PODCAST | Evolving Myelofibrosis Treatment Options: What You Should Know



Myelofibrosis treatment and care is evolving quickly so it’s essential to understand your options and work with your healthcare team when making treatment decisions. In this webinar, Dr. Gaby Hobbs will discusses the latest updates in research and clinical trials, the role of new and emerging myelofibrosis therapies, and shares advice for accessing quality care.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital. Learn more about Dr. Gaby Hobbs.

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Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. As patients collaborate on treatment decisions with their healthcare team, it’s important that they understand all of their options and how these options may be impacted by research developments. That’s why the Patient Empowerment Network created the Evolve Series, to arm you with the latest information and to help you feel empowered and confident during conversations about your care.  

In today’s program, we’re going to hear from an expert in the field about the evolving treatment landscape for myelofibrosis and discuss how you can play an active role in your care.  

Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining us is Dr. Gaby Hobbs. Dr. Hobbs, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Hi, how are you? Thank you so much for inviting me today. My name is Gaby Hobbs. I’m the clinical director of the leukemia service at Mass General Hospital in Boston and the director of the MPN program at MGH as well. I conduct clinical trials as well as see patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms.  

Katherine:

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. We really appreciate it.  

Dr. Hobbs:

My pleasure.  

Katherine:

Before we get into our discussion, can you share with the audience how the field of myelofibrosis has changed over the course of your career? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so it really has been a very exciting journey. So, when I was in medical school, I think that we basically had just discovered the JAK2 mutation.  

So, in the course of my own training and then my professional career, we’ve gone from myeloproliferative diseases being conditions where we really didn’t necessarily have a reason why people would get these conditions. Now not only do we know about the JAK2 mutation, but we know about many other mutations that patients can have. Then in 2011, the first JAK inhibitor was approved, ruxolitinib (Jakafi), and since then, three additional JAK inhibitors have now been approved, including pacritinib (Vonjo), fedratinib (Inrebic), and most recently, momelotinib (Ojjaara).  

So, the field has definitely advanced concretely in that regard. But we also just have much more information about how to diagnose these conditions and also how to treat them. Outside of the JAK inhibitors, we’re better at recognizing when patients need to go to get a bone marrow transplant. For example, and our outcomes with bone marrow transplantation have improved significantly. We also have many other treatment approaches that wouldn’t have existed before, and we also recognize that patients with MPNs live with a lot of symptoms. So, I think that we’re better at just the doctoring part of taking care of patients with MPN. So, definitely, the field has just really, really changed significantly in the last two decades. 

Katherine:

That sounds like it’s been a rapid change, really. There may be some confusion, Dr. Hobbs, among people wondering what is the difference between primary and secondary myelofibrosis? Could you describe the differences?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure. Great question. So, that term, primary and secondary, is actually used in medicine very frequently for the description of many conditions that are not that different. So, primary means a patient has myelofibrosis and did not have any myeloproliferative neoplasm, or MPN, before their diagnosis.  

So, they went to the doctor and the first diagnosis they received was a diagnosis of myelofibrosis. Now sometimes we suspect that a patient may have had another MPN previously, such as essential thrombocythemia or polycythemia vera, but they just weren’t diagnosed.   

What I mean by that is, you know, let’s say you meet a patient and you look through their chart and you see that five years ago or 10 years ago, they had really, really high platelets or very high red blood cell numbers. So, there you could say, well, you know, you were never diagnosed with ET or PV, but maybe you had that. So, you probably have secondary myelofibrosis, but the diagnosis, you know, that you come with to the doctor is myelofibrosis. So, secondary myelofibrosis means that you had an underlying condition before, meaning you were first diagnosed with one condition like PV, polycythemia vera, or ET, and then those conditions turned into myelofibrosis.  

And then we call that secondary myelofibrosis, meaning it is secondary to the primary condition, meaning ET or PV. One area of confusion that I’d like to be able to clarify also related to this is if a person has secondary myelofibrosis, they don’t have two myeloproliferative neoplasms or two conditions. It is one and the same. They just live on a spectrum and over time, they can turn into, one into the other. So, it’s not that you now have two diagnoses, it’s still the same condition, it’s just morphed a little.  

Katherine:

Okay, thank you for that explanation. I’d like to talk about the importance of a patient’s healthcare team. What are the benefits to seeking care with a myelofibrosis specialist, even if it’s just for a second opinion or a consultation? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Great question. I think that one thing that COVID has given us is the ability to have webinars like this, but also that you can seek second opinions more easily with the advent of telehealth.  

So, whereas before I think that getting that second opinion would have been maybe more challenging, perhaps now it’s easier. But to answer your question, these conditions are rare. Myelofibrosis in particular is even more rare than the others.  

The landscape, as I kind of alluded to in our initial question, has changed significantly in the last two decades. So, getting a second opinion, whether that’s, like you said, just for an initial consultation, and then you never see that person again. Or you end up having kind of two doctors, one that treats you for your day-to-day needs and an expert or specialist that sees you occasionally as things may change, which can be very beneficial for a variety of reasons. I think that the first one is to just hear hopefully the same information that your initial doctor gave you, but maybe from a different perspective. I think that’s always helpful when dealing with a new diagnosis.  

Second is, you know, a specialist may have access to clinical trials. Although that may not be the right thing for you when you first meet them, it may be something you would want to consider or may be appropriate for you later down in your treatment. So, being connected to somebody that has access to research is something that, you know, it opens a door.   

Katherine:

We’ve established that research in the field is moving quickly. What are new and emerging therapies that are showing promise?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so the list is long and it’s getting longer. So, in addition to the fact that we now have four JAK inhibitors approved, which is worth just remembering that, because not that long ago we only had one, and one of them was just approved less than six months ago.  There are many new agents that are being studied in combination with the JAK inhibitors. This past year at the American Society of Hematology meeting, which is the annual meeting where we go to share our research and learn from our colleagues, there were two Phase III studies that were presented at the same time.  

I can’t remember, or I don’t think, but that has really ever happened before for myelofibrosis. One of them was with an agent called pelabresib, which is a type of molecule called a BET Inhibitor. And the other one was with an agent called navitoclax, which is an agent called a BCLXL-BCL2 inhibitor, which is a molecule that helps cells to undergo apoptosis or programmed cell death.  

So, these molecules were both combined with ruxolitinib. And we saw the results of the Phase III studies for each of these agents, and they were really quite exciting. The punchline for both of these studies is that they demonstrated that when you give two drugs as opposed to just one, the amount of patients that have a significant reduction in their spleen is doubled than when you give ruxolitinib in it by itself. So, for some of our patients that is a really meaningful number. You know, if you’re a patient that suffers from a big spleen, knowing that there’s a possibility of having two drugs that you can take to really shrink that spleen in a significant way, I think is very, very promising. On the symptom front, taking two medicines versus one medicine really didn’t seem to make a huge difference. I think we can analyze this in two different ways.  

We can see the negative or the positive side of this. So, on the negative side, well, it’s too bad that, you know, added medication didn’t help patients feel better. But on the upside, it’s also good that taking two medicines didn’t make people feel worse. Sometimes you can think of, you know, if you’re taking more medication, maybe you will feel worse. So, the jury is kind of still add on the significance of those results. But regardless, without getting into too much detail about these studies, I think it’s really exciting for myelofibrosis patients to know that there are two agents that are in Phase III testing.

That means that the next step is really consideration of FDA approval. So, when medications go through clinical trials, they go through earlier phase studies, Phase I, Phase II, and then finally they get to Phase III. A lot of work and effort has gone into these two compounds to try to get them to FDA approval. So, we’ll wait and see if in the next year or so we have new agents for the treatment of MF.  

In addition to these two, which of course are the most advanced, there really are a variety of other agents that are being tested. Those, for the most part, are still in Phase II testing. And similarly to the ones I mentioned before, most of the compounds, the way that they go into trials is first they start out showing that they’re safe by themselves, and then they get added to a JAK inhibitor.

So, far, because ruxolitinib has been the one that we’ve had around for the longest, most of these studies are being tested in combination with ruxolitinib. But we start to hear rumblings from clinical trials that perhaps some of the newer trials will consider using other JAK inhibitors as combination partners, which is a natural evolution. So, to name a few other agents, we have drugs like selinexor (Xpovio), and navtemadlin we have a PIM kinase inhibitor, a lysyl oxidase inhibitor, an LSD1 inhibitor, the list is long of all these different agents.  

Preliminarily, at least from the data we’ve seen from all of these compounds, I think there’s a lot of room for excitement. We see that combining these drugs together, the new agent plus the ruxolitinib, leads to a significant reduction in the spleen. And in some of these agents, we’re starting to see other endpoints. So, in addition to just looking at can we make patients feel better and can we shrink their spleens?

We’re starting to look at other things such as when we add these medications, do we see a reduction in the scarring or the fibrosis in the bone marrow? Do we see a decrease in the cells that have the mutation? Do we see the patients live longer? All of those things are endpoints in our studies that we really haven’t tested before. So, I think the field really will produce a lot of exciting data in the next couple of years.  

Katherine:

You mentioned clinical trials, and we will talk about those in a few moments, but are there innovations in technology that are accelerating myelofibrosis research?   

Dr. Hobbs:

So, the most obvious way to answer that question is simply that it’s much easier to diagnose myelofibrosis now, thanks to the ability to do genetic testing now much more easily than before. So, I think that previously, you know, getting JAK2 testing or testing for the other mutations was not as simple or would take a long time for the results to come back.  

Now, you know, I see even in the smallest of practices, ordering not just the JAK2 gene, but ordering what many of us do, which is like a panel of genes, where you test for a lot of the genes at the same time, has become almost commonplace. So, that’s really a meaningful advance in that it’s a technology that’s available and it’s no longer as prohibitively expensive as it was before.  

That doesn’t mean that some patients don’t end up getting charged in ways that doesn’t make any sense anymore, but that’s a conversation for another time. But I think just having the ability to make those diagnoses because of how easy it is now to test for these mutations is really very meaningful.

Outside of that, I mean, I would say that along with the improvement in the knowledge of what mutations patients have with myelofibrosis, we definitely have deeper ways of analyzing what genes are being expressed and in what cells they’re being expressed to really understand, you know, when do patients first get those mutations and how do those mutations change over time. So, we’re really diving deep into the actual biology of the bone marrow and there’s some studies that have demonstrated that patients may even have the JAK-2 mutation in utero, which is really, really fascinating. So, definitely a lot more understanding of the actual biology of how these diseases happen.  

Katherine:

Dr. Hobbs, a key part of research moving forward is the clinical trial process. Can you talk about the benefits of patient participation? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so I think to answer that question, I should preface that by saying that I conduct clinical trials, and so certainly my answer is going to have that as a bias, so it’s important to know that. And I tell my patients that as well when I’m talking to them about clinical trials. Now, why do I think clinical trials are beneficial? Well, there’s really no way to advance the field without the sacrifice that patients do by allowing us to conduct clinical trials. Without clinical trials, we cannot get drugs approved. Without new drugs, we certainly can’t help our patients anymore with newer therapies. That being said, a clinical trial is something that is not just an experiment. Many times patients will be like, well, I don’t want to be a guinea pig. And I completely respect that.  

So, I think it’s really important to recognize too, that we take conducting clinical trials very, very seriously. The machinery that needs to exist in each hospital to conduct trials includes a ton of people. So, we have a lot of regulatory bodies, both within the hospital and outside of the hospital, to ensure that clinical trials are conducted in an ethical and in a safe way. So, one of the benefits, which you may not consider when you’re contemplating participating in a trial, is that your care team actually becomes much larger. You’re much more closely scrutinized actually, when you’re a member of a trial.

So, whereas before you would have just primarily seen me and my nurse practitioner, when you participate in a clinical trial, all of a sudden you have all these research nurses that are calling you, checking in with you, making sure you’re feeling well, et cetera. So, that’s actually a nice perk to participating in trials. So, an important thing to know with clinical trials is that they may not benefit everybody. 

And that not every clinical trial may be right for you and that there may be times when trials are appropriate and times where trials may not be appropriate. So, it’s not a decision that you make that’s black and white and that’s a decision that you make forever. I think it’s something that you can continue to discuss with your care team as you go through having this disease.  

Katherine:

Let’s move on to treatment. Would you provide an overview of the currently approved therapies for myelofibrosis?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure, absolutely. So, I’ve alluded to this a little bit. So, in 2011, we had the first JAK inhibitor approved called ruxolitinib, the brand name is Jakafi. After that, we had the approval of Inrebic or fedratinib and then pacritinib or VONJO, and then most recently momelotinib or Ojjaara. So, we have four different JAK inhibitors that are now approved for myelofibrosis.  

So, who needs to get a JAK inhibitor and how do we choose between the JAK inhibitors? So, the traditional indications for JAK inhibitors are, does a patient have bothersome symptoms from having a big spleen? Does a person have symptoms from their disease? Symptoms can include things like night sweats, itching, unintentional weight loss, brain fog, and fatigue. Fatigue can be challenging because of course many things can cause fatigue. But those are some of the symptoms that can occur with having this disease. So, if a patient has both splenomegaly symptoms or one or the other, they’re eligible for a JAK inhibitor.  

So, just having myelofibrosis doesn’t mean that you need to have a JAK inhibitor right away. Probably the most commonly used JAK inhibitor, and this will be the case probably for a long time, is ruxolitinib.  

The reason for that is that it’s been around for a long time, and it’s a very well-tolerated medication. Patients that have platelets that are very low, meaning platelets that are less than 50, should be considered for pacritinib first, as that’s the indication for that agent. Patients that don’t do that well on ruxolitinib initially, let’s say that the dose gets increased and the spleen and the symptoms are still present, but still have good blood counts, are good candidates for then receiving fedratinib. Fedratinib can also be given upfront. It rarely is given upfront, simply because ruxolitinib has been around for longer and it’s a better-tolerated medication. So, therefore most providers feel more comfortable giving that upfront. I have had some patients that are concerned about the weight gain that is a side effect of ruxolitinib. For those patients, I’ve occasionally considered giving fedratinib first before ruxolitinib. And then lastly, we have momelotinib. It’s approved primarily for patients with myelofibrosis and anemia.  

Now momelotinib is still a JAK inhibitor, so it can still improve symptoms, and it still improves spleen size. So, I struggle with that recommendation of just using it for anemia in patients that don’t have splenomegaly or symptoms.  

But the FDA label was pretty broad, and it’s important to recognize that. So, how is momelotinib being used? It can be used in the upfront setting for patients that have spleen and symptoms, and also anemia, meaning low red blood cell levels. Or,  it can be used for patients that have been treated with a JAK inhibitor first and then develop anemia. So, momelotinib is given to continue to improve the spleen and symptoms, but also help the anemia. So, that’s kind of like an overview of the four JAK inhibitors. Now we have a group of patients that maybe doesn’t have a lot of spleen symptoms or symptoms in general but has issues with having low hemoglobin. So, for those patients, we’ve used a variety of different medications, including medications that are called erythropoietin, which is a hormone that helps to boost the red blood cell levels.  

A medicine that’s similar to testosterone that can also help boost the red blood cell levels called danazol (Danocrine). And then there’s a medication called luspatercept-aamt (Reblozyl) that has been approved for a related condition called myelodysplastic syndrome. And in some clinics, it can be used even though it’s not approved either by itself or in combination with ruxolitinib. And then lastly, patients that have what is called high-risk myelofibrosis, meaning they have some mutations that may indicate that a patient has a higher risk of having complications of their disease, or they have very low blood counts, are usually considered high-risk. Those patients should be recommended and referred to transplantation as soon as they’re identified as having high-risk disease.  

Katherine:

When you say transplantation, you’re referring to stem cell transplant. 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yes, and I’m glad you said it that way actually. So, stem cell transplantation or bone marrow transplantation, same thing, interchangeable, same procedure. You got it.  

Katherine:

Yeah. So, where do clinical trials fit into a treatment plan? 

Dr. Hobbs:

So, it really depends on what is available at the site where you’re seeking care. Clinical trials come in a variety of different flavors. So, there may be a clinical trial for patients that are newly diagnosed, that are about to start a JAK inhibitor, for example.  

So, if you’re a patient that’s considering a JAK inhibitor to treat your spleen symptoms or your systemic symptoms, and there happens to be a clinical trial for adding on another medication, like the first JAK inhibitor you receive, well, that’s a great place to consider a clinical trial.  

There may also be clinical trials in later lines. Let’s say you were treated only with a JAK inhibitor first, but the study that’s available at your center is adding another medication to the JAK inhibitor if the JAK inhibitor by itself didn’t quite do the trick. 

There’s also other studies, for example, at the time of transplantation, for example, using the JAK inhibitors during transplant. So, really the clinical trials can be relevant at any time during treatment. In addition to clinical trials, testing new medications, there’s also other ways to participate in research throughout your time as a patient with your care team, which may include things like, for example, consenting to participate in a tissue bank.  

You donate a sample of your blood or bone marrow that is then later on used for research. Or we may have studies investigating the symptoms a patient has throughout their disease or their experience living with their disease. So, there’s many different ways of participating in research and clinical trials, even if those don’t necessarily include trying a new medication.  

Katherine:

What questions should patients be asking if they’re interested in learning more about clinical trials?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, great question. So, the first is understanding, you know, what is the medication that you will be receiving? Are you going to be receiving a placebo? Is that an option? This means a sugar pill. That’s a common question that I get. How do you get assigned to different groups? So, in one trial, there may be a group that gets one dose, another group that gets another dose, et cetera. So, it’d be important to know how are you going to get assigned and what are the options potentially for you before you sign up. After that, it’s important to know what phase the study is in.

So, is this a first-in-human study where your doctor may not be able to tell you a whole lot about what’s expected in terms of side effects or safety or toxicity? Or is this a Phase III study where maybe the trial has been open for many years and there’s been many patients that have been enrolled in it already? Or maybe this is a drug that’s already been approved for another condition and we’re borrowing it for myelofibrosis, for example, and then your care team can tell you lots of information about the safety and toxicities, etc.  

So, having a sense of where the drug is in its development, I think can be very helpful. Then there are some practical things that we sometimes do not spend enough time talking about.  

So, I’m glad to have the space to talk about that here. Participating in a clinical trial takes time. And it’ll take more time as a patient to participate in a clinical trial than to receive regular care. You may have to go to the hospital where you’re being treated more frequently. If you’re somebody that receives virtual care where some of your visits are telehealth and some of them are in person, you need to be aware that you may have more visits that are in person because the clinical trial procedure requires that certain labs or tests be done in the facility, not anywhere else. Clinical trials by definition, unfortunately, sometimes have to be very inflexible in order to ensure that we collect data in a uniform way.  

So, just being aware that it may take more time to participate is important. And along those lines, asking if the clinical trial will reimburse you for some of that time. So, for example, if you need to park in the expensive hospital parking more frequently, some trials will actually reimburse you for that. Or they may offer a hotel reimbursement if you need to travel from far away and spend a night there. So, don’t be afraid to ask those things because many times that’s built into the clinical trial.

So, that’s an important thing just practically to know. So, asking for a study calendar so you get a sense of how frequently you’ll need to be going to the doctor is really important. Also, then realizing that potentially you may have to go to see the doctor or the care team more frequently initially, but then after the first couple of months, if everything is going well, you’ll likely have the flexibility to go less often. So, all those questions are important to have in mind.  

Katherine:

That’s great information, thanks, Dr. Hobbs. When considering therapy, how do you approach a treatment plan for someone diagnosed with myelofibrosis?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Great question. So, when approaching how I care for a patient with myelofibrosis, I take several things into account. The first thing is, who is this patient? What other medical conditions do they have? How impacted are they by their myelofibrosis? Then what I like to do is to plug in the numbers of the patient, their blood work, their mutations, etcetera, into one of the many risk calculators that we have to determine what the risk of their myelofibrosis is. 

If a patient is considered high-risk, I will generally consider transplantation or discuss a referral to a bone marrow transplantation in one of our first visits, if not the first visit. After that, I need to determine whether or not the patient has symptoms from their disease, and if so, if they should receive a JAK inhibitor. Then I’ll look through their blood work, what their symptoms are to decide which JAK inhibitor to use first.  

If really the spleen and symptoms aren’t the primary issue, if it’s more related to low blood counts, then we can think about treatments directed at improving the hemoglobin, for example. There may be a group of patients that don’t actually require any treatment when I first meet them. So, just providing them with education, what to expect. Then discussing more of the psychological impact of living with a condition and approaches to handle that, maybe more the focus of my care.

And in general, for most of my patients, we also talk about the rest of the care. So, not just what the blood work is and what medicine I’m going to start them on, but also other things that they can do to take care of themselves, including making sure that they are actively monitored by their primary care doctor or by other specialists if that’s still appropriate. You know, one of the things we don’t discuss that frequently in myelofibrosis, we discuss that more often in essential thrombocythemia or polycythemia vera is a risk of blood clots.  

But the truth is that myelofibrosis patients can also have risks of blood clots. So, therefore, making sure that patients with MF that may have issues like hypertension, diabetes, high cholesterol, etc., get those well-managed is also really important to prevent them from having blood clots. So, lifestyle management is also an important part of the care of a patient with myelofibrosis. 

Katherine:

That’s all great advice. A note to our viewers, PEN has also created downloadable office visit planners to help you organize your thoughts and communicate effectively with your healthcare team. You can find those in the MPN Toolkit at powerfulpatients.org or by scanning the QR code on your screen.  

Well, it’s been a lot of great information, Dr. Hobbs, and I’d like to close with your thoughts on the future of myelofibrosis care. Where are we headed and what would you like to leave our audience with?   

Dr. Hobbs:

Well, the first thing I wanted to say is just kind of piggyback with what you said about the visit planner. I love that. I think that many times patients come to a visit and they’re like, oh, I had this question that I wanted to ask you and now I can’t remember what it was. And especially if you’re seeing a doctor every six months or something like that, making sure that you come to that visit prepared with lots of questions is an excellent way to make the most use out of your visit with your provider. So, I definitely encourage you to do that. In terms of what to leave patients with, so going back to what we were discussing initially, the list of new agents that are being investigated for myelofibrosis is long and longer by the day. So, as a myelofibrosis doctor, I really feel very optimistic that in  the next year and hopefully in the next couple of years, we’re going to have a variety of new treatment options that are going to really help our patients to live not just longer with their myelofibrosis, but truly to live much better with their myelofibrosis.  

So,  continue to get informed by watching webinars such as this one and reading reliable sources of information on different patient advocacy organizations because there’s really a lot of changes that are happening. So, I definitely think it’s a time to feel hopeful about the future of  myelofibrosis.  

Katherine:

Well, thank you so much for taking time to join us today, Dr. Hobbs, we really appreciate it.  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure, it’s always a pleasure.  

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. 

To learn more about myelofibrosis and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatiens.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us.   

PODCAST: Kidney Cancer Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Moshe Ornstein


START HERE bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients facing a kidney cancer diagnosis to feel comfortable asking precise questions of their healthcare team.

In this program, Dr. Moshe Ornstein offers invaluable insights into renal cell carcinoma (RCC), equipping newly diagnosed patients with essential information on treatment priorities, as well as strategies for managing progression and recurrence.

Download Resource Guide

See More from START HERE Renal Cell Carcinoma (RCC)

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program, where we bridge the expert and patient voice to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions for our healthcare team. The world is complicated, but understanding your kidney cancer doesn’t have to be. The goal of this program is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of treatment and survivorship. 

Joining me today is Dr. Moshe Ornstein. Dr. Ornstein is a respected kidney cancer physician and researcher from Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Ornstein’s clinical practice and research are focused on cancers of the genitourinary system, specifically kidney, bladder, and prostate cancer. He has published multiple research articles and presented his research at a variety of national medical meetings. He’s actively involved in multiple clinical trials. Dr. Ornstein, it’s such a pleasure having you today, and thank you for joining us. 

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Thanks for having me, Lisa. Pleasure to be here.

Lisa Hatfield:

So before we dive into today’s discussion, please take a moment to download the program resource guide using the QR code. This guide contains pertinent information to guide you both before and after the program. In this program, we’ll provide you with a comprehensive update on the latest kidney cancer news, and its implications for you and your family. Following that, we’ll launch into questions we have received from you.

So let’s start here. Dr. Ornstein, the treatment landscape of renal cell carcinoma, also known as kidney cancer, has evolved significantly over the past three decades, leading to improved therapeutic options and prolonged survival. That said, we also recognize that there are unmet needs to improve outcomes in kidney cancer. Today, we are privileged to have your expertise to help us decipher these developments and shed light on the advancements shaping the landscape of kidney cancer care. Dr. Ornstein, can you speak to the latest news in renal cell carcinoma?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Sure, Lisa. It’s a great question. But before I start with the most recent updates and the latest news, I just want to clarify something. I think for you, Lisa, as you say the words kidney cancer and renal cell carcinoma, it’s indeed a mouthful. And for our patients, it can be very confusing as they sometimes hear kidney cancer, they sometimes hear renal cell carcinoma, they sometimes hear RCC, and it can be really hard to digest and understand what their diagnosis is, or if they see a presentation or a talk on kidney cancer, what that means.

So kidney cancer just means any cancer that arises in the kidney. There’s lots of different types of kidney cancer. For the purposes of today’s discussion, we’re really talking about renal cell carcinoma or RCC, which is the most common type of kidney cancer. And within RCC, the most common subtype is clear cell renal cell carcinoma.

So today, when you hear us talk about kidney cancer, RCC, renal cell carcinoma, clear cell RCC, just know that we’re referring to the most common type of kidney cancer. But it is a really important thing to talk to your doctors about, and for patients to talk, and their families to talk to physicians about to understand the subtype. We’ll use colloquially kidney cancer and RCC for today’s discussion. So just by way of a 30,000 foot view, when it comes to renal cell carcinoma, approximately two-thirds of patients are diagnosed when the cancer is in a localized stage, where the cancer is treated with curative intent, generally with surgery.

For patients who present with metastatic kidney cancer,  in other words, kidney cancer that has spread beyond the kidney, or for patients who had their kidney removed and then developed a recurrence or the cancer had come back to the lungs or the bones or anywhere beyond the kidney, those patients are treated with what’s called systemic therapy. Those are medicines that really cover head to toe, not a specific area, but head to toe.

And when we think about treatment options in kidney cancer, there are two main treatment options. One is immunotherapy. Immunotherapy is generally what’s called checkpoint inhibitors. And these are therapies that “release the brakes” on the immune system, and allow the body’s immune system to be activated to target the cancer. And the other type of medicine is called targeted therapies. And these for the most part, are vascular targeted therapies, and the way I describe it is they shrink the blood supply to the tumors. So again, you have those tumors that are diagnosed at a local stage. You have those tumors that are metastatic or advanced beyond the kidney. And the main treatment paradigms have to do with immunotherapy and targeted therapy.

So we just had the ASCO GU meeting, and I just want to describe the updates and how they fit into sort of the overall treatment paradigms across the different treatment sections, in other words, localized and metastatic. So for a patient who presents and comes in with just a kidney mass, that’s a kidney cancer, generally that patient’s going to be treated with surgery.

In general, there’s no rule for therapy before surgery. For many years, for that patient who had their kidney cancer removed from the kidney, either part of the kidney or the whole kidney removed, we really didn’t know what to do with those patients, and the standard of care was just to watch those patients. And we’ll get into a discussion about what watching the patient means. But one of the updates from the recent meetings has been that for patients who have their kidney removed because of kidney cancer, there is now a rule in some patients, this has to be a discussion with the doctor, to use immunotherapy to help prevent or delay the cancer from coming back. It’s a personal discussion.

We have a lot of data to support the use of a medicine called pembrolizumab (Keytruda), which is an immunotherapy that patients would get for a year after their kidney surgery. So that’s really the big recent update in the localized kidney cancer world, where the kidney cancer has been removed by surgery, and there’s now a treatment option, a year of immunotherapy after surgery for the right patient. So now, we move to the metastatic patient.

So again, the patient who has metastatic disease, either comes in with metastatic disease upfront, meaning the kidney’s there, the tumor’s in the kidney, and there’s advanced disease. And the other type is the patient who had their kidney removed a year ago, two years ago, sometimes five years ago, and now shows up with new spots in the lungs or the bones or elsewhere in the body. And that is metastatic or advanced kidney cancer.

So by in large, the overwhelming majority, and in my clinical practice, 95 percent of these patients are going to get an immunotherapy-based regimen as the first treatment for advanced kidney cancer. And there are different types of immunotherapy-based regimens. There’s an immunotherapy in combination with immunotherapy, and that’s called ipilimumab (Yervoy) and nivolumab (Opdivo), so double immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy plus a targeted therapy.

Lisa, we spoke about the targeted therapy cutting the blood supply. So in addition to getting two immunotherapies, some patients won’t get two immunotherapies, they’ll get one immunotherapy in combination with a targeted therapy. And those combinations include axitinib (Inlyta) and pembrolizumab, lenvatinib (Lenvima) and pembrolizumab and cabozantinib (Cabometyx) and nivolumab as the primary combination treatments for the first line of therapy for metastatic kidney cancer.

And the real updates from the recent meetings in this setting is just that with additional follow-up, in other words, we’ve seen follow-up at two years after the trial started, three years, four years, now five years, we’re seeing that there’s a subset of patients that continue to benefit with this combination years down the road. So, encouraging for patients. Again, it’s not every patient, different patients need different things, but just the knowledge that we have long-term follow-up data for patients who have gotten an immunotherapy-based combination for the front-line treatment for their advanced kidney cancer.

And the last update I want to touch on is once we move beyond that first line of immunotherapy-based combinations, we really don’t know exactly what to do beyond that. Meaning, if somebody got an immunotherapy-based combination, and then the kidney cancer got worse, what do we give next? And generally, we’re giving more of these vascular inhibitors, these targeted therapies. And the latest advancement in this area, in the refractory setting, in other words post immunotherapy-based combination is the introduction of a new medicine called belzutifan (Welireg), which is not a classic vascular inhibitor, but is something called the HIF-2α inhibitor. It’s a very well-tolerated therapy in many of the patients. And it does have activity in the right patient. And it’s now FDA-approved relatively recently for patients who have already had an immunotherapy-based combination. So that’s kind of the major update.

The post-surgery treatment with immunotherapy, long-term data for immunotherapy-based combinations in the metastatic setting, and a novel therapy, a new mechanism of action with a pill with a therapy called belzutifan for patients whose kidney cancer is getting worse despite standard treatments upfront.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you so much for that outstanding overview. I had one follow-up question to that overview regarding clinical trials. So can you talk about any clinical trials you are excited about, both in the newly diagnosed setting or in the…I can’t remember what you called it, but the newly diagnosed setting and then the metastatic or recurring setting for kidney cancer, specific clinical trials, and then some of the medications that you had mentioned, are those FDA-approved right now or are those also in clinical…are most of those in clinical trials at the moment?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

A great question. I think what this goes to show is that, here I am talking to you, and sometimes some of the words are hard to understand. You can imagine a patient with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, how confusing a lot of this can be. So I’m really happy we’re having this discussion. Everything I had mentioned up until this point is FDA-approved. And if I am to mention something that is not FDA-approved, I’ll make that caveat. And while we’re talking about non-FDA-approved therapies, let’s talk about some of those new and exciting clinical trials. The way I look at clinical trials, whether it’s in the treatment naive, so a patient who has a newly diagnosed cancer, or in a patient with refractory cancer, meaning cancer that has gotten worse despite some treatment already.

So I look at clinical trials, and I tend to divide them into two different main categories. And I think for patients, this sort of helps categorize them in a neat fashion. One, is looking at those trials that are investigating novel therapies. So we spoke about those immunotherapy checkpoint inhibitors, we spoke about those vascular endothelial growth factor inhibitors, in other words, targeted therapy. We spoke about this HIF-2α, those are all therapies that we understand the mechanism of action, we understand how they work.

So one kind of clinical trial is saying, what’s next? What’s down the road? What’s not an irregular immunotherapy? What’s not a regular targeted therapy? What’s not another HIF-2α drug? What are the novel therapies being investigated? So some of those trials that I’m interested in are trials that are looking at something called bispecifics. So these are singular drugs that sort of have two different targets. We’re looking at cellular therapies. We know these things called CAR-T cells work well in some of other cancers like lymphomas, but is there a rule for using this type of novel mechanism in kidney cancer?

Drugs looking at things called antibody drug conjugates, which again, these types of therapies are available in breast cancer, in bladder cancer, in other types of cancer, but not yet in kidney cancer. And that’s kind of the one category of novel mechanisms, novel agents. That’s one class of clinical trials. And the other class of clinical trials is really sort of optimizing the drugs we already have. So we know that as a general rule, giving immunotherapy plus targeted therapy is better than giving immunotherapy alone. But what about trials looking at giving two immunotherapies plus a targeted therapy?

We know that patients either get immunotherapy and immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy and a targeted therapy. What about if we gave two immunotherapies and a targeted therapy? Can three be better than two? So there are trials both in the front-line setting and in the refractory setting, looking at these novel therapies in the one bucket. And then there are also trials looking at these combinations and different ways of mixing and matching therapies that we already have to optimize patient outcomes?

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that description of clinical trials, too. That’s very helpful.

Okay. Now it’s that time where we answer questions that we’ve received from you. Please remember that this is not a substitute for your medical care. Always consult with your medical team. So, Dr. Ornstein, how do you explain a kidney cancer diagnosis to your newly diagnosed patients, and what are the priorities for those newly diagnosed patients?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

When I’m looking at a patient and their family with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, I’m trying to think to myself a couple of things. Number one, how can I make it as easy to understand without withholding any information? How can I be as encouraging as possible, but at the same time without misleading the patient in terms of what’s to come? The way I break it down is into two main categories. There is the patient that presents with a localized kidney cancer.

So they came to the emergency room because they were having belly pain, and they were found to have a big mass growing in their kidney that is proven to be kidney cancer. And then there’s the patient who has advanced disease, metastatic disease that has spread beyond the kidney. Either they came in with metastatic disease, in other words, their kidneys in place, and they have cancer beyond the kidney. Or they already had a surgery a year or two ago, and now they come back, and the cancer has returned elsewhere in the body.

So for the patient that comes with a localized kidney cancer or kidney cancer limited to the kidney, I talk to them about what the diagnosis means in terms of what subtype of kidney cancer is it, meaning although most kidney cancers are clear cell renal cell carcinoma, there are other types of kidney cancer. And I want them to have a good handle in terms of what they have, both so that they know and they have all the information they need, but also because I understand that most patients, or at least many patients are going to look for more information elsewhere.  And without understanding the histology, the type of kidney cancer they actually have, I worry that they’re not going to get the right information. So I try to be very clear about what stage is it based on the scans or if they’re coming to see me after their surgery, what stage is it after the surgery?

What does it mean when something is a grade 1 versus a grade 2 versus a grade 3 in terms of what the cells look like under the microscope? That’s about the cancer. And then I talk to them about what we’re going to look for in the future. So again, we’re talking now about the patient with localized kidney cancer. I try to go through with them what the risk of that localized cancer is in terms of what the odds are of it coming back. We talk about what kind of surveillance, what kind of watching or monitoring of the cancer are we going to do, how often they’re going to get CAT scans.

So really try to give them the big picture about what cancer they have, what the outlook is, and what we’re going to do to keep a close eye on them. For the patient who has an advanced cancer, in some ways it’s similar. When I say advanced, I mean a cancer that has spread beyond the kidney that’s going to require therapy, immunotherapy, targeted therapy, a clinical trial, whatever it might be.

And again, super important for them to understand, is this a clear cell kidney cancer? Which is the most common? Is it a papillary kidney cancer? Is it something else? Then we talk about what the different treatment options are. What does the short term look like in terms of side effects? What does the short term look like in terms of getting the cancer under control? What does the long-term outlook look like? What are the possible long-term side effects? And then what are we going to do to monitor? Are we doing CAT scans? Are we doing MRIs? Are we doing imaging of their brain?

So again, first and foremost, what’s the nature of the diagnosis, what the treatment options are and likely side effects, what they need to look out for, and then how we as a medical team are going to monitor this over hopefully the long run.

Lisa Hatfield:

We have a patient asking if you can speak to a typical patient history associated with kidney cancer and is there a common factor, or I think that they’re asking is there a cause that you see frequently for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

Yeah, this is such a common question, Lisa, because patients want to know I have this cancer, what caused it? And generally, we just don’t know the answer to that. And I tell that to patients, it’s generally not something that somebody did that caused this kidney cancer. We do have known risk factors for kidney cancer, whether it’s obesity, smoking, high blood pressure, chronic kidney disease. So there are certain risk factors and associations, but it’s really difficult for a specific patient to be able to pinpoint this caused the kidney cancer. And I think it’s reassuring for patients to know that as a general rule, it’s not something that a patient did that caused the kidney cancer, and it’s not somebody’s fault that they have the kidney cancer.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. What is hereditary renal cell carcinoma, and can you speak to the instance that you’ve seen in your practice? And third part of that question is, how can I protect my family?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

It’s a loaded question, Lisa. And the truth is, you know, patients come in and many patients are not concerned about their well-being, they’re more concerned about their family, and they want to know, “Is this something that’s going to impact my children? Do my children need to be screened for kidney cancer at an earlier age or screened at all?” Because generally we don’t screen people for kidney cancer. 90+, maybe even as high as 95 percent of kidney cancer is what’s called sporadic.

In other words, it just comes out of the blue. I tell patients in some ways it’s just bad luck. It’s not anything they did. It’s not something that they got a gene from their mother or father that caused it, and it’s not something that they’re going to pass down to their children. There’s a very small percentage, maybe about 5 percent or so of kidney cancer that’s hereditary, that does have, you know, a genetic association. That is something that they can potentially pass down, and they may have received that gene from a parent.

It’s exceedingly rare. We think about VHL syndrome, we think about something called hereditary papillary, tuberous sclerosis complex, Birt-Hogg-Dubé, but the overwhelming majority are sporadic, not associated with any specific gene in terms of a gene passed down from parent to child. What I would say is when I start to think about an inherited kidney cancer, I’m thinking more about a very young patient who comes in with kidney cancer, where we don’t expect young patients generally to have kidney cancer, or a patient who shows up with kidney cancer that’s in both of the kidneys. So there are certain unusual features that would lead a doctor to think about a hereditary or genetically associated kidney cancer. But overwhelmingly, it’s sporadic. Children are not necessarily at a higher risk, don’t need to be screened. But for these small features we do in clinic, keep an eye out for that.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So when you have a patient who comes in with those more unusual presentations, do you recommend that they get some type of genetic testing done, so they can be aware for their family members that maybe they should be screened?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there’s an unusual feature, either a feature associated with tuberous sclerosis complex or something called Birt-Hogg-Dubé, or a young patient with advanced kidney cancer where we don’t expect it, or a patient that shows up with cancer in both of their kidneys and nowhere else, that will trigger us to send the patient to a genetic counselor to do a more thorough family history and talk about what they might be looking for in terms of genetic testing.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. All right. Another person watching is asking, are there known occupational exposure risk factors for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

This is a great question. You know, we know that with certain cancers, there are classic occupational exposure risks. People want to know, “If I worked in a coal mine, am I more likely to get this kind of kidney cancer? What if I’m a Vietnam veteran and I was exposed to Agent Orange, is this more likely?” Really difficult to find those associations.

I would say that probably the biggest ones are going to be, again, smoking, which I don’t know is so much an occupational hazard, although secondhand smoke is a real risk factor for cancers. Asbestos. So people who worked around a lot of asbestos, that can be a risk factor even for kidney cancer. I know we usually think about it as lung cancer mesothelioma, but definitely for kidney cancer as well in some studies. And then certain forms of gasoline exposure. I will tell you that I’ve taken care of a lot of patients and a lot of people who have kidney cancer and have never been able to isolate an occupational exposure. But looking in the literature, we’re really looking more for asbestos, certain gasoline, secondhand smoke, things like that.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Okay. Thank you. Another patient is asking if there are any specific diets or diet recommendations for kidney cancer patients, especially as they relate to managing side effects of the treatment.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

We get asked all the time. And my general answer that I give, and again it’s sort of tongue in cheek, is I tell the patients the same diet that I should be following is the diet that I would recommend to you. I tell patients it’s a well-balanced diet, the right amount of carbs, the right amount of protein, the right amount of Snicker bars. I’m not a get rid of all your sugar or don’t drink any caffeine person. So I think in terms of sort of being data-driven, I would say a generally well-balanced diet.

However, some of these therapies, particularly the TKIs can cause diarrhea. They can cause mouth sores, they might change how you feel. So even though a well-balanced diet is great, we also encourage patients and empower them and their families to follow a diet that’s going to sit well with them given the therapy that they’re on.

So I care about diet much less in the sense of how’s the diet going to affect the cancer and the long-term outcome, and much more in eat the foods that your body will accept. If your body is tolerating more pasta now than it did before, because that helps your gut and therefore you’re able to stay on therapy, wonderful. If you’ve become more of a protein person because that doesn’t instigate the diarrhea, also great. If you need food that has more salt or less spice because of how your mouth feels because of the therapy, then that’s what you need to eat. So really to pay attention to their own bodies and know that whatever they fall on in terms of their diet, again, taking the extremes out of the equation, it’s okay.

Lisa Hatifeld:

You’ve made a lot of patients happy with that response. Thank you.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

I think I may have made a lot of spouses unhappy. But again, I think it’s important to work as a team with the medical team and with family.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Great. Thank you. One last question. A patient is asking, “I’m newly diagnosed and my stage of kidney cancer is unclear as I wait for further review. What questions should I be asking my team? It’s very scary to know you have cancer, but unclear of how serious.”

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

The first thing I would tell this patient is, it’s okay to be scared. And there’s no right or wrong way to feel while you’re waiting for the uncertainty to be settled. Some people have trouble sleeping, some people cry, some people shy away from interacting with their friends and loved ones. And there’s no right and wrong way to respond.

Once you’re comfortable, once a patient is comfortable saying, however I feel emotionally is okay, now we can talk about what you should be asking and what they should be asking. I always try to frame it as what am I looking for in the short term, and what am I looking for in the long term? And I think it’s important to ask the team, ‘Is this cancer something that we’re going to treat with a goal of eliminating it, or is this cancer something that I’m more likely to be on therapy for the long term?”

Again, a short-term question and a long-term question, and the team can give a general overview. I think it’s okay for a doctor to say, I don’t know, or I don’t know yet. I think if you have a doctor that says that, you’re probably very lucky because they’re comfortable being honest and telling you what they know and what they don’t know and what they’re going to do to get the information.

So I would say the questions to ask are, “What’s the next step in the investigations, whether it’s additional scans or additional biopsies? What are the chances that this is something that’s only going to be a short-term issue, and what are the chances that this is something that I’m looking at sort of a chronic condition for the long term?”

Lisa Hatifeld:  

Great. Thank you so much for that answer and showing compassion when you answered that question too. That’s a difficult diagnosis to receive. So thank you for that.

Dr. Ornstein, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and expertise. On behalf of all patients, including myself, a cancer patient, we’re so thankful for the opportunity to listen to your answers, for you to let us ask questions. So we appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yep. Really my pleasure to be here and thanks so much for the opportunity.

Expert Insights into Kidney Cancer Risk Factors and Genetic Testing

Expert Insights into Kidney Cancer Risk Factors and Genetic Testing from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What is known about kidney cancer risk factors and genetic testing? Expert Dr. Moshe Ornstein from Cleveland Clinic explains known risk factors for kidney cancer and situations when he recommends genetic testing for patients.

Download Resource Guide

See More from START HERE Renal Cell Carcinoma (RCC)

Related Resources:

How Is Advanced Renal Cell Carcinoma Patient Care Managed?

How Is Advanced Renal Cell Carcinoma Patient Care Managed?

Exploring Renal Cell Carcinoma Research | Expert Insights on Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy

Exploring Renal Cell Carcinoma Research | Expert Insights on Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy

Renal Cell Carcinoma Clinical Trials | A Deep Dive into the Latest Advancements

Renal Cell Carcinoma Clinical Trials | A Deep Dive into the Latest Advancements

Transcript: 

Lisa Hatfield:

We have a patient asking if you can speak to a typical patient history associated with kidney cancer and is there a common factor, or I think that they’re asking is there a cause that you see frequently for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yeah, this is such a common question, Lisa, because patients want to know I have this cancer, what caused it? And generally, we just don’t know the answer to that. And I tell that to patients, it’s generally not something that somebody did that caused this kidney cancer. We do have known risk factors for kidney cancer, whether it’s obesity, smoking, high blood pressure, chronic kidney disease. So there are certain risk factors and associations, but it’s really difficult for a specific patient to be able to pinpoint this caused the kidney cancer. And I think it’s reassuring for patients to know that as a general rule, it’s not something that a patient did that caused the kidney cancer, and it’s not somebody’s fault that they have the kidney cancer.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So when you have a patient who comes in with those more unusual presentations, do you recommend that they get some type of genetic testing done, so they can be aware for their family members that maybe they should be screened?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there’s an unusual feature, either a feature associated with tuberous sclerosis complex or something called Birt-Hogg-Dubé, or a young patient with advanced kidney cancer where we don’t expect it, or a patient that shows up with cancer in both of their kidneys and nowhere else, that will trigger us to send the patient to a genetic counselor to do a more thorough family history and talk about what they might be looking for in terms of genetic testing.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. All right. Another person watching is asking, are there known occupational exposure risk factors for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

This is a great question. You know, we know that with certain cancers, there are classic occupational exposure risks. People want to know, “If I worked in a coal mine, am I more likely to get this kind of kidney cancer? What if I’m a Vietnam veteran and I was exposed to Agent Orange, is this more likely?” Really difficult to find those associations. I would say that probably the biggest ones are going to be, again, smoking, which I don’t know is so much an occupational hazard, although secondhand smoke is a real risk factor for cancers. Asbestos.

So people who worked around a lot of asbestos, that can be a risk factor even for kidney cancer. I know we usually think about it as lung cancer mesothelioma, but definitely for kidney cancer as well in some studies. And then certain forms of gasoline exposure. I will tell you that I’ve taken care of a lot of patients and a lot of people who have kidney cancer and have never been able to isolate an occupational exposure. But looking in the literature, we’re really looking more for asbestos, certain gasoline, secondhand smoke, things like that.


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Kidney Cancer Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Moshe Ornstein

Kidney Cancer Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Moshe Ornstein from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

START HERE bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients facing a kidney cancer diagnosis to feel comfortable asking precise questions of their healthcare team.

In this program, Dr. Moshe Ornstein offers invaluable insights into renal cell carcinoma (RCC), equipping newly diagnosed patients with essential information on treatment priorities, as well as strategies for managing progression and recurrence.

Download Resource Guide

See More from START HERE Renal Cell Carcinoma (RCC)

Related Resources:

Exploring Renal Cell Carcinoma Research | Expert Insights on Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy

Exploring Renal Cell Carcinoma Research | Expert Insights on Immunotherapy and Targeted Therapy

Renal Cell Carcinoma Clinical Trials | A Deep Dive into the Latest Advancements

Renal Cell Carcinoma Clinical Trials | A Deep Dive into the Latest Advancements

Diagnosed with Renal Cell Carcinoma? Start Here

Diagnosed with Renal Cell Carcinoma? Start Here

Transcript: 

Lisa Hatfield:

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program, where we bridge the expert and patient voice to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions for our healthcare team. The world is complicated, but understanding your kidney cancer doesn’t have to be. The goal of this program is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of treatment and survivorship. 

Joining me today is Dr. Moshe Ornstein. Dr. Ornstein is a respected kidney cancer physician and researcher from Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Ornstein’s clinical practice and research are focused on cancers of the genitourinary system, specifically kidney, bladder, and prostate cancer. He has published multiple research articles and presented his research at a variety of national medical meetings. He’s actively involved in multiple clinical trials. Dr. Ornstein, it’s such a pleasure having you today, and thank you for joining us. 

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Thanks for having me, Lisa. Pleasure to be here.

Lisa Hatfield:

So before we dive into today’s discussion, please take a moment to download the program resource guide using the QR code. This guide contains pertinent information to guide you both before and after the program. In this program, we’ll provide you with a comprehensive update on the latest kidney cancer news, and its implications for you and your family. Following that, we’ll launch into questions we have received from you.

So let’s start here. Dr. Ornstein, the treatment landscape of renal cell carcinoma, also known as kidney cancer, has evolved significantly over the past three decades, leading to improved therapeutic options and prolonged survival. That said, we also recognize that there are unmet needs to improve outcomes in kidney cancer. Today, we are privileged to have your expertise to help us decipher these developments and shed light on the advancements shaping the landscape of kidney cancer care. Dr. Ornstein, can you speak to the latest news in renal cell carcinoma?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Sure, Lisa. It’s a great question. But before I start with the most recent updates and the latest news, I just want to clarify something. I think for you, Lisa, as you say the words kidney cancer and renal cell carcinoma, it’s indeed a mouthful. And for our patients, it can be very confusing as they sometimes hear kidney cancer, they sometimes hear renal cell carcinoma, they sometimes hear RCC, and it can be really hard to digest and understand what their diagnosis is, or if they see a presentation or a talk on kidney cancer, what that means.

So kidney cancer just means any cancer that arises in the kidney. There’s lots of different types of kidney cancer. For the purposes of today’s discussion, we’re really talking about renal cell carcinoma or RCC, which is the most common type of kidney cancer. And within RCC, the most common subtype is clear cell renal cell carcinoma.

So today, when you hear us talk about kidney cancer, RCC, renal cell carcinoma, clear cell RCC, just know that we’re referring to the most common type of kidney cancer. But it is a really important thing to talk to your doctors about, and for patients to talk, and their families to talk to physicians about to understand the subtype. We’ll use colloquially kidney cancer and RCC for today’s discussion. So just by way of a 30,000 foot view, when it comes to renal cell carcinoma, approximately two-thirds of patients are diagnosed when the cancer is in a localized stage, where the cancer is treated with curative intent, generally with surgery.

For patients who present with metastatic kidney cancer,  in other words, kidney cancer that has spread beyond the kidney, or for patients who had their kidney removed and then developed a recurrence or the cancer had come back to the lungs or the bones or anywhere beyond the kidney, those patients are treated with what’s called systemic therapy. Those are medicines that really cover head to toe, not a specific area, but head to toe.

And when we think about treatment options in kidney cancer, there are two main treatment options. One is immunotherapy. Immunotherapy is generally what’s called checkpoint inhibitors. And these are therapies that “release the brakes” on the immune system, and allow the body’s immune system to be activated to target the cancer. And the other type of medicine is called targeted therapies. And these for the most part, are vascular targeted therapies, and the way I describe it is they shrink the blood supply to the tumors. So again, you have those tumors that are diagnosed at a local stage. You have those tumors that are metastatic or advanced beyond the kidney. And the main treatment paradigms have to do with immunotherapy and targeted therapy.

So we just had the ASCO GU meeting, and I just want to describe the updates and how they fit into sort of the overall treatment paradigms across the different treatment sections, in other words, localized and metastatic. So for a patient who presents and comes in with just a kidney mass, that’s a kidney cancer, generally that patient’s going to be treated with surgery.

In general, there’s no rule for therapy before surgery. For many years, for that patient who had their kidney cancer removed from the kidney, either part of the kidney or the whole kidney removed, we really didn’t know what to do with those patients, and the standard of care was just to watch those patients. And we’ll get into a discussion about what watching the patient means. But one of the updates from the recent meetings has been that for patients who have their kidney removed because of kidney cancer, there is now a rule in some patients, this has to be a discussion with the doctor, to use immunotherapy to help prevent or delay the cancer from coming back. It’s a personal discussion.

We have a lot of data to support the use of a medicine called pembrolizumab (Keytruda), which is an immunotherapy that patients would get for a year after their kidney surgery. So that’s really the big recent update in the localized kidney cancer world, where the kidney cancer has been removed by surgery, and there’s now a treatment option, a year of immunotherapy after surgery for the right patient. So now, we move to the metastatic patient.

So again, the patient who has metastatic disease, either comes in with metastatic disease upfront, meaning the kidney’s there, the tumor’s in the kidney, and there’s advanced disease. And the other type is the patient who had their kidney removed a year ago, two years ago, sometimes five years ago, and now shows up with new spots in the lungs or the bones or elsewhere in the body. And that is metastatic or advanced kidney cancer.

So by in large, the overwhelming majority, and in my clinical practice, 95 percent of these patients are going to get an immunotherapy-based regimen as the first treatment for advanced kidney cancer. And there are different types of immunotherapy-based regimens. There’s an immunotherapy in combination with immunotherapy, and that’s called ipilimumab (Yervoy) and nivolumab (Opdivo), so double immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy plus a targeted therapy.

Lisa, we spoke about the targeted therapy cutting the blood supply. So in addition to getting two immunotherapies, some patients won’t get two immunotherapies, they’ll get one immunotherapy in combination with a targeted therapy. And those combinations include axitinib (Inlyta) and pembrolizumab, lenvatinib (Lenvima) and pembrolizumab and cabozantinib (Cabometyx) and nivolumab as the primary combination treatments for the first line of therapy for metastatic kidney cancer.

And the real updates from the recent meetings in this setting is just that with additional follow-up, in other words, we’ve seen follow-up at two years after the trial started, three years, four years, now five years, we’re seeing that there’s a subset of patients that continue to benefit with this combination years down the road. So, encouraging for patients. Again, it’s not every patient, different patients need different things, but just the knowledge that we have long-term follow-up data for patients who have gotten an immunotherapy-based combination for the front-line treatment for their advanced kidney cancer.

And the last update I want to touch on is once we move beyond that first line of immunotherapy-based combinations, we really don’t know exactly what to do beyond that. Meaning, if somebody got an immunotherapy-based combination, and then the kidney cancer got worse, what do we give next? And generally, we’re giving more of these vascular inhibitors, these targeted therapies. And the latest advancement in this area, in the refractory setting, in other words post immunotherapy-based combination is the introduction of a new medicine called belzutifan (Welireg), which is not a classic vascular inhibitor, but is something called the HIF-2α inhibitor. It’s a very well-tolerated therapy in many of the patients. And it does have activity in the right patient. And it’s now FDA-approved relatively recently for patients who have already had an immunotherapy-based combination. So that’s kind of the major update.

The post-surgery treatment with immunotherapy, long-term data for immunotherapy-based combinations in the metastatic setting, and a novel therapy, a new mechanism of action with a pill with a therapy called belzutifan for patients whose kidney cancer is getting worse despite standard treatments upfront.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you so much for that outstanding overview. I had one follow-up question to that overview regarding clinical trials. So can you talk about any clinical trials you are excited about, both in the newly diagnosed setting or in the…I can’t remember what you called it, but the newly diagnosed setting and then the metastatic or recurring setting for kidney cancer, specific clinical trials, and then some of the medications that you had mentioned, are those FDA-approved right now or are those also in clinical…are most of those in clinical trials at the moment?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

A great question. I think what this goes to show is that, here I am talking to you, and sometimes some of the words are hard to understand. You can imagine a patient with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, how confusing a lot of this can be. So I’m really happy we’re having this discussion. Everything I had mentioned up until this point is FDA-approved. And if I am to mention something that is not FDA-approved, I’ll make that caveat. And while we’re talking about non-FDA-approved therapies, let’s talk about some of those new and exciting clinical trials. The way I look at clinical trials, whether it’s in the treatment naive, so a patient who has a newly diagnosed cancer, or in a patient with refractory cancer, meaning cancer that has gotten worse despite some treatment already.

So I look at clinical trials, and I tend to divide them into two different main categories. And I think for patients, this sort of helps categorize them in a neat fashion. One, is looking at those trials that are investigating novel therapies. So we spoke about those immunotherapy checkpoint inhibitors, we spoke about those vascular endothelial growth factor inhibitors, in other words, targeted therapy. We spoke about this HIF-2α, those are all therapies that we understand the mechanism of action, we understand how they work.

So one kind of clinical trial is saying, what’s next? What’s down the road? What’s not an irregular immunotherapy? What’s not a regular targeted therapy? What’s not another HIF-2α drug? What are the novel therapies being investigated? So some of those trials that I’m interested in are trials that are looking at something called bispecifics. So these are singular drugs that sort of have two different targets. We’re looking at cellular therapies. We know these things called CAR-T cells work well in some of other cancers like lymphomas, but is there a rule for using this type of novel mechanism in kidney cancer?

Drugs looking at things called antibody drug conjugates, which again, these types of therapies are available in breast cancer, in bladder cancer, in other types of cancer, but not yet in kidney cancer. And that’s kind of the one category of novel mechanisms, novel agents. That’s one class of clinical trials. And the other class of clinical trials is really sort of optimizing the drugs we already have. So we know that as a general rule, giving immunotherapy plus targeted therapy is better than giving immunotherapy alone. But what about trials looking at giving two immunotherapies plus a targeted therapy?

We know that patients either get immunotherapy and immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy and a targeted therapy. What about if we gave two immunotherapies and a targeted therapy? Can three be better than two? So there are trials both in the front-line setting and in the refractory setting, looking at these novel therapies in the one bucket. And then there are also trials looking at these combinations and different ways of mixing and matching therapies that we already have to optimize patient outcomes?

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that description of clinical trials, too. That’s very helpful.

Okay. Now it’s that time where we answer questions that we’ve received from you. Please remember that this is not a substitute for your medical care. Always consult with your medical team. So, Dr. Ornstein, how do you explain a kidney cancer diagnosis to your newly diagnosed patients, and what are the priorities for those newly diagnosed patients?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

When I’m looking at a patient and their family with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, I’m trying to think to myself a couple of things. Number one, how can I make it as easy to understand without withholding any information? How can I be as encouraging as possible, but at the same time without misleading the patient in terms of what’s to come? The way I break it down is into two main categories. There is the patient that presents with a localized kidney cancer.

So they came to the emergency room because they were having belly pain, and they were found to have a big mass growing in their kidney that is proven to be kidney cancer. And then there’s the patient who has advanced disease, metastatic disease that has spread beyond the kidney. Either they came in with metastatic disease, in other words, their kidneys in place, and they have cancer beyond the kidney. Or they already had a surgery a year or two ago, and now they come back, and the cancer has returned elsewhere in the body.

So for the patient that comes with a localized kidney cancer or kidney cancer limited to the kidney, I talk to them about what the diagnosis means in terms of what subtype of kidney cancer is it, meaning although most kidney cancers are clear cell renal cell carcinoma, there are other types of kidney cancer. And I want them to have a good handle in terms of what they have, both so that they know and they have all the information they need, but also because I understand that most patients, or at least many patients are going to look for more information elsewhere.  And without understanding the histology, the type of kidney cancer they actually have, I worry that they’re not going to get the right information. So I try to be very clear about what stage is it based on the scans or if they’re coming to see me after their surgery, what stage is it after the surgery?

What does it mean when something is a grade 1 versus a grade 2 versus a grade 3 in terms of what the cells look like under the microscope? That’s about the cancer. And then I talk to them about what we’re going to look for in the future. So again, we’re talking now about the patient with localized kidney cancer. I try to go through with them what the risk of that localized cancer is in terms of what the odds are of it coming back. We talk about what kind of surveillance, what kind of watching or monitoring of the cancer are we going to do, how often they’re going to get CAT scans.

So really try to give them the big picture about what cancer they have, what the outlook is, and what we’re going to do to keep a close eye on them. For the patient who has an advanced cancer, in some ways it’s similar. When I say advanced, I mean a cancer that has spread beyond the kidney that’s going to require therapy, immunotherapy, targeted therapy, a clinical trial, whatever it might be.

And again, super important for them to understand, is this a clear cell kidney cancer? Which is the most common? Is it a papillary kidney cancer? Is it something else? Then we talk about what the different treatment options are. What does the short term look like in terms of side effects? What does the short term look like in terms of getting the cancer under control? What does the long-term outlook look like? What are the possible long-term side effects? And then what are we going to do to monitor? Are we doing CAT scans? Are we doing MRIs? Are we doing imaging of their brain?

So again, first and foremost, what’s the nature of the diagnosis, what the treatment options are and likely side effects, what they need to look out for, and then how we as a medical team are going to monitor this over hopefully the long run.

Lisa Hatfield:

We have a patient asking if you can speak to a typical patient history associated with kidney cancer and is there a common factor, or I think that they’re asking is there a cause that you see frequently for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

Yeah, this is such a common question, Lisa, because patients want to know I have this cancer, what caused it? And generally, we just don’t know the answer to that. And I tell that to patients, it’s generally not something that somebody did that caused this kidney cancer. We do have known risk factors for kidney cancer, whether it’s obesity, smoking, high blood pressure, chronic kidney disease. So there are certain risk factors and associations, but it’s really difficult for a specific patient to be able to pinpoint this caused the kidney cancer. And I think it’s reassuring for patients to know that as a general rule, it’s not something that a patient did that caused the kidney cancer, and it’s not somebody’s fault that they have the kidney cancer.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. What is hereditary renal cell carcinoma, and can you speak to the instance that you’ve seen in your practice? And third part of that question is, how can I protect my family?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

It’s a loaded question, Lisa. And the truth is, you know, patients come in and many patients are not concerned about their well-being, they’re more concerned about their family, and they want to know, “Is this something that’s going to impact my children? Do my children need to be screened for kidney cancer at an earlier age or screened at all?” Because generally we don’t screen people for kidney cancer. 90+, maybe even as high as 95 percent of kidney cancer is what’s called sporadic.

In other words, it just comes out of the blue. I tell patients in some ways it’s just bad luck. It’s not anything they did. It’s not something that they got a gene from their mother or father that caused it, and it’s not something that they’re going to pass down to their children. There’s a very small percentage, maybe about 5 percent or so of kidney cancer that’s hereditary, that does have, you know, a genetic association. That is something that they can potentially pass down, and they may have received that gene from a parent.

It’s exceedingly rare. We think about VHL syndrome, we think about something called hereditary papillary, tuberous sclerosis complex, Birt-Hogg-Dubé, but the overwhelming majority are sporadic, not associated with any specific gene in terms of a gene passed down from parent to child. What I would say is when I start to think about an inherited kidney cancer, I’m thinking more about a very young patient who comes in with kidney cancer, where we don’t expect young patients generally to have kidney cancer, or a patient who shows up with kidney cancer that’s in both of the kidneys. So there are certain unusual features that would lead a doctor to think about a hereditary or genetically associated kidney cancer. But overwhelmingly, it’s sporadic. Children are not necessarily at a higher risk, don’t need to be screened. But for these small features we do in clinic, keep an eye out for that.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So when you have a patient who comes in with those more unusual presentations, do you recommend that they get some type of genetic testing done, so they can be aware for their family members that maybe they should be screened?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there’s an unusual feature, either a feature associated with tuberous sclerosis complex or something called Birt-Hogg-Dubé, or a young patient with advanced kidney cancer where we don’t expect it, or a patient that shows up with cancer in both of their kidneys and nowhere else, that will trigger us to send the patient to a genetic counselor to do a more thorough family history and talk about what they might be looking for in terms of genetic testing.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. All right. Another person watching is asking, are there known occupational exposure risk factors for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

This is a great question. You know, we know that with certain cancers, there are classic occupational exposure risks. People want to know, “If I worked in a coal mine, am I more likely to get this kind of kidney cancer? What if I’m a Vietnam veteran and I was exposed to Agent Orange, is this more likely?” Really difficult to find those associations.

I would say that probably the biggest ones are going to be, again, smoking, which I don’t know is so much an occupational hazard, although secondhand smoke is a real risk factor for cancers. Asbestos. So people who worked around a lot of asbestos, that can be a risk factor even for kidney cancer. I know we usually think about it as lung cancer mesothelioma, but definitely for kidney cancer as well in some studies. And then certain forms of gasoline exposure. I will tell you that I’ve taken care of a lot of patients and a lot of people who have kidney cancer and have never been able to isolate an occupational exposure. But looking in the literature, we’re really looking more for asbestos, certain gasoline, secondhand smoke, things like that.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Okay. Thank you. Another patient is asking if there are any specific diets or diet recommendations for kidney cancer patients, especially as they relate to managing side effects of the treatment.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

We get asked all the time. And my general answer that I give, and again it’s sort of tongue in cheek, is I tell the patients the same diet that I should be following is the diet that I would recommend to you. I tell patients it’s a well-balanced diet, the right amount of carbs, the right amount of protein, the right amount of Snicker bars. I’m not a get rid of all your sugar or don’t drink any caffeine person. So I think in terms of sort of being data-driven, I would say a generally well-balanced diet.

However, some of these therapies, particularly the TKIs can cause diarrhea. They can cause mouth sores, they might change how you feel. So even though a well-balanced diet is great, we also encourage patients and empower them and their families to follow a diet that’s going to sit well with them given the therapy that they’re on.

So I care about diet much less in the sense of how’s the diet going to affect the cancer and the long-term outcome, and much more in eat the foods that your body will accept. If your body is tolerating more pasta now than it did before, because that helps your gut and therefore you’re able to stay on therapy, wonderful. If you’ve become more of a protein person because that doesn’t instigate the diarrhea, also great. If you need food that has more salt or less spice because of how your mouth feels because of the therapy, then that’s what you need to eat. So really to pay attention to their own bodies and know that whatever they fall on in terms of their diet, again, taking the extremes out of the equation, it’s okay.

Lisa Hatifeld:

You’ve made a lot of patients happy with that response. Thank you.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

I think I may have made a lot of spouses unhappy. But again, I think it’s important to work as a team with the medical team and with family.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Great. Thank you. One last question. A patient is asking, “I’m newly diagnosed and my stage of kidney cancer is unclear as I wait for further review. What questions should I be asking my team? It’s very scary to know you have cancer, but unclear of how serious.”

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

The first thing I would tell this patient is, it’s okay to be scared. And there’s no right or wrong way to feel while you’re waiting for the uncertainty to be settled. Some people have trouble sleeping, some people cry, some people shy away from interacting with their friends and loved ones. And there’s no right and wrong way to respond.

Once you’re comfortable, once a patient is comfortable saying, however I feel emotionally is okay, now we can talk about what you should be asking and what they should be asking. I always try to frame it as what am I looking for in the short term, and what am I looking for in the long term? And I think it’s important to ask the team, ‘Is this cancer something that we’re going to treat with a goal of eliminating it, or is this cancer something that I’m more likely to be on therapy for the long term?”

Again, a short-term question and a long-term question, and the team can give a general overview. I think it’s okay for a doctor to say, I don’t know, or I don’t know yet. I think if you have a doctor that says that, you’re probably very lucky because they’re comfortable being honest and telling you what they know and what they don’t know and what they’re going to do to get the information.

So I would say the questions to ask are, “What’s the next step in the investigations, whether it’s additional scans or additional biopsies? What are the chances that this is something that’s only going to be a short-term issue, and what are the chances that this is something that I’m looking at sort of a chronic condition for the long term?”

Lisa Hatifeld:  

Great. Thank you so much for that answer and showing compassion when you answered that question too. That’s a difficult diagnosis to receive. So thank you for that.

Dr. Ornstein, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and expertise. On behalf of all patients, including myself, a cancer patient, we’re so thankful for the opportunity to listen to your answers, for you to let us ask questions. So we appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yep. Really my pleasure to be here and thanks so much for the opportunity.


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