making sure that he was okay and just being ready just in case something happened. 

Katherine:

Yeah. It’s like being on high alert 24/7. 

Adrienne:

Correct. 

Katherine:

Sarah, could you describe some of the common side effects? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. So, there are two main sets of side effects that we’re looking for with CAR T therapy. The first is something called cytokine release syndrome. So, this happens when the CAR T cells latch onto those cancer cells and kill them and stuff gets put out into the patient’s blood stream. That can cause what’s called a cytokine response. And it’s, basically, proteins that cause inflammation. So, common side effects that we see with that are fever, low blood pressure, high heart rate. 

Some people need some oxygen. It looks very similar to what we would see in sepsis or a severe infection. The good news about that is there is a medication that’s very effective in treating cytokine release syndrome. And so, that’s why it’s important for the caregiver to notice these things and bring them into the hospital so they can get that treatment right away. The other set of side effects is something called neurotoxicity. So, if you think of the brain as a group of wires that is sending signals throughout the body, with neurotoxicity, those wires can kind of get jumbled. They’re not necessarily cut. This isn’t an irreversible thing. 

They get jumbled and can kind of mix up those signals. So, we can see patients that are confused. Patients can have seizures. We start everybody on anti-seizure medication as a prevention method. They can get a tremor and we can see changes in their handwriting. 

So, we assess for this twice a day during those first 14 days by asking them a simple set of five questions. To name certain objects, to count back from 100 by 10, ask them what day it is, that kind of stuff and then, to write out a sentence. And we can see subtle changes in that functioning in the handwriting. So, this like the cytokine release syndrome, if we start to see it, there are medications that we can use to treat it. We usually put people in the hospital for a little closer monitoring. But these are things that the caregiver usually will catch onto before the care team because they know them best.  

And they can catch onto those subtle changes maybe in their personality or little confusion or stuff like that.  

Katherine:

Well, that leads me to the next question, which is what sorts of questions should care partners be asking their team? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah, definitely. 

So, they should be asking what they should be looking for, what side effects would constitute something that they need to report. They should be asking, “Who are we reporting to, what phone number or who are we reporting these things to?” Those are the main things to be looking for. We use a home monitoring system at our center. So, maybe some specific questions about monitoring dependent on your center and how they’re having the caregiver look for these side effects. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, based on your experience, are there any questions that you would recommend care partners ask their healthcare team?  

Adrienne:

I think that it’s kind of one of those things where you have to experience it. I feel like I did have all of my questions answered. 

But at the same time, you don’t really know what you’re getting into until it’s actually happening. 

Katherine:

Right. 

Adrienne: But back to the cytokine syndrome, my husband did have this effect where he had the high fever, and that’s why we went in. And we did get the Toci dose [tocilizumab], which is a special medicine that kind of calms the inflammation down. So, I think that some of the questions that I would have pretty much are what to expect but I was given that. And I think maybe it would be good to meet other people that had gone through this before you’re actually going through it.  

I didn’t have that luxury, because my husband was only the second person in our hospital to do it. But to know what’s going on from another caregiver’s perspective would be nice. 

Katherine:

Yeah. We’re going to talk about resources in a moment. But, Sarah, I wanted to ask you, “What are some of the common issues that care partners face?” 

Sarah Meissner:

I think this is a very stressful time here. Your loved one is not feeling well, and there are these potential side effects. And so, that can cause a lot of stress on caregivers that they’re kind of the one in charge. They’re looking for these things. Of course, they want the best for their loved one. So, it can be a very stressful time.  

Frequent appointments. Here in Denver, we have terrible traffic. So, if people live far away from the center, it’s fighting rush hour every morning to get here. That can add a lot of stress as well as if you have other things going on at home, too, other family members who need you, it’s a lot to take on. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, what experiences or issues did you have in taking care of your husband? 

Adrienne:

Well, we do have a child. She was 2 at the time. So, I did have to plan childcare pretty much every day for two weeks, which I am fortunate to have lots of friends and family here in Denver, so I was able to get that covered. 

Katherine:

It’s a lot of responsibility for you. 

It’s a higher level of responsibility, I guess, right, because you’re taking care of your child and now, your husband is very sick. And you want to make sure that everyone’s needs are being met. 

Adrienne:

Right. And driving, like Sarah had said, the driving was an issue, because it was so far for us. There are potholes and with the little bit of change in mood and not feeling well, it was hard for him to be in the car so long and not getting to drive himself. So, I think that was not the best experience. I think if we did it next time, we would try and just be closer to the hospital.   

And for me to take care of everybody else, I did make sure that I would try and work out and not being able to leave the house with him. So I work out in the living room just to get some of my own stress out, or I would have somebody come and watch him if I really wanted to go to a class to work out. And like I said before, we were very lucky to have his parents that live in town and then my mother and my sister. So, that’s something that is important to have a network of people to help you because I don’t know, depending on what you have on your plate. I think it would be almost impossible to do it all by yourself, especially if you have to work or you have children to take care of.  

So, that’s some advice or what I’ve learned from this experience. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Was it hard for you to take time for yourself? Did you feel guilty? I know a lot of people think “Oh, I need to focus all of my attention on my child or my sick spouse.” It can be difficult to say to yourself, “I really need to take half an hour or an hour,” and then, find somebody to help you out with the caregiving.   

Adrienne:

Yes. I did find it difficult. And you just know that there is going to be an end in sight. You think,”If I can just last through the month so I did sacrifice.” But at the same time, my main concern was that my husband would get through this. So, I did feel a little guilty. And I would get a little bit of time.  

But me, personally, I just wanted to push through that month and especially that first two weeks. And then, I knew that I would be back to doing the things I love.  

Katherine:

Yes. Rather than looking too far forward, I guess it’s trying to get through every day each day. Yeah. I’m going to switch back to ask Sarah a question. Sarah, why is it so important that care partners communicate any issues with their healthcare team? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, those side effects that we talked about, there are drugs that we can use to treat them, but they work best when we can get those drugs in as soon as possible. So, if we’re starting to see signs of cytokine release syndrome, we want to get that tocilizumab (Actemra) infused in the patient within two hours.  

So, it’s really important that we know that these side effects are popping up so that we can treat it appropriately. 

Katherine:

All right. We spoke about support a few moments ago. Sarah, this is, obviously, a very taxing experience for everyone, the patient and care partner. Where can care partners find support during this time looking outside family members and relatives nearby? What other resources are available? 

Sarah Meissner:

Absolutely. I would encourage people to work with their local psychosocial team first. There may be support groups within the program that they’re receiving treatment at that could be helpful or, like Adrienne talked about, other patients or caregivers who have gone through this that they can be connected with.  

There is also some great support resources through The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. They do have caregiver support. They have patient support, connections with patients, and that kind of stuff. So, that is another good place to look as well as the different manufacturing groups that make these CAR T cells do have patient support groups as well. So, maybe some more information, maybe some caregiver resources. They’re all a little bit different but that would be another good place to look.  

Katherine:

Adrienne, did you find any resources that you would recommend?  

Adrienne:

Well, I used, and not on particularly CAR T cell but I do have one in there, but Facebook does have closed groups that you can join. 

I did this for his bone marrow transplant. And I do get a lot of support on that particular one. It’s for spouses and caregivers in particular. So, look for that and there is one on CAR T cell but for multiple myeloma. But at the time, it was very new so there wasn’t a lot of back and forth on there. But you can really connect with people, and, of course, it’s not a substitute for any kind of medical advice. But it is nice to talk to people that are going through the same thing, especially with his bone marrow transplant. There were other caregivers that were, actually, doing it at the same time. So, that was kind of like a reassuring thing to have this little group of people that we knew were all doing it at the same time.  

Katherine:

Yeah. That’s great support. Sarah, how can care partners make sure they’re taking care of themselves? What can they be doing? 

Sarah Meissner:

I think it’s hard going through this process. The focus is so much on the patient and what they’re going through. And caregivers often forget that they have needs, too. So, taking the time to look within and recognize when you’re feeling stressed and maybe you need some support. Reaching out to friends and family is a great thing if you have that option. If you have the option to have somebody come in and hang out with the patient for a period of time, so you can go to a work out class or you can just go grab some groceries or go do something for yourself and have a few minutes that you’re not having to worry about watching the patient can be really a great thing for people. 

Sometimes, if patients don’t have other support, caregivers will take the time that the patient is in clinic and being watched by the care team to maybe go run a quick errand or do something. And that’s definitely an option as well.  

Katherine:

Adrienne, we talked about this, but do you have any advice for care partners as they begin the process? 

Adrienne:

Yes. I would just say that it’s only temporary and that the first two weeks is really intense, but it definitely gets better. And just to keep your eyes peeled on all of those little things that might not be right, because it’s really important to get them back into clinic if they need it and to take a little time for yourself.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, before we end the program, I’d like to get final thoughts from both of you. What message do you want to leave care partners with? Adrienne, let’s start with you. You may have already answered this question just a moment ago. 

Adrienne:

The message that I think that we would like to give, my husband, too, is that this is a lot of work, but he has had a very successful remission. And it’s very promising, and we’re excited to have a long future with this. It’s much better than having chemo every week.  

And it’s improved his quality of life. So, I think that as a caregiver, it’s a lot of work, but it’s definitely worth the work, because the end result, hopefully, will be life-changing. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Sarah, do you have anything to add? What information would you like to leave care partners with? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. The care partners are such a crucial part of this process. Without them, we can’t provide this treatment. So, it’s a very important role, and we are very thankful that you are willing to do this for your loved one so that we can give them this treatment and, hopefully, get them into remission and have great results from that. So, make sure that you take the time that you need to be able to be there for your loved one and, again, just thank you for being willing to do this.  

Katherine:

Well, Sarah and Adrienne, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really great to talk to you both.

Sarah Meissner:

Thank you.  

Adrienne:

Thank you. 

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners. If you’d like to watch this webinar again, there will be replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. Also, don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan programs in the future. To access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit Powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell.   

PODCAST: Accessing Personalized Myeloma Treatment | What Patients Should Know

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Myeloma experts Dr. Francesca Cottini and Dr. Ashley Rosko provide an overview of the latest advances in essential testing for myeloma and explain how results could affect care and treatment decisions. Drs. Cottini and Rosko also review available myeloma therapies and their hopes for the future of patient care.

Dr. Francesca Cottini is Assistant Professor in the Division of Hematology at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Cottini.

Dr. Ashley Rosko is Medical Director of the Oncogeriatric Program at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center – The James. Learn more about Dr. Rosko.

See More from INSIST! Myeloma

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today we’re going to discuss how to access personalized care for your myeloma and why it’s vital to insist on essential testing.  Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Let’s meet our guests for today. I’ll start with Dr. Ashley Rosko. Dr. Rosko, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Rosko:

Hi everyone. My name is Ashley Rosko. I’m an associate professor at the division of hematology at The Ohio State University. 

I’m also the medical director of the oncogeriatric program here at The James and one of the myeloma physicians here at Ohio State. 

Katherine:

Thank you. Also with us is Dr. Francesca Cottini. Dr. Cottini, would you please introduce yourself to the audience? 

Dr. Cottini:

Sure. My name is Francesca Cottini. I am an assistant professor in the divisions of hematology at The Ohio State University. I see patients with multiple myeloma, and I also run my own lab where I focus on multiple myeloma basic research. 

Katherine:

Thank you both for taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us today.  

It’s no secret that it’s important for patients to take an active role in their care and treatment decisions, and I’m sure many viewers here today are doing just that. So, Dr. Rosko, let’s start with this question: Why do you think it’s essential that patients advocate for themselves and insist on better care?  

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, so I think when it comes to uncommon diseases like multiple myeloma –  

Although we’re talking a lot about it here today, myeloma is an uncommon cancer, and when it comes to rare cancers, it’s really important for you to get care at either a comprehensive cancer center or a place where there is expertise specifically in multiple myeloma. 

And the reason why that’s so important, it’s recommended through the NCCN guidelines and other standing guidelines is because myeloma is a very – it’s a shifting and changing landscape when it comes to both treatment regimens, diagnosis, and there’s a lot of moving parts and pieces.

Such as, there is an uncommon cancer that when diagnosed, we do recommend that patients and with their caregivers and with their families and support be able to seek expertise care for these uncommon cancers. We work often in collaboration with our community team, but we would not be able to care for myeloma if it were not for our community partners. 

And so, it’s really, really important for patients oftentimes, when there’s been such a diagnosis, they can come to a comprehensive cancer center for a consultation or to be able to get a second opinion oftentimes. And then continue to get care locally. It really provides this overall guidance on the management and diagnosis of uncommon plasma cell disorders, and we’re happy to do that. 

Katherine:

Thank you for that. It’s helpful as we begin our discussion. Part of accessing more personalized care starts with test results. Dr. Cottini, what testing should take place following a myeloma diagnosis?  

Dr. Cottini:

So, once somebody is diagnosed with multiple myeloma, there are different types of tests that we need to get. Some are blood tests, some are urine tests, some are bone marrow tests, and others are just different types of imaging. So, the reason for all these tests is because multiple myeloma can kind of go everywhere and can cause the damage to different types of organs. 

So, if we look at blood tests, usually you would see that you get the complete blood count, so we can count the number of red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets. And then we’ll look at kidney function, through a chemistry profile, calcium levels, multiple myeloma can affect bone cells can affect kidneys. And then, you will see some more sophisticated tests that are really important for the diagnosis of multiple myeloma but also for monitoring and seeing if you’re actually responding to the treatment or you are progressing. 

These two tests that you can see are kind of difficult to say, but very important and needs to be remembered. So, one is called serum protein electrophoresis with immunofixation. And the other one is free light chain assays. 

And the practicum with these two tests is we can identify the specific marker of the multiple myeloma cells and it is either something monoclonal protein or M-protein or kappa light chain numbers. And as I said before, these numbers can be monitored. So, in response to the treatment, they should go down. And then, unfortunately, if we see progression, they might go up again. 

And then, urine tests can also give the same type of numbers. Usually, we have our patient keep the urine for 24 hours, for a day, and we can see if there’s monoclonal proteins or light chains there, too. Then there is a least favorite test of all of them that is the bone marrow testing. So, this is very important for us, because it’s where most of the myeloma cells stay. So, we need to have a look at the bone marrow.  

We need like a piece of the bone and some of the liquid tissue to look at specific characteristics of the myeloma. And then, I said before, the myeloma can go to bones, so we need to kind of get some imaging of the bones. These are usually a set of X-rays – it’s called skeletal survey – to see if there is any area that is abnormal or at risk of fractures.   

Then, we are also looking at PET scan, which is a more sophisticated test that is based on sugar consumption. We know that myeloma cells and all cancers enjoy sugar, so with the PET scan, we can see visually where the myeloma cells are in the body.

Katherine:

What is cytogenetics? 

Dr. Cottini:

So, this is a really interesting question. So, cytogenetics, or FISH tests, are tests that practical tests allow us to look at the chromosomes of the multiple myeloma. 

So, everybody has 46 chromosomes, right? Multiple myeloma cells can have more of them or less of them. So, they can have – some myeloma cells have 17 chromosomes instead of 46. So, cytogenetics in the karyotype counts how many chromosomes there are. And then, there is another type of test that is called FISH test, or fluorescence in situ hybridization – I get all the difficult names – that practically look at specific area of chromosome. It can tell us if some areas of chromosomes are lost. That’s what you can read as deletions, or practically missing pieces of chromosomes.  

Or there are extra pieces of chromosomes. These are the amplification gains. Or if there are different pieces of chromosomes that stick together. And these are the translocational chromosomes. And all of these data are important for deciding for knowing how aggressive or difficult to treat the myeloma. 

Katherine:

Dr. Rosko, in many other cancers, we’ve been hearing about targeted therapies and immunotherapies. In some cases, a specific mutation or chromosomal abnormality may indicate that a particular treatment may be effective. Are we there yet in multiple myeloma care? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, so, myeloma care is always a little bit different. So, myeloma, being a blood cancer, is different than other solid tumors and how we treat it is also a bit different. So, unlike solid tumors, in which we look at the size of a cancer and then if it’s in different places in the body. In multiple myeloma, it being a blood cancer, just by definition it’s throughout the body. So, we have to be able to estimate or stage cancers differently or stage myeloma differently. And it is based upon the cytogenetics that Dr. Cottini just outlined to you.  

So, to get back to your question, Katherine, I didn’t forget about, how do we define treatment, how are some of these therapies being defined specifically and personalized for persons with multiple myeloma? And we do do that. And it is based a lot upon the DNA of those cancer cells and whether or not they’ve acquired what I would call a standard-risk changes or whether or not they’ve acquired a biology that makes them tend to act more aggressively. Now, again, these DNA differences – not all cancers follow the book, and not all therapies are unique to these. 

But what it does help us to do as clinicians to say, “Well, we have standard risk mutations within these cancer cells, and then we can define oftentimes how many drugs a patient gets when they’re newly diagnosed. Just like many other cancers, our treatments for multiple myeloma can be a combination of pills or shots. And then, if patients carry mutations that tend to act more aggressively, we tend to be very aggressive with their upfront therapy. For many patients, we’d receive three medications. Patients with more aggressive disease biology may receive four medications. 

And it’s very unique upon many characteristics. It’s not only based upon the cancer cells’ DNA but also the health of the patient. The health of the patient really defines also the ability to tolerate treatment. So, many patients are – myeloma has a lot of heterogeneity to it, where some patients with myeloma can’t believe that they could possibly have this cancer. 

You know, it’s really kind of picked up subtly, with blood abnormalities. And then some patients with myeloma come into the hospital very very sick, with having kidney damage or having infection. And it runs the gambit between being asymptomatic really and having patients coming in quite unwell. That also influences our treatment decisions. So, when we think about the question about whether we have different immunotherapies or targeted therapies based upon the genetic changes within the myeloma cancer cells, the answer is yes, we do shape therapy that’s tailored around the type of abnormalities within the cancer cells. 

But unlike some cancers, where if the cancer cells carry a specific marker, we give a specific drug, that’s not quite where we’re at with multiple myeloma, in terms that providing therapy is saying, “If you carry this mutation, this is what you should get.” 

So, it’s a very long answer to say to you that we do personalize therapy based upon changes within the DNA, but we also base it upon how fit the patient is and how their health was prior to developing cancer. 

Katherine:

Thank you for that. Dr. Cottini, what mutations or abnormalities are you looking for? 

Dr. Cottini:

So, as Dr. Rosko said, and as I quickly previously mentioned, so there are different types of DNA tests that we can do. One is this FISH test, and that’s a standard test. It’s usually done practically everywhere. And it practically tells us if there are specific deletions or changes. 

And we don’t really have yet a specific medication that we know works for specific abnormalities. But all this information is important to decide, as Dr. Rosko said, number of drugs, and maybe that can be helpful in the future when hopefully thanks to the research, we will be able to say, “Based on this abnormality, you would benefit more from this type of treatment.”  

There are other types of tests. One is called DNA testing, so we look at the mutation. So, really to point to small changes of a particular gene. This is done not routinely, but I think it can still give lots of good information. And there are lots of genes that are normally myeloma, that has potential drugs that have been studied, those with multiple myeloma and any other type of cancer. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Dr. Rosko, what do the results of these tests tell you about prognosis? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, I think this is a really important question. And, in my experience, when we encounter a patient newly diagnosed with myeloma, it is like drinking from a firehose in terms of the amount of information that we are reviewing and the amount of information that we are discussing with the patient and with their family. And oftentimes, we talk about this piece of these cytogenetic abnormalities, and we talk about – but I really encourage your patients and anyone who is listening in today to really take a deeper dive. 

Because sometimes it’s helpful as, one, you’re navigating a new cancer diagnosis, but that’s challenging in and of itself. And then, two, talking about a cancer, multiple myeloma, that is – most people don’t know so much about multiple myeloma, unlike breast or colon or lung cancer, and so I really encourage patients and their caregivers. And a lot of times this happens, where we’ll go over all the cytogenetic abnormalities, we’ll talk about how it plays a role in their overall treatment trajectory, and their prognosis, but also good just to circle back and say. 

Settling into what this diagnosis is, oftentimes, people on first time treatment. And then even sometimes months or even years into their diagnosis, they stop and they come back and they say, “Can we talk about this FISH data? Can we talk about what changes that I had within the DNA? What does this mean?” And that’s not uncommon at all.  

So, I really feel like for many people that are on the call here today, I think it’s important to say it’s okay to go back to your physician and say, “I’m learning more about this, now that I’m more familiar with what this diagnosis is, can we talk about these FISH changes, or can we talk about the stage of my cancer?” Because I think it’s oftentimes an overwhelming period of time to have a new cancer diagnosis. And I also want to just give permission to everyone on the call that it’s okay to go back and ask questions, even if it’s been months or years.  

So, having high-risk mutation can upstage a cancer and in the absence of high-risk mutations can downstage a cancer. So, what that really means is saying, “These biologic changes that are happening in the cancer cells give a sense of what we anticipate that the trajectory is going to be when someone is diagnosed.” 

Now, it’s imperfect. I feel like cancer just generally is unpredictable and there are many things that we try as clinicians. And especially with the experience that we have, to say, “This is what we anticipate the course will be like you, in terms of response, in terms of the cancer being quiet.” As you all know, multiple myeloma is not a curable cancer right now. And for all patients, when they’re diagnosed, they’re often able to get disease control and be able for that cancer to be put in remission. And we do focus on remission. 

I think that’s also something that I talk to my patients about. Even though we can’t cure it, we can certainly control it, and that’s a big part of what we do. So, when we get good disease control, we’ll talk more about next therapies, but that is how Dr. Cottini – Dr. Cottini is a wonderful scientific investigator and knows all of the latest and greatest when it comes to different mutations that are identified within cancer cells. We partner very closely with her in terms of  scientific investigation and how the mutations that were newly identified, too, play a role in terms of response to treatment, and how we’re able to best treat them.  

Katherine:

Thank you for that. Dr. Cottini, do you have anything to add as far as what type of questions patients should ask their healthcare team about test results?  

Dr. Cottini:

I mean, I think Dr. Rosko already pointed out the most important things. So, multiple myeloma is a rare disease, and it’s not as intuitive to understand as breast cancer, lung cancer, prostate cancer. 

So, it’s really important as a patient to understand which tests are we ordering. Why are we ordering? How do we monitor the disease? Because that’s one of the most important questions the patient asks, because for different types of solid tumor, we get imaging, and we know that the tumor is growing or not. Where, for us, we look at the markers I had described previously. And sometimes, we maybe see small changes in the markers that are very concerning and worrisome for the patient, but sometimes they are not. So, I think asking questions about the testing and how we treat them and monitor the disease is a very important part of being a good applique for itself. 

Katherine:

Thank you. Dr. Rosko, I’d like to move on to treatment. We know that multiple myeloma patients have a number of options and that many available therapies are used in combination. 

So, I’d like you to walk us through the options that are available. 

Dr. Rosko:

So, I’m going to start by how the best way that I can frame out when we talk about newly diagnosed versus patients when they have relapse. So, there are therapies that are available for patients that are FDA-approved when they are newly diagnosed with the cancer, and there are therapies that are approved only when a cancer has acted up again or relapsed. 

So, I’ll kind of frame it from patients who are newly diagnosed. And then, I also will talk more about relapsed therapies and what we’re able to offer to patients. So, in first, when we talk about treatment options, we frame treatment based on a couple things. So, one is, we talk extensively about the disease biology. So, that plays an important role in how we decide which treatment the patient should get.  

And then, the second part about how – I would probably say there’s about four main parts. And so, disease biology is one, and another thing has to do with the patient characteristics. In terms of the patient’s overall health prior to developing cancer, and also how the cancer has impacted their health in terms of everyday activities. Whether or not a person has really slowed down quickly, whether they’ve been in the hospital, and how it’s impacting their organs. Because that plays a role in terms of what we’re able to give patients.  

If a patient has advanced kidney failure, which can sometimes happen, or if you have to focus more on protecting their bones and if there’s concern about fractures and things like that. And then independent of patient characteristics in terms of overall health, the last part I talk to patients about is their own preferences. It’s a hard thing to talk about, shared decision-making in a cancer that most people have never heard about, but there is certainly – when we talk about options and there are, it’s important to talk about shared decision-making in terms of what’s most important to them and where they – and most patients will say, “Well, I just want the best medicine.” 

And I say to them, “Well, you know, we have lots of options, and that’s the best thing about it, but we also want to be cognizant of the real world, of giving best options,” and for example, Many of my patients – so, I’m at The Ohio State University, I’m here. And a lot of patients travel. I have a lot of older patients that I care for, and they’re very independent with travel. And I want to make sure that whatever therapies we’re getting for them, that we can do this in such a way that maintains their lifestyle.  

So, the beginning part of a treatment, it is broadly described as – when we talk about someone who was diagnosed with this, it’s this thing called induction. So, induction is when we give anywhere from two to four medications to be able to control their cancer and put it into remission. And we know that the cancer is in remission because, like we started out the conversation with Dr. Cottini, myeloma makes proteins. Oftentimes, it makes proteins, those proteins are not nutrition proteins but are cancer proteins that we can track in the blood. 

So, we can check them every month and to make sure that the patients are having a really good response, and as such, we’re able to define that they’re responding to their treatment. Because they have a beginning stage in induction, which they’re given treatment, and then the goal is to put patients put in remission. 

Depending on the overall health of the patient, a standard of care for most patients diagnosed with multiple myeloma is to undergo an autologous stem cell transplant. An autologous stem cell transplant is not a transplant in which you’re getting cells from your brother or sister and they’re being donated to you. They are your own stem cells. We get them out of you when your bone marrow is free of disease, and then we would admit you to the hospital for a more intensive therapy and give them back.  

That is often the standard of care for patients newly diagnosed with multiple myeloma and it is recommended for most patients. Some patients get – I like to think of it as a stem cell transplant not at the time of their initial diagnosis, but later on at the time of relapse or some patients are not candidates for a transplant or elect not to have a transplant. And all of these options are very personalized to the patient. It’s very hard to say that this is exactly what we do. 

Because it’s a strategy where it requires a lot of shared decision-making to make sure that we’re getting good disease control, good quality of life, and deep, deep remissions for our patients. So, then, if a patient gets a transplant, there’s a period of recovery, and then patients go on a pill most often, a maintenance pill that they stay on for indefinitely. 

Myeloma is also a cancer which has perpetual therapy. Very different than many other cancers, where there’s a beginning and an end, myeloma for the most part is perpetual therapy, where you get some form of therapy at higher dosages versus lower dosages over a period of time.  

So, I’m going to talk broadly about the classes of drugs that we have and how we use them to be able to define therapy. 

So, the first class of drugs are called proteasome inhibitors. Just like many other cancers, we use different types of drugs to be able to target different aspects of a cancer cell’s growth cycle.  

So, very similar to how we do other drugs, these are very specific to the cancer cell, and they’re very targeted. So, unlike some of our other kind of classic chemotherapies, many of these medicines that I’m going to talk about are very targeted at the cancer cells without causing too many other problems. 

So, proteasome inhibitors include drugs like bortezomib (Velcade), which is given as a shot, carfilzomib (Kyprolis), which is given as an IV, or ixazomib (Ninlaro), which is given as a pill. They have different indications, but they’re the same class of drugs.  

The next class of drugs is called immunomodulatory drugs, or iMiDs. This includes things like lenalidomide (Revlimid), pomalidomide (Pomalyst). Those are the most common, and then we sometimes use the drug that the original iMiD drug, which is called thalidomide (Contergan). 

These are all pills that patients take, and so that’s oftentimes very nice for patients to be able to provide therapy at home, very well-tolerated. The next class of drugs are called monoclonal antibodies. On a cancerous cell, there is a marker. 

And so, we use monoclonal antibodies to be able to target the marker on the cancer cell. What that means is very specific. To that cancer cell, so, the most common target is the CD38, that’s a marker on one of the cancer cells. And we use a drug called daratumumab (Darzalex), that can be given as an IV or a subcutaneous agent, or another drug called isatuximab (Sarclisa). We also have other markers on the plasma cell. There’s a marker called SLAMF7, which we have other drugs called elotuzumab (Empliciti), which is often used for patients more in the relapse setting.  

Katherine:

Dr. Cottini, I’m wondering if you could briefly go over CAR T-cell therapy and bispecific antibodies. 

Dr. Cottini:

Yes, of course. So, these are all our new therapeutic approaches for patients. And these are types of treatments that are given to patients that already went through their induction, they went into remission, maybe they had a bone marrow transplant. And then, after a couple of years or months, unfortunately the disease came back, and they need the new and different treatment options. So, these two strategies, CAR T and bispecific antibodies, really rely on the T-cells, on the immune cells of the patient.  

And they all focus and target a specific marker on the plasma cells, but they work a little bit differently. So, the bispecific antibodies – and we have different antibodies.  

Some are approved by the FDA, some are just in clinical trials trials. They practically recognize something that is on the plasma cells, on the myeloma cells, that can be BCMA, GPRC5D, or other targets. So, at the same time that I am able to get close by the T cells, the immune cells, and in this way, practically there is both the antibodies and also the immune cells which is activating and getting rid of the cancer cells. 

So, these are infusions. Often, they’re done initially in the hospital and then in the outpatient setting. Sometimes it’s even every week, every other week or so.  

CAR T are different strategies, and it’s a very smart way of trying to get rid of the cancer cells. So, practically, these are T cells.  

So, these are immune cells from you, from the patient. And they are practically taken and then brought to a very specific and clean facilities where these T cells are modified in order to be able to recognize the cancer cells.  

And then these cancer cells are sent back to us and then practically they are given into the veins to patient, and then there is this kind of reaction of these T cells, which are very peppy and aggressive to be able to kill all the remaining cancer cells. So, these are all the new strategies. 

Obviously, we are kind of like in the early process, but these are very promising therapies I think we’ll be maybe moved up front even with diagnosis in the next 10, 20 years, we don’t know. 

Katherine:

I want to thank you both so much for your thoughtful responses. And as we close out the program, I’d like to get a final comment from each of you. What are you excited about in myeloma research, and why should patients be hopeful? Dr. Cottini?  

Dr. Cottini:

So, I think that especially if we look back especially at where myeloma was 20 or 30 years, I think we have made so many progresses, and there is really hope for our patients. I’m very passionate about research. That’s what I do. That’s why I read paper, I publish paper, and I think that it’s the heterogeneity of our disease is huge, and it’s difficult to tackle. But we as researchers, as physicians are the ones that can look at these changes, and find new therapies for our patients. So, I think that research is the way to go to be able to finally cure our patients. 

Katherine:

Dr. Rosko? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, I mean I go Dr. Cottini’s sentiments. The multiplying therapies for myeloma really provides our ability to prescribe and make myeloma more of a chronic illness for our patients. I think it’s really important to allow patients to get really good targeted therapy personalized to them. Of course, we all are looking forward here to deep remissions. We want to be able to do that in such a way where we have good quality life for our patients. 

I think, importantly, as part of this program does here, we have to create access. So, most of myeloma is treated in the community, and most myeloma is diagnosed in older adults. And I really think how important it is, we talk about clinical trials, and being able to get our patients on to clinical trials, and to be able to get more knowledge about the disease process of pathogenesis, which I think is just really pivotal. 

So, I’m excited about personalizing therapy to the individual’s health and really being able to increase access to all of these novel therapies that we have. For patients, often at specialized cancer centers, but I’m really interested in how we can increase reach and access for all of these advances in myeloma research to every patient no matter where they’re at. 

Katherine:

Well, thank you both for joining us today. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.  

 

Myeloma Testing and Treatment: Insist on Better Care

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In this podcast, Charise Gleason a nurse practitioner, provides an overview of myeloma. Charise discusses necessary myeloma testing, how test results may affect treatment options, and why patients should ask questions and seek advice from their healthcare team without hesitation.

About the Guest:
Charise Gleason is a nurse practitioner specializing in myeloma and serves as the Advanced Practice Provider Chief at Winship Cancer Institute of Emory University. Learn more about Charise, here.

Don’t miss an episode and subscribe to PEN’s Empowered! Podcast wherever podcasts are available.

Myeloma Treatment Decisions: Insist on Essential Testing

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In this podcast, myeloma expert Dr. Amrita Krishnan explains the essential testing that should follow a diagnosis, how the results could impact myeloma therapy, and discusses new and emerging treatments.

Dr. Amrita Krishnan is Director of the Judy and Bernard Briskin Center for Multiple Myeloma Research at City of Hope in Duarte, CA. Learn more about Dr. Krishnan: https://www.cityofhope.org/people/krishnan-amrita.

Don’t miss an episode and subscribe to PEN’s Empowered! Podcast wherever podcasts are available.

New Developments in Myeloma Therapy

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This podcast was originally published by The Cancer Cast with Weill Cornell here.

 

 

Adriana Rossi, MD – Speaker Bio