Tag Archive for: triple negative breast cancer

Noted Racial, Ethnic, and Socioeconomic Disparities In Breast Cancer Outcomes

Noted Racial, Ethnic, and Socioeconomic Disparities In Breast Cancer Outcomes from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What are breast cancer disparities? Expert Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani explains notable disparities seen in breast cancer risks, treatments, and outcomes – and questions for patients to ask their doctor to help ensure their best care. 

Demetria Smith-Graziani, MD, MPH is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Emory University School of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Smith-Graziani.

[ACT]IVATION TIP

“…have an open and honest discussion with your physicians about the, your particular breast cancer risk and about the specific treatment recommendations that you receive, why you’re receiving those recommendations, and how people who get those treatments usually do.”

Download Guide  |   Descargar Guía en Español

See More from [ACT]IVATED Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What is High-Risk Breast Cancer?
 
How Does Hormone Therapy Impact Breast Cancer Treatment?
 
What Treatments Are Available for HER2-Positive Metastatic Breast Cancer?

What Treatments Are Available for HER2-Positive Metastatic Breast Cancer?


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Dr. Smith, what are the noted racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic disparities seen in breast cancer risk, treatment, and outcomes?

Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani:

So a lot of work has been done over the years to really understand more about disparities in breast cancer. When it comes to breast cancer risk, we know that while white women are more likely in United States to be diagnosed with breast cancer, Black women are more likely to die from breast cancer. Black women also have a higher risk of triple-negative breast cancer, which is known to be a more aggressive form of breast cancer, and Black women are diagnosed on average at a younger age compared to white women.

When it comes to disparities in treatment and outcomes, we can see that a lot of what affects the type of treatment that you receive and how you end up doing after that treatment are related to not only your race or ethnicity, but also your income, your insurance status, what zip code you live in, and other social factors and structural factors in our country, it’s really important that both patients and providers are aware of the disparities and the causes, because it’s up to all of us, but especially those in the healthcare system, to think about the ways that we can address them.

So, my activation tip for patients is to be aware of the fact that these disparities exist and to have an open and honest discussion with your physicians about the, your particular breast cancer risk and about the specific treatment recommendations that you receive, why you’re receiving those recommendations, and how people who get those treatments usually do. 


Share Your Feedback:

Create your own user feedback survey

The Role of Immunotherapy for Metastatic Breast Cancer or Relapse

The Role of Immunotherapy for Metastatic Breast Cancer or Relapse from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Breast cancer treatment may involve immunotherapy or targeted therapy, but what do patients need to know? Expert Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani discusses the roles of immunotherapy and targeted therapy and shares questions for patients to ask their doctor about immunotherapy.

Demetria Smith-Graziani, MD, MPH is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Emory University School of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Smith-Graziani.

[ACT]IVATION TIP

“…ask your oncologist about the standard of care or clinical trial options for the use of immunotherapy for your cancer, and if it would be beneficial to do any testing on your cancer to assess the benefit of immunotherapy.”

Download Guide  |   Descargar Guía en Español

See More from [ACT]IVATED Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

How Is Breast Cancer Explained to Newly Diagnosed Patients?
 
Emerging Treatments In Breast Cancer: Are Antibody Drug Conjugates Here to Stay?
 
Pain Outcomes Among Black Women with Early Stage Breast Cancer After Mastectomy

Pain Outcomes Among Black Women with Early Stage Breast Cancer After Mastectomy


Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Dr. Smith, what is the role of immunotherapy or targeted therapy in breast cancer, specifically those whose cancer has relapsed or is in advanced stages?

Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani:

Currently, we are using immunotherapy mostly for triple-negative breast cancer, for early stage breast cancer, that is not stage IV breast cancer,  we use immunotherapy sometimes in combination with chemotherapy for higher risk, triple-negative breast cancers to help reduce the risk of it coming back in the future.

We also use immunotherapy for metastatic or stage IV triple-negative breast cancer, specifically those cancers that are positive for a protein called PD-L1, we are also doing a number of clinical trials across the country and the world to figure out other situations in which we can use immunotherapy, whether without chemotherapy to treat other types of breast cancer, and my activation tip for patients is ask your oncologist about the standard of care or clinical trial options for the use of immunotherapy for your cancer, and if it would be beneficial to do any testing on your cancer to assess the benefit of immunotherapy.


Share Your Feedback:

Create your own user feedback survey

What Is High-Risk Breast Cancer?



What is High-Risk Breast Cancer? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What exactly is high-risk breast cancer, and who is most at-risk for this type? Expert Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani explains different types of high-risk breast cancer proactive questions for patients to ask their doctor for optimal care.

Demetria Smith-Graziani, MD, MPH is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Emory University School of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Smith-Graziani.

[ACT]IVATION TIP

“…ask, ‘What type of breast cancer do I have, what subtype of breast cancer do I have, and what stage of breast cancer do I have, and what is the risk of it coming back in the future?’”

Download Guide  |   Descargar Guía en Español

See More from [ACT]IVATED Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

How Is Breast Cancer Explained to Newly Diagnosed Patients?
 
What is Node-Positive and Node-Negative Breast Cancer?
 
Emerging Treatments In Breast Cancer: Are Antibody Drug Conjugates Here to Stay?
 

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Dr. Smith, what exactly is high-risk breast cancer? And what populations are most at risk for high-risk breast cancer?

Dr. Demetria Smith-Graziani:

So certain breast cancers are at a higher risk of coming back in the future after they’ve been treated,  the things that put you at a higher risk of having your breast cancer come back, is when your breast cancer is at a higher stage, meaning that it’s a larger cancer or one that has spread to the lymph nodes, under the arm or in the chest.

Also, there are certain subtypes of breast cancer that are known to be more aggressive, such as triple-negative breast cancer and HER2-positive breast cancer, and those also have a higher risk of coming back in the future, so my activation tip for patients is to ask, “What type of breast cancer do I have, what subtype of breast cancer do I have, and what stage of breast cancer do I have, and what is the risk of it coming back in the future?”


Share Your Feedback

Create your own user feedback survey

What Are the Types of Breast Cancer?

What Are the Types of Breast Cancer? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Breast cancer expert Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy shares an overview of breast cancer types and explains the standard biomarker testing that occurs following a diagnosis.

Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy is the Section Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and the Director of the Medical Oncology Fellowship Program in Breast Cancer at The Ohio State College of Medicine. Learn more about this expert here.

See More from Thrive Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

Thriving With Breast Cancer Tools for Navigating Care and Treatment

What Role Do Breast Cancer Patients Play in Care and Treatment Decisions?

Why Should Breast Cancer Patients Feel Empowered to Speak Up About Their Care?


Transcript:

Katherine:

Let’s start with an essential piece that helps people thrive, understanding their breast cancer. First, what are the types of breast cancer?

Dr. Ramaswamy:          

Yeah, and I think that’s extremely critical.   Empowering you, the patient, with the knowledge of the type of breast cancers and what’s the   outcomes and why they’re getting some treatments,  and what to look for is probably one of the most important things to do. And part of it lies primarily with the providers to ensure that education   empowerment. But part of it also lies on the part of the patient to make sure they ask the right questions and learn about their breast cancer.

So, the type of breast cancers you have that are hormone receptor -sensitive breast cancer, that means your tumor would be positive for estrogen and or progesterone receptors. And it depends on estrogen and or progesterone for its growth and well-being. And then there is a HER2-positive breast cancer, which means the HER2 protein is high in your tumors and that drives the cancer cells.

And so, it’s important to understand that subtype and why we have certain treatments to improve the outcomes. And then the last one is when all those three are not there, ER, PR, and HER2. So, hence the word triple-negative breast cancers. These are the large subtypes of breast cancers that are based on these biomarkers, which are proteins that drive the growth of breast, the cancer cells. There is of course different types of breast cancer based on histology that is invasive ductal cancer, that’s very most common. The less, slightly less common is the  invasive lobular cancer, about 10 to 15 percent.

But then there are also very less than 3 percent called   metaplastic breast cancers and other types of  breast   cancers that could also be histological different subtypes.

And it’s important for you to know what type of subtype of histological or how does it look under the microscope is important for you to know as well. So, these I would say are the most important understanding of our breast cancer subtypes, at least  this much to definitely educate the patient and patient having the understanding of their cancer.

Katherine:                     

What biomarker testing is standard following a breast cancer diagnosis?

Dr. Ramaswamy:          

So, the three biomarkers that we definitely test for at this point are the estrogen receptor for strong receptors and the HER2. And, of course, there’s also  the grade that your pathologist would grade your tumor. And grade is different from stage. And that is looking at how quickly your cells are growing. And these are the basic understanding that you should have about your cancer at this point.

Recent Advances in Treating Breast Cancer

Recent Advances in Treating Breast Cancer from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What are the latest breast cancer treatment and research advances? Expert Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy shares treatment updates for specific breast cancer types and discusses testing for circulating tumor DNA.

Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy is the Section Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and the Director of the Medical Oncology Fellowship Program in Breast Cancer at The Ohio State College of Medicine. Learn more about this expert here.

See More from Thrive Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

Thriving With Breast Cancer Tools for Navigating Care and Treatment

Why Should Breast Cancer Patients Feel Empowered to Speak Up About Their Care?

What Role Do Breast Cancer Patients Play in Care and Treatment Decisions?


Transcript:

Katherine:

Are there emerging therapies that are showing promise?

Dr. Ramaswamy:  

Oh, my God. There’s just tremendous emerging therapies that are showing extraordinary progress. And I talk about this to my patients all the time. I mean, I tell them like two years ago say in a patient with – patient with metastatic disease, I’ll say, last year this drug wasn’t approved.

This drug is now approved for you to be given, and it shows extraordinary effect. So, every year we have new drugs getting approved, and we are also trying to get it used to be a little bit of a richness on the HER2-positive disease. And now we are seeing definitely a lot of richness on hormone receptor-positive disease. And I think we’re starting to see some new particular immunotherapy and other targeted therapies showing some response in triple-negative breast cancer.

Now, I know that’s a place that we still need to see more newer therapies, but overall, in the stage IV setting, we have really many options to keep them in good quality of life and longer. But people will ask, “Really, why do I even need to get to stage IV?” Really look at me and improve the curative setting. And that again, we are able to pick the higher risk patients, what me – what it means to have higher risk disease, how do we target them, newer drugs to target them. So, I think in so many ways we are doing better. And we are also getting to a place can we detect higher-risk patients, not just  by their initial diagnosis and response, but follow them sequentially by circulating tumor cells?

And we are getting to that place where we can actually do circulating tumor DNA, so just isolate the DNA, and we know what will belong to the tumor. And then circulating tumor cells seemingly even after your curative therapy. And so that is something that’s getting approved. And so we are not only seeing treatment, but we are also trying to see better detection of that reference. So, I think we are in so many ways, improving. And I am – I’ve been in this for 20 years, some of the things that thought was a dream is coming true. So, truly just keep living well and keep thriving. There are options.

Katherine:                     

Yeah. That’s, it’s positive.

Dr. Ramaswamy:          

Yes.

Breast Cancer Treatment Side Effects | What Are They and How Are They Managed?

Breast Cancer Treatment Side Effects | What Are They and How Are They
Managed?
from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What should breast cancer patients know about treatment side effects? Expert Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy shares common treatment side effects and explains her perspective on how to manage specific side effects for improved quality of life.

Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy is the Section Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and the Director of the Medical Oncology Fellowship Program in Breast Cancer at The Ohio State College of Medicine. Learn more about this expert here.

See More from Thrive Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Are the Treatment Options for Early Stage Breast Cancer?

How Is Metastatic Breast Cancer Treated?

Why Should Breast Cancer Patients Engage in Care Decisions?


Transcript:

Katherine:

Dr. Ramaswamy, along with treatment can also come side effects. What are some common side effects of breast cancer treatment?

Dr. Ramaswamy:          

Yeah, great question. Again, an important question for you all to consider. So, let’s divide our treatment  to targeted therapy and chemotherapy. The targeted therapy could be the estrogen receptors and then the  HER2 because the HER2, again, remember that biomarker. And then the chemotherapy that any patient with breast cancer could get, including, of course, the triple-negative. And then we’ll touch base  a little bit later on with the immunotherapy. So, when we look at the targeted therapy with estrogen receptor, anti-estrogen receptors, of course, it’s like putting you into menopause again. It’s like so you could have hot flashes, you could have some emotional liability and you could have vaginal dryness and sexual libido could be lower.

And also you could have joint aches and pains and your bone density could go down and cause osteopenia and osteoporosis and fractures. So, those  are some of the – and we can address all of those that we’ll come to later. With the HER2-targeted therapies, one of the main things will be the heart. These can affect the heart because there are some receptors that are present there that these HER2 therapies can affect the myocardial function. So, they don’t cause increase in heart attacks, but just the pumping action of your heart could go down. We keep checking your heart function to help with that. And then with the chemotherapies, other than your blood counts going down, these are acute events. Those blood counts could go down, which could put you at higher risk for infections. Again, some of the heart chemotherapies can affect the heart. So, we’ll keep an eye on that.

And, of course, fatigue that comes with all of these treatments that can happen. But some of those chronic things that can happen is also neuropathy. So, tingling, numbness in your hands and feet, even sometimes pain in your hands and feet. And then this can stay on for a little bit longer and can cause some trouble buttoning your shirt or playing the piano or putting your earrings. So, it can affect your  daily quality of life and cause pain. The other important thing, which we do have now an option is  also hair loss. I know that is something hard for age.  It’s so hard for women to lose hair and the consequence of being identified differently and not having that – when you look at the mirror, it’s a constant reminder.

So, we do have something called a scalp cooling that you could take an option and discuss with your doctors whether that how helpful that’ll be for your  type of chemotherapy and whether you could use it and you can – but 60 percent of the time not lose all your hair and need a wig. So, that is something that you can address. So, broadly, these are the issues that can happen. Again, this is very broad. Depending on your treatment, you still need to talk to your doctors.

Katherine:

How can some of these side effects be managed?

Dr. Ramaswamy:      

So, the key thing is to be first thing that I want to advise all our patients is that be vocal about your side effects. Okay? Sometimes we all think, okay, they did tell me I’m supposed to have all the side effects. I just need to keep quiet about it. That’s not what is important. And I think I did miss mentioning the GI tract changes like nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Again you think, oh, this is our part of all chemotherapy, I just need to keep quiet. No, that’s not the case because we actually give you anti-nausea medications before the   chemotherapy. So, if it’s not effective, you need to have to tell your doctors, “Okay, this time I had a couple of sensations of nausea, but no vomiting.”

Or “No, I was vomiting a lot.” Whatever it is. Even if you had just nausea, it’s important to tell your doctors. If it’s diarrhea, you need to tell them. We do give you some medications, but if it’s not working, you need to tell them. And again, we always underplay the issues with sexual side effects because you don’t want to talk about that. I mean, it’s not important. No, it is important.

It’s important for your intimacy, it’s important for your life, and it’s important for you to speak because there are supportive care therapies that we can provide. Neuropathy, again, I think your doctors will always ask you, but being vocal about it, being honest about it, and talking about it is important. So, again, fatigue.

They are going talk to you about exercise, because exercise does overcome that fatigue. But if you’re not able to do it again, it’s honest to say, “No, but I didn’t do what you said last time.” So don’t feel bad about it. And there could be other ways we can improve your fatigue too. So, again, sharing those side effects is important and we can. We can address all of these side effects. Now, I’m not saying the minute we address these side effects it’s all going to go away completely, but they can get better. And it’s important for you to talk about it and  get those supportive care measures.

What Is Breast Cancer Genomic Testing?

What Is Breast Cancer Genomic Testing? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What do results of breast cancer genomic testing reveal? Expert Dr. Jame Abraham explains this type of testing and common breast cancer genetic mutations and discusses how tests are typically administered.

Dr. Jame Abraham is the chairman of the Department of Hematology & Medical Oncology at Cleveland Clinic and professor of medicine at Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Abraham.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Do You Need to Know About Metastatic Breast Cancer Genetic Testing?

What Do You Need to Know About Breast Cancer Genetic Testing?

How Can Breast Cancer Genetic Testing Empower Women?

How Can Breast Cancer Genetic Testing Empower Women?

What is the Role of Genetic Testing in Breast Cancer

What is the Role of Genetic Testing in Breast Cancer


Transcript:

Katherine:

Dr. Abraham, for breast cancer patients who don’t understand the term, what is genomic testing?   

Dr. Abraham:

So, genomic testing, there are two types of genomic testing, what we call as, germline testing. And then, there’s another one, what we call as, somatic testing. So, germline testing means, the question is, if I carry a gene which can make me high risk for breast cancer. So, one of the most common questions I get from our patients when I see them is, “Oh, do I carry a gene? Why did I get this breast cancer?” And then, the other question is, “What’s the risk for my kids, my daughter?” 

So, I’ve seen, about 5 to 10 percent of breast cancers are due to an abnormal gene. To find that, we do, what we call as, the germline testing. That’s the first – when we say genomic testing, that’s the most commonly understood nomenclature. 

So, do I carry this gene? It’s a blood test, or we can take a mouth swab. That will give us an answer, if that person carries a gene. 

Usually, we test several genes, and I’m sure, most of the people have BRCA1, BRCA2, PALB2, CDH1. Those are some of the genes we test, and BRCA1 and BRCA2 are the most common, and 80 percent of heredity, or those who are transmitted to the next generation, is attributed to BRCA1 and BRCA2.  

Katherine:

How is this testing administered?  

Dr. Abraham:

So, it’s a blood test. 

Most of the time, we can draw – usually, the way we do is, I like to say, if I’m seeing a patient who has – and this is a patient who’s 45 years old and has a strong family history, or in patients under the age of 50, with a triple-negative breast cancer, or any person under the age of 50, can be considered for genetic counseling. And then, based upon the conversation with a genetic counselor, we will recommend the genetic testing. Usually, it’s a blood draw. 

What Are the Treatment Options for Early Stage Breast Cancer?

What Are the Treatment Options for Early Stage Breast Cancer? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Breast cancer expert Dr. Adrienne Waks reviews available treatment approaches for patients with early stage breast cancer and explains the role of sub types when choosing a treatment plan.

Dr. Adrienne Waks is the Associate Director of Clinical Research at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. To learn more about Dr. Waks click, here.

See More from Thrive Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Role Do Breast Cancer Patients Play in Care and Treatment Decisions?

Key Questions Patients Should Ask Before Participating in a Breast Cancer Clinical Trial

How Is Metastatic Breast Cancer Treated?


Transcript:

Katherine:

Well, let’s get into the specific treatment options that are available for breast cancer patients. Could you tell us about those?  

Dr. Waks:

So, fortunately, the answer to that question is enormous, because we have so many effective treatment options in breast cancer and generally our patients do very well in the long term when they are diagnosed with early stage breast cancer, so stage I or II or III breast cancer.  

That might involve the breast, it might involve the lymph nodes under the arm, but it hasn’t traveled anywhere else in the body. So I’ll set aside metastatic breast cancer and just talk about stage I, II, and III. 

So, as you may know, we think about as medical oncologists we completely separate treatment considerations for three different subtypes of breast cancer. Those are hormone receptor-positive, HER2-positive and then triple-negative. So, again, highlighting just important developments and not really the overall treatment planning for each of those subtypes, in ER-positive disease or estrogen receptor-positive disease hormonally-driven, estrogen-driven breast cancer – those are all sort of terms for the same thing, I think there have been a couple of important developments over the last few years.  

Probably the most important recent one is the new understanding and demonstration that the CDK4/6 inhibitor abemaciclib, the brand name of that drug is Verzenio. 

That drug when we administer it for two years after a patient has had their surgery and in conjunction with alongside the antiestrogen medicines; the antiestrogen medicines are usually done for a minimum of five years, when we add on to that the CDK4/6 inhibitor abemaciclib, we see that for women with higher risk disease, so maybe some lymph node involvement or a large tumor in the breast or both that the addition of the Verzenio, the abemaciclib seems to decrease their risk of recurrence of breast cancer a couple of years out. So, that’s been an important exciting development. 

Again, not for all women within early stage estrogen-driven breast cancer, but for a little bit more advanced early stage disease like lymph node involvement. You know, we’re obviously always looking for ways to reduce that risk of recurrence for women who have a little bit more risk at diagnosis and the addition of abemaciclib was an exciting and welcome addition to our toolkit there. 

In HER2-positive disease, which is about 20 percent of breast cancers overall, I think what the recent years have brought us is increasing understanding that in many cases we give women too much chemotherapy and that we need to be – so, here it’s less about adding on. Like the Verzenio example I was just talking about and more about individualizing and figuring out in whom and how we can pull back from sort of the kitchen sink approach that we take often to treating a HER2-positive early stage breast cancer and be more thoughtful and more personalized in the amount of treatment that we give women with HER2-positive breast cancer. 

The reason for that is that we’re basically 20 years into understanding that for HER2-positive breast cancers we can treat those cancers very effectively with anti-HER2 antibody drugs like trastuzumab or Herceptin. We didn’t even know that until 20 years ago. And so, Herceptin, trastuzumab and similar drugs have really revolutionized how effectively we can treat women with HER2-positive breast cancers. And so, at this point, it’s becoming more and more clear that we can really lean more on our arsenal of anti-HER2 targeted therapies like Trastuzumab. Pertuzumab (Perjeta) is another one and trastuzumab MTNC and TDM1 is another one. 

So, we have all these excellent smart targeted treatments for women with HER2-positive disease, but yet the standard of care is still to give all those good rational targeted treatments with a whole bunch of chemotherapy that comes with a lot of side effects. 

I think more and more we’re figuring out that we can lean more on our anti-HER2 treatments and require less of the really side effect heavy chemotherapy, but how do we do that thoughtfully? We obviously don’t want to undertreat anybody, so how do we do that thoughtfully? How do we pick out the women who only need the anti-HER2 treatment and can get away with less chemotherapy. I think that’s really what’s exciting in HER2-positive early stage breast cancer right is how do we individualize and take advantage of targeted agents that we have? 

And then finally, in the third subtype of breast cancer which is triple-negative breast cancer which accounts for about 10 percent of breast cancers, the most exciting development there clearly in the last year or so is the realization and the demonstration in randomized clinical trial that we can improve outcomes for those women if we give them not just chemotherapy but also chemotherapy combined with immunotherapy and specifically the immunotherapy agent called pembrolizumab or Keytruda. 

So, up until a year or two ago, the standard for a stage I or II or III triple-negative breast cancer was to get a multiagent chemo regimen and chemo was really the only type of option we had to treat those triple-negative breast cancer patients and now we know from a major important clinical trial called Keynote 522, that if we take a standard chemo backbone and add Pembrolizumab immunotherapy onto it, that we can help those women do better in the long term. So, that’s really a pretty new in the last one or two years standard of care for triple-negative breast cancer. 

And I guess the last thing I’ll say is not about one of those three subtypes of breast cancer but specifically for women with a BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutation associated with their breast cancer, which is a minority. It’s about 5 percent of breast cancer patients. Obviously, the proportion changes depending on your subtype of breast cancer and your age when you’re diagnosed, but for women who have a breast cancer associated with BRCA1 or 2 mutation and have a higher risk or early stage breast cancer. 

So, again, they have a number of lymph nodes involved or a big tumor in the breast or something like that, we now know that we can add on one year of the PARP inhibitor medication called olaparib or Lynparza to the postoperative treatment of those breast cancer patients in addition to whatever other treatment they got; the antiestrogen pills, the chemotherapy, or a combination of those two, and with the addition of olaparib or Lynparza for a year that we can again see better long-term outcomes for those patients and help them avoid recurrences. 

So, that’s not a majority of breast cancer patients but is a targeted treatment that we’re very excited about that definitely makes an important contribution to reducing risk for women with a BRCA1- or BRCA2-associated cancer or men for that matter. I’m saying women, but it could absolutely apply to men. 

How Is Metastatic Breast Cancer Treated?

How Is Metastatic Breast Cancer Treated? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo

Breast cancer expert Dr. Adrienne Waks discusses treatment approaches for metastatic breast cancer and explains how research is evolving.

Dr. Adrienne Waks is the Associate Director of Clinical Research at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. To learn more about Dr. Waks click, here.

See More from Thrive Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Role Do Breast Cancer Patients Play in Care and Treatment Decisions?

Key Questions Patients Should Ask Before Participating in a Breast Cancer Clinical Trial

What Are the Treatment Options for Early Stage Breast Cancer?


Transcript:

Katherine:

What about people who have metastatic disease? What treatment advances are available for them?  

Dr. Waks:

Yeah. You know, I think that’s an incredibly important question and a totally different set of discussions than we have with women with early stage breast cancer and unfortunately and unacceptably at this point for a woman diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer still typically that can become a life-threatening diagnosis. 

So, it’s exceptionally important that we rapidly improve the treatment options that we have for women with metastatic breast cancer. Maybe everybody says this every year, but I think that this year, 2022, has been a particularly exciting year in terms of advances that we’re making in the treatment of metastatic breast cancer, really of all subtypes. I would say the most exciting class of drugs or type of drugs that’s coming out in breast cancer and in all malignancies honestly, is called antibody drug conjugates, which is to say an antibody. So, a molecule that’s targeted to some particular approaching on a cancer cell surface and then is attached to or conjugated to a chemotherapy molecule.  

So, the antibody is like a smart delivery system directly to the cancer cell for what’s call a payload, basically like a sort of action molecule or the killer molecule, which is the chemotherapy. 

Those kinds of antibody drug conjugants have made a huge impact in recent years in improving outcomes for women really with all subtypes of breast cancer, so that drug class I think is a very exciting one to watch in general. In terms of specific recent developments in metastatic breast cancer, so probably the biggest blockbuster development over the past year and really over just the past three months is the understanding that we can break out a subtype of metastatic breast cancer that we really didn’t even talk about before which is called HER2-low breast cancer. So, before if you asked me in May of 2022, there really were only two types of HER2 readouts for a breast cancer tumor. 

There was a HER2-negative breast cancer tumor and there was a HER2-positive breast cancer tumor and as I already told you, the HER2-positive accounts for about 20 percent of breast cancers overall. The other 80 percent are HER2-negative. And so, historically, again you asked me three months ago I would have said if you’re HER2-positive and that 20 percent will give you these different HER2-directed treatments and if you’re not, we can’t use those. And what’s changed is that we’ve developed new antibody drug conjugants. So, drugs that are targeted against in this case the protein HER2 that seem to be so effective and work so well, that you don’t truly have to be HER2-positive.  

You can be HER2-low and still benefit from these treatments, which is to say your cancer has a little bit of HER2 protein on the surface of the breast cancer cells but not a lot. So, not enough to make it positive but enough to make it low in its designation. 

That’s actually a large proportion of breast cancer patients. It’s over 50 percent of breast cancer patients, so it’s significantly more than HER2-positive, so a large proportion of breast cancer patients actually fit into this new category called HER2-low and we now know from data that were presented in June of 2022 and then published in the New England Journal of Medicine, which is our biggest most high profile academic medical journal, we know that for patients who fall into that HER2-low category, again that’s more than 50 percent of breast cancer patients, that they can, if they have a metastatic breast cancer, benefit from this new antibody drug conjugate called trastuzumab deruxtecan (Enhertu).  

When it was compared to the existing chemo options we have for those patients which do have some efficacy but nonetheless, when trastuzumab deruxtecan was compared to the existing chemo options, it clearly looked better for patients with HER2-low breast cancer. So, that was not just an exciting advance in terms of new treatment options which we always love to be able to offer to patients but also in terms of breaking out this entirely new designation and subcategory that captures more than half of our metastatic breast cancer patients and helping us to offer them something new and hopefully will be a pathway for other drugs to be developed in this space and for this new subcategory. 

So, that was very exciting. I’ve been talking about it with patients all the time in the past just three months since those data came out.  

You know, a second antibody drug conjugate that has also been very exciting in recent months and recent years is called sacituzumab govitecan which Trodelvy is the brand name of that one. That’s an antibody drug conjugate that’s targeted against a different protein on the cell surface that’s targeted against the protein Trop-2, so that’s where the Trodelvy comes from. It’s targeting Trop-2. That’s an antibody drug conjugate that we’ve known for probably three or more years now can be very effective in triple-negative metastatic breast cancer. So, we’ve had that option for a number of years in metastatic triple-negative breast cancer. 

But again, just in the past few months have gotten good and exciting data that this Trodelvy or sacituzumab drug also works in estrogen-driven breast cancers.  

And so, it’s giving another option to patients with not just triple-negative but also estrogen-driven breast cancer. So, that was another very recent development just in the last three months or so. 

Katherine:

That’s really exciting. 

What Do You Need to Know About Metastatic Breast Cancer Genetic Testing?

What Do You Need to Know About Metastatic Breast Cancer Genetic Testing? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Why is it important to ask about metastatic breast cancer genetic testing? Find out how test results could reveal more about YOUR breast cancer and could help determine the most effective treatment approach.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Do Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Need to Know About Genetic Testing

What Do Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Need to Know About Genetic Testing?

How Can You Ensure You’ve Had Essential Metastatic Breast Cancer Testing (1)

How Can You Ensure You’ve Had Essential Metastatic Breast Cancer Testing?

What Questions Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Ask Before Starting a Treatment Plan

What Questions Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Ask Before Starting a Treatment Plan?


Transcript:

Why should you ask your doctor about metastatic breast cancer genetic testing?

The National Comprehensive Cancer Network – also known as the NCCN – recommends that every metastatic breast cancer patient undergo genetic testing. The test results can help predict how your cancer may behave and could indicate that one type of treatment is more effective than another.

This testing identifies specific gene mutations, proteins, chromosomal abnormalities, and/or other molecular changes that are unique to YOU and YOUR breast cancer.

There are two main types of genetic tests used in breast cancer:

  • Germline or hereditary genetic testing, which identifies inherited gene mutations in the body. These mutations are present from birth, can be shared among family members and be passed on to subsequent generations.
  • The second is somatic or tumor genetic testing, which identifies markers that are unique to the cancer itself. It is also commonly referred to as genomic testing, biomarker testing, or molecular profiling. Somatic mutations are NOT inherited or passed down from family member to family member.
  • Depending on your history, your doctor may order one–or both–of these types of tests.

So why do the test results matter?

  • If you have specific gene mutations – such as the BRCA1 or BRCA2 inherited gene mutations – it could indicate that a targeted treatment approach may be the most effective option. For example, there are two oral targeted therapies that are approved specifically for use in metastatic patients with BRCA1-positive or BRCA2-positive breast cancer.
  • Results of these tests may also help you to find a clinical trial that may be appropriate for your particular cancer.
  • Additionally, results from germline genetic testing may suggest that close family members should also be tested to determine their risk.

How can you insist on the best breast cancer care?

  • First, always speak up and ask questions. Remember, you have a voice in YOUR breast cancer care.
  • Ask your doctor if you have had–or will receive–genetic testing, including germline and somatic testing.
  • If you have already undergone genetic testing, bring a copy of your results to your current doctor, so they can understand your results and determine whether additional testing is needed.
  • Have a discussion with your healthcare team about the test results – including which markers were detected and how results may impact your care and treatment plan.
  • Ask whether your family members should meet with a genetic counselor or undergo testing to help gauge their risk of developing breast cancer.
  • And, finally, bring a friend or a loved one to your appointments to help you process and recall information.

To learn more about breast cancer and to access tools for self-advocacy, visit powerfulpatients.org/breastcancer

What Questions Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Ask Before Starting a Treatment Plan?

What Questions Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Ask Before Starting a Treatment Plan? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Before metastatic breast cancer treatment begins, it’s important to speak up and ask questions. Expert Dr. Sarah Sammons shares key questions patients should ask to ensure a personalized approach to their care and treatment.

Dr. Sarah Sammons is an oncologist at Duke Cancer Institute and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Duke University School of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Sammons here.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

Which Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Is Right for You? Guide

An Overview of Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Options

Key Considerations When Making Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Decisions


Transcript:

Katherine:

What key questions do you think patients should ask about their proposed treatment plan, to make sure they’re getting the most personalized approach for their disease?

Dr. Sammons:

That’s a great question. So, first and foremost – when you get an initial diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer, it can be nearly debilitating mentally at first, so it’s a little bit hard to be an advocate for yourself.

But it is so important, eventually, to become an advocate for yourself and the first thing that I would say is it’s very important that you have had a biopsy of a metastatic site. So, if something shows up on a scan that looks abnormal – maybe a liver legion or a lung legion – it’s very important that that area is biopsied and checked again for estrogen, progesterone, and HER2. And the reason for that is – there’s a phenomenon called subtype switching. So, a patient can – maybe her early-stage breast cancer was estrogen receptor-positive. There’s a 15 to 20 percent chance that her metastatic disease could be estrogen-negative, and it’s critical that we know what the estrogen and the HER2 are, so that we can treat them with the initial best treatments.

So, that’s number one. I think it’s very important to have a biopsy of your metastatic site, to repeat that estrogen and HER2.

Next, pretty important to have had at least germline BRCA testing. And the reason for that is: We now have drugs, the PARP inhibitors that I talked about before, that specifically benefit patients that have a BRCA mutation.

And then, the next would be – is there a role for next generation sequencing, which is the somatic gene testing of the patient’s tumor.

I would say practice patterns differ. For HER2-positive breast cancer, it’s probably not important to have that upfront because we have a very – it’s critical that we know that you’re HER2-

positive, so that we can give you those best HER2 targeted therapies in the first few lines. But we’re really not going to use that genomic sequencing information for really the first couple of years in metastatic, HER2-positive breast cancer.

For hormone receptor-positive breast cancer, I do think it’s pretty important to know what your genomic testing is – your next generation sequencing is – upfront. If you have an ESR1 mutation, then we know that you’re resistant to certain types of endocrine therapy, and we would not give you them. If you have a PI3-Kinase, then we would give you that if you qualified, otherwise we would give you that drug that targeted the PI3-Kinase mutation probably in the second line.

So, next generation sequencing is pretty important, either in first or second line, in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer.

Triple-negative breast cancer – the most important thing upfront is to know what your PDL1 status is. And it’s very important that if you’re PDL1-positive, you get immunotherapy with your first treatment because we know that immunotherapy, if you get it in later lines of treatment, does not work as well as if you get it in the first line.

So, it’s always really tough for patients to wait a couple weeks to get started on treatment, but as long as your disease is not growing so rapidly that your physician is concerned, which is on the rare end, it’s good to get all your ducks in a row, get all of the information that you need, so that you can be started on the best treatment.

Katherine:

Dr. Sammons, why should patients feel like they should speak up and that they have a voice?

Dr. Sammons:

Patients should feel like they should speak up and have a voice because this is their life. This is your life. This is your treatment. This is – nobody is going to advocate for you as well as yourself. If you’re lucky, you’ll find a physician that is an advocate, and many of us are, but nobody will advocate for you as well as you will advocate for yourself. So, that’s reason number one.

And reason number two would be: we’re all humans. Your doctors are humans. Some physicians, especially physicians in the community, may not only treat breast cancer. They may treat every single type of cancer, and it’s very hard to stay specifically on top of all of the new drugs and new options coming out in every tumor type; it’s virtually impossible.

So, I just think it’s important to be an advocate. Never be afraid to ask a question. Most physicians should not feel threatened by that. We like a patient to be engaged. So, never worry or be fearful about that. 

An Expert Review of Emerging Metastatic Breast Cancer Research

An Expert Review of Emerging Metastatic Breast Cancer Research from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What’s the latest in metastatic breast cancer (MBC) research? Expert Dr. Sarah Sammons shares an overview of emerging treatment options and how they could be utilized in MBC care.

Dr. Sarah Sammons is an oncologist at Duke Cancer Institute and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Duke University School of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Sammons here.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Should Know About Treatment and Research

Metastatic BC Research: How Can You Advocate for the Latest Treatment?

Metastatic BC Research: How Can You Advocate for the Latest Treatment?

Why Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Consider a Clinical Trial?


Transcript:

Katherine:

When it comes to metastatic breast cancer research and emerging treatment options, what are you excited about specifically?

Dr. Sammons:

That’s a really good question. I think, right now, I’m very interested in a class of drugs called antibody drug conjugates.

What antibody drug conjugates are – they take a monoclonal antibody, which is – most patients have heard of Herceptin. So, Herceptin is an antibody which goes in and targets HER2. But that antibody is actually linked to a payload of chemotherapy cells. But instead of just – regular chemotherapy we inject that chemotherapy into the veins, it goes all throughout the body, it can be fairly toxic.

Antibody drug conjugates specifically find the cells that have that biomarker, like HER2, or TROP2, or HER3, and they find that cell, and they don’t release their chemotherapy until they’re taken up by that cell. So, it’s more a targeted, focused chemotherapy.

There is an antibody drug conjugate in HER2-positive breast cancer called Enhertu, or trastuzumab deruxtecan, which is – has been shown to have excellent efficacy in very heavily pre-treated HER2-postitive breast cancer.

It’s moving into earlier lines of therapy. The drug is so effective in HER2-positive breast cancer, we’re also looking at it in something called HER2-low breast cancer. So, breast cancers that we never thought before would respond to HER2 targeted therapy is – it appears that even if they express a little of HER2, this drug might have efficacy. So, that’s in clinical trials, and that’s really exciting.

What’s also great, is about 60 percent of women with hormone receptor-positive breast cancer are HER2-low. So, that could be a really great drug option in the future for those patients.

There’s another antibody drug conjugate called sacituzumab govitecan, which is approved in triple-negative breast cancer, and was shown to improve overall survival, which you always want at the end of the day – a drug that is well-tolerated and helps patients live longer.

That drug is approved in triple-negative breast cancer, but we’re now looking at it in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer.

There are also a variety of other antibody drug conjugates in clinical trials. One that’s looking at HER3, a few others that are looking at HER2, and also TROP2.

So, I’m definitely excited about antibody drug conjugates.

I’m also very excited about the field of immunotherapy in general. Immunotherapy has sort of lagged behind in breast cancer compared to some other tumor types like lung cancer and melanoma. But in triple-negative breast cancer, we finally have approval for two types of immunotherapy, but only if they have a certain biomarker.

Right now, immunotherapy only helps patients with metastatic triple-negative breast cancer if they express something called PDL1. So, we have FDA approval for two different immunotherapies for PDL1-positive triple-negative breast cancer. And there are many different strategies ongoing in clinical trials with different types of immunotherapy that try to harness the patient’s immune system to fight the cancer, instead of just giving regular chemotherapy. It’s really trying to help the patient’s immune response help fight the cancer. 

How Can You Ensure You’ve Had Essential Metastatic Breast Cancer Testing?

How Can You Ensure You’ve Had Essential Metastatic Breast Cancer Testing? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

How can metastatic breast cancer patient ensure they receive essential testing? Dr. Jane Lowe Meisel explains how tests can vary by patient and shares advice for key questions to ask to help ensure optimal care.

Jane Lowe Meisel, MD is an Associate Professor of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Winship Cancer Institute at Emory University. Learn more about Dr. Meisel here.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

Essential Testing Following a Metastatic Breast Cancer Diagnosis

How Genetic Mutations Affect Metastatic Breast Cancer Prognosis and Treatment

What Are Essential Genetic Tests for Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients?


Transcript:

Katherine:

We’ve talked about several key tests. Some patients may be confused about whether they’ve received these tests. So, what questions should they ask their physician to make sure they’re getting appropriate testing?

Dr. Meisel:

I think it’s probably useful because not everybody needs every test, and I think there are often things you hear about online or from friends or even in a webinar like this and there may be a good reason why you haven’t had that particular test. So, I wouldn’t assume that if you haven’t had everything that we’ve talked about today even, that someone’s made a mistake or that you need that and aren’t getting it. But I would ask. I think it’s always helpful to know more, knowledge is power. And so, if you have never had a CT scan or a CA27-29 level or a genomic testing.

I think it’s not a bad thing if you’re curious about it, to just ask your treating team, “Hey, I heard about genomic testing, is there a reason I haven’t had that? Or have I had that?” Maybe you have, and they called it something else. I think it is complicated, but I think it helps to understand what you’ve had done and what you haven’t had done. And sometimes, asking about something like that may prompt the team to do things that my benefit you. 

Is Your Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Effective?

Is Your Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Effective? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

How can metastatic breast cancer treatment effectiveness be gauged? Dr. Jane Lowe Meisel shares important indicators, including symptom improvement, and discusses periodic testing that can help track a patient’s treatment results.

Jane Lowe Meisel, MD is an Associate Professor of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Winship Cancer Institute at Emory University. Learn more about Dr. Meisel here.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

How Can You Advocate for the Best Breast Cancer Care?

Factors That Guide a Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Decision

Which Metastatic Breast Cancer Treatment Is Right for You? Guide


Transcript:

Katherine:

We have another question we received earlier, this one from Eileen. She asks, “How will I know whether my treatment is working?”

Dr. Meisel:

That’s a really good question. So, I think for patients who have symptoms from their cancer, they often will know the drug is working because their symptoms improve. Say if you have lung metastases and you are short of breath and your shortness of breath gets better. That’s a really good sign that the treatment is working. I would say that often what we are doing, and it depends a little bit on the regimen and what the patient is getting and how often they’re coming in.

But we’re checking labs as well and sometimes there are lab abnormalities when a patient is diagnosed with metastatic cancer that can then improve over time. So, for example, if someone has a heavy burden of bone involvement with breast cancer, there’s a lab value called the alkaline phosphatases that will often be elevated. If that starts elevated and comes down, that’s a really good sign. And some of their liver function tests that we check and if a patient has liver metastases, we often will see those come down if a patient is responding.

There are also, what we call tumor markers that we can check in patients with metastatic breast cancer. Those would be proteins in the blood basically that can be made by the breast cancer in abundance. And those are called CA27-29 and CA15.3. Some doctors check both of them. Some will just check one depending on which one their laboratory at their institution is running. But typically, I will check those at diagnosis of metastatic disease. And then if it’s elevated, I know it’s a good marker to follow for my patient. And then I’ll follow that monthly or every three weeks, depending on when the patient is coming in to see me.

And if I see that marker start to go down, it’s not an absolute, but it can be a good early indicator of improvement with the treatment. And then I think it varies a little bit from practice to practice and based on patient preference. But often there will be scans done when a patient is initially diagnosed to determine the extent of the disease. So, usually a CT scan of the chest and the abdomen and the pelvis or a PET scan, which some of you may have heard of. Either one of those is good.

And that can be done about every 12 weeks usually in the beginning, to make sure a patient is responding and once you feel confident that they are, those can be done less frequently. So, I would say the scans and the lab work and then the patient’s overall condition are usually the way that we look to see, are we having a response or not. 

Why Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Consider a Clinical Trial?

Why Should Metastatic Breast Cancer Patients Consider a Clinical Trial? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Why should metastatic breast cancer patients consider participating in a clinical trial? Dr. Jane Lowe Meisel discusses when clinical trials may be considered, explains the stages of trials, and shares a valuable resource for patients.

Jane Lowe Meisel, MD is an Associate Professor of Hematology and Medical Oncology at Winship Cancer Institute at Emory University. Learn more about Dr. Meisel here.

See More From INSIST! Metastatic Breast Cancer

Related Resources:

What Could Advances in Breast Cancer Research Mean for You?

How Can You Advocate for the Best Breast Cancer Care?

Metastatic BC Research: How Can You Advocate for the Latest Treatment?

Metastatic BC Research: How Can You Advocate for the Latest Treatment?


Transcript:

Katherine:

So, you mentioned earlier, clinical trials. When should patients consider participating in a trial?

Dr. Meisel:

I think it’s a great question and I think the answer is really, almost any time. There are trials in every setting. So, I think one of the common misconceptions about clinical trials is that you really only should be in a clinical trial, or your doctor might only mention a clinical trial if they don’t have other options for you or if you’re really in stage. And I think that perception is changing. But I think the reality is that there are clinical trials in every setting.

So, we have clinical trails looking at prevention of breast cancer. Clinical trials looking to optimize early-stage treatment of breast cancer. Clinical trials looking at secondary prevention, so once you’ve had breast cancer, how can we reduce your risk of recurrence. And then lots of clinical trials in the metastatic setting both for patients who are initially diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer.

And then in second, third, fourth line and even for patients who have had tons and tons of additional therapy that we’re looking at new drugs for. So, I think at almost any juncture where you’re making a treatment change, it’s probably appropriate to say, would there be a clinical trail that you can think of that would be good for me in this setting? And it may be that there’s a one that’s 12 hours away, and it’s not convenient for you or feasible.

And maybe that your doctor doesn’t necessarily know of one but then that prompts them to ask a colleague who may be more involved in clinical trial design and development. Or it may be that there is one, but you ultimately choose not to pursue it because you have a different option. But I think it’s always appropriate to ask, would there be a trail for me? Because if there is, then maybe that opens up an option you hadn’t thought about before.

Katherine:

Sure. For patients who aren’t familiar with the stages of clinical trials, would you give us a brief overview of the stages?

Dr. Meisel:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, in terms of clinical trials that’re being done in humans, we talk about Phase I, Phase II, and Phase III typically. So, a Phase II clinical trial is typically an earlier stage trial.

Looking at either a drug that has not been tested in humans before or a drug that has not been tested in a particular combination in humans before. And so, those trials are done only in select institutions, usually academic institutions as opposed to private hospitals. And they often have what’s called a dose finding phase and then a dose escalation phase. So, the earliest part of those trials is actually looking at, what is the safest dose to give to patients?

So, they start the first patients at a low dose of the compound. And if those patients do well, the next patients that’re enrolled get enrolled at a slightly higher dose. And then up until they reach the highest dose they can find where people are tolerating it and doing reasonably well. And in those Phase I trials, doctors and investigators are also evaluating efficacy, is this drug working. But the primary goal of the early phase trial is actually to find the right dose to then study in larger groups. And so, if they find the right dose and there’s good biological rationale for the compound, then the trial would go on to a Phase II.

Which might be just what we call single arm Phase II study, where every patient is getting that experimental drug. And we monitor them to see, is the drug effective or is it less effective than the standard of care? Or sometimes they’re what we call, randomized Phase II trials where patients are randomized to either get the experimental drug, or to get what the standard of care would be in that situation. I think a lot of people get afraid about the idea of a randomized trial because they’re afraid they’re going to be randomized to a placebo. And that is really not done in the metastatic setting because it wouldn’t be ethical to give a patient with active cancer a placebo.

So, usually the randomization would be either to the study compound or to a standard of care drug. And then if things look good in a Phase II trial, then a Phase III study is done which is usually what the FDA requires to allow a drug to go on and be administered outside of a study for approval. And those Phase III trials tend to be larger studies that’re done in larger groups of patients with more statistical validity because of their size, to determine, is this drug really better than the standard.