Tag Archive for: diagnostic tests

How Can You Access Personalized Lung Cancer Treatment?

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How do diagnostic tests affect your lung cancer treatment plan. Dr. Tejas Patil discusses appropriate testing for lung cancer, latest targeted therapies and how emerging research is affecting patient outcomes.

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About the Guest:
Dr. Tejas Patil is an academic thoracic oncologist at the University of Colorado Cancer Center focused on targeted therapies and novel biomarkers in lung cancer. Learn more about Dr. Patil, here.

Transcript:

Katherine:

Welcome to Insist! Lung Cancer, a program focused on empowering patients to insist on better care. Today, we’ll discuss the latest advances in lung cancer, including the role of genetic testing and how this may affect treatment options.

I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Joining me is Dr. Tejas Patil. Dr. Patil, would you introduce yourself please?

Dr. Patil:                     

Sure. Thank you for inviting me to speak on this platform. My name is Dr. Tejas Patil. I am an Assistant Professor at the University of Colorado, where I take care of patients diagnosed with thoracic cancers, which include non-small cell lung cancer, small cell lung cancer, and also include mesothelioma and thymic cancers. My main research focus is on molecular alterations in lung cancer and development of targeted therapies.

Katherine:                  

Thank you. Before we start, a reminder that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your own healthcare team.

Dr Patil, before we get into an in-depth discussion on lung cancer, would you tell us about the types of lung cancer?

Dr. Patil:                     

Absolutely. Lung cancer has a bit of a confusing nomenclature. Historically, Lung cancer was divided into small cell lung cancer and non-small cell lung cancer, and this distinction was based on how the lung cancer appeared under a microscope, but it also has practical implications. Small cell lung cancer tends to have a very different biology than non-small cell lung cancer. It originates from neuroendocrine cells and is treated very differently than non-small cell lung cancer.

Non-small cell lung cancer is also a bit of a misleading term because it really is a catch-all term. It represents a wide group of histologies that are not small cell lung cancer. So, basically, anything that isn’t small cell lung cancer will be non-small cell lung cancer, but that group is very heterogenous and includes subtypes like adenocarcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, adenosquamous, large cell and even sarcoma type variance.

Distinguishing between the two is important because the prognosis and treatment options are actually very different between small cell and non-small cell lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

Well, let’s talk about testing and diagnosis. Following a diagnosis, are there specific tests that patients should ask their doctor for?

Dr.  Patil:                    

Right. After a diagnosis of lung cancer has been made, the most important next step is to establish a cancer stage, and so this is typically done through the TNM staging criteria. The T typically reflects the size of the tumor. The N reflects whether there’s lymph nodes involved with cancer and the M refers to whether there’s a metastasis, and metastasis refers to whether the cancer has spread outside of the lung.

Based on a combination of scores using the TNM criteria, lung cancers are staged from one to four. Now, to establish these different scores, oncologists will typically request varieties of scans. These include CT scans, PET CT scans, MRI and in some cases, very sophisticated ultrasound techniques called endobronchial ultrasound, so that’s the staging component. I think, in addition to the staging component, once a patient has a diagnosis of lung cancer, the tissue itself can be subject to a variety of different molecular tests which we will cover in this talk.

Katherine:                  

Well, let’s get into the tests. How are each of these tests administered?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, first let’s discuss imaging.

Staging is a very important component of lung cancer, and at minimum, a patient should have a CT scan of the chest and abdomen with extension down to the adrenal glands. The reason for this is that this type of imaging, at least the extent of the imaging, will cover most of the metastatic sites that lung cancer tends to go towards. Additionally, a PET CT scan can be obtained.

Now, a PET scan is a very unique form of imaging. Patients will receive a radio labeled form of glucose and the principle of a PET scan is that since cancers metabolize glucose, which is sugar at a higher rate than normal tissue, the scan in principle helps clinicians identify spots where cancer could be. One important point about imaging and this is something patients should be aware of, is that lung cancers are unique cancers in that there’s a very high risk of spread to the brain.

And so, as part of baseline staging, almost every patient with lung cancer should be getting an MRI of the brain to rule out brain metastases.

Then a final point I’ll make is that patients with Stage 2 or 3 lung cancer really should have their cases reviewed in a multi-disciplinary context where there’s input from surgeons, pulmonologists, medical oncologists, and radiation specialists because the treatment for Stage 2 and 3 lung cancer can be quite complicated. I think, and we’ll talk about the – so, that was the staging part. Now, we can talk a little bit more about the diagnostic testing and molecular testing specifically.                    

There’s been tremendous advances in lung cancer. One of the biggest advances has been the appreciation that there are very specific mutations that actually “drive” cancers that cause them to grow, divide and metastasize.

We call this mutation an oncogene. Over the past two decades, there have been many oncogenes in lung cancer that have been identified. Interestingly several of these oncogenes, such as the ALK mutation, or the EGFR mutation, tend to occur in patients who were never smokers.

So, while smoking is the major environmental risk factor for lung cancer, our understanding of these, through molecular testing has identified a group of patients who were never smokers yet still developed lung cancer. The reason this is important to know is that there’s a variety of targeted therapies available for patients who do have mutations such as ALK or EGFR, and these are typically associated with very favorable outcomes in lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

What are common lung cancer mutations, first of all?

Dr. Patil:                     

There are many mutations that are found in lung cancer. I should mention that the scope of what mutations we find very much depends on the type of molecular test that’s performed. This is a topic that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, but know that when you say you are getting genetic testing, a lot of that depends on the genes that are in the test, meaning if a molecular test is only looking for 10 genes, or 10 mutations, it’s only going to pick up 10 mutations versus more comprehensive molecular testing, which look at hundreds or even thousands of genes, will identify more mutations.

That being said, there are approximately 10 mutations currently for which there are targeted therapies, either that are commercially licensed through the FDA, or are being evaluated in the context of the clinical trial.

And in patients who are heavy smokers, the most common mutation that we see that’s an oncogene is a KRAS mutation, and there’s currently drugs in clinical trials that are looking to target a very specific KRAS mutation. 

Dr. Patil:                     

In never smokers, the mutation spectrum is actually quite a bit more varied, and here, we see mutations such as ALK, EGFR, ROS1, RET, MET, HER2 and BRAF.

I want to make a quick point that there’s another biomarker that we use in lung cancer that’s not technically a mutation, per se, but it’s very important for clinicians to obtain, and that’s called a PD-L1 score. This is a score that helps clinicians decide how effective immunotherapy can be in a certain patient.

Katherine:                  

Are some mutations more common than others?

Dr. Patil:                     

Yes. I mean, there are mutations that are very common. I think to answer that question a little bit more in this cleanly, I would say that there are some mutations that are very common in lung cancer such as TP53, but these are mutations where we can’t actually, we don’t have a targeted approach to manage them. So, when I refer to common mutations, I’m talking about mutations where I either have a drug that is available and able to target the mutation, and this drug is being either investigated in a clinical trial, or is commercially licensed.

In lung cancer, the most common oncogene would be KRAS, and there, there’s a couple of exciting clinical trials where there are some promising drugs in development for treating this specific mutation which has been very challenging to treat in lung cancer.

Katherine:                  

How is genetic testing for lung cancer different from hereditary genetic testing?

Dr. Patil:                     

That’s a great question. We have learned that there are several cancers, such as breast and colorectal cancer, where there’s clear evidence that there are hereditary genes that increase an individual’s risk for developing cancer. I personally prefer the term molecular testing over genetic testing as this emphasizes that we’re looking for specific mutations that are really acquired during a patient’s lifetime and typically not inherited.

Katherine:                  

How do genetic mutations in lung cancer affect treatment options for patients?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, the finding of a molecular alteration, or an oncogene, is really important for a patient with lung cancer because it offers a unique class of therapy that the patient would not have had otherwise. Finding a mutation is important because it allows patients to have treatment options outside of traditional chemotherapy or immunotherapy.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Patil, how do targeted therapies work?

Dr. Patil:                     

Targeted therapies are interesting. They work by specifically targeting and blocking specific mutations in lung cancer, and so it’s kind of like a lock and key model. By blocking the binding site of a mutation, the treatment actually prevents that cancer cell from properly functioning, and this in turn causes the cancer cell to be unable to divide, unable to grow, and ultimately results in cancer cell death. Targeted therapies typically come in either a form of a pill.

That’s the most common way that patients take targeted therapies.

As an aside, I will note that there’s a very unique class of targeted therapies called antibody-drug conjugates. These are really fascinating molecules. They are treatments that are consistent, but very complex, bioengineered structures, so what you have is an antibody that targets some protein on the surface of a cancer cell, a mutation.

This antibody is linked to a chemotherapy payload, and so it allows for very potent chemotherapy to be delivered effectively and selectively to cancer cells, sort of like a Trojan Horse effect where the antibody finds the cancer cell, goes inside the cancer cell, and once the whole structure is inside the cell, that’s when the chemotherapy is released.

Therefore, it’s a way of giving chemotherapy in a more targeted way, and there are several of these in clinical trials right now.

Katherine:                  

Well, you mentioned patients taking pills. What other treatment regimens are there for the targeted therapies?

Dr. Patil:                     

For targeted therapies, the most common is a pill. The schedule depends on the mutation, so it can sometimes be once a day or twice a day. And then, there are IV treatments that we see, and that is the antibody drug conjugate that I’m referring to where patients will have to go to a infusion center to get those. But to my knowledge, most of those are still in the context of a clinical trial, and so I think it’ll be a while before we start seeing them commercially licensed.

Katherine:                  

How do the newer therapies differ from the more traditional chemotherapy?

Dr. Patil:                     

Chemotherapy is still an important tool in an oncologist’s arsenal.

It works by killing, or rather it works by affecting a cancer cell’s ability to divide and grow. The logic here is that since cancer cells typically grow faster than normal cells, chemotherapy is more likely to kill cancer cells. It should be noted that while that is true, there are certain cells in the human body that grow very quickly as well, such as hair follicles, the lining of the mouth, and cells within the bone marrow. And so, as a result, it’s very common that the side effects of chemotherapy typically affect these cells, so you typically see hair loss. You see mucositis, or inflammation of the mouth, diarrhea, and low blood counts, and this a general side effect of chemotherapy.

Katherine:                  

Are there common side effects for some of the newer therapies as well?

Dr.  Patil:                    

That’s a great question and the way I’m going to answer that is it depends on the mutation that the targeted therapy’s affecting. So, a mutation that I’m going to use as an example is a mutation called EGFR. Now, this is a mutation that we see in lung cancer that causes cancer cells to grow, divide, and metastasize.

But EGFR is interesting because it also is found in normal cells, and specifically it’s found in the cells of the skin and the gut lining. This is an example where you’re giving a very targeted therapy that’s trying to attack just the cancer cell, but because normal skin cells and gut cells have this EGFR receptor, the side effects there tend to be rash and diarrhea. Now, that’s unique to EGFR. There are other drugs such as the ALK mutation or the ROS1 mutation that do not have this side effect because that specific receptor is not found in the human body.

Katherine:                  

Oh, I see. Well, how is the effectiveness of treatment monitored?

Dr. Patil:                     

Typically, I have the philosophy that patients generally know their body and can tell when symptoms are getting better or worse. So, as a guiding principle, I rely on patient input very heavily. That being said, I corroborate that experience with some testing. In my practice, I frequently use what we call serum tumor markers, so these are very nonspecific-like tests that sort of let us know if there’s cancer type proteins in the blood that we can detect while they are on targeted therapy.

And then additionally I would recommend that patients get scans frequently, at the minimum every three months if they are on targeted therapy and doing otherwise well. That includes a CT scan of the chest and abdomen, and in certain cases, an MRI of the brain, if there were brain metastases before.

Katherine:                  

Is it necessary to retest at any time?

Dr. Patil:                     

This is a good question and it’s an evolving question. In general, I strongly advocate that patients who are on targeted therapies obtain additional molecular testing after they’ve progressed, and the reason is the following. Cancer cells evolve resistance mechanisms to overcome targeted therapies and understanding these resistance mechanisms can be quite helpful in designing next lines of treatments.

A very good example of this is in EGFR lung cancer. The very first type of targeted therapy for EGFR positive lung cancer was a drug called Erlotinib. What we had seen was that when patients were on this drug, Erlotinib, they would respond, and they would do really well for a period of time.

But after a period of time, patients would progress on this therapy, and a very common mutation that we would find, once they progressed was a mutation called T790M. By biopsying this patient and finding this mutation, it was very helpful because it allowed the medical community and researchers to investigate a new drug called Osimertinib, which can overcome that resistance mutation.

And we’re learning a lot about resistance pathways and resistance mutations in lung cancer, so I think it’s very important that patients who are on targeted therapies specifically get retested and re-biopsied.

Katherine:

Let’s move on then. Dr. Patil, what are you excited about in lung cancer research right now?

Dr. Patil:                     

I thought ASCO 2020 this year was a very exciting cancer conference, and I’m very excited about where lung cancer research is going. I think there are two areas to be very hopeful about.

First, is that there have been several oncogenes or mutations that we had known about for a very long time, but there was just no targeted therapy available. I think in the next several years, you’re going to start to see more and more targeted therapies available for patients who have otherwise rare mutations.

And examples of this would include KRAS G12C, RET, Met and HER2, so this is very exciting because these were mutations that we had known about for a long time, but just until more recently really haven’t had any successful therapy for.

The other area that’s very exciting is that we’re starting to see the use of targeted therapy and immunotherapy in patients who have earlier stage cancer. So, there was a lot of talk this ASCO about using targeted therapies in patients who have, for example, Stage 3 lung cancer, and is there a benefit in doing that? I think that’s going to be a very interesting development of patients who have Stage 1 to 3, which we typically treat with curative intent, how do we make sure that they improve their outcomes and really stay cured?

Katherine:                  

Right. What would you say to patients who are nervous about participating in a clinical trial?

Dr. Patil:                     

That’s a great question. I really appreciate you asking that. In general, I would highly recommend patients consider clinical trials. I think there’s a couple of things to point out. It’s very important to remember that clinical trials are evaluating novel therapies as compared to current standard best practice. So, placebos are rarely used in cancer research unless there’s no known effective therapy. It’s important to remember, it’s not ethical to have someone take placebo if there’s known treatment that work, so when a patient enrolls in a clinical trial, sometimes they don’t know which treatment they’re getting, but at least they will know that whatever treatment they’re getting is the best current standard of care.

I want to also point out that clinical trials really answer, in my mind, two important questions. The first question is, is the new treatment safe? And does the new treatment work better than current standard of care? These are really important questions for advancing the field, especially in cancer research. Clinical trials are a small part of the research. I mean, when a drug that’s getting introduced into a clinical trial, it’s sometimes helpful to think about all the investment that has gone in before them. The drug has to be discovered, created.

It has to be purified, tested in animal studies, before it ever reaches human studies. And so, there’s only the most promising agents are actually ever introduced at clinical trials, and there’s a lot of data to show that the biggest barrier for completing clinical trials, and therefore understanding which treatments are effective, is really participant enrollment.

I think there was a recent study that showed that about, I think less than five percent of patients, less than 1 in 20, with cancer will ever take part in a clinical trial, Therefore, if a patient has that opportunity, I would strongly encourage them to consider it.  

Katherine:                  

Do you think a second opinion is necessary? Would you encourage patients to consult with another specialist?

Dr. Patil:                     

In general, I’m a big advocate that patients should get all the information they need to make informed treatment decisions, and if that involves getting second opinions, I welcome that.

 I think that a knowledgeable patient is an empowered patient, and certainly a knowledgeable patient is one that I think will be able to guide themselves through a very complex medical journey. So, in general my philosophy is I’m always encouraging of second opinions if the patient feels that they need more information to make a best decision.    

Katherine:                  

What advice do you have for patients who may be hesitant to speak up and advocate for themselves when it comes to their care and treatment?

Dr. Patil:                     

Great question. In general, I’m a big believer that an empowered patient is a patient that can make really good medical decisions as they navigate their own medical journey. Ultimately, it’s important for patients to be knowledgeable and seek multiple opinions. Really get the best advice, so that they make the best decisions. Oncology is a very complicated field. The treatment options can be very nuanced.

Therefore, it’s important to know that when a decision is presented to a patient, that it is a decision that is made with the knowledge of what is the best standard of care. But if the patient doesn’t feel like they have the most informed data to guide their own medical decision making, then it’s really important for them to advocate for themselves.

To that point, especially for some of these rarer mutations, there are many social media patient advocacy groups that are very, very, very well organized, very effective, and have a list of really useful questions. Some examples of that are the ALK Positives and the EGFR Resisters.

Katherine:                  

Okay. I would be remiss if we didn’t discuss COVID-19 to some extent. What should lung cancer patients be considering at this time?

Dr. Patil:                     

This is also a very important and timely question. lung cancer patients are certainly at very high risk of complications from COVID-19. And it’s understandable, especially given the kinds of treatments that patients with lung cancer receive, that there’s a lot of them will wind up having compromised immunity which makes them at increased risk for adverse outcomes from COVID-19. That being said, I think it’s really important that this be balanced with the actual risk of untreated or inadequately treated lung cancer, which is also a major medical concern. What I tell patients is that, at least at our institution, we do everything we can to create an environment that is as safe as possible from a COVID mitigation standpoint.

But at the end of the day, untreated lung cancer can have a very aggressive course, and so making sure that patients understand that as we try to move things to a more telemedicine type approach, that there are some things where you really just have to come and see your doctor. Not everything can be done virtually.

Katherine:                  

Right, and my next question was is telemedicine the best approach right now?

Dr. Patil:                     

Well, that’s also, I’m going to answer that in a somewhat frustrating way, which is that there’s – yes and no. I think telemedicine is helpful for patients who have very stable disease and are on anti-cancer treatment, so specifically a patient on targeted therapy, for example.

A pill once a day. Their last scans show that they’re doing really well. They feel well. They’re exercising every day. That patient, probably we can do a visit virtually and just make sure and check in that there’s nothing new or concerning that’s come up.

The other patient that probably I can see a role for telemedicine is someone who had, let’s say, a Stage 1 lung cancer that was treated with surgery, and we’re just monitoring them on surveillance. That patient probably doesn’t have to come into the clinic to see us. But in general, the thing about lung cancer is that most patients are getting some kind of chemotherapy or immunotherapy and will be coming into an infusion center, and so what I would tell patients is if there’s any new or concerning symptoms, to a very low threshold for seeking an in-person evaluation.

Katherine:                  

As a researcher in this field, Dr. Patil, what do you want to leave the audience with? Are you hopeful?

Dr. Patil:                     

I’m very hopeful. I think, it’s kind of amazing when I look at the history of lung cancer and where the field was in the 2000s, now that we’re in 2020, and what remarkable advances have been made in 20 years. It’s worth reminding patients that in 2000, there was, platinum chemotherapy was the first line for metastatic lung cancer, and then there was a second line chemotherapy and that was basically it. Now we’re in an era where we have extensive molecular testing of lung cancer. We’re identifying new mutations that can be targeted with very sophisticated pill-based therapies. We have immunotherapy. We’re learning about how these combine with each other to produce the most optimal outcomes, so I think in 20 years a lot has been achieved, and I’m really excited to see where we go from here.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Patil, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Patil:                     

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. This was wonderful.

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners.

To learn more about lung cancer, and to access tools to help you become a more proactive patient, visit www.powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell.  

What Barriers Do Prostate Cancer Patients Face When Seeking Care?

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What Barriers Do Prostate Cancer Patients Face When Seeking Care? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What barriers do prostate cancer patients face in gaining access to care? Host Dr. Nicole Rochester and Dr. Yaw Nyame and Dr. Petros Grivas share their perspectives on factors that impact access to care and ways some barriers can be removed to improve prostate cancer care.

See More From Best Prostate Cancer Care No Matter Where You Live

Related Resources:

How Can I Get the Best Prostate Cancer Care No Matter Where I Live?

Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Drs. Nyame and Grivas, we know that location, socioeconomic status, insurance, financial hardships, lack of urologists in rural areas, geographic distance services and access to transportation all play an important role in the outcomes for patients and families facing a prostate cancer diagnosis. So, I want to start with our first question, and we’ll start with you, Dr. Grivas, what are some of the barriers, both prostate cancer patients and their care partners face when seeking care? 

Dr. Grivas:

The number of those factors have to do with the location of the patient as you mentioned, patients regardless of race, if they live in a rural community, then they have less communication or contact with a medical care system, and that’s in all reality there’s data suggesting that a cruelty to states this access to care issue is becoming more and more noticeable, and the distance involved in some ways to get a medical facility, let alone a specialized medical facility, specialized in-person culture. It can be a big problem. The other issue that we have seen many times, again, in some communities more than others, is a healthcare literacy and the preventive mindset as I call it, and that again, can transpire across races, but maybe even more intense in some of the populations. And when I talk about health literacy and preventive mindset, it’s about the relationship, an individual of the healthcare system, and sometimes the distrust, right, that may take place and also the, I would say comfort that the patient has to enter and access a medical care system that they can allow the providers to take care of them, and these are real, I would say, examples that we have seen based on having this concern of letting sales be taken care of in a medical system, competing problems and barriers include financial contraction, that’s a big one.  

Insurance coverage. We know that patients who…I would say social determinants of health may have not very good coverage, and this may be restricting award medical facilities that they can access, and also the cost of care, co-pays, for example, when diagnostic tests or acute interventions for orderly available agents can be a big carrier and no compliance can be diminished with co-pay. Of course, you mentioned many other factors, transportation issues, finding coverage of work, getting day off work can be a problem for some patients, and also the cost of transportation or lodging or parking sometimes can be a problem or even the anxiety to go to a big city and deal with a traffic, of course. So there are many factors, of course, but I think we have to have a systematic approach how to catalog them and address them in a comprehensive way, and I think there are some improvements and we can talk about them today, for example, telemedicine and others, but I think the list is long, and we have to keep an open mind and engaged patient advocates in cataloging those barriers. Maybe Dr. Nyame can comment further in that regard. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

You covered a lot of ground, and I appreciate that. Dr. Nyame, I’d love for you to either add to that list or maybe expand based on your perspectives. 

Dr. Nyame: 

Dr. Grivas didn’t leave me with much to cover, which is great. I think what you hear, in his answer to that question is that this is really a social issue, and I think when we talk about inequities in health, we have to recognize that race in this country, and many places around the world really reflects a social construct, and so the things that really predict how people are going to be able to utilize our services and how well they’re going to do reflect that greater social context, and so to me…you have to meet the patient where they are. And the strength of the relationships that you can build between the healthcare system and the communities that are at risk, especially the ones that have the highest disproportionate risk of bad outcomes or not being able to utilize services is important. And so the barriers include all the things we talked about, but a lot of them that we’ve talked about have been very much healthcare-facing, so we talk about transportation, what we mean that in the source of transportation to our facilities or we talk about money, but we talk about money and the ability to pay for our services, we also miss the other ways in which those social barriers and factors impact the ability to prioritize one’s health. 

Dr. Nyame: 

And so that is a really big problem. And something that we also need to put in the context of this conversation. I think when we take the covers off and we really see what our patients’ lives are like, sometimes we recognize that it’s not just about their ability to utilize the services that we provide, but that there are bigger issues at hand that also need addressing. Those aren’t in Dr. Grivas and I’s domain, but I think we have to understand those things to meet our patients where they are. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Absolutely, I really appreciate that both of you have really focused on those social determinants of health. I appreciate you mentioning racism, and the fact that the patients being able to prioritize their health, I think historically in medicine, we have blamed our patients for not taking care of themselves, so to speak, without a full appreciation of all of these barriers that both of you have just identified, so I really appreciate that. 

How Can I Get the Best Prostate Cancer Care No Matter Where I Live?

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How Can I Get the Best Prostate Cancer Care No Matter Where I Live? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

How can prostate cancer patients ensure they get quality care even if they live in rural areas? Noted experts, Dr. Petros Grivas and Dr. Yaw Nyame share advice and discuss how to receive optimal care no matter your geography or financial status. Learn about resources and digital tools you can utilize to ensure better care no matter where you live. 

See More From Best Prostate Cancer Care No Matter Where You Live

Related Resources:

Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Hello and welcome. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, your host for today’s Patient Empowerment Network program, and we are so happy that you’ve tuned in. Today we’re going to be talking about how prostate cancer patients can truly get the best care no matter where you and your family live, we’re going to talk about things like how can I remove roadblocks in my care to gain access to state-of-the-art treatment? Will my insurance limit me if I wanna get a second opinion as a care partner, how do I best advocate for my loved one and is a clinical right for me? The answers to some of these questions we receive revolve around awareness, feeling empowered to ask questions and connecting to the right resources at the right time. In this program we’ll be learning just that as we meet our experts. It is my honor and privilege to be joined by Dr. Petros Grivas, Associate Professor and clinical director of the genitourinary cancer program at the University of Washington. And Dr. Yaw Nyame, Assistant Professor in the Department of Urology at the University of Washington. Thank you so much for joining us today, gentlemen. 

Dr. Nyame:

Thank you for having us. 

Dr. Grivas: 

Thank you so much for having us. It’s an honor and pleasure to be with you. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

It is my honor as well. Please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical care, so please be sure to connect with your healthcare team on the best options for you. Now, let’s take a few minutes to set the stage and give a brief overview of barriers in the way of achieving equitable prostate cancer treatment. Doctors Nyame and Grivas, we know that location, socioeconomic status, insurance, financial hardships, lack of urologists in rural areas, geographic distance services and access to transportation all play an important role in the outcomes for patients and families facing a prostate cancer diagnosis. So, I wanna start with our first question, and we’ll start with you, Dr. Grivas, what are some of the barriers that prostate cancer, let me do that one again. What are some of the barriers, both prostate cancer patients and their care partners face when seeking care? 

Dr. Grivas: 

Thank you so much. These are really important discussions, and I’m glad we’re doing this program. I think you covered a number of those barriers in your introduction, and I would definitely agree with all of them because many of them are important. The number of those factors have to do with the location of the patient as you mentioned, patients regardless of race, if they live in a rural community, then they have less communication or contact with a medical care system, and that’s in all reality there’s data suggesting that a cruelty to states this access to care issue is becoming more and more noticeable, and the distance involved in some ways to get a medical facility, let alone a specialized medical facility, specialized in-person culture. It can be a big problem. The other issue that we have seen many times, again, in some communities more than others, is healthcare literacy and the preventive mindset as I call it, and that again, can transpire across races, but maybe even more intense in some of the populations. And when I talk about health literacy and preventive mindset, it’s about the relationship, an individual of the healthcare system, and sometimes the distrust, right, that may take place and also the, I would say comfort that the patient has to enter and access a medical care system that they can allow the providers to take care of them, and these are real, I would say, examples that we have seen based on having this concern of letting sales be taken care of in a medical system, competing problems and barriers include financial contraction, that’s a big one. 

Insurance coverage. We know that patients who… I would say social determinants of health may have not very good coverage, and this may be restricting award medical facilities that they can access, and also the cost of care, co-pays, for example, when diagnostic tests or acute interventions for orderly available agents can be a big carrier and no compliance can be diminished with co-pay. Of course, you mentioned many other factors, transportation issues, finding coverage of work, getting day off work can be a problem for some patients, and also the cost of transportation or lodging or parking sometimes can be a problem or even the anxiety to go to a big city and deal with a traffic of course. So there are many factors, of course, but I think we have to have a systematic approach how to catalog them and address them in a comprehensive way, and I think there are some improvements and we can talk about them today, for example, telemedicine and others, but I think the list is long, and we have to keep an open mind and engaged patient advocates in cataloging those barriers. Maybe Dr. Nyame can comment further in that regard.  

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Thank you so much, Dr. Grivas, yeah, you covered a lot of ground, and I appreciate that Dr. Nyame I’d love for you to either add to that list or maybe expand based on your perspectives. 

Dr. Nyame:

Dr. Grivas didn’t leave me with much to cover, which is great. I think what you hear, in his answer to that question is that this is really a social issue, and I think when we talk about inequities in health, we have to recognize that race in this country, and many places around the world really reflects a social construct, and so the things that really predict how people are going to be able to utilize our services and how well they’re going to do reflect that greater social context, and so to me… You have to meet the patient where they are. And the strength of the relationships that you can build between the healthcare system and the communities that are at risk, especially the ones that have the highest disproportionate risk of bad outcomes or not being able to utilize services is important. And so the barriers include all the things we talked about, but a lot of them that we’ve talked about have been very much healthcare-facing, so we talk about transportation, what we mean that in the source of transportation to our facilities or we talk about money, but we talk about money and the ability to pay for our services, we also miss the other ways in which those social barriers and factors impact the ability to prioritize one’s health. 

And so that is a really big problem. And something that we also need to put in the context of this conversation. I think when we take the covers off and we really see what our patients’ lives are like, sometimes we recognize that it’s not just about their ability to utilize the services that we provide, but that there are bigger issues at hand that also need addressing. Those aren’t in Dr. Grivas and I’s domain, but I think we have to understand those things to meet our patients where they are. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Absolutely, I really appreciate that both of you have really focused on those social determinants of health. I appreciate you mentioning racism, and the fact that the patients being able to prioritize their health, I think historically in medicine, we have blamed our patients for not taking care of themselves, so to speak, without a full appreciation of all of these barriers that both of you have just identified, so I really appreciate that. 

So we started slightly to talk about solutions, but let’s shift to solutions and what are some of the solutions that you all recommend for some of these barriers, and like you said, as physicians, a lot of that is going to be out of your purview, but I’d love for each of you to suggest any solutions for our patients and care who may be facing some of these barriers, so this time we’ll start with you, Dr. Nyame.  

Dr. Nyame: 

This is an area where I think we need to do better in collecting information to understand where the need is, and so I think there is a very much a need for translational health services or patient-centered research, where we do the simple thing, if I was gonna open up a lemonade stand in the middle of Seattle, I’d probably ask a few people what their needs are around lemonade before I open the stand, and I think in medicine, we often offer our services and solutions without having had that simple conversation of What are the needs? I think in addition to that, we have to understand that equitable care might mean offering additional services for certain populations, so for us at our cancer center, for instance, we’ve recently instituted a patient navigator program, something that’s been around for a long time, and other sites but it’s allowing us to do that, go through that exercise of providing some equitable care by helping people coordinate appointments, find their way to financial resources that might support them, and just to be there as a support in the very difficult time of having a new cancer diagnosis, so I think that’s a well-proven and well-established method for helping people get access to care. 

The other thing I’ll add is that we make decisions, I think as humans, we make decisions through community, and sometimes that’s our partner, sometimes that somebody at the gym, sometimes that’s a co-worker, and there are a lot of really fantastic patient advocacy networks that exist that can help people find this new community, and I think cancer patients share a very unique bond and in a very unique way to communicate with one another because they’re living through this particular diagnosis, and so for in the case of prostate cancer, especially prostate cancer in black men, you have the Prostate Health Education Network, you have Zero Cancer, you have Us TOO, you have the Prostate Cancer Foundation, probably leaving some advocacy groups off and I’m probably gonna get in trouble, but I think that there’s that opportunity to reach out to others and just learn… What did you go through, what worked for you? How can I meet my goals of care through just conversation with other patients and survivors, and I’ll try to leave something for Dr. Grivas to the conversation ’cause clearly I could go on and on. 

Nicole Rochester: 

Dr. Grivas? 

Dr. Grivas: 

I’ll tell you that I am learning every day from Dr. Nyame. He’s fantastic work in this important topic, and I think he covered the answer so well, if I can just add a few more things just to expand on this sorts. And these are things that already he’s doing in his programmatic development in our institution as well. I think one of the important things we have to acknowledge is the issue of systemic racism and implicit bias that I think you referred to Dr. Rochester. I think the more we talk about, the more transparent we are with it, the better because we can think about what are unconscious or subconscious thoughts that we may have, you know this patient doesn’t care about themselves. Why should we go the extra mile to help them? We should go the extra mile to help them because this patient may have less inside of the situation, and they need more resources and as a healthcare system, we should try to earn that patient, right? We should not let that patient go because every patient matters, right? And I think every life matters. I think that’s important. I think overall a systemic issue to discuss. The other thing is getting our sense of the community, and I think the examples of studies we have done in the clinic and other areas that we try to utilize the wisdom and the help of local leaders in those communities for example, underserved populations go to local churches or barber shops or gyms as Dr. Nyame mentioned and collaborate, work with the local leaders and see how we can have a dialogue with the patients there. How can we establish this trust that may be missing, how we can convey that health is important, and prevention is important, and treatment is important, how can we help with financial constraints, right? How can we get patients to the cancer center without them having to worry about how to get there, how can we reach out and have screening in the present county screening in the community, if it’s indicated then access to care telemedicine, and that brings an issue, do the patients have equipment for telemedicine, a computer, we take it for granted, but it may not be. So given those resources, organizing some local centers with this Men’s Health Day, just to get people in a room and educate them, but also learning from them what are the barriers to take it into account, not talk down to them, but learning with them and from them. 

The other thing is research and that will have to do a better job to include an offer in an equitable manor clinical trials to our patients including patients from different races and we are doing, I think, overall, okay, but we are not doing enough, we have to do better in order to provide this opportunities to our patients and the role of patient navigators is great. We can set examples, and we have patients who feel much more comfortable when they have a patient navigator. Sometimes if it happens to be in the same race with a patient then the patient feels more comfortable. They have someone that they can trust or it will be easier to talk to, and I think we should definitely improve and work harder to provide access to research inequitable manor to our patients. The last point I would say is, patient co-pay assistance programs and foundations, I think we can definitely include more resources to our patients, philanthropy, foundation support and state programs in order to give those patients the resource they need again to achieve this holy grail, which is equitable health care. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

I love that you all are focusing on equity, which as we know, is giving every patient what they need in order to achieve their optimal health, and as both of you have stated, that’s very different than equality, and so this concept that we really have to meet our patients where they are, and that some of our patients may be a little bit more than others, and that’s okay, in fact, that’s really what we have to do in order to eliminate these disparities, so I really appreciate both of your thoughts and that’s a great lead in to our next segment, which is really focused on racial and ethnic disparities, and both of you have kind of touched on this a little bit already, so we know that there are as with every other type of cancer and every other disease, there are significant health disparities with BIPOC patients, and so Dr. Nyame, I’d love for you to talk about specifically with prostate cancer, some of the disparities that you see in your practice and in your research, and then what are some things that patients of color can do to protect themselves from these inequities? 

Dr. Nyame: 

This is a very important topic for me, it’s something that I am very passionate about, and as Dr. Grivas alluded to am doing a lot of research on, and I think the statistics are so grey. Black men are 80% more likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer. So the average man in the United States has a one and nine lifetime risk of being diagnosed prostate cancer, that’s probably one in six or one in seven black men. Black men are twice as likely to die from prostate cancer compared to men of other races and ethnicity in the United States, and a lot of this is driven by the social milieu and factors that we’ve talked about today. What troubles me is when we talk about these statistics, I fear that that in of itself is crippling for some black men. If I have this diagnosis and I’m not gonna do well. Why should I do anything? And I can tell you that the literature and all the research that we do, and it gets refreshed every 10 years or so, someone will do the study and it shows that if we have Black men and men of other races or white men, and we give them the same treatment for the same level of disease, that the outcomes are actually very similar, and a better way to state that for me is if you’re diagnosed early and you get the treatment that you should get irrespective of your race, it seems like outcomes can be quite good. 

And so a lot of what we see with regards to prostate cancer inequities are driven by lower treatment rates and probably an impact of lower quality care. And when I say that, what does that mean? Well, do you get your care at places like the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance or the Cleveland Clinic, or John Hopkins or MD Anderson, where you have providers who are expert and do a lot of prostate cancer care, or are you being seen by someone in the community who I guarantee is an excellent clinician, but doesn’t have the same resources and the same expertise in the sense of being focused on one disease process or one set of cancers, for instance, we are genital urinary cancer specialist, a fancy term for being cancer doctors of the plumbing system, but because that’s all we focus on, we know a lot about the process we know what works, and we know what the standards of care. So I think when you can get the right treatment at the right time, and you can get it from teams that are really specialized in this, that our outcomes are going to not care about what your self-defined races when you check box. 

The problem is, how do we get… How do we close that gap that exists currently that doesn’t allow people to get that care, and I think we’ve talked about rurality, so I think… I grew up in Oklahoma, and I could see that if you are in the sticks in Oklahoma and you’re not near a cancer center, like something down in Dallas, that your care might be impacted, but… Especially if you have to travel a lot and it’s expensive. But we have major US cities like Los Angeles where you may share a zip code with a millionaire but use very different health services, so it’s not always a reflection of how far you have to travel, but it also is factors about how welcoming institutions that provide high quality care can feel for populations like our BIPOC populations who sometimes have been the subject of medical experimentation and lower quality care sometimes because they might not get shuttled to the same services historically, and I think we have a lot to undo to rebuild the trust that is required to have black men not be fearful of seeking care from us, but be trusting. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Absolutely, and certainly the COVID pandemic has really brought that whole mistrust and distrust to light, so I appreciate you touching on that. We’re going to move to talk about treatment access, and I love how this conversation is flowing because so many of these elements have already been discussed, so we’re gonna talk about treatment access for prostate cancer patients, and we know that sometimes the barriers that patients face, as you mentioned actually limit their access to quality care and to appropriate treatment. So, Dr. Grivas, how can we ensure that a patient’s geographic location doesn’t dictate the quality of care that they receive? 

 Dr. Grivas: 

A very important question for sure, and I think as you point it out, we have tasked upon this before, but I think it is definitely much more to be said and done. More importantly, I think the location has to do with multiple differences in social constructs, right? The location of the distance from a cancer center with expertise is one thing at the time to get to the cancer center is related to that, and also the social support that the patient may have, if for example, a particular treatment, for example, a clinical trial, the requires a weekly visit to the cancer center, is that the feasible thing for the patient who lives miles and miles away in the rural areas of Oklahoma as Dr. Nyame mentioned or somewhere else. Can we design a clinical trial that are more friendly to these scenarios that require less frequent visits. Can we provide, if possible, funding for housing closer to the Cancer Center, and there are examples of cancer centers doing that. They provide temporary housing for the patient to be able be close the cancer center, so they don’t even worry about going back and forth across the state lines sometimes. 

The other thing, of course, is insurance coverage, and again, this can have some relation to location, and it’s something we have to think about, how can we help our patients who have significant copays because of the recommended insurance to that location being supported by foundation or all other funds that the cancer center or the state, or again, other foundations, we have. The other issues about diagnostics and treatments, there has been some interesting discussion about particularly prostate cancer, about access to what we call next generation sequencing, which is a diagnostic test aiming to profile or fingerprint the cancer DNA to look for particular mutations that the cancer may have that may lead to a particular treatment options. 

If, for example, mutation A is present, can we use a drug X that might be relevant in that context of a mutation and a recent data that was presented at ASCO 2021 showed that if you look at those mutations, they’re not very different between, for example, white and Black patients, there are similar types and frequencies of mutations. What is different is access to the test and, of course, access to the [inaudible] of the test. So I think we have to do a better job bringing ourselves to the community, extending our opportunities to the patient to get connected with the healthcare system, and they’ll build bridges to bring the patient and closer to the cancer center offering those tests. Work with patient navigation to help patients understand the significant value of the follow-up, but also provide them with a way that there’s equitable access to diagnostics and treatments. 

 Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Thank you, thank you so much, Dr. Grivas and you’ve touched on something that I’m going to ask Dr. Nyame to elaborate on which is these fancy tests and these new technologies and things, and what we know is that a lot of times the patient themselves, if they are not aware of these particular tests, then because of all the disparities that we’ve talked about, they may not even be offered to them. And so a question for you, Dr. Nyame, how can we empower patients so that they don’t feel limited in their care, and how do we make them aware of these treatment options and diagnostic options that Dr. Grivas just spoke of? 

Dr. Nyame: 

You know that’s very challenging because Dr. Grivas, and I see this in our clinical practice, we have patients who are very savvy, that’ll come in and say that I’ve heard that there’s a PSM in San Francisco. Do you have it in Seattle? If you don’t have it in Seattle, I’m gonna go to San Francisco. And for every patient I had like that, who might be, Hey, have you read this latest article, I can have someone who has no idea of what’s going on with their diagnosis, and so how we create opportunities to bring those patients and know very little up to somewhere close, maybe not quite to the demanding the PSMA or a fancy scan level, but sophisticated enough to feel empowered in their health decision-making as something where I think we need to do research because we know that certain tools, navigation, advocacy groups can help in that arena, but I think that we need to understand what the tools are that patients want. What’s interesting is when you query patients, which we’ve done in a study and you say, What are the most pressing issues for you in your prostate cancer diagnosis, whether it’s in the localized setting or in the advanced or metastatic setting, the one thing that has resonated over and over again, irrespective of race is I need help making decisions, I need tools that will make it, me more efficient in how I make my decisions. And so I think without punting the answer too much, we need to do better, and I think part of that starts with listening. I do think that providers can be trained to provide that information in a more efficient manner. We do not… We as clinicians, are built into a system where the number of patients we see really correlates with how we get paid, and there’s not a doctor that doesn’t go to work excited to educate and build relationships with patients, that’s not the case, but there is a time crunch and I feel like in situations where there is a bigger gap and knowledge and understanding, we often don’t have enough time and built into our day to have the discussion, so for me, for a lot of my patients who I feel like have a lower understanding of what’s going on with regards to their prostate cancer diagnosis, it’s really important for me to build into our visit the understanding that whatever we don’t cover can be addressed at a later time and that we don’t have to make a decision with that at particular visit. So when I think about this, it’s sort of like your favorite barbershop or your favorite grocery store, your favorite sandwich place, the relationships matter. 

And I think when we talk about empowering patients to be advocates for themselves in their clinical visits, I think there needs to be an understanding from patients that if it doesn’t feel right, that they have options and to take their time in the decision. Prostate cancer, unlike other diseases, that Dr. Grivas and I treat doesn’t have to have the dial turn to 10 or 11 right away, and we need to make a decision because time is extremely sensitive, even in our most aggressive localized settings, which is what I treat, we have the opportunity to take weeks, if not months, to come to a decision. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Thank you, thank you so much, I appreciate that. And certainly as a physician who’s also a health advocate, I strongly agree with what you said about if the relationship is not working, that there are options, and I know that that may not always be the case depending on where patients live, but I regularly encourage my clients to sometimes you have to look somewhere else, sometimes you have to get a second opinion or maybe even fire your doctor if the relationship is not mutually beneficial, so I appreciate you sharing that. Dr. Grivas, do you have anything to add in terms of how patients can take a proactive approach to their healthcare and how they can build this confidence we’ve been talking about and express their concerns to their medical team? 

Dr. Grivas: 

I think Dr. Nyame covered it so well. I think it’s critically important for all of us to recognize that the finding out the why is probably the key to answer those questions, why there is this distrust, why someone is not paying attention so her own health because they have to try to make ends meet and keep family fed during the day time, and they don’t have time to think about their own health as Dr. Nyame mentioned before, at the same time, empowering the patient that they are the center of this relationship. 

Why doesn’t Dr. Nyame go to the clinic in the morning is because of patients, so our training is patient-centered and our practice is patient-centered and our research is patient-centered, so the patient should feel that right from the door, that this is a service to them. And we’re doing what we’re doing to help their life being longer, longer survival, as we call it, or better, better quality of life, and listening to the patient’s needs is important because of the time crunch that Dr. Nyame mentioned before, I think many of us, probably all of us are within situations where we don’t have enough time to listen advocate, what the person have to say, that’s why I think it’s important to have opportunities for separate visits and utilize better other mechanisms, exact mechanisms, patient navigation I think it’s a critical part of our care, social workers, case managers, financial counselors, nutritionist, genetic counselors, looking at genetics in for the disposition to cancer which is much more common than we think occurrences sometimes we be higher in some certain populations. Having this service available to patients, can help a lot because they will give them knowledge, and knowledge is power by itself, so give them the center, we’re here for them. Why they’re here, it’s because we want to help them and giving them also resources, they need to get now let’s information, when they feel they have more knowledge and they feel that they have control, they can communicate back and give feedback of how we can do better and also, what are the priorities of their needs, so we can address those, what matters to the patient, and this can apply to base and care, and also is what questions we’re asking? Research should be defined by patient priority, so all of those factors should be a dialogue with a patient, I think advocacy groups can be a great liaison to help us disseminate this concept and help again, empowering the patients. I struggle believe that explaining the why and giving knowledge, the data points in a simple and lay manner, can patients think being more in control. 

 
Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Absolutely, thank you, both of you. I love the patient-centered focus, that is something that admittedly, we’ve gotten away from that to some degree in medicine because of the time crunches that both of you have mentioned, and I love that you said knowledge is power. So as we close, I’d love for each of you to share maybe a couple of key questions that patients, our care partners facing prostate cancer should ask of their treatment team to ensure that they’re receiving appropriate care. 

So we’ll start with you, Nyame. Any key questions that patients should be asking their care team when they seek treatment or diagnosis of prostate cancer. 

Absolutely, I think that there’s a long list. Actually, I’ll tell you, my new prostate cancer diagnosis visits are usually my longest because there’s a lot to consider. I do think depending on what you’re having done and what you’re being considered for, so let’s say in the localized setting, prostate cancer is confined to the prostate, and you’re thinking about treatment like a surgery or radiation therapy, you really want to know what that center and what that provider’s experience is because we have a lot of supporting evidence that the more people doing this… No one’s going to be surprised by what I’m about to say, but the more that someone does is the better they’re gonna be at it. Okay, and so making sure your team has a good experience with what you’re seeking to have done is important, and I think it’s well within your rights as a patient to understand that, so I think advocate for that. Secondly, I think basic questions, just to understand the relationship, I think… I like it when patients wanna know a little bit about me because I’m gonna be… They’re gonna be in my hands, and so again, the importance of that relationship building and your visit is crucial. 

Lastly, I think when you come to the visit, have a list of questions based off of what you’ve researched and write them down, I find my most sophisticated patients or crossing off questions as I’m talking, ’cause they came prepared and so that preparation… The act of doing a little bit of reading, there are a lot of resources, the Prostate Cancer Foundation, for instance, has a very nice patient guide that’s written by patients and language that’s really digestible and edited by experts, and so going through that and coming with your list of questions, I think is a really important thing for your visit, and those are just a few things I can think of that can lead to a meaningful clinic visit and exchange. 

 
Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Excellent, I’m a huge fan of questions and being prepared for visits, what about you, Dr. Grivas are there one or two key questions that you feel patients or their care partners should ask? 

Dr. Grivas: 

Great answers by Dr. Nyame, I totally agree. I think started with the basics, What this diagnosis means for me, what is the current extent of the cancer, we call the states, and what is the outlook, what is the overall prognosis or at least estimate of the outcome, that’s a reasonable question to ask and again some places more detail, some others may not, and it’s important for us also to ask the base and what they want to know, how much they want to know, I would take in things of them, they want to know the entirety of the information because it makes… Help them make decisions. The other, I think it’s important point, what are the treatment options and what is the intent of the treatment, what are we trying to achieve by giving treatment, are we trying to cure, eradicate or eliminate the culture, are we to prolong life, are we trying to improve quality of life or are we just trying control the cancer, so what are the goals of the treatment and what are the metrics of success, so what will be a successful outcome of that treatment? How do we measure that? And I think it’s also important. 

Two more points, I would if I may. I think, again, going back to the importance of genetic counseling even more in prostate cancer, I think we recognize the importance in the aspect of patient treatment because some treatment options may depend on finding mutations. But also the importance of the family, how much can prevent cancers in the brother family, close and extended family, if we find the mutation, can we set this mutation for other family members and do screening to prevent cancer prevention is ideal if we can do that and I think that’s a good discussion, so the patient can come to the visit if possible, by doing some homework about the family history. It’s hard for of us now, what’s happening in that chasm, right? But we do have the time to be informed of the importance of the question, this can help and expedite in our resources like to genetic counseling. And the last points, research, I want to again make the point, we should all do a better job to offer innovative clinical trials to patients across races, and it should be a very important point again equitable healthcare. And the patient should ask are clinical trials an option for me and do I have a clinical trial option? And I think it’s a great question, and hopefully this can help the patient get to integrative treatment, but also help the field. 

The research would get important answers, and the important answers can be for all the community and the specific populations, if we do trials, clinical trials with only the white patients, do we have the answer for the black patients, or we have the answer for both and other races and ethnicities as well. 

Dr. Nyame: 

And I do wanna take this opportunity to add one more thing because Dr. Grivas was talked about what does your treatment mean for you, and in this discussion about prostate cancer, we cannot talk about what questions do you bring without mentioning the impact, quality of life of our treatments, and I think that sometimes this is the elephant in the room that leads to the decision to not pursue treatment, and so I want to take this opportunity as the urologist to say, This is the time to talk about what treatment is gonna do for sexual function. This is the time to talk about what treatment means for your urinary symptoms and quality of life, a good and healthy discussion around these things need to happen during your visit, because I think sometimes what patients expect to have happen with treatment and reality don’t match. And you have an expert in front of you that can really give you some input as to what to expect, and in a similar vein, when you meet with survivors, these are some of the things that I know patients tell me they’re worried about, and these are people who are living it, that can give you really valuable information on that piece of quality of life, and I hope that those conversations can help us close that treatment disparity that we see between black men and white men with prostate cancer. 

 Dr. Nicole Rochester: 

Such wonderful points. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much, Dr. Nyame and thank you Dr. Grivas for just illuminating so many important issues, just to briefly summarize, we’ve talked about the disparities that exist in prostate cancer, diagnosis and treatment based on geographic location, based on finances, insurance that is access and… Yes, even race and ethnicity, and you all have done a wonderful job providing solutions, we’ve talked about the importance of advocating for yourself and your loved ones, the importance of being educated and doing some research, coming to those visits with your questions, making sure that you form a relationship with your treating physicians and sometimes perhaps seeking someone else, if that’s not possible, so just… So many gems, and I just wanna thank both of you for spending this time with us today, and I wanna thank you all for tuning in to this Patient Empowerment Network program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, and thank you for joining us. 

Dr. Grivas: 

Thank you.