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Managing Toxicities and Access in Follicular Lymphoma Care

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Follicular lymphoma care includes some powerful treatment options, but what should patients know about toxicities? Expert Dr. Kami Maddocks from The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center discusses common toxicity side effects with specific follicular lymphoma treatments. 

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See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Related Resources:

Understanding New Frontiers in Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Treatment

Understanding New Frontiers in Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Treatment

 Follicular Lymphoma Relapse and Side Effects: Expert Approaches to Care

Follicular Lymphoma Relapse and Side Effects: Expert Approaches to Care

 Managing Follicular Lymphoma: The Role of Observation and Watchful Waiting

Managing Follicular Lymphoma: The Role of Observation and Watchful Waiting

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

So regarding those toxicities, like the ICANS and the CRS, is there a difference in how you treat patients? For example, if a patient might experience those side effects, are they hospitalized for that type of treatment initially, or are all of these new treatments done on an outpatient basis?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So the answer can be variable depending on the specific product or the center where the patient’s receiving them, and then even the disease that they’re used in. So let’s just talk about bispecific antibodies to start. So the first bispecific antibody that was approved in follicular lymphoma was mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio). There’s no required hospitalization to administer that, but there is a recommendation that if patients have signs or symptoms of cytokine release. 

So the primary symptom is fever. That’s the number one most common symptom that patients will get and how we define cytokine release. But patients can also have hypoxia or a drop in the oxygen or hypotension and a drop in their blood pressure. So if they have these, it’s generally recommended that they’re admitted for a period of observation to ensure that those toxicities don’t worsen or escalate and that they’re treated if they do.

Which treatment can include ruling out other causes? Some patients may need antibiotics if they have low blood counts and a fever. Some people will need fluids and oxygen. Then sometimes we use steroids like dexamethasone (Decadron) or even cytokine blockers to help manage those side effects, particularly if they’re what we call higher grade or more significant.

The second bispecific antibody epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly). That was previously approved in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma and there was a recommended hospitalization with a step-up dosing for that. However, in follicular lymphoma, when they studied that, they gave an extra dose. So part of trying to prevent the cytokine release is giving a lower dose and then increasing the dose each week until you reach the maximum dose. So they added an extra kind of intermediate dosing in the follicular dosing and showed that that made a lower risk of…a lower number of patients had cytokine release. And that the majority of them had the lowest grade cytokine release.

So in follicular lymphoma, it’s actually with that increased one dose in there to get to the maximum dose. It’s actually not recommended, or it’s not required that patients are hospitalized for any of the doses. But, of course, if they would, same thing, if they would have side effects, then you would consider that. And then the same thing could be said for the CAR T-cell therapies. Some of them are given inpatient and then patients are monitored for a period of time, and then some are administered as an outpatient. And patients are seen daily for that to check on how they’re doing, monitor for side effects, have labs. And sometimes it just depends on the center administering the therapy, how they have a setup for patients to be monitored.

Lisa Hatfield:

Are these newer approved therapies, are they available at some of the smaller cancer centers, or are they only available right now at the larger cancer centers or academic centers? Then my second question is, are they limited duration therapies or like bispecific antibodies, does that just continue until disease progression?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, those are great questions. So in general, if you look at the combination of the obinutuzumab (Gazyva) and zanubrutinib (Brukinsa) that should be able to be administered anywhere, the therapy for the oral therapy is continued until progression. If you look at the bispecific antibodies, there’s both. There’s a time-limited therapy, and then there’s one continued until progression.

I think in general, we’ve seen that initially these have been used at larger treatment centers, but now that they’ve been approved for a while, we have seen a lot of these being used at smaller cancer centers and in the community centers. Sometimes patients may receive their initial dosing at a larger center and then transition to a local center. But I think, like I said, now, especially the one that’s been approved for a while, we’re seeing that it can be started at many places.

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Follicular Lymphoma Expert Q&A: Coping with Relapse and Managing Treatment Side Effects

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Follicular lymphoma expert Dr. Kami Maddocks from The Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center empowers patients and families with practical guidance on key aspects of managing follicular lymphoma. Dr. Maddocks covers effective strategies for managing treatment side effects, navigating the challenges of relapsed or refractory disease, and defining what survivorship means for both patients and their care partners.

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See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Related Resources:

How Do Outcomes for Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Vary?

How Do Outcomes for Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Vary?

 Addressing Vulnerabilities in Follicular Lymphoma

Addressing Vulnerabilities in Follicular Lymphoma

 What Are Common Follicular Lymphoma Treatment Side Effects?

What Are Common Follicular Lymphoma Treatment Side Effects?

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Welcome to this START HERE Patient Empowerment Network program. This program bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients and care partners to feel comfortable asking questions of their healthcare team. I’m Lisa Hatfield, a cancer survivor and also an Empowerment Lead at Patient Empowerment Network. Joining me today is hematologist-oncologist

Dr. Kami Maddocks, Professor of Clinical Internal Medicine in the Division of Hematology at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center. Dr. Maddocks specializes in treating patients with B-cell malignancies, including non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, and chronic lymphocytic leukemia. Dr. Maddocks researches new therapies for these hematologic malignancies, largely through evaluating new targeted therapies in clinical trials. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Maddocks.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Thank you, Lisa. It’s a real pleasure to be here with everyone today and talking about follicular lymphoma, and I just really appreciate you having me.

Lisa Hatfield:

The world is complicated, but understanding your follicular lymphoma diagnosis and treatment options along your journey doesn’t have to be. The goal of START HERE is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of your follicular lymphoma treatment and survivorship. Joining us are patients and care partners facing a follicular lymphoma diagnosis, some of which are newly diagnosed, in active treatment, watch and wait, and also living for years with their disease.

START HERE is designed to provide easy-to-understand, reliable, and digestible information to help you make informed decisions. I’m thrilled you’ve joined us. Please remember to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There is great information there that will be useful during this program and after. Okay, Dr. Maddocks, let’s start here. What is the latest in follicular lymphoma, and what are the most important highlights for patients and families?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

When we look at some of the stuff that’s changed in follicular lymphoma, there has actually been some really exciting developments just in the last year in follicular lymphoma. So when you look at patients who have relapsed or refractory follicular lymphoma, we’ve actually seen the approval of three different new therapies just in the last year for relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. So one of those therapies, we saw a brand new approval, and that’s a therapy which combines an oral targeted therapy with a monoclonal antibody.

So the combination of the CD20 antibody, obinutuzumab (Gazyva), in combination with the BTK inhibitor zanubrutinib (Brukinsa) was approved in March of 2024 for patients with relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. And this was based on a study that compared that to the single agent anti-CD20 antibody. So while we have had CD20 antibodies approved in both original treatment for follicular lymphoma and relapsed disease, it was the first time that we’ve had a BTK inhibitor approved for the treatment of relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma.

In May of 2024, we saw the approval of actually the third chimeric antigen receptor T cell or CAR T-cell therapy for relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. So previously, we’ve had two different CAR Ts that target the same antigen or protein CD19 on the cell. And the third therapy with the same target was approved in May of this year for relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. And then in June of 2024, we actually saw the approval of the second bispecific antibody for the treatment of relapsed and refractory follicular lymphoma.

So previously, we had one approved almost two years ago in December, and a second one, epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly) was approved in June of this year for patients with relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. So three different treatments approved in this setting in the last year, which increases the options for patients. It also provides us with thinking about sequencing these agents. And there’s a lot of studies ongoing to decide or to think about what is the best way to sequence therapy, because there’s no right or wrong answer currently in which therapy did you choose and when in patients with relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma.

And then thinking about managing when we’re choosing these therapies, what are the side effects of these therapies and managing these side effects? Right? Because chemotherapy is often used for patients with initial diagnosis, and there is very specific side effects to chemotherapy and ways to manage those side effects. But when we look at some of these newer therapies, we have to think about the different toxicity profiles that they have and how we manage those toxicities.

So when we’re thinking about the newer therapies, like bispecific antibodies and CAR T-cell therapies, there’s very specific toxicity with those therapies, including cytokine release or CRS. And then something called ICANS, which is immune effector cell-associated neurologic toxicities, which are neuro side effects of these therapies. And so how do we identify and manage those therapies and now even looking at ways to potentially prevent patients from having those specific toxicities.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So regarding those toxicities, like the ICANS and the CRS, is there a difference in how you treat patients? For example, if a patient might experience those side effects, are they hospitalized for that type of treatment initially, or are all of these new treatments done on an outpatient basis?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So the answer can be variable depending on the specific product or the center where the patient’s receiving them, and then even the disease that they’re used in. So let’s just talk about bispecific antibodies to start. So the first bispecific antibody that was approved in follicular lymphoma was mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio). There’s no required hospitalization to administer that, but there is a recommendation that if patients have signs or symptoms of cytokine release.

So the primary symptom is fever. That’s the number one most common symptom that patients will get and how we define cytokine release. But patients can also have hypoxia or a drop in the oxygen or hypotension and a drop in their blood pressure. So if they have these, it’s generally recommended that they’re admitted for a period of observation to ensure that those toxicities don’t worsen or escalate and that they’re treated if they do.

Which treatment can include ruling out other causes. Some patients may need antibiotics if they have low blood counts and a fever. Some people will need fluids and oxygen. Then sometimes we use steroids like dexamethasone (Decadron) or even cytokine blockers to help manage those side effects, particularly if they’re what we call higher grade or more significant. The second bispecific antibody epcoritamab-bysp. That was previously approved in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma and there was a recommended hospitalization with a step-up dosing for that.

However, in follicular lymphoma, when they studied that, they gave an extra dose. So part of trying to prevent the cytokine release is giving a lower dose and then increasing the dose each week until you reach the maximum dose. So they added an extra kind of intermediate dosing in the follicular dosing and showed that that made a lower risk of…a lower number of patients had cytokine release. And that the majority of them had the lowest grade cytokine release.

So in follicular lymphoma, it’s actually with that increased one dose in there to get to the maximum dose. It’s actually not recommended, or it’s not required that patients are hospitalized for any of the doses. But, of course, if they would, same thing, if they would have side effects, then you would consider that. And then the same thing could be said for the CAR T-cell therapies. Some of them are given inpatient and then patients are monitored for a period of time, and then some are administered as an outpatient. And patients are seen daily for that to check on how they’re doing, monitor for side effects, have labs. And sometimes it just depends on the center administering the therapy, how they have a setup for patients to be monitored.

Lisa Hatfield:

So I have two follow-up questions to that overview. Are these newer approved therapies, are they available at some of the smaller cancer centers, or are they only available right now at the larger cancer centers or academic centers? Then my second question is, are they limited duration therapies or like bispecific antibodies, does that just continue until disease progression?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, those are great questions. So in general, if you look at the combination of the obinutuzumab and zanubrutinib that should be able to be administered anywhere, the therapy for the oral therapy is continued until progression. If you look at the bispecific antibodies, there’s both. There’s a time-limited therapy, and then there’s one continued until progression. I think in general, we’ve seen that initially these have been used at larger treatment centers, but now that they’ve been approved for a while, we have seen a lot of these being used at smaller cancer centers and in the community centers. Sometimes patients may receive their initial dosing at a larger center and then transition to a local center. But I think, like I said, now, especially the one that’s been approved for a while, we’re seeing that it can be started at many places.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you so much for that important overview, Dr. Maddocks. All right, it’s that time where we answer questions we’ve received from you. Remember, as patients, we should always feel empowered to ask our healthcare providers any and all questions we might have about our treatment and prognosis. Please remember, however, this program is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your own medical team. So before we dive into this Q&A, since this program centers on coping with relapse and managing treatment side effects, how do you approach these first-time conversations with patients and their care partners who are facing relapse and potentially dealing with a new set of side effects due to the changes in their treatment regimen?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

I think that’s a great question, and I think there are a lot of things to consider. So I think the first thing that we want to think about when we’re talking about patients having relapsed or refractory follicular lymphoma is that just because patients have relapsed or refractory follicular lymphoma doesn’t always mean that they need treatment. So many patients, when they’re initially diagnosed with follicular lymphoma, are going to go through a period of observation or watch and wait where we know that they have follicular lymphoma, but they don’t have symptoms of their disease.

They don’t have a large number of lymph nodes involved, or their lymph nodes are not very large by the scans, and they don’t necessarily need to be treated until they become symptomatic or have certain concerns from their lymphoma that’s causing problems. So the same thing can happen probably more with relapse than necessarily refractory disease, but patients may…you may detect on scans that they have lymph nodes that are growing or that their disease has recurred, but they don’t always necessarily need to receive treatment.

Once you’ve identified that, yes, a patient requires treatment for their relapsed or refractory follicular lymphoma, the next thing to think about is that patient and their disease. So what age is the patient? What were they treated with initially? Because not all patients receive the same initial therapy. So the decision about what they’re going to receive when they relapse is going to be somewhat dependent on what they received for their initial therapy, what side effects they had from that therapy, and how they responded to that therapy.

The next thing is going to be that there is not just one option at relapse so really discussing the different options for those specific patients, and what are the options, what are the side effects of those options, what is the treatment schedule of those options? Because some treatments may have more toxicity, but they’re time-limited, whereas other therapies may be continued to help progression, they may have less toxicity, but over time that’s a toxicity that patients continue to experience on a daily basis.

So really talking to the patient about the options, what does the schedule of that treatment look like? Do they have to come in weekly? Do they have to come in once a month? And then again, the side effects and how that fits into side effects that they had with their initial therapy, how they tolerate that, are any of those side effects still there?  For example, if a patient has neuropathy from their therapy, that might be something that lasts and then considering all those things and making an informed decision with the patient.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. And these questions are in the perfect order, because we have a question from Lauren asking you, what is the difference between relapsed and refractory? 

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Okay, this is another great question. I’m sure all these questions are great. When we think of relapsed disease, we think of a patient who’s had therapy, got in a response to that therapy, that response has lasted some time, and then their disease recurs. When we think of refractory, we think of that more as patients that have received a therapy, and they haven’t responded. Now, there is no standard definition of refractory. So we all agree that if a patient gets a treatment and their disease does not respond to that treatment, they’re refractory to that treatment.

But there’s no defined time for which if a patient has a treatment and responds to that treatment but has a short relapse, what’s really considered refractory. In general, a lot of studies that look at a therapy say that if you’ve had it, like if you’ve had rituximab (Rituxan) and you’ve relapsed within a six-month time frame, that that’s refractory. But some studies use three months instead of six months.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. Another patient, Jeff, is asking, Dr. Maddocks, I’m currently in an observation stage of non-Hodgkin lymphoma. I get blood work twice a year and scans once a year. I’m hoping it stays slow-growing. How long on average can a person live in observation mode before treatment must occur?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So this is another great question. And I’m going to provide kind of an overview that we’ll kind of set up, because there may be more questions like this. But in general follicular lymphoma is not one disease, which I’m sure since this is a program focused on relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma, a lot of patients have heard this and know this. But it’s what we call it’s very heterogeneous, or it can behave very differently in patients, meaning that some patients will have very indolent disease, and then there’s a small portion of patients whose disease will be more aggressive.

We know that when we diagnose patients with follicular lymphoma there are some patients that are diagnosed and require treatment pretty quickly, whereas there are other patients that go many years, many, many years without requiring treatment. Some of that is because of the disease, and some of that is because of how we find a patient’s follicular lymphoma. Some patients, we don’t find it until they present with symptoms. Some patients find their own lymph nodes, and some patients are diagnosed because they have a baseline scan that for a totally different reason, maybe get into a car accident, have scans to make sure nothing’s broken, you find an enlarged lymph node, you biopsy it, and you find this diagnosis.

All that said, there are some studies that have looked at patients who are on observation or watch and wait and looked at treating patients who have what we call low tumor burden, or not a lot of lymph nodes, or not very large lymph nodes, but have what’s called advanced stage disease. So lymph nodes on both sides of the diaphragm, not large enough to necessarily require more aggressive treatment, they don’t have symptoms. But we’ve treated, we’ve looked at studies treating those patients with observation or watch and wait or single agent rituximab (Rituxan) therapy. And when you look at the patients in those trials, the median time to needing treatment for patients from observation was three years.

However, there were 30 percent of patients, so one out of three patients who were still being observed at 10 years without requiring any therapy. So there are patients, that’s almost a third of patients at 10 years who’ve been observed, not required therapy in that population of patients. And certainly I have been practicing for a while where I’ve seen patients, I do have some patients who’ve gone longer than that without needing therapy.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. And there you go, Jeff, we hope that you’re in that third. 

Okay, thank you for explaining that. Next question, I’m not sure if it’s Jeff Run or Jeffrey is asking about the most common side effects that are associated with bispecific antibodies, and what precautions can be taken to reduce the risk of infection?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, another great question. There are two different bispecific antibodies that are now approved for relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. And I will take this time to also say that some of the exciting ongoing work is looking at those agents in clinical trials, in the frontline setting, in combination with other therapies particularly non chemotherapies.In general, I would say similar side effect profile. The most common side effect between them is the cytokine release or the CRS. So that is the most common side effect. Again, this can be defined in different ways. The most common side effects that you see from that define CRS are fever, hypotension or low blood pressure, hypoxia or low oxygen, shortness of breath, chills, tachycardia or higher heart rate. 

We have talked a lot about CRS and what it entails and how it is defined and presents. But management, it depends on what we call grading. So for patients who just, who have a fever, oftentimes, number one, you want to make sure that it is CRS and that there’s not an underlying cause. So ruling out infection or coexisting infection, if a patient is neutropenic or has a low neutrophil count and is at high risk for infection, you may treat them with antibiotics with a fever while you rule out infection.

But oftentimes, if they have a fever, you can manage symptomatically anti-fever medications like acetaminophen (Tylenol). If a patient has worsening CRS and has other symptoms associated with it, such as the hypoxia, low oxygen, or hypotension, low blood pressure, then that’s when we escalate therapy. So one you direct treatment towards that. So if they need fluid, if they need oxygen, but then that’s when you’re thinking about starting medications such as the steroid medication. So we give intravenous dexamethasone, or there are certain cytokine blockers such as tocilizumab (Actemra) that can be given to help treat the side effects of the cytokine release.

Other common side effects or that we’re seeing in more patients in the clinical trials, fatigue, rash, and then infections including upper respiratory infections, and then COVID-19 infection as well. So part of treatment of these side effects is early recognition of the side effects. So patients are monitored closely and that you’re dealing with the side effects to help them from worsening. I think infection prevention is very important with these. So it’s recommended to consider prophylaxis for certain infections. So antiviral medication to prevent viral, such as shingles reactivation, medication to prevent a specific type of pneumonia, PJP pneumonia, and then consideration I think of just making sure that patients are up to date on vaccination. And if patients do have infection while they’re getting treated, potentially delaying treatment or taking a break in order for them to recover from treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. And this person did not give their name but is asking, Dr. Maddocks, I wanted to know how to travel as safely as possible. Is it advisable to get certain vaccines for travel like yellow fever? I plan to travel to Europe via plane and cruise. They say that there’s stage III non-Hodgkin’s follicular lymphoma getting treatment every eight weeks.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So this is a great question, and I’m probably going to answer this a little bit more generically, because I think that it can depend a little bit as far as what specific vaccines. But when thinking about travel, I think that it’s a good idea to look at where you’re traveling because both, where you’re traveling time of year you’re traveling and what you’re going to do when you’re somewhere can depend on what vaccines are recommended. I usually advise patients to consider looking at the CDC guidelines for recommendations for what should be received in that area, travel that time of year, what they’re going to be doing.

And then sometimes there are places that will actually have a travel clinic. Once I know what vaccines are recommended, the patient knows what vaccines are recommended, then I usually work with them and pharmacy to decide what vaccines, if they can receive all those vaccines or if there were certain ones that we may not recommend. In general, it can depend on a patient, what treatments they’ve received or if they’re actively receiving treatments. But in general, we like to avoid live virus vaccines in our patients. So I take into all those factors and then would recommend discussing the specifics with your physician.

Lisa Hatfield:

Luca is asking what are the long-term side effects of bispecific antibody treatment, and how will I be monitored for them after treatment ends?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So another great question. I think, when we think about the side effects in general, the bispecific antibodies in the CAR T both have those unique toxicity, cytokine release being the most common. And then you also have worry about the neurological toxicity. The difference is that, depending on the specific, bispecific or CAR T that you use, but we usually, typically see these occur in lower grade or not as severe with a bispecific antibody than you can see with a CAR T-cell therapy.

You can still have cytopenias and infection risk with these therapies. Whereas in chemotherapy, we think of that as more generalized toxicities, with the cytopenias, with the risk of infection with the GI toxicities. When we think about long-term side effects, so I think one of the important things to recognize is that bispecific antibodies have not been around that long in the scheme of things, though we can’t say, the risk of 20 years, what do we see or even 10 years.

But when we think about what we have seen, we’ve seen things like the cytokine release, the infections, the cytopenias, but what we haven’t seen is things like the secondary malignancies that we worry about when we think about chemotherapy or even maybe immunomodulatory therapy or secondary cancers that patients can develop. I think for long-term monitoring, right now, at least the biggest thing you want to think about is that these therapies do deplete the lymphocytes, for a prolonged time. And so the risk of viral infections or reactivation of infections, and making sure that’s being considered.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. That’s an important question. So another may possibly be a care partner, Marilyn. How can I best support my loved one during relapse and what should I do if I notice my husband with new or worsening symptoms?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So another great question. I think it’s first of all important to ask the physician about what symptoms to watch for. So you know, are there certain worsening new symptoms or worsening symptoms that seem more likely to be related to follicular lymphoma versus something else. I think it’s always important to encourage your loved one if they are experiencing new symptoms to reach out to the physician so that they can be evaluated. Because follicular lymphoma is a disease that many people live with and many people live with it for many years. We know that patients can experience other things.

Not everything is going to be just because of the follicular lymphoma. So it’s important to be evaluated, and recognize what is going on and what is attributed to the follicular lymphoma. I think being supportive, thinking of questions to ask and making sure that those questions are answered. I think thinking about, are there resources available? I think educating yourself is one of the most important things that people can do. So knowledge is power. So just participating in things like this I think can be very helpful, because learning about what’s out there, knowing that there are many options, I think being supportive and having a positive attitude, are all helpful things.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So we have another big and important question from Aubrey. How can I live a full life with follicular lymphoma while managing the emotional toll of knowing the disease may relapse? And what lifestyle changes or habits should I focus on to maintain my health during remission?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so this is another great question, and I think there’s probably lots of different ways to answer this or lots of different things to consider. So I think in general, as we’ve talked about follicular lymphoma is something that people live with for a long time. So thinking about just your general health and general disposition. So, we want to think about incorporating exercise, incorporating a healthy lifestyle, thinking about exercise, and being physically active.

Thinking about particularly diet and not saying that there’s any food that you need to avoid or any specific thing, but I think eating healthy is important. I think sleep hygiene is, can be very critical for patients. I think finding, and then just general health, it’s good to have a PCP so that you’re getting good routine health maintenance. We have to think about making sure that we’re managing other medical things like blood pressure, glucose, looking, doing other routine cancer screenings, depending, if somebody’s male or female, but the screening that’s recommended for that.

Now when we’re thinking about managing this does take an emotional toll because a lot of times, when somebody’s initially diagnosed, if they don’t need treatment, the question is always like, well, how long am I, is it going to be before I’m going to need treatment? How am I going to tolerate that treatment? How long is that treatment going to last? And then that resets once a patient’s had treatment. Well, how long will I stay in remission for this treatment? What’s going to be next?

I think things that can help with that are, sometimes I think involving like psychosocial oncology, I think support groups, I think that it’s very beneficial for many patients to talk to people, whether it be through a u look at the median age at diagnosis is in the 60s, and median overall survival is greater than 20 years. So many patients are going to live with this more like a chronic disease. And so learning to kind of knowing basic facts on what it is, what are the treatments that are available, what do those treatments look like, what are the reasons that you need those treatments? And that you are able many times in those periods of not needing treatment to live a very normal lifestyle and do things. I think making sure that, I think it’s important.

One thing that I think can be helpful is you’ll continuously follow up with your physician. So thinking about questions and concerns that you have throughout the period of time, writing them down that gets them out of your mind on paper. And then when you go to see your doctor next, you have that list of questions. Because I think, sometimes we think about things, and then we worry, worry, worry. But putting them down on paper or even sending them through like a secure MyChart email message and then talking them out, because a lot of times if you don’t do that, then when you go to see your physician you think, oh, I don’t really have any questions.

And then you leave and you’re like, oh, I should have asked these 10 different things. So again, I think asking for resources. So there are many different patient friendly resources out there. I think reading material that’s been written or vetted by medical professionals as opposed to just any random material can be very helpful for patients. And then again sometimes seeking out kind of peer support.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, great, thank you. Sean is saying that he was diagnosed with follicular lymphoma in 2022 and in an active treatment. What advice do you have for someone transitioning from patient to survivor? I am eager and fearful.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Awww. Well, another good question. And I think one thing I want to recognize is that somebody with cancer is defined as a survivor from the time they’re diagnosed moving forward. So you’re already a survivor. But when you, I do think, and I tell patients this, even when we’re talking about starting treatment, I do think that being aware of kind of where patients are at mentally is important.

Because when you go through, when a patient goes through treatment, they’re very focused on next steps and next steps when you’re going through treatment are, when’s my next treatment going to happen? When’s my next scan going to happen? When you get to that point, when you’re done with treatment, you no longer have those small milestones that you’re reaching the next treatment, the next scan. You now are like, oh my gosh, I had this treatment and now, how long is it going to last?

What’s going to happen to me? What else can happen to me? And there can be a lot of fear and anxiety. I would first tell you that’s totally normal. That is a normal feeling to have at this point. So I think one, recognizing that you have them is important. I think considering things like we’ve talked about, is there a survivorship clinic, is there psychosocial oncology? Is there something that might help in talking those things out? I think setting up milestones, what is the next thing? I’m going to have a three-month appointment, I’m going to have labs.

These are the things I need to be thinking about, but if I’m not noticing these also, what things can I do to return to the things I like to do. I think also I would go back to saying, I think this is where just thinking about getting good sleep, getting exercise, eating a healthy, balanced diet, and then socializing and making sure that you’re involving friends and family.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And, Sean, you’re already a survivor, Dr. Maddocks said so. So good luck, Sean. All right, Dr. Maddocks, thank you so much for being part of this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program. It’s these conversations that help patients truly empower themselves along their treatment journey. On behalf of patients like myself and those watching, thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Maddocks.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Well, Lisa, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a real pleasure, and I hope everybody has a great day.

Lisa Hatfield:  

Thank you. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network program.

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Emerging Therapies in Relapsed Follicular Lymphoma: What’s Next?

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What’s the latest in relapsed follicular lymphoma treatment developments? Expert Dr. Brad Kahl from Washington University School of Medicine discusses immunotherapy, combination treatments, bispecific monoclonal antibodies, and the testing status of various therapies. 

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See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Related Resources:

What Is Follicular Lymphoma Exactly?

What Is Follicular Lymphoma Exactly?

 Newly Diagnosed Follicular Lymphoma and Treatment Options

Newly Diagnosed Follicular Lymphoma and Treatment Options

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

We have drugs that are oral, that are, we call them targeted agents, they hit like a molecular pathway inside the cell a lot, and they kill the cells a lot differently than chemotherapy does. And we have a number of new drugs that work through the immune system and try to attack the lymphoma that way.

Dr. Brad Kahl:  

So when we have patients who relapse, probably the most commonly used second-line treatment right now is a combination of a drug called lenalidomide (Revlimid), which is a pill that’s used in a few different cancers. It works very well for certain cancers, and it works well in follicular lymphoma. And that’s given with the immunotherapy drug called rituximab (Rituxan). And that was proven in a study to be very effective. About 80 percent of people will respond to the regimen, and that remission on average lasts in the two to three-year range.

So that’s probably the most commonly used second-line regimen right now in the U.S. for follicular lymphoma. And then there are a number of treatments that are now available in third-line and beyond that are new within the past, say three, four years. And these newer treatments that I’m about to describe are now being tested as second-line treatments and even as first-line treatments.

So it’s possible that some of these treatments I’m about to describe will become in the future, our go to regimens for first-line treatment or second-line treatment. And we hope they do move up, because that means they’re, it means they’re even better than what we’ve been using. So probably the treatments that we’re most excited about right now in follicular lymphoma are the drugs called bispecific monoclonal antibodies.

There are two that are now FDA-approved. One’s called mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio), and that was approved about a year-and-a-half ago. And the other one’s called epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly), and that was approved just a month ago. And basically these drugs are infused or injected under the skin, infused intravenously injected under the skin and their proteins that will literally stick to the lymphoma cells. And when it does that, it kind of coats the cancer cells. And then after these bispecific antibodies coat the tumor cells, they literally will trick the patient’s T cells or healthy T cells to come in and attack the cancer.

So it’s a way of trying to trick the patient’s own immune system to come in and start fighting the cancer. And these two drugs are very promising in the relapsed setting. They work about 80 percent of the time to get some kind of response. About 60 percent of the time patients will go into complete remission, which means we can’t find any evidence for the lymphoma on scans. And they’re both so new that I don’t think we have a full understanding of how durable these remissions are going to be right now.

It looks that like about, if you do get a complete remission, that about half of those patients are holding that complete remission at two and three years. But we’re, we don’t know about four years and five years yet because the drugs are too new. And we expect that if, as these drugs move up and are tested in the second-line setting and in the first-line setting, they’ll work even better because the cancer cells tend to be easier to kill in earlier lines of therapy. Other agents that have moved into the relapsed follicular lymphoma space would include CAR T-cell therapy.

This is a fairly sophisticated complicated approach where you actually will run the patient’s blood through apheresis machine and you will extract the patient’s T cells and those T cells get genetically modified in a lab and then expanded and then are shipped back to the center and then re-infused back into the patient. So now again, we’re tricking the patient’s T cells into fighting their B-cell lymphoma.

And there are three CAR T products that are now FDA approved for use in follicular lymphoma, and they have very high response rates. With seemingly good durability we’re now getting three and four-year follow-up for these CAR T products with about half of people still in remission. The CAR T products probably have a little more toxicity and a little more risk than the bispecifics. So I think most of us are thinking we would try the bispecifics before CAR T, but there might be certain patients where a CAR T strategy is more appropriate to use before a bispecific.

So we’re very excited to have these tools in our toolbox. It’s always good to have more options. And then I should just mention the small molecule inhibitors. So here’s an example. Just this past year there was approval for a small molecule called zanubrutinib (Brukinsa). It targets an enzyme called BTK or Bruton’s tyrosine kinase. This is a pill really well tolerated. It’s given in a combination with an immunotherapy drug called obinutuzumab (Gazyva).

This zanubrutinib-obinutuzumab combination got FDA-approved just this year for recurrent follicular lymphoma. The results look very good for that. It’s very well-tolerated. There’s another oral agent called tazemetostat (Tazverik), which was approved a couple of years ago. It targets a mutated protein in follicular lymphoma. This is, again, is a pill super well-tolerated, very few side effects. So, there’s just a few examples for you of all the different treatment options we have for follicular lymphoma that has recurred after initial treatment.

And believe it or not, the decision-making can be difficult when you have so many choices and so many good choices, that’s a good problem to have. And I find myself a lot of times spending a lot of time with the patient and their family as we talk through these different options, and we try to think what’s best for them at this point in time, talking through the pros and the cons, how active it is, what side effects do we need to be concerned about. And it’s a lot for patients to digest when you have so many choices. But like I mentioned that’s actually a good problem to have.

Lisa Hatfield:

I think you’re right. There’s a lot of hope in those options. I do have two follow-up questions. One of them is when you talk about lenalidomide or brand name Revlimid, CAR T bispecific antibodies, this new small molecule, are these all quality of life is so important for cancer patients. Are these all limited duration treatments for recurrent disease when there’s a recurrence of the disease, or are they long-term treatments for the disease?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Yeah, really good question. And the answer is different for every agent. So I’ll try to just kind of run through the list. For the CAR T products, the three different CAR T products, it’s like a one-time treatment and then you’re done because the cells that get infused will persist in the patient’s body for months and months and months. So they’re infused and then the cells will hang around a long time acting on the cancer. So for the CAR T it’s a one-time treatment. For the bispecifics, the mosunetuzumab-axgb product is a time-limited treatment that is done in less than a year. The epcoritamab-bysp is designed to be given indefinitely.

So those are, there are some pros and cons of those two agents, the two small molecules that I mentioned, the zanubrutinib is meant to be given indefinitely and the tazemetostat is meant to be given indefinitely. And then the first one I mentioned was the lenalidomide. That is in follicular lymphoma that it was developed to be given for 12 months in this setting. So the duration of therapy is unique for each of the different agents that I mentioned.

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Follicular Lymphoma Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Brad Kahl

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Dr. Brad Kahl from Washington University School of Medicine explores the transformative potential of emerging therapies for follicular lymphoma and their significance for patients and families. He also addresses the unique challenges of living with follicular lymphoma and its impact on patients’ lives today.

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See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Related Resources:

What’s the News on Follicular Lymphoma and Bispecific Antibodies

 What Should Follicular Lymphoma Patients Know About Remission

 What Can Follicular Lymphoma Patients Expect With Remission

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Welcome to this START HERE Patient Empowerment Network program. This program bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients and care partners to feel comfortable asking questions of their health care team. Joining me today is hematologist-oncologist Dr. Brad Kahl, Professor of Medicine in the Division of Oncology at the Washington University School of Medicine and Director of the lymphoma program at the Alvin J. Siteman Cancer Center in St. Louis, Missouri. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Kahl.

Dr. Brad Kahl:

It’s a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Hatfield:  

The world is complicated, but understanding your follicular lymphoma diagnosis and treatment options along your journey doesn’t have to be. The goal of Start Here is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of your follicular lymphoma treatment and survivorship. No matter where you are on your journey, this program is designed to provide easy to understand, reliable, and digestible information to help you make informed decisions. And most of all, we’re asking questions from you. I’m thrilled you’ve joined us.

Please remember to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There is great information there that will be useful during this program and after. Let’s start here. Dr. Kahl, there is a great deal going on in the follicular lymphoma landscape, and I want to dig into that. But before we do, as is custom for this program, I’d like to start with a brief overview of this disease. What is follicular lymphoma? And can you break it down a little bit, the key differences between Hodgkin and non-Hodgkin lymphoma and how follicular lymphoma fits into that?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Sure. The terminology can be kind of confusing to patients, so I’ll try to explain it. Hodgkin lymphoma is a specific kind of lymphoma. Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma just means it’s not Hodgkin’s. So non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is just a big, broad, descriptive term. It’s like saying automobile. But there are lots of different kinds of cars, obviously. So follicular lymphoma is a specific type of non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. So it’d be like saying Chevy Malibu or something specific within that automobile term. So there’s like 100 different kinds of non-Hodgkin lymphoma. Follicular lymphoma is one of those. A

nd it’s kind of a unique answer biologically and clinically. Follicular lymphoma is characterized by this particular mutation inside the cells that sends a signal to the cells that says don’t die. So instead of being a disease of rapid cellular proliferation and growth, it’s more of a disease of slow cellular accumulation. If people can picture that, the cells are just accumulating slowly. So it’s kind of a slow-moving cancer. And probably when patients are diagnosed, they’ve probably had it for a long time already.

They just didn’t know it, because follicular lymphoma often doesn’t cause symptoms. And usually when we get a patient with newly diagnosed follicular lymphoma, the disease is very widespread. And that obviously makes people fearful. And so we spend a lot of time trying to reassure them that’s not a problem that’s typical for follicular lymphoma. Everybody wants to know their stage, of course. And I try to tell them, the stage doesn’t really matter that much in follicular lymphoma. In some cancers, the stage is a big deal. But those are cancers that you can kind of remove surgically.

But there’s really no role for surgery as a treatment in follicular lymphoma. The disease is typically very widespread in diagnosis, meaning it’s all over the body. And so when we do treat it, we pick treatments that will work everywhere. And our treatments tend to work just as well when the disease is at a more advanced stage. That’s why as the doctors, we don’t spend too much time worrying about the stage. It’s just not, it’s not as important in follicular lymphoma.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And just to clarify, when you mentioned that there is a mutation or often mutations in follicular lymphoma, is that in the cancer cells themselves, or is that in a mutation, like a BRCA mutation that a patient can be tested for? I presume it is.

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Right. That’s a great question. The mutation is specific to the cancer cells. So people are not born with this mutation. It’s not a mutation that you pass along in your family to children. It’s a mutation that is acquired in these cells at some point in the patient’s lifetime. Another confusing term is this whole idea of B-cell lymphoma or T-cell lymphoma.

And just to try to clarify that. So we have different kinds of lymphocytes in our body, and these lymphocytes, they have jobs to do as part of our immune system. And one kind of lymphocyte is a T cell, and that has specific roles in our immune system. And another kind is a B cell, and that has specific jobs to do in our immune system. Follicular lymphoma is derived from a B cell, a B-cell lymphocyte. So the…a B cell gets this mutation, and that turns it from a normal healthy B cell into a follicular lymphoma cell.

Lisa Hatfield:  

Okay. Thank you for explaining that and for that overview. That’s really helpful. I appreciate that. So, Dr. Kahl, you also mentioned treatments and how oftentimes it’s not a cancer where you can just remove the cancer. Can you talk about some of the exciting developments with treatments and new innovative therapies, and what are the most important highlights for patients and families?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Yeah. There’s a lot to talk about here. So I’ll start with how we approach a newly diagnosed patient, and then we’ll go into how we approach patients who have relapsed disease. So the most often, or the most common way a follicular lymphoma patient comes to medical attention is they just either notice a lump from an enlarging lymph node, or some enlarged lymph nodes are just found incidentally because they’re having some testing for some other condition.

And so, like I said, very often patients don’t have symptoms. That’s very typical. Occasionally, the patients will have symptoms, and those symptoms might be pain from a large lymph node mass that’s pushing on something. Occasionally, they might have fevers or night sweats. They wake up in the middle of the night just drenching wet, or unexplained weight loss. Those would be symptoms that can occur in follicular lymphoma. But most patients who come to see us for the first time don’t have symptoms.

When we have a newly diagnosed patient and it takes a biopsy to make the diagnosis, we then need to do the staging evaluation. So that involves some sort of imaging. And nowadays that’s usually in the form of what’s called a PET scan, which gives us a good snapshot of the whole body. And it’ll show us enlarged lymph nodes. And then the PET portion of the scan will show us if the lymph nodes are metabolically more active.

So they show up as these bright spots on the PET scan. And that’s what allows us to stage the patient. It tells us where the disease is located and how much of the disease we see. And so I’m often telling patients, I don’t worry so much about the stage. I worry more about the disease burden. So the way I explain that to patient is, suppose I could take all the follicular lymphoma cells out of your body, and I made a pile. How big is the pile? And that’s actually, I think, more important than the stage in determining our initial strategy.

Because believe it or not, if we have a patient who comes to us with a new diagnosis of follicular lymphoma and they have no symptoms, and it turns out that their tumor burden is very low, we often will recommend an initial approach of no treatment, which is a strange thing for patients to hear. And we spend a lot of time trying to explain the rationale for that. So I’ll try to explain that to you now. Follicular lymphoma is hard to cure.

So it’s this weird cancer in that it’s slow-moving. It often doesn’t make people sick, and we have good treatments for it, but curing it, like making it go away once and for all, proves to be kind of difficult. And studies in the past have shown if you have a patient who has no symptoms and is low tumor burden, that their prognosis is just as good if you leave them alone at the beginning. And many patients will not need any treatment at all for two years, three years, five years. I even have follicular lymphoma patients who I’ve been observing for more than 10 years that have never needed any treatment.

About two out of every 10 patients that are newly diagnosed can go 10 years without needing any treatment. So that’s why we’ll start that strategy for some patients. And that’s psychologically can be difficult for patients. You’re telling me I’ve got a new cancer diagnosis. You’re saying you have good treatments for it. And yet you’re saying you don’t want to use any of those treatments. And so it takes a lot of talking and explaining to try to get people comfortable with that.

Some people never get comfortable with that, I admit it. But some people get very comfortable with it. But it is a very appropriate initial strategy for a low tumor burden asymptomatic person just to observe and get a handle on the pace of the disease. If the disease starts to grow, or if the patient starts to get symptoms, we can start our treatment at that time. And the treatment is going to work just as well as it would have had if we started it last year, or two years ago.

So we feel like we’re putting the patient in no harm, no risk of harm by starting on this strategy of a watch and wait. On the other hand, some patients have high tumor burden, they have a lot of disease, or they have symptoms. And for those patients we need to start them on treatment because the treatment can put them in remission and get them feeling better. Right now, the most common frontline treatment in follicular lymphoma will be a combination of some chemotherapy and some immunotherapy.

The most commonly used regimen in the United States right now is a two drug regimen, a chemotherapy drug called bendamustine (Treanda), and an immunotherapy drug called rituximab (Rituxan). And you give that treatment every 28 days for six months. And it’ll put 90 percent of people into remission. And on average, those remissions last five plus years. And it’s a very, very tolerable treatment.  It’s not too bad as far as chemotherapy goes. There’s no, most people don’t lose their hair. They don’t get peripheral neuropathy, that sometimes chemotherapy drugs give.

It’s not too bad for nausea and things like that. I’m not saying it’s easy or it’s fun. It’s none of that. But as far as chemo goes, it’s not too bad. And it’s effective, it is very effective. And I’ve given that treatment and I have people who are still in their first remission 10 years later, so you can get, for some people can get these really long remissions. But the reality is most patients, their disease does come back, they do relapse at some point. And then we have to start talking about what to do for second line treatment or third-line treatments.

And that’s where things have really taken off in follicular lymphoma in the last few years, there are a number of brand new treatment options in play for relapsed follicular lymphoma that are very exciting, and proves that we’re moving away from chemotherapy. We have drugs that are oral, that are, we call them targeted agents, they hit like a molecular pathway inside the cell a lot, and they kill the cells a lot differently than chemotherapy does. And we have a number of new drugs that work through the immune system, and try to attack the lymphoma that way.

So when we have patients who relapse, probably the most commonly used second-line treatment right now is a combination of a drug called lenalidomide (Revlimid), which is a pill that’s used in a few different cancers. It works very well for certain cancers, and it works well in follicular lymphoma. And that’s given with the immunotherapy drug called rituximab. And that was proven in a study to be very effective. About 80 percent of people will respond to the regimen, and that remission on average lasts in the two to three-year range.

So that’s probably the most commonly used second line regimen right now in the U.S. for follicular lymphoma. And then there are a number of treatments that are now available in third-line and beyond that are new within the past, say three, four years. And these newer treatments that I’m about to describe are now being tested as second line treatments and even as first-line treatments.

So it’s possible that some of these treatments I’m about to describe will become in the future, our go to regimens for first line treatment or second line treatment. And we hope they do move up, because that means they’re, it means they’re even better than what we’ve been using. So probably the treatments that we’re most excited about right now in follicular lymphoma are the drugs called bispecific monoclonal antibodies. There are two that are now FDA-approved. One’s called mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio), and that was approved about a year-and-a-half ago.

And the other one’s called epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly), and that was approved just a month ago. And basically these drugs are infused or injected under the skin, infused intravenously injected under the skin and their proteins that will literally stick to the lymphoma cells. And when it does that, it kind of coats the cancer cells. And then after these bispecific antibodies coat the tumor cells, they literally will trick the patient’s T cells or healthy T cells to come in and attack the cancer.

So it’s a way of trying to trick the patient’s own immune system to come in and start fighting the cancer. And these two drugs are very promising in the relapse setting. They work about 80 percent of the time to get some kind of response. About 60 percent of the time patients will go into complete remission, which means we can’t find any evidence for the lymphoma on scans. And they’re both so new that I don’t think we have a full understanding of how durable these remissions are going to be right now.

It looks that like about, if you do get a complete remission, that about half of those patients are holding that complete remission at two and three years. But we’re, we don’t know about four years and five years yet because the drugs are too new. And we expect that if, as these drugs move up and are tested in the second-line setting and in the first-line setting, they’ll work even better because the cancer cells tend to be easier to kill in earlier lines of therapy. Other agents that have moved into the relapse follicular lymphoma space would include CAR T-cell therapy.

This is a fairly sophisticated complicated approach where you actually will run the patient’s blood through apheresis machine and you will extract the patient’s T cells and those T cells get genetically modified in a lab and then expanded and then are shipped back to the center and then re-infused back into the patient. So now again, we’re tricking the patient’s T cells into fighting their B-cell lymphoma.

And there are three CAR T products that are now FDA approved for use in follicular lymphoma, and they have very high response rates. With seemingly good durability we’re now getting three and four-year follow-up for these CAR T products with about half of people still in remission. The CAR T products probably have a little more toxicity and a little more risk than the bispecifics. So I think most of us are thinking we would try the bispecifics before CAR T, but there might be certain patients where a CAR T strategy is more appropriate to use before a bispecific.

So we’re very excited to have these tools in our toolbox. It’s always good to have more options. And then I should just mention the small molecule inhibitors. So here’s an example. Just this past year there was approval for a small molecule called zanubrutinib (Brukinsa). It targets an enzyme called BTK or Bruton’s tyrosine kinase. This is a pill really well tolerated. It’s given in a combination with an immunotherapy drug called obinutuzumab (Gazyva). This zanubrutinib-obinutuzumab combination got FDA-approved just this year for recurrent follicular lymphoma.

The results look very good for that. It’s very well-tolerated. There’s another oral agent called tazemetostat (Tazverik), which was approved a couple of years ago. It targets a mutated protein in follicular lymphoma. This is, again, is a pill super well-tolerated, very few side effects. So, there’s just a few examples for you of all the different treatment options we have for follicular lymphoma that has recurred after initial treatment.

And believe it or not, the decision-making can be difficult when you have so many choices and so many good choices, that’s a good problem to have. And I find myself a lot of times spending a lot of time with the patient and their family as we talk through these different options, and we try to think what’s best for them at this point in time, talking through the pros and the cons, how active it is, what side effects do we need to be concerned about. And it’s a lot for patients to digest when you have so many choices. But like I mentioned that’s actually a good problem to have.

Lisa Hatfield:

I think you’re right. There’s a lot of hope in those options. I do have two follow-up questions. One of them is when you talk about lenalidomide or brand name Revlimid, CAR T bispecific antibodies, this new small molecule, are these all quality of life is so important for cancer patients. Are these all limited duration treatments for recurrent disease when there’s a recurrence of the disease or are they long-term treatments for the disease?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Yeah, really good question. And the answer is different for every agent. So I’ll try to just kind of run through the list. For the CAR T products, the three different CAR T products, it’s like a one-time treatment and then you’re done because the cells that get infused will persist in the patient’s body for months and months and months. So they’re infused and then the cells will hang around a long time acting on the cancer. So for the CAR T it’s a one-time treatment. For the bispecifics, the mosunetuzumab-axgb product is a time-limited treatment that is done in less than a year. The epcoritamab-bysp is designed to be given indefinitely.

So those are, there are some pros and cons of those two agents, the two small molecules that I mentioned, the zanubrutinib is meant to be given indefinitely and the tazemetostat is meant to be given indefinitely. And then the first one I mentioned was the lenalidomide. That is in follicular lymphoma that it was developed to be given for 12 months in this setting. So the duration of therapy is unique for each of the different agents that I mentioned.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that overview of all those emerging therapies. That’s great to know for patients, Dr. Kahl. All right. It’s that time where we answer questions we’ve received from you. Remember, as patients, we should always feel empowered to ask our healthcare providers any and all questions we might have about our treatment, our disease, and our prognosis. Please remember, however, this program is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your own medical team.

So, Dr. Kahl, we have several patients who have submitted some questions. The first question is regarding emerging technologies. And I think that you probably have answered that very well actually in a discussion here. So the second question this patient had is how might future innovations build on the latest treatments to offer even better outcomes for patients? You, I think maybe have touched on that, but maybe speak to that a little bit more as far as longer remissions. Yeah.

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Right, right. So I think right now the main emphasis in research is to take some of these really promising drugs that were developed for relapsed follicular lymphoma and do two things with them, test them in combinations in the relapse setting to see if you can make them even more active. So an example of that would be take the drug lenalidomide, which is really active in the relapse setting and pair it with the drug mosunetuzumab-axgb, which is very active in the relapse setting, and pair them together and see if you can get better results than either drug alone.

So there are studies trying to answer questions like that at this time. And then the other area of major interest is to take these promising new treatments approved in the relapse setting and test them upfront. So there are studies being literally designed right now as we speak that will test bispecific monoclonal antibodies in the frontline setting.

So patients can envision being offered a chance to have a chemo-free strategy where they’re just getting a bispecific monoclonal antibody as their initial treatment. And there are studies that will test these drugs as single agents, and there are studies that will test these drugs in combinations with other agents in the frontline setting, like lenalidomide, for example. So we have no results from any of these trials yet, but these trials are just starting to enroll patients and this could fundamentally change the way we’re managing follicular lymphoma in the future if any of these new strategies turn out to be more promising than what we have done historically.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. Okay. Another question, Dr. Kahl. How do outcomes differ for patients with relapsed/refractory disease compared to those who respond well to initial treatment?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

So that’s a really good question. And when we have a patient going through frontline treatment, we’re all really crossing our fingers that that first remission is incredibly durable. Because when the disease relapses, the remissions do tend to get shorter and shorter and shorter, which is frustrating for everybody.And so we love it when we get a nice long first remission. And in the older days when all we had to offer was chemotherapy and some different immunochemotherapy regimens, the remissions in second line and third line might be two years or one year.  It can get frustrating as you go through treatment after treatment after treatment. It’s hard on patients. The side effects start to accumulate. And that’s one of the reasons we’re so excited about all these new agents that we have for relapsed disease with the bispecifics and the CAR T products and the small molecule inhibitors like tazemetostat and zanubrutinib. Because it appears as though these remissions for relapsed disease might be getting longer than what we have seen historically. So there’s no question that dealing with relapsed follicular lymphoma is more difficult than dealing with frontline follicular lymphoma. But we’re optimistic that these newer treatments we have are improving outcomes for patients with relapsed disease.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And another question, which patients are considered the most vulnerable when it comes to follicular lymphoma and why, and what measures can be taken to better support these populations in terms of treatment and care? And I’m not sure if they’re talking about different age groups or ethnic groups or geographic groups like rural versus more urban areas, but if you can speak maybe to general terms to answer that question, that would be great.

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Yeah, right. Well, the first thing that comes to mind are older patients. Older patients are always more challenging to take through cancer therapies. The older patients are more fragile. They don’t tolerate the treatments quite as well. They don’t have the physiologic reserve. They’re more susceptible to complications and infections. So I always think when we have older patients that need treatment in follicular lymphoma, the doctor has to be extra, extra careful, sort of the Goldilocks principle. You don’t want the treatment too hot and you don’t want it too cold, too hot, it might work great, but you might get unacceptable side effects too cold, maybe no side effects, but not enough activity against the disease. So we’re always trying to get that patient the best remission we can get them, but doing the least amount of harm along the way.

So I think that takes a little bit of art, a little bit of experience to figure out how to get your older more fragile patients through follicular lymphoma therapy. And then I think the whole idea of patients who live in rural areas, that can often be challenging too, because they may be hours and hours away from medical care. So if they do have a complication of treatment, an infection, for example, it can be challenging to get them the care they need in a quick amount of time. So when I have patients who I know live way out in the country, far away from our center, I just, we always give them a card, it’s got our phone number and I’m like, you feel like something’s going wrong, call us. I don’t care if it’s 2 in the morning, you call us.

It’s not your job to figure out what’s going wrong. That’s our job. It’s just your job to describe to us what you’re experiencing and then we’ll figure out over the phone whether we want you to drive the three hours to come see us or whether we think you just need to go to the closest place, which might be 30 minutes away. So at least you’re in the hands of some medical professionals. And then they can call us with an update on what they’re noticing, what the tests are saying. So taking care of patients who live far away from the medical center poses some additional challenges.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And that’s a great takeaway for patients. If you have a question, call your provider. They can help take the stress away from making that decision yourself. 

Well, here’s a loaded question for you, Dr. Kahl. Why does relapse happen in the first place, and what are the changes in the body that signal when and if treatment is likely going to fail?

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Boy, we wish we understood why relapse happens in the first place. Last I mentioned, most of these treatments can get people into remission, which means that they can kill the vast majority of the cancer cells, maybe 99.9 percent of them, but for some patients, there’s just a few stubborn cells that remain behind. Maybe those cells are just sitting there, not growing at all, which follicular lymphoma cells can do.

And when the cells are not trying to divide, not trying to grow, they’re kind of protected from killing. They’re just sitting there doing nothing. And so we think it’s this property that how the cells kind of protect themselves. And so these rare cells that are just kind of sitting there, quiescently not growing, not dividing, these might be the cells then that just hang around for years and then contribute to that relapse five years down the road.

But I admit we don’t fully understand why one patient will relapse two years after a treatment and the next patient is still in remission 10 years later. These are things that we don’t fully understand. Every patient’s lymphoma is a little different, I’m afraid. So two people with follicular lymphoma, they don’t really have the same cancer, cancer, they are sort of like snowflakes. No two are alike. And so they can have different mutations inside the cells that’ll make the cancer behave a little differently from one patient to another. It might make it respond to treatment a little differently from one patient to another. And so what is true for one follicular lymphoma patient may not be true for another.

So if a patient’s symptoms are not being relieved, that might be a clue that the treatment isn’t working as well as we want it to. And then in some cases the only way to figure out if a treatment is working is by scanning. So we’ll have a before picture from a PET scan or a CT scan, and then we’ll take them through a few cycles of treatment, and then we’ll get another scan to prove that the treatment is working like we want it to work. And if it’s not working like we want it to work, then we’ll say, okay, this one isn’t working for you. Let’s go to the what we think is the next best option for you.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And just listening to you and hearing about all these nuances with follicular lymphoma, I would probably recommend as a patient myself with a different kind of cancer, seeking out at least a consult from somebody who specializes mostly in follicular lymphoma, at least a hematologist who can tease through some of these nuances to help you as a patient find the best treatments and therapies and quality of life. So just a little tidbit there. So, Dr. Kahl, thank you so much for being part of this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program.It’s these conversations that help patients truly empower themselves along their treatment journey. And on behalf of patients like myself and those watching, thank you for joining us, Dr. Kahl.

Dr. Brad Kahl:

Thank you for having me.

Lisa Hatfield:  

I’m Lisa Hatfield, thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network program.

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Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Treatments and Bispecific Antibodies

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Relapsed/Refractory Follicular Lymphoma Treatments and Bispecific Antibodies from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What can relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma patients expect for current and future treatment options? Expert Dr. Sameh Gaballa explains what treatments are currently available and ones that are being studied for the future.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa is a hematologist/oncologist specializing in treating lymphoid malignancies from Moffitt Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Gaballa.

See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Related Resources:

Follicular Lymphoma Monitoring and Maintenance: An Expert Weighs In

Follicular Lymphoma Monitoring and Maintenance: An Expert Weighs In

 How Can Follicular Lymphoma Treatment Side Effects Be Reduced?

 Understanding Follicular Lymphoma Disease Progression Symptoms and Monitoring

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Another patient is asking if you can speak to emerging treatment options for patients with relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah. So the field of follicular lymphoma is changing rapidly. I always tell patients that sometimes the best treatment is actually on a clinical trial because those are going to be the next generation of treatments that are going to get approved in the next few years. But right now we have the most effective therapy really is CAR T-cell therapy. CAR T-cell therapy by far is the most effective treatment we have at this time. It’s approved for patients who have had two or more lines of prior therapies. We also are investigating this. I actually have a trial here at Moffitt where we’re looking at CAR T-cell therapy as early as in the second line, in patients who have what we call the high-risk ones, the POD24. So a patient with POD24 follicular lymphoma relapsed in less than two years. We have a trial to investigate the role of CAR T-cell therapy in this setting. The other very promising group of treatments, again, is bispecific antibodies, again, currently approved in the third line, mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio).

But there are others coming up and have data on epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly), as well as a lot of other bispecifics, as well as combinations. I mean, epcoritamab-bysp has also data presented with combination with lenalidomide. And right now, the follow-up duration is not very long, but so far, it looks extremely promising with very high response rates. So those also might be coming very soon. And, of course, once something works in the relapsed/refractory setting, we start looking at earlier lines of therapy. And actually, we’re now looking at trials in the first-line setting with some of these agents as well. Tazemetostat (Tazverik) is a pill. It’s also approved in the third-line setting, but we’re also investigating it. We have a trial here where we’re looking at combining it with standard rituximab (Rituxan), lenalidomide (Revlimid), so tazemetostat plus rituximab, lenalidomide as early as in the second line. So that also is interesting. And as I mentioned before, BTK inhibitors currently being looked at in trials might also have a role in follicular lymphoma very soon.

Lisa Hatfield:

And this patient is asking about the significance of bispecific antibody treatment. And you touched on that a little bit. It looks like she’s also asking if there are specific genetic or molecular markers that can predict a patient’s response. And if I try to translate that, maybe she might be asking about targeted therapy.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, so bispecific antibodies and CAR T-cell therapy, they target something called CD, either CD19 or CD20, and that’s almost universally expressed on B cells. So most of your follicular lymphoma patients are going to be expressing CD19 or CD20. Tazemetostat is the pill that I talked about. It inhibits an enzyme called EZH2. Some patients have an EZH2 mutation where it seems to work very well. However, tazemetostat also works in patients who don’t have that mutation. So that’s why it’s not very important to check for the mutation.

It seems maybe it works better in patients who do have the mutation, but it does work as well in patients who do not have that mutation. So unlike other malignancies and other cancers, biomarkers are not yet driving a lot of our treatment decisions in follicular lymphoma as of right now.

Lisa Hatfield:

How exactly do bispecific antibodies engage the patient’s immune system to target and eliminate follicular lymphoma cells?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

So bispecific antibodies are a very interesting class of medicines. It’s an antibody that has two ends to it. So one end would target the patient’s own immune cells, meaning that they would attach the antibody to the patient’s own immune cell and then the other end of the antibody engages the cancer cell. So it’s basically hand-holding the patient’s own immune system to go and kill the cancer cell. And this is not just in lymphoma. It’s looked at in multiple myeloma as well, approved therapies there. And a lot of other cancers, we have bispecific antibodies being developed in clinical trials right now. 

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