PODCAST | Evolving Myelofibrosis Treatment Options: What You Should Know

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Myelofibrosis treatment and care is evolving quickly so it’s essential to understand your options and work with your healthcare team when making treatment decisions. In this webinar, Dr. Gaby Hobbs will discusses the latest updates in research and clinical trials, the role of new and emerging myelofibrosis therapies, and shares advice for accessing quality care.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital. Learn more about Dr. Gaby Hobbs.

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Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. As patients collaborate on treatment decisions with their healthcare team, it’s important that they understand all of their options and how these options may be impacted by research developments. That’s why the Patient Empowerment Network created the Evolve Series, to arm you with the latest information and to help you feel empowered and confident during conversations about your care.  

In today’s program, we’re going to hear from an expert in the field about the evolving treatment landscape for myelofibrosis and discuss how you can play an active role in your care.  

Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining us is Dr. Gaby Hobbs. Dr. Hobbs, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Hi, how are you? Thank you so much for inviting me today. My name is Gaby Hobbs. I’m the clinical director of the leukemia service at Mass General Hospital in Boston and the director of the MPN program at MGH as well. I conduct clinical trials as well as see patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms.  

Katherine:

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. We really appreciate it.  

Dr. Hobbs:

My pleasure.  

Katherine:

Before we get into our discussion, can you share with the audience how the field of myelofibrosis has changed over the course of your career? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so it really has been a very exciting journey. So, when I was in medical school, I think that we basically had just discovered the JAK2 mutation.  

So, in the course of my own training and then my professional career, we’ve gone from myeloproliferative diseases being conditions where we really didn’t necessarily have a reason why people would get these conditions. Now not only do we know about the JAK2 mutation, but we know about many other mutations that patients can have. Then in 2011, the first JAK inhibitor was approved, ruxolitinib (Jakafi), and since then, three additional JAK inhibitors have now been approved, including pacritinib (Vonjo), fedratinib (Inrebic), and most recently, momelotinib (Ojjaara).  

So, the field has definitely advanced concretely in that regard. But we also just have much more information about how to diagnose these conditions and also how to treat them. Outside of the JAK inhibitors, we’re better at recognizing when patients need to go to get a bone marrow transplant. For example, and our outcomes with bone marrow transplantation have improved significantly. We also have many other treatment approaches that wouldn’t have existed before, and we also recognize that patients with MPNs live with a lot of symptoms. So, I think that we’re better at just the doctoring part of taking care of patients with MPN. So, definitely, the field has just really, really changed significantly in the last two decades. 

Katherine:

That sounds like it’s been a rapid change, really. There may be some confusion, Dr. Hobbs, among people wondering what is the difference between primary and secondary myelofibrosis? Could you describe the differences?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure. Great question. So, that term, primary and secondary, is actually used in medicine very frequently for the description of many conditions that are not that different. So, primary means a patient has myelofibrosis and did not have any myeloproliferative neoplasm, or MPN, before their diagnosis.  

So, they went to the doctor and the first diagnosis they received was a diagnosis of myelofibrosis. Now sometimes we suspect that a patient may have had another MPN previously, such as essential thrombocythemia or polycythemia vera, but they just weren’t diagnosed.   

What I mean by that is, you know, let’s say you meet a patient and you look through their chart and you see that five years ago or 10 years ago, they had really, really high platelets or very high red blood cell numbers. So, there you could say, well, you know, you were never diagnosed with ET or PV, but maybe you had that. So, you probably have secondary myelofibrosis, but the diagnosis, you know, that you come with to the doctor is myelofibrosis. So, secondary myelofibrosis means that you had an underlying condition before, meaning you were first diagnosed with one condition like PV, polycythemia vera, or ET, and then those conditions turned into myelofibrosis.  

And then we call that secondary myelofibrosis, meaning it is secondary to the primary condition, meaning ET or PV. One area of confusion that I’d like to be able to clarify also related to this is if a person has secondary myelofibrosis, they don’t have two myeloproliferative neoplasms or two conditions. It is one and the same. They just live on a spectrum and over time, they can turn into, one into the other. So, it’s not that you now have two diagnoses, it’s still the same condition, it’s just morphed a little.  

Katherine:

Okay, thank you for that explanation. I’d like to talk about the importance of a patient’s healthcare team. What are the benefits to seeking care with a myelofibrosis specialist, even if it’s just for a second opinion or a consultation? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Great question. I think that one thing that COVID has given us is the ability to have webinars like this, but also that you can seek second opinions more easily with the advent of telehealth.  

So, whereas before I think that getting that second opinion would have been maybe more challenging, perhaps now it’s easier. But to answer your question, these conditions are rare. Myelofibrosis in particular is even more rare than the others.  

The landscape, as I kind of alluded to in our initial question, has changed significantly in the last two decades. So, getting a second opinion, whether that’s, like you said, just for an initial consultation, and then you never see that person again. Or you end up having kind of two doctors, one that treats you for your day-to-day needs and an expert or specialist that sees you occasionally as things may change, which can be very beneficial for a variety of reasons. I think that the first one is to just hear hopefully the same information that your initial doctor gave you, but maybe from a different perspective. I think that’s always helpful when dealing with a new diagnosis.  

Second is, you know, a specialist may have access to clinical trials. Although that may not be the right thing for you when you first meet them, it may be something you would want to consider or may be appropriate for you later down in your treatment. So, being connected to somebody that has access to research is something that, you know, it opens a door.   

Katherine:

We’ve established that research in the field is moving quickly. What are new and emerging therapies that are showing promise?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so the list is long and it’s getting longer. So, in addition to the fact that we now have four JAK inhibitors approved, which is worth just remembering that, because not that long ago we only had one, and one of them was just approved less than six months ago.  There are many new agents that are being studied in combination with the JAK inhibitors. This past year at the American Society of Hematology meeting, which is the annual meeting where we go to share our research and learn from our colleagues, there were two Phase III studies that were presented at the same time.  

I can’t remember, or I don’t think, but that has really ever happened before for myelofibrosis. One of them was with an agent called pelabresib, which is a type of molecule called a BET Inhibitor. And the other one was with an agent called navitoclax, which is an agent called a BCLXL-BCL2 inhibitor, which is a molecule that helps cells to undergo apoptosis or programmed cell death.  

So, these molecules were both combined with ruxolitinib. And we saw the results of the Phase III studies for each of these agents, and they were really quite exciting. The punchline for both of these studies is that they demonstrated that when you give two drugs as opposed to just one, the amount of patients that have a significant reduction in their spleen is doubled than when you give ruxolitinib in it by itself. So, for some of our patients that is a really meaningful number. You know, if you’re a patient that suffers from a big spleen, knowing that there’s a possibility of having two drugs that you can take to really shrink that spleen in a significant way, I think is very, very promising. On the symptom front, taking two medicines versus one medicine really didn’t seem to make a huge difference. I think we can analyze this in two different ways.  

We can see the negative or the positive side of this. So, on the negative side, well, it’s too bad that, you know, added medication didn’t help patients feel better. But on the upside, it’s also good that taking two medicines didn’t make people feel worse. Sometimes you can think of, you know, if you’re taking more medication, maybe you will feel worse. So, the jury is kind of still add on the significance of those results. But regardless, without getting into too much detail about these studies, I think it’s really exciting for myelofibrosis patients to know that there are two agents that are in Phase III testing.

That means that the next step is really consideration of FDA approval. So, when medications go through clinical trials, they go through earlier phase studies, Phase I, Phase II, and then finally they get to Phase III. A lot of work and effort has gone into these two compounds to try to get them to FDA approval. So, we’ll wait and see if in the next year or so we have new agents for the treatment of MF.  

In addition to these two, which of course are the most advanced, there really are a variety of other agents that are being tested. Those, for the most part, are still in Phase II testing. And similarly to the ones I mentioned before, most of the compounds, the way that they go into trials is first they start out showing that they’re safe by themselves, and then they get added to a JAK inhibitor.

So, far, because ruxolitinib has been the one that we’ve had around for the longest, most of these studies are being tested in combination with ruxolitinib. But we start to hear rumblings from clinical trials that perhaps some of the newer trials will consider using other JAK inhibitors as combination partners, which is a natural evolution. So, to name a few other agents, we have drugs like selinexor (Xpovio), and navtemadlin we have a PIM kinase inhibitor, a lysyl oxidase inhibitor, an LSD1 inhibitor, the list is long of all these different agents.  

Preliminarily, at least from the data we’ve seen from all of these compounds, I think there’s a lot of room for excitement. We see that combining these drugs together, the new agent plus the ruxolitinib, leads to a significant reduction in the spleen. And in some of these agents, we’re starting to see other endpoints. So, in addition to just looking at can we make patients feel better and can we shrink their spleens?

We’re starting to look at other things such as when we add these medications, do we see a reduction in the scarring or the fibrosis in the bone marrow? Do we see a decrease in the cells that have the mutation? Do we see the patients live longer? All of those things are endpoints in our studies that we really haven’t tested before. So, I think the field really will produce a lot of exciting data in the next couple of years.  

Katherine:

You mentioned clinical trials, and we will talk about those in a few moments, but are there innovations in technology that are accelerating myelofibrosis research?   

Dr. Hobbs:

So, the most obvious way to answer that question is simply that it’s much easier to diagnose myelofibrosis now, thanks to the ability to do genetic testing now much more easily than before. So, I think that previously, you know, getting JAK2 testing or testing for the other mutations was not as simple or would take a long time for the results to come back.  

Now, you know, I see even in the smallest of practices, ordering not just the JAK2 gene, but ordering what many of us do, which is like a panel of genes, where you test for a lot of the genes at the same time, has become almost commonplace. So, that’s really a meaningful advance in that it’s a technology that’s available and it’s no longer as prohibitively expensive as it was before.  

That doesn’t mean that some patients don’t end up getting charged in ways that doesn’t make any sense anymore, but that’s a conversation for another time. But I think just having the ability to make those diagnoses because of how easy it is now to test for these mutations is really very meaningful.

Outside of that, I mean, I would say that along with the improvement in the knowledge of what mutations patients have with myelofibrosis, we definitely have deeper ways of analyzing what genes are being expressed and in what cells they’re being expressed to really understand, you know, when do patients first get those mutations and how do those mutations change over time. So, we’re really diving deep into the actual biology of the bone marrow and there’s some studies that have demonstrated that patients may even have the JAK-2 mutation in utero, which is really, really fascinating. So, definitely a lot more understanding of the actual biology of how these diseases happen.  

Katherine:

Dr. Hobbs, a key part of research moving forward is the clinical trial process. Can you talk about the benefits of patient participation? 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, so I think to answer that question, I should preface that by saying that I conduct clinical trials, and so certainly my answer is going to have that as a bias, so it’s important to know that. And I tell my patients that as well when I’m talking to them about clinical trials. Now, why do I think clinical trials are beneficial? Well, there’s really no way to advance the field without the sacrifice that patients do by allowing us to conduct clinical trials. Without clinical trials, we cannot get drugs approved. Without new drugs, we certainly can’t help our patients anymore with newer therapies. That being said, a clinical trial is something that is not just an experiment. Many times patients will be like, well, I don’t want to be a guinea pig. And I completely respect that.  

So, I think it’s really important to recognize too, that we take conducting clinical trials very, very seriously. The machinery that needs to exist in each hospital to conduct trials includes a ton of people. So, we have a lot of regulatory bodies, both within the hospital and outside of the hospital, to ensure that clinical trials are conducted in an ethical and in a safe way. So, one of the benefits, which you may not consider when you’re contemplating participating in a trial, is that your care team actually becomes much larger. You’re much more closely scrutinized actually, when you’re a member of a trial.

So, whereas before you would have just primarily seen me and my nurse practitioner, when you participate in a clinical trial, all of a sudden you have all these research nurses that are calling you, checking in with you, making sure you’re feeling well, et cetera. So, that’s actually a nice perk to participating in trials. So, an important thing to know with clinical trials is that they may not benefit everybody. 

And that not every clinical trial may be right for you and that there may be times when trials are appropriate and times where trials may not be appropriate. So, it’s not a decision that you make that’s black and white and that’s a decision that you make forever. I think it’s something that you can continue to discuss with your care team as you go through having this disease.  

Katherine:

Let’s move on to treatment. Would you provide an overview of the currently approved therapies for myelofibrosis?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure, absolutely. So, I’ve alluded to this a little bit. So, in 2011, we had the first JAK inhibitor approved called ruxolitinib, the brand name is Jakafi. After that, we had the approval of Inrebic or fedratinib and then pacritinib or VONJO, and then most recently momelotinib or Ojjaara. So, we have four different JAK inhibitors that are now approved for myelofibrosis.  

So, who needs to get a JAK inhibitor and how do we choose between the JAK inhibitors? So, the traditional indications for JAK inhibitors are, does a patient have bothersome symptoms from having a big spleen? Does a person have symptoms from their disease? Symptoms can include things like night sweats, itching, unintentional weight loss, brain fog, and fatigue. Fatigue can be challenging because of course many things can cause fatigue. But those are some of the symptoms that can occur with having this disease. So, if a patient has both splenomegaly symptoms or one or the other, they’re eligible for a JAK inhibitor.  

So, just having myelofibrosis doesn’t mean that you need to have a JAK inhibitor right away. Probably the most commonly used JAK inhibitor, and this will be the case probably for a long time, is ruxolitinib.  

The reason for that is that it’s been around for a long time, and it’s a very well-tolerated medication. Patients that have platelets that are very low, meaning platelets that are less than 50, should be considered for pacritinib first, as that’s the indication for that agent. Patients that don’t do that well on ruxolitinib initially, let’s say that the dose gets increased and the spleen and the symptoms are still present, but still have good blood counts, are good candidates for then receiving fedratinib. Fedratinib can also be given upfront. It rarely is given upfront, simply because ruxolitinib has been around for longer and it’s a better-tolerated medication. So, therefore most providers feel more comfortable giving that upfront. I have had some patients that are concerned about the weight gain that is a side effect of ruxolitinib. For those patients, I’ve occasionally considered giving fedratinib first before ruxolitinib. And then lastly, we have momelotinib. It’s approved primarily for patients with myelofibrosis and anemia.  

Now momelotinib is still a JAK inhibitor, so it can still improve symptoms, and it still improves spleen size. So, I struggle with that recommendation of just using it for anemia in patients that don’t have splenomegaly or symptoms.  

But the FDA label was pretty broad, and it’s important to recognize that. So, how is momelotinib being used? It can be used in the upfront setting for patients that have spleen and symptoms, and also anemia, meaning low red blood cell levels. Or,  it can be used for patients that have been treated with a JAK inhibitor first and then develop anemia. So, momelotinib is given to continue to improve the spleen and symptoms, but also help the anemia. So, that’s kind of like an overview of the four JAK inhibitors. Now we have a group of patients that maybe doesn’t have a lot of spleen symptoms or symptoms in general but has issues with having low hemoglobin. So, for those patients, we’ve used a variety of different medications, including medications that are called erythropoietin, which is a hormone that helps to boost the red blood cell levels.  

A medicine that’s similar to testosterone that can also help boost the red blood cell levels called danazol (Danocrine). And then there’s a medication called luspatercept-aamt (Reblozyl) that has been approved for a related condition called myelodysplastic syndrome. And in some clinics, it can be used even though it’s not approved either by itself or in combination with ruxolitinib. And then lastly, patients that have what is called high-risk myelofibrosis, meaning they have some mutations that may indicate that a patient has a higher risk of having complications of their disease, or they have very low blood counts, are usually considered high-risk. Those patients should be recommended and referred to transplantation as soon as they’re identified as having high-risk disease.  

Katherine:

When you say transplantation, you’re referring to stem cell transplant. 

Dr. Hobbs:

Yes, and I’m glad you said it that way actually. So, stem cell transplantation or bone marrow transplantation, same thing, interchangeable, same procedure. You got it.  

Katherine:

Yeah. So, where do clinical trials fit into a treatment plan? 

Dr. Hobbs:

So, it really depends on what is available at the site where you’re seeking care. Clinical trials come in a variety of different flavors. So, there may be a clinical trial for patients that are newly diagnosed, that are about to start a JAK inhibitor, for example.  

So, if you’re a patient that’s considering a JAK inhibitor to treat your spleen symptoms or your systemic symptoms, and there happens to be a clinical trial for adding on another medication, like the first JAK inhibitor you receive, well, that’s a great place to consider a clinical trial.  

There may also be clinical trials in later lines. Let’s say you were treated only with a JAK inhibitor first, but the study that’s available at your center is adding another medication to the JAK inhibitor if the JAK inhibitor by itself didn’t quite do the trick. 

There’s also other studies, for example, at the time of transplantation, for example, using the JAK inhibitors during transplant. So, really the clinical trials can be relevant at any time during treatment. In addition to clinical trials, testing new medications, there’s also other ways to participate in research throughout your time as a patient with your care team, which may include things like, for example, consenting to participate in a tissue bank.  

You donate a sample of your blood or bone marrow that is then later on used for research. Or we may have studies investigating the symptoms a patient has throughout their disease or their experience living with their disease. So, there’s many different ways of participating in research and clinical trials, even if those don’t necessarily include trying a new medication.  

Katherine:

What questions should patients be asking if they’re interested in learning more about clinical trials?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Yeah, great question. So, the first is understanding, you know, what is the medication that you will be receiving? Are you going to be receiving a placebo? Is that an option? This means a sugar pill. That’s a common question that I get. How do you get assigned to different groups? So, in one trial, there may be a group that gets one dose, another group that gets another dose, et cetera. So, it’d be important to know how are you going to get assigned and what are the options potentially for you before you sign up. After that, it’s important to know what phase the study is in.

So, is this a first-in-human study where your doctor may not be able to tell you a whole lot about what’s expected in terms of side effects or safety or toxicity? Or is this a Phase III study where maybe the trial has been open for many years and there’s been many patients that have been enrolled in it already? Or maybe this is a drug that’s already been approved for another condition and we’re borrowing it for myelofibrosis, for example, and then your care team can tell you lots of information about the safety and toxicities, etc.  

So, having a sense of where the drug is in its development, I think can be very helpful. Then there are some practical things that we sometimes do not spend enough time talking about.  

So, I’m glad to have the space to talk about that here. Participating in a clinical trial takes time. And it’ll take more time as a patient to participate in a clinical trial than to receive regular care. You may have to go to the hospital where you’re being treated more frequently. If you’re somebody that receives virtual care where some of your visits are telehealth and some of them are in person, you need to be aware that you may have more visits that are in person because the clinical trial procedure requires that certain labs or tests be done in the facility, not anywhere else. Clinical trials by definition, unfortunately, sometimes have to be very inflexible in order to ensure that we collect data in a uniform way.  

So, just being aware that it may take more time to participate is important. And along those lines, asking if the clinical trial will reimburse you for some of that time. So, for example, if you need to park in the expensive hospital parking more frequently, some trials will actually reimburse you for that. Or they may offer a hotel reimbursement if you need to travel from far away and spend a night there. So, don’t be afraid to ask those things because many times that’s built into the clinical trial.

So, that’s an important thing just practically to know. So, asking for a study calendar so you get a sense of how frequently you’ll need to be going to the doctor is really important. Also, then realizing that potentially you may have to go to see the doctor or the care team more frequently initially, but then after the first couple of months, if everything is going well, you’ll likely have the flexibility to go less often. So, all those questions are important to have in mind.  

Katherine:

That’s great information, thanks, Dr. Hobbs. When considering therapy, how do you approach a treatment plan for someone diagnosed with myelofibrosis?  

Dr. Hobbs:

Great question. So, when approaching how I care for a patient with myelofibrosis, I take several things into account. The first thing is, who is this patient? What other medical conditions do they have? How impacted are they by their myelofibrosis? Then what I like to do is to plug in the numbers of the patient, their blood work, their mutations, etcetera, into one of the many risk calculators that we have to determine what the risk of their myelofibrosis is. 

If a patient is considered high-risk, I will generally consider transplantation or discuss a referral to a bone marrow transplantation in one of our first visits, if not the first visit. After that, I need to determine whether or not the patient has symptoms from their disease, and if so, if they should receive a JAK inhibitor. Then I’ll look through their blood work, what their symptoms are to decide which JAK inhibitor to use first.  

If really the spleen and symptoms aren’t the primary issue, if it’s more related to low blood counts, then we can think about treatments directed at improving the hemoglobin, for example. There may be a group of patients that don’t actually require any treatment when I first meet them. So, just providing them with education, what to expect. Then discussing more of the psychological impact of living with a condition and approaches to handle that, maybe more the focus of my care.

And in general, for most of my patients, we also talk about the rest of the care. So, not just what the blood work is and what medicine I’m going to start them on, but also other things that they can do to take care of themselves, including making sure that they are actively monitored by their primary care doctor or by other specialists if that’s still appropriate. You know, one of the things we don’t discuss that frequently in myelofibrosis, we discuss that more often in essential thrombocythemia or polycythemia vera is a risk of blood clots.  

But the truth is that myelofibrosis patients can also have risks of blood clots. So, therefore, making sure that patients with MF that may have issues like hypertension, diabetes, high cholesterol, etc., get those well-managed is also really important to prevent them from having blood clots. So, lifestyle management is also an important part of the care of a patient with myelofibrosis. 

Katherine:

That’s all great advice. A note to our viewers, PEN has also created downloadable office visit planners to help you organize your thoughts and communicate effectively with your healthcare team. You can find those in the MPN Toolkit at powerfulpatients.org or by scanning the QR code on your screen.  

Well, it’s been a lot of great information, Dr. Hobbs, and I’d like to close with your thoughts on the future of myelofibrosis care. Where are we headed and what would you like to leave our audience with?   

Dr. Hobbs:

Well, the first thing I wanted to say is just kind of piggyback with what you said about the visit planner. I love that. I think that many times patients come to a visit and they’re like, oh, I had this question that I wanted to ask you and now I can’t remember what it was. And especially if you’re seeing a doctor every six months or something like that, making sure that you come to that visit prepared with lots of questions is an excellent way to make the most use out of your visit with your provider. So, I definitely encourage you to do that. In terms of what to leave patients with, so going back to what we were discussing initially, the list of new agents that are being investigated for myelofibrosis is long and longer by the day. So, as a myelofibrosis doctor, I really feel very optimistic that in  the next year and hopefully in the next couple of years, we’re going to have a variety of new treatment options that are going to really help our patients to live not just longer with their myelofibrosis, but truly to live much better with their myelofibrosis.  

So,  continue to get informed by watching webinars such as this one and reading reliable sources of information on different patient advocacy organizations because there’s really a lot of changes that are happening. So, I definitely think it’s a time to feel hopeful about the future of  myelofibrosis.  

Katherine:

Well, thank you so much for taking time to join us today, Dr. Hobbs, we really appreciate it.  

Dr. Hobbs:

Sure, it’s always a pleasure.  

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. 

To learn more about myelofibrosis and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatiens.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us.   

PODCAST: Kidney Cancer Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Moshe Ornstein

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START HERE bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients facing a kidney cancer diagnosis to feel comfortable asking precise questions of their healthcare team.

In this program, Dr. Moshe Ornstein offers invaluable insights into renal cell carcinoma (RCC), equipping newly diagnosed patients with essential information on treatment priorities, as well as strategies for managing progression and recurrence.

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See More from START HERE Renal Cell Carcinoma (RCC)

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program, where we bridge the expert and patient voice to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions for our healthcare team. The world is complicated, but understanding your kidney cancer doesn’t have to be. The goal of this program is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of treatment and survivorship. 

Joining me today is Dr. Moshe Ornstein. Dr. Ornstein is a respected kidney cancer physician and researcher from Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Ornstein’s clinical practice and research are focused on cancers of the genitourinary system, specifically kidney, bladder, and prostate cancer. He has published multiple research articles and presented his research at a variety of national medical meetings. He’s actively involved in multiple clinical trials. Dr. Ornstein, it’s such a pleasure having you today, and thank you for joining us. 

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Thanks for having me, Lisa. Pleasure to be here.

Lisa Hatfield:

So before we dive into today’s discussion, please take a moment to download the program resource guide using the QR code. This guide contains pertinent information to guide you both before and after the program. In this program, we’ll provide you with a comprehensive update on the latest kidney cancer news, and its implications for you and your family. Following that, we’ll launch into questions we have received from you.

So let’s start here. Dr. Ornstein, the treatment landscape of renal cell carcinoma, also known as kidney cancer, has evolved significantly over the past three decades, leading to improved therapeutic options and prolonged survival. That said, we also recognize that there are unmet needs to improve outcomes in kidney cancer. Today, we are privileged to have your expertise to help us decipher these developments and shed light on the advancements shaping the landscape of kidney cancer care. Dr. Ornstein, can you speak to the latest news in renal cell carcinoma?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Sure, Lisa. It’s a great question. But before I start with the most recent updates and the latest news, I just want to clarify something. I think for you, Lisa, as you say the words kidney cancer and renal cell carcinoma, it’s indeed a mouthful. And for our patients, it can be very confusing as they sometimes hear kidney cancer, they sometimes hear renal cell carcinoma, they sometimes hear RCC, and it can be really hard to digest and understand what their diagnosis is, or if they see a presentation or a talk on kidney cancer, what that means.

So kidney cancer just means any cancer that arises in the kidney. There’s lots of different types of kidney cancer. For the purposes of today’s discussion, we’re really talking about renal cell carcinoma or RCC, which is the most common type of kidney cancer. And within RCC, the most common subtype is clear cell renal cell carcinoma.

So today, when you hear us talk about kidney cancer, RCC, renal cell carcinoma, clear cell RCC, just know that we’re referring to the most common type of kidney cancer. But it is a really important thing to talk to your doctors about, and for patients to talk, and their families to talk to physicians about to understand the subtype. We’ll use colloquially kidney cancer and RCC for today’s discussion. So just by way of a 30,000 foot view, when it comes to renal cell carcinoma, approximately two-thirds of patients are diagnosed when the cancer is in a localized stage, where the cancer is treated with curative intent, generally with surgery.

For patients who present with metastatic kidney cancer,  in other words, kidney cancer that has spread beyond the kidney, or for patients who had their kidney removed and then developed a recurrence or the cancer had come back to the lungs or the bones or anywhere beyond the kidney, those patients are treated with what’s called systemic therapy. Those are medicines that really cover head to toe, not a specific area, but head to toe.

And when we think about treatment options in kidney cancer, there are two main treatment options. One is immunotherapy. Immunotherapy is generally what’s called checkpoint inhibitors. And these are therapies that “release the brakes” on the immune system, and allow the body’s immune system to be activated to target the cancer. And the other type of medicine is called targeted therapies. And these for the most part, are vascular targeted therapies, and the way I describe it is they shrink the blood supply to the tumors. So again, you have those tumors that are diagnosed at a local stage. You have those tumors that are metastatic or advanced beyond the kidney. And the main treatment paradigms have to do with immunotherapy and targeted therapy.

So we just had the ASCO GU meeting, and I just want to describe the updates and how they fit into sort of the overall treatment paradigms across the different treatment sections, in other words, localized and metastatic. So for a patient who presents and comes in with just a kidney mass, that’s a kidney cancer, generally that patient’s going to be treated with surgery.

In general, there’s no rule for therapy before surgery. For many years, for that patient who had their kidney cancer removed from the kidney, either part of the kidney or the whole kidney removed, we really didn’t know what to do with those patients, and the standard of care was just to watch those patients. And we’ll get into a discussion about what watching the patient means. But one of the updates from the recent meetings has been that for patients who have their kidney removed because of kidney cancer, there is now a rule in some patients, this has to be a discussion with the doctor, to use immunotherapy to help prevent or delay the cancer from coming back. It’s a personal discussion.

We have a lot of data to support the use of a medicine called pembrolizumab (Keytruda), which is an immunotherapy that patients would get for a year after their kidney surgery. So that’s really the big recent update in the localized kidney cancer world, where the kidney cancer has been removed by surgery, and there’s now a treatment option, a year of immunotherapy after surgery for the right patient. So now, we move to the metastatic patient.

So again, the patient who has metastatic disease, either comes in with metastatic disease upfront, meaning the kidney’s there, the tumor’s in the kidney, and there’s advanced disease. And the other type is the patient who had their kidney removed a year ago, two years ago, sometimes five years ago, and now shows up with new spots in the lungs or the bones or elsewhere in the body. And that is metastatic or advanced kidney cancer.

So by in large, the overwhelming majority, and in my clinical practice, 95 percent of these patients are going to get an immunotherapy-based regimen as the first treatment for advanced kidney cancer. And there are different types of immunotherapy-based regimens. There’s an immunotherapy in combination with immunotherapy, and that’s called ipilimumab (Yervoy) and nivolumab (Opdivo), so double immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy plus a targeted therapy.

Lisa, we spoke about the targeted therapy cutting the blood supply. So in addition to getting two immunotherapies, some patients won’t get two immunotherapies, they’ll get one immunotherapy in combination with a targeted therapy. And those combinations include axitinib (Inlyta) and pembrolizumab, lenvatinib (Lenvima) and pembrolizumab and cabozantinib (Cabometyx) and nivolumab as the primary combination treatments for the first line of therapy for metastatic kidney cancer.

And the real updates from the recent meetings in this setting is just that with additional follow-up, in other words, we’ve seen follow-up at two years after the trial started, three years, four years, now five years, we’re seeing that there’s a subset of patients that continue to benefit with this combination years down the road. So, encouraging for patients. Again, it’s not every patient, different patients need different things, but just the knowledge that we have long-term follow-up data for patients who have gotten an immunotherapy-based combination for the front-line treatment for their advanced kidney cancer.

And the last update I want to touch on is once we move beyond that first line of immunotherapy-based combinations, we really don’t know exactly what to do beyond that. Meaning, if somebody got an immunotherapy-based combination, and then the kidney cancer got worse, what do we give next? And generally, we’re giving more of these vascular inhibitors, these targeted therapies. And the latest advancement in this area, in the refractory setting, in other words post immunotherapy-based combination is the introduction of a new medicine called belzutifan (Welireg), which is not a classic vascular inhibitor, but is something called the HIF-2α inhibitor. It’s a very well-tolerated therapy in many of the patients. And it does have activity in the right patient. And it’s now FDA-approved relatively recently for patients who have already had an immunotherapy-based combination. So that’s kind of the major update.

The post-surgery treatment with immunotherapy, long-term data for immunotherapy-based combinations in the metastatic setting, and a novel therapy, a new mechanism of action with a pill with a therapy called belzutifan for patients whose kidney cancer is getting worse despite standard treatments upfront.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you so much for that outstanding overview. I had one follow-up question to that overview regarding clinical trials. So can you talk about any clinical trials you are excited about, both in the newly diagnosed setting or in the…I can’t remember what you called it, but the newly diagnosed setting and then the metastatic or recurring setting for kidney cancer, specific clinical trials, and then some of the medications that you had mentioned, are those FDA-approved right now or are those also in clinical…are most of those in clinical trials at the moment?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

A great question. I think what this goes to show is that, here I am talking to you, and sometimes some of the words are hard to understand. You can imagine a patient with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, how confusing a lot of this can be. So I’m really happy we’re having this discussion. Everything I had mentioned up until this point is FDA-approved. And if I am to mention something that is not FDA-approved, I’ll make that caveat. And while we’re talking about non-FDA-approved therapies, let’s talk about some of those new and exciting clinical trials. The way I look at clinical trials, whether it’s in the treatment naive, so a patient who has a newly diagnosed cancer, or in a patient with refractory cancer, meaning cancer that has gotten worse despite some treatment already.

So I look at clinical trials, and I tend to divide them into two different main categories. And I think for patients, this sort of helps categorize them in a neat fashion. One, is looking at those trials that are investigating novel therapies. So we spoke about those immunotherapy checkpoint inhibitors, we spoke about those vascular endothelial growth factor inhibitors, in other words, targeted therapy. We spoke about this HIF-2α, those are all therapies that we understand the mechanism of action, we understand how they work.

So one kind of clinical trial is saying, what’s next? What’s down the road? What’s not an irregular immunotherapy? What’s not a regular targeted therapy? What’s not another HIF-2α drug? What are the novel therapies being investigated? So some of those trials that I’m interested in are trials that are looking at something called bispecifics. So these are singular drugs that sort of have two different targets. We’re looking at cellular therapies. We know these things called CAR-T cells work well in some of other cancers like lymphomas, but is there a rule for using this type of novel mechanism in kidney cancer?

Drugs looking at things called antibody drug conjugates, which again, these types of therapies are available in breast cancer, in bladder cancer, in other types of cancer, but not yet in kidney cancer. And that’s kind of the one category of novel mechanisms, novel agents. That’s one class of clinical trials. And the other class of clinical trials is really sort of optimizing the drugs we already have. So we know that as a general rule, giving immunotherapy plus targeted therapy is better than giving immunotherapy alone. But what about trials looking at giving two immunotherapies plus a targeted therapy?

We know that patients either get immunotherapy and immunotherapy, or an immunotherapy and a targeted therapy. What about if we gave two immunotherapies and a targeted therapy? Can three be better than two? So there are trials both in the front-line setting and in the refractory setting, looking at these novel therapies in the one bucket. And then there are also trials looking at these combinations and different ways of mixing and matching therapies that we already have to optimize patient outcomes?

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that description of clinical trials, too. That’s very helpful.

Okay. Now it’s that time where we answer questions that we’ve received from you. Please remember that this is not a substitute for your medical care. Always consult with your medical team. So, Dr. Ornstein, how do you explain a kidney cancer diagnosis to your newly diagnosed patients, and what are the priorities for those newly diagnosed patients?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

When I’m looking at a patient and their family with a newly diagnosed kidney cancer, I’m trying to think to myself a couple of things. Number one, how can I make it as easy to understand without withholding any information? How can I be as encouraging as possible, but at the same time without misleading the patient in terms of what’s to come? The way I break it down is into two main categories. There is the patient that presents with a localized kidney cancer.

So they came to the emergency room because they were having belly pain, and they were found to have a big mass growing in their kidney that is proven to be kidney cancer. And then there’s the patient who has advanced disease, metastatic disease that has spread beyond the kidney. Either they came in with metastatic disease, in other words, their kidneys in place, and they have cancer beyond the kidney. Or they already had a surgery a year or two ago, and now they come back, and the cancer has returned elsewhere in the body.

So for the patient that comes with a localized kidney cancer or kidney cancer limited to the kidney, I talk to them about what the diagnosis means in terms of what subtype of kidney cancer is it, meaning although most kidney cancers are clear cell renal cell carcinoma, there are other types of kidney cancer. And I want them to have a good handle in terms of what they have, both so that they know and they have all the information they need, but also because I understand that most patients, or at least many patients are going to look for more information elsewhere.  And without understanding the histology, the type of kidney cancer they actually have, I worry that they’re not going to get the right information. So I try to be very clear about what stage is it based on the scans or if they’re coming to see me after their surgery, what stage is it after the surgery?

What does it mean when something is a grade 1 versus a grade 2 versus a grade 3 in terms of what the cells look like under the microscope? That’s about the cancer. And then I talk to them about what we’re going to look for in the future. So again, we’re talking now about the patient with localized kidney cancer. I try to go through with them what the risk of that localized cancer is in terms of what the odds are of it coming back. We talk about what kind of surveillance, what kind of watching or monitoring of the cancer are we going to do, how often they’re going to get CAT scans.

So really try to give them the big picture about what cancer they have, what the outlook is, and what we’re going to do to keep a close eye on them. For the patient who has an advanced cancer, in some ways it’s similar. When I say advanced, I mean a cancer that has spread beyond the kidney that’s going to require therapy, immunotherapy, targeted therapy, a clinical trial, whatever it might be.

And again, super important for them to understand, is this a clear cell kidney cancer? Which is the most common? Is it a papillary kidney cancer? Is it something else? Then we talk about what the different treatment options are. What does the short term look like in terms of side effects? What does the short term look like in terms of getting the cancer under control? What does the long-term outlook look like? What are the possible long-term side effects? And then what are we going to do to monitor? Are we doing CAT scans? Are we doing MRIs? Are we doing imaging of their brain?

So again, first and foremost, what’s the nature of the diagnosis, what the treatment options are and likely side effects, what they need to look out for, and then how we as a medical team are going to monitor this over hopefully the long run.

Lisa Hatfield:

We have a patient asking if you can speak to a typical patient history associated with kidney cancer and is there a common factor, or I think that they’re asking is there a cause that you see frequently for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

Yeah, this is such a common question, Lisa, because patients want to know I have this cancer, what caused it? And generally, we just don’t know the answer to that. And I tell that to patients, it’s generally not something that somebody did that caused this kidney cancer. We do have known risk factors for kidney cancer, whether it’s obesity, smoking, high blood pressure, chronic kidney disease. So there are certain risk factors and associations, but it’s really difficult for a specific patient to be able to pinpoint this caused the kidney cancer. And I think it’s reassuring for patients to know that as a general rule, it’s not something that a patient did that caused the kidney cancer, and it’s not somebody’s fault that they have the kidney cancer.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. What is hereditary renal cell carcinoma, and can you speak to the instance that you’ve seen in your practice? And third part of that question is, how can I protect my family?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein: 

It’s a loaded question, Lisa. And the truth is, you know, patients come in and many patients are not concerned about their well-being, they’re more concerned about their family, and they want to know, “Is this something that’s going to impact my children? Do my children need to be screened for kidney cancer at an earlier age or screened at all?” Because generally we don’t screen people for kidney cancer. 90+, maybe even as high as 95 percent of kidney cancer is what’s called sporadic.

In other words, it just comes out of the blue. I tell patients in some ways it’s just bad luck. It’s not anything they did. It’s not something that they got a gene from their mother or father that caused it, and it’s not something that they’re going to pass down to their children. There’s a very small percentage, maybe about 5 percent or so of kidney cancer that’s hereditary, that does have, you know, a genetic association. That is something that they can potentially pass down, and they may have received that gene from a parent.

It’s exceedingly rare. We think about VHL syndrome, we think about something called hereditary papillary, tuberous sclerosis complex, Birt-Hogg-Dubé, but the overwhelming majority are sporadic, not associated with any specific gene in terms of a gene passed down from parent to child. What I would say is when I start to think about an inherited kidney cancer, I’m thinking more about a very young patient who comes in with kidney cancer, where we don’t expect young patients generally to have kidney cancer, or a patient who shows up with kidney cancer that’s in both of the kidneys. So there are certain unusual features that would lead a doctor to think about a hereditary or genetically associated kidney cancer. But overwhelmingly, it’s sporadic. Children are not necessarily at a higher risk, don’t need to be screened. But for these small features we do in clinic, keep an eye out for that.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So when you have a patient who comes in with those more unusual presentations, do you recommend that they get some type of genetic testing done, so they can be aware for their family members that maybe they should be screened?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there’s an unusual feature, either a feature associated with tuberous sclerosis complex or something called Birt-Hogg-Dubé, or a young patient with advanced kidney cancer where we don’t expect it, or a patient that shows up with cancer in both of their kidneys and nowhere else, that will trigger us to send the patient to a genetic counselor to do a more thorough family history and talk about what they might be looking for in terms of genetic testing.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. All right. Another person watching is asking, are there known occupational exposure risk factors for kidney cancer?

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

This is a great question. You know, we know that with certain cancers, there are classic occupational exposure risks. People want to know, “If I worked in a coal mine, am I more likely to get this kind of kidney cancer? What if I’m a Vietnam veteran and I was exposed to Agent Orange, is this more likely?” Really difficult to find those associations.

I would say that probably the biggest ones are going to be, again, smoking, which I don’t know is so much an occupational hazard, although secondhand smoke is a real risk factor for cancers. Asbestos. So people who worked around a lot of asbestos, that can be a risk factor even for kidney cancer. I know we usually think about it as lung cancer mesothelioma, but definitely for kidney cancer as well in some studies. And then certain forms of gasoline exposure. I will tell you that I’ve taken care of a lot of patients and a lot of people who have kidney cancer and have never been able to isolate an occupational exposure. But looking in the literature, we’re really looking more for asbestos, certain gasoline, secondhand smoke, things like that.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Okay. Thank you. Another patient is asking if there are any specific diets or diet recommendations for kidney cancer patients, especially as they relate to managing side effects of the treatment.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

We get asked all the time. And my general answer that I give, and again it’s sort of tongue in cheek, is I tell the patients the same diet that I should be following is the diet that I would recommend to you. I tell patients it’s a well-balanced diet, the right amount of carbs, the right amount of protein, the right amount of Snicker bars. I’m not a get rid of all your sugar or don’t drink any caffeine person. So I think in terms of sort of being data-driven, I would say a generally well-balanced diet.

However, some of these therapies, particularly the TKIs can cause diarrhea. They can cause mouth sores, they might change how you feel. So even though a well-balanced diet is great, we also encourage patients and empower them and their families to follow a diet that’s going to sit well with them given the therapy that they’re on.

So I care about diet much less in the sense of how’s the diet going to affect the cancer and the long-term outcome, and much more in eat the foods that your body will accept. If your body is tolerating more pasta now than it did before, because that helps your gut and therefore you’re able to stay on therapy, wonderful. If you’ve become more of a protein person because that doesn’t instigate the diarrhea, also great. If you need food that has more salt or less spice because of how your mouth feels because of the therapy, then that’s what you need to eat. So really to pay attention to their own bodies and know that whatever they fall on in terms of their diet, again, taking the extremes out of the equation, it’s okay.

Lisa Hatifeld:

You’ve made a lot of patients happy with that response. Thank you.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

I think I may have made a lot of spouses unhappy. But again, I think it’s important to work as a team with the medical team and with family.

Lisa Hatifeld:

Great. Thank you. One last question. A patient is asking, “I’m newly diagnosed and my stage of kidney cancer is unclear as I wait for further review. What questions should I be asking my team? It’s very scary to know you have cancer, but unclear of how serious.”

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

The first thing I would tell this patient is, it’s okay to be scared. And there’s no right or wrong way to feel while you’re waiting for the uncertainty to be settled. Some people have trouble sleeping, some people cry, some people shy away from interacting with their friends and loved ones. And there’s no right and wrong way to respond.

Once you’re comfortable, once a patient is comfortable saying, however I feel emotionally is okay, now we can talk about what you should be asking and what they should be asking. I always try to frame it as what am I looking for in the short term, and what am I looking for in the long term? And I think it’s important to ask the team, ‘Is this cancer something that we’re going to treat with a goal of eliminating it, or is this cancer something that I’m more likely to be on therapy for the long term?”

Again, a short-term question and a long-term question, and the team can give a general overview. I think it’s okay for a doctor to say, I don’t know, or I don’t know yet. I think if you have a doctor that says that, you’re probably very lucky because they’re comfortable being honest and telling you what they know and what they don’t know and what they’re going to do to get the information.

So I would say the questions to ask are, “What’s the next step in the investigations, whether it’s additional scans or additional biopsies? What are the chances that this is something that’s only going to be a short-term issue, and what are the chances that this is something that I’m looking at sort of a chronic condition for the long term?”

Lisa Hatifeld:  

Great. Thank you so much for that answer and showing compassion when you answered that question too. That’s a difficult diagnosis to receive. So thank you for that.

Dr. Ornstein, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and expertise. On behalf of all patients, including myself, a cancer patient, we’re so thankful for the opportunity to listen to your answers, for you to let us ask questions. So we appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Dr. Moshe Ornstein:

Yep. Really my pleasure to be here and thanks so much for the opportunity.

PODCAST: Myeloma Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi

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In this START HERE myeloma program, Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi from Mayo Clinic spotlights priorities in the rapidly expanding myeloma treatment landscape. Watch as Dr. Ailawadhi addresses pressing questions submitted by patients and families, providing invaluable guidance and reassurance in navigating the complexities of myeloma care.

Download Guide  |  Descargar Guía

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Transcript:

Lisa Hatifield:

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program, where we bridge the expert and patient voice to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions of our healthcare teams. The world is complicated, but understanding your multiple myeloma doesn’t have to be. The goal is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of myeloma treatment and survivorship.

Joining me today is Dr. Ailawadhi, back by popular demand. Dr. Ailawadhi is a respected multiple myeloma expert from Mayo Clinic. Dr. Ailawadhi’s career focus includes the treatment of plasma cell disorders like myeloma and understanding the epidemiology and pathophysiology of this disorder. It’s always such a pleasure having you, Dr. Ailawadhi. I’m really excited you’re joining us again. So thank you for joining us.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

And thanks a lot for having me, Lisa. This is excellent. I look forward to this next iteration of the Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. So before we dive into today’s discussion, please take a moment to download the program resource guide using the QR code. This guide contains pertinent information to guide you both before and after the program. And this program will provide you with a comprehensive update on the latest myeloma news and its implications for you and your family. Following that, we’ll launch into some questions that we have received from you.

So let’s start here. Dr. Ailawadhi, at this juncture in myeloma history, we are witnessing unprecedented activity, a surge of new treatment options, and a wealth of insights. Today, we are privileged to have your expertise to help us decipher these developments and shed light on the advancements shaping the landscape of myeloma care. First, we’re going to get a high-level update from Dr. Ailawadhi on what the latest myeloma news means for you and your family. And then we’re going to talk about some questions that you’ve sent in. So let’s get started with the high-level update, Dr. Ailawadhi. Can you speak to the latest news and priorities in the rapidly expanding myeloma treatment landscape?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Excellent. I think, Lisa, that’s an excellent and important question. Because as you rightly mentioned, there is such a large amount of data that is coming through for myeloma all the time. I mean, it’s almost, we kind of talk about the fact that every time you turn your shoulder or look over your shoulder, there is a new drug approved. So I can imagine this can be very overwhelming. So what I’ll say is that in my opinion, there are some categories of new data that are pertinent and important for our patients. 

The two or three out of them that come to my mind, one is what’s called CELMoDs, or there are a couple of agents there called iberdomide, mezigdomide. These are showing some interesting data. Important to keep in mind that they are somewhat related to the immunomodulatory drugs lenalidomide (Revlimid), pomalidomide (Pomalyst), but they’re showing benefit in patients who have had len and pom before and have progressed. So exciting stuff there.

We’re also seeing some interesting data about newer CAR Ts and bispecific antibodies. They are all coming up with some benefits in some cases. I think it’s important to keep in mind that the bispecifics are landing at the 60 to 70 percent response rate, and CAR Ts are typically landing at the 80 to 90 percent response rate, but there are more agents expected.

There are also some newer bispecifics in different classes, like one of them is called cevostamab, which is an FcRH5 inhibitor or targeting bispecific. So newer bispecific, not just more of the same category. And there has also been recent data about Bcl-2 inhibitors, which have been traditionally used for patients with translocation 11;14.

There have been some negative data, negative as in trials, which did not pan out with a drug called venetoclax (Venclexta), but there are two other drugs that had some recent data shown from different companies, which were exciting information. So in my mind, those are kind of the broad new drug categories. There is another, a couple of other quick things that I’ll mention.

One is we’re getting more and more information about real world experience with these new drugs. It’s good to see that CAR Ts are panning out very similar in the real world as they are in clinical trials. We’re also seeing that the side effect profile of a lot of these newer novel immunotherapy drugs is similar as seen in the clinical trials.

Racial ethnic disparities are something which are very close to my heart, and there is more and more information coming out in that. Unfortunately, highlighting the disparities more still rather than yet coming up with solutions. And I think the last thing that I feel which has been recent has been at the American Society of Hematology meeting in 2023, which was in December in San Diego.

One of the myeloma studies actually became a plenary session presentation, which is a pretty big deal for any disease area. So one thing is that it gets highlighted. Secondly, it was a combination of a regimen called isatuximab-irfc (Sarclisa) with carfilzomib (Kyprolis), lenalidomide, and dexamethasone (Decadron) in newly diagnosed patients.

It’s a randomized trial, Phase III, which was presented. I think the important part is we saw unprecedented deep responses and patients in much, much higher numbers than before becoming MRD-negative. So very deep responses. So these are kind of some very broad, but lots of highlights that I talked about.

Lisa Hatfield:  

All right. Thank you. So can you also talk about some of the newer tools for myeloma progression and relapse and what patients might want to know about that? And in particular, maybe talk a bit about MRD testing and the role of MRD testing for patients who relapse.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Excellent question. Lisa, I think the first and foremost thing an important part for our patients to learn is what are their “tumor markers,” for the, or disease markers for myeloma. We can follow myeloma by either the M spike or monoclonal protein, by light chains, by monoclonal protein in the urine or blood. And it’s important to keep that in mind because every now and then we’ll see patients who say, Hey, my ratio changed. So I’m progressing. Well, that comes after the light chains change. So it’s important to understand the role of these things.

So M spike in the urine, M spike in the serum and light chains. One of them is typically the marker for a patient. Now the MRD status or minimal residual disease that is looking for one cell, one myeloma cell from amongst 100,000 cells in the bone marrow. So it is looking at a very deep level. The most important benefit of MRD testing right now is to understand that if a patient turns MRD negative, then they have a superior outcome. Their prognosis is better. Their progression free survival, or the time before their disease comes back is longer. 

But when a patient is MRD-negative and is being followed or maintenance or whatever, if the bone marrow turns MRD-positive, then that might be the sign that the disease might be coming back. Right now, we do not keep switching drugs to get to MRD-negative. That is not the goal of treatment. The way to think about it is we want to get to MRD-negative, but that means it’s incumbent upon us to try and pick a regimen that is more likely to get to MRD-negative. That’s the way to think about it.

Let’s pick a regimen more likely to get us into MRD-negative and hope that we get to MRD-negative. We see every now and then that the patients keep switching regimens just to get to MRD-negative. That’s not the way to go because you’re just using up options too quickly, too fast. A common question that patients ask is, well, does that mean I need to get annual bone marrow biopsies and MRD testing? Probably not.

That’s too much testing. So what I suggest is that once somebody has turned MRD-negative, it’s important to keep an eye on every single thing. Now, change in any of the routine labs, imaging, new symptoms, etcetera. That’s when we switch to the bone marrow again and see if the patient has turned MRD-positive. There are clinical trials going on right now which are stopping drugs based on repeat MRD negativity or starting drugs on MRD positivity. But those are clinical trial questions.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that. So along those same lines, since you’re a Mayo physician, I’m curious about the mass spec testing. So if a patient say has been MRD-negative for some time, still wants to monitor at a deeper level, even though it’s not commercialized yet, do you see a role for mass spec testing on a regular basis in the future and being rolled out to community facilities also?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely, Lisa. I did not specifically bring it up because mass spec is not, like you rightly said, is not yet commercially available. Now we’re doing mass spec quite frequently at Mayo Clinic. Basically mass spec is taking up a blood sample. Important to keep in mind, it’s not a bone marrow test, it’s a blood test, but it looks for those abnormal proteins based on the protein weight at a much, much lower level. Our SPEP or serum protein electrophoresis does not pick up very small quantities of the protein mass spec does. So in an essence, the mass spec, if somebody is negative on that, turning mass spec negative to mass spec positive may be an earlier sign of the disease coming back rather than the SPEP yet turning positive. But as you rightly said, it is not yet commercially available. I do see the benefit of it.

There is more and more data coming in favor of it, and there was data that was also at ASH. So I do see that in the future we’ll be able to most likely have it available more widely. At this point, it is just a blood test to attempt to check the disease level at a much deeper level and be able to notice if the disease is progressing sooner than our currently available tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you. And as a patient, I like to have one more data point that they can get from my blood, not from my bone marrow to assess the disease. So thank you for explaining that. Regarding survivorship, patients are living longer with myeloma in general because of the novel therapies that have come out in the past few years. So how is myeloma survivorship evolving, and what’s different now than it was five or 10 years ago in terms of treatment planning?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Yeah, I think it’s very important to keep that in mind. When I see a newly diagnosed patient, I’m not just telling them, “Hey, this is your induction therapy, and your transplant is the goal.’ We’re trying our best to decide that patient’s life journey with myeloma over the next 10, 15 and hopefully more years. So we’re trying to pick and choose the regimen that is most likely going to help the patient the most today and most likely will give a longer duration of the response. So when you say survivorship, that also very importantly brings up the point that patients are living with myeloma longer. We have to manage their health overall. So looking for any side effects from treatment, managing them very well so the patient is able to stay on the treatment and maintain good quality of life.

There are actually, are clinical trials looking at stopping treatment when there is a very deep, prolonged response. Again, going towards survivorship and giving the patient’s quality of life. There is looking for other cancers. In fact, I had a patient in the clinic and we were talking about just myeloma in general and I was telling them, “Okay, please remember you may not want to do a colonoscopy, but you already have one myeloma cancer diagnosis. The risk of subsequent cancers is always there in any cancer patient.” So that was a male person. So I said, “Okay, please do not miss your colonoscopy. Please do not miss your prostate screening and whatever is age-appropriate must be done.” So managing everything because myeloma is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.

We want to make sure that we pace ourselves well so we manage all the symptoms, all the signs. Bone health becomes much, much more important because the same bone structure is now going to carry us longer and many more years. And as you rightly said, planning, which treatment comes first, which comes next, when does CAR T come? It’s not that everybody must get CAR T today. That’s not the answer. So what to use when becomes extremely more important.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. And thank you, Dr. Ailawadhi, for that important reminder. All of you watching, get your regular screenings, like he said, prostate cancer, mammograms, colonoscopies, get it done. So thank you for that.

One of the things that comes up with that regular, not regular screening, but monitoring after certain therapies for future malignancies, there’s been some discussions about post-CAR T, particularly with T-cell malignancies and monitoring for that. Can you just give a little description of that and any concerns that you have with that or any encouragement you have regarding that and whether that weighs into your treatment options that you give to patients when they are asking about CAR T therapy?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely. Extremely important question, Lisa. This really had a lot of discussion going on. It’s been going on for the past few months now. Okay. So first let’s explain the landscape. The FDA reviewed CAR T-cell treatment because of the fact that there were about 19 T-cell malignancies noted in several thousand patients.

Out of those 19 cases of T-cell malignancies, there was one case of multiple myeloma to the best of my knowledge. Now, risk of subsequent cancers is something, unfortunately, every cancer patient lives with, but in myeloma, we have known about that, especially from our historical knowledge of second malignancies with lenalidomide-based maintenance therapy post-transplant. So subsequent malignancies have always been a risk. There is some risk that is being talked about with CAR T, but frankly speaking, the way I look at it, the risk is significantly lesser than the potential benefit.

Because remember when these CAR T therapies, the two agents got approved in myeloma, they were approved in a situation that there was no standard therapy. And we saw somewhere about 70, 75 percent response rate with one of them and about 98 percent response rate with the other one. So in a setting where there was nothing, you can see the degree of benefit. And the risk of second malignancies is relatively small. So we must discuss this.

A patient must be aware of it, but I think the benefit is way more than the risk. So we document, we discuss, we have specific documentation that we do and specific information that we share with patients, but I think still the benefit is significantly more than the risk.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you so much for explaining that. And for any of you out there watching this, Dr. Ailawadhi is a myeloma specialist, and I highly encourage anybody who is looking at CAR T therapy or even for a first consult for myeloma, seek out even one consult from a myeloma specialist. It is so important in trying to understand these therapies and any fears you may have regarding those therapies and the risks of that. So really appreciate that, Dr. Ailawadhi. Thank you. So I think it’s time now to start answering questions from patients that we received from all of you in the audience.

Please remember, this is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your medical team. And we are going to jump right in, Dr. Ailawadhi. We have a lot of questions from patients here and I’ll just start with the first one. This patient is asking, my M spike keeps rising in spite of chemo. What can I do?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Very important question, Lisa. Every patient must understand what their disease marker is. This patient is asking about the M spike, which is the monoclonal spike, whether it’s in the blood or in the urine. And if the M spike is continuing to increase and there is a significant increase, significant is defined by at least 25 percent from the nadir or from the bottom most point with the, at least a absolute increase of 0.5 gram per deciliter. So half a gram per deciliter. So we want a 25 percent increase, but we also want at least 0.5 gram per deciliter.

So if somebody had an M spike of one at their best point, then the increase to 1.5 is significant. If somebody had the M spike of 0.2, then it’s not the 25 percent increase, it’s the 0.5 that must happen. So they hit 0.7 and that’s a significant increase. So that’s how we think about M spike, 25 percent with an absolute of at least 0.5 gram per deciliter.

If that is indeed happening, this would be considered a biochemical progression. And at that point, it should be considered to switch around the treatment because we don’t want the disease to grow to the point that there are actually symptoms showing up or organ damage happening. We want to be able to capture the disease progression sooner and act upon it.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Do you have any recommendations for people who, as we might have some patients watching this, who are light chain only? Any guidelines on if those numbers are rising?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

That’s an excellent question too. So if somebody has light chains as their marker, we are looking at an increase in the involved serum free light chain. So if somebody has kappa as their marker, the kappa is going up, or if they have lambda as the marker, the lambda is going up. Typically, if both of them go up, that is not disease progression. That could be coming from kidney dysfunction. Somebody is dehydrated and they get labs checked. Both kappa and lambda might be elevated. Again, a 25 percent increase in the absolute. But at the same time, we are also looking at at least 10 milligram per deciliter change.

So if somebody had a light chain of two milligram per deciliter, if it goes to 12, that might be a significant change. But I can say that light chains are a little bit more volatile and they do get affected by our fluid status. So if I ever notice a patient with a light chain increase, I’m more likely to repeat the test very soon, maybe even at a couple of days, one week interval, just to make sure that there is a trend rather than just a fluctuating light chain.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you for that information.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

And I should maybe, very quickly add, we do not check light chains in the urine. Light chains should be checked in the blood. Urine light chains are very nonspecific and there’s no need to test them.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. That’s helpful also. So patients don’t have to walk around with their big orange jugs full of fluids. So thank you. All right. This might be a complicated question to answer. But in general terms, for those who relapse for the first time, what are the best treatment options?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

I think that’s a very important, and I can imagine a scary situation. So somebody who relapses in general, not just even the first time, the factors that are taken into account for deciding what treatment they should get, there are broadly three categories of factors. Patient factors deciding what’s the age, what’s the other comorbidities, are they diabetic, are they heart disease, kidney dysfunction, because those things go into the decision of what may or may not be given. So patient factors.

Also importantly, how close are you to your treatment center? Can you come in for infusion or injection drugs time? And again, can you prefer or do you prefer oral drugs only? Et cetera. Those things become important. Then that…so that’s patient factors and disease factors. How fast is the progression? Is it high-risk disease, standard risk disease? Is it biochemical progression like the previous person asked?

Or is it actually a clinical progression in which there’s kidney dysfunction or anemia or bone disease? Because the choices and the urgency of treatment may change. So patient factors, disease factors, and then drug factors are the third class or third category, which is what have you had before? How long have you been on it? Are you on maintenance or not? Is your disease considered refractory to a certain agent, meaning resistant to a certain agent? Typically, if you were on a treatment and your disease is progressing, that same drug may not be used again.

And there are some times that we will reuse a drug, but generally not. We can use the same class, but we may not typically use the same drug. So I think the choice of treatment depends on all of those factors put in. And then we come up with one or two or three regimens and we discuss them with patients. And, of course, being an academic, physician, I must say there is always, you must always seek out good clinical trials if they’re available to you. That is the way our field moves forward.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes, thank you for that information. So we have another patient asking, “Do myeloma patients require multiple prior therapies prior to being eligible for CAR T?” And what’s the rationale for not implementing CAR T immediately, which probably has to do with FDA approval based on clinical trials at this point?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely. You’re absolutely right, Lisa. So any drug, let alone CAR T, any drug can only be given in the situation that it is approved by the FDA. So basically in accordance with that drug’s FDA approval label. Currently, CAR T-cell therapy is approved in the U.S. after at least four prior lines of therapy. And the patient must have had treatment with at least one proteasome inhibitor,  for which we have three drugs, bortezomib (Velcade), ixazomib (Ninlaro), and carfilzomib. They must have been treated with at least one prior immunomodulatory drug; lenalidomide, thalidomide (Thalomid), pomalidomide. And they must have been previously treated by at least one monoclonal antibody, daratumumab (Darzalex) or Isatuximab (Sarclisa).

Once the patient has had all these criteria met, they’ve become a candidate for CAR T-cell therapy. Frankly, we cannot just use a drug anywhere because we cannot use a drug where it has not shown to be of benefit. And importantly, it has not shown to be of any risk. So CAR T-cell therapy in the first line setting is being studied in clinical trials, but is not FDA-approved. Currently approved only after four prior lines, but the FDA is reviewing data for both the CAR T’s to see if they may be available sooner. As of right now, that approval is still pending.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. We’re hopeful that that will happen soon.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Hopeful.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah. So interesting question from a patient, “Does CAR-T therapy actually change one’s DNA?”

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

No. The CAR T therapy does not change one’s DNA. What happens is, there are T cells taken out of a patient. The DNA of those T cells is modified and then those T cells are given back to the patient. Those T cells do not go and integrate into your other healthy body cells or your stem cells, et cetera. Those T cells, it’s almost like giving a boost of immunity, which is targeted against your myeloma. So those T cells go in and they fill those myeloma cells. Now we hope that those T cells perpetuate and teach or create some memory T cells and that immunity lasts a little bit longer. But all of that genetic modification stays within the T cells. It does not integrate anywhere else.

Now, I know there was a previous question about T-cell lymphomas, that is related to this question in a way because the risk that is theoretical is, that that genetic modification in the T cells might make those T cells replicate uncontrollably leading to a T-cell cancer or T-cell lymphoma. But I’m saying that this is theoretical because while it is possible, it happens extremely rarely and even in the cases where the cancer happened, it has been seen that the cancer may not come from that portion of the DNA that was…that’s where the modification was done. So, low risk.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you very much for that.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. So what would be the next steps, Dr. Ailawadhi for a patient who’s had CAR T and reaches a relapse state or is relapsed?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Yep. This is something, unfortunately is the truth of the matter in myeloma at least that we are, we don’t seek cures. We have had some long remissions. I have, for example, patients who are now reaching three, three-and-a-half years of remission on CAR T treatment who received it on clinical trials even before they got FDA-approved.

But, unfortunately, the disease does come back. So what happens is, we are seeing data that the novel, other novel immunotherapies like bispecific antibodies, even the ones who go after the same target as CAR T, BCMA targeting bispecifics, they do have some response rates, good response rates in post CAR T setting. So the bispecific antibodies by themselves may give us 60 to 65 percent response, but in the post CAR T setting, that response might go down to 40, 45 percent. So less responses, but still possible.

There are also bispecific antibody. There is one available, which is not against BCMA, it is against GPRC5D. That’s a bispecific called talquetamab-tgvs (Talvey). So a novel target. There is…there are of course a lot of clinical trials. There are some clinical trials that are even looking at CAR T post-CAR T. So different kind of a CAR T. Those clinical trials are going out. So what I would suggest is that if your disease progresses after CAR T-cell treatment, you should very strongly consider getting to a specialist myeloma center and get an opinion like you mentioned, Lisa.

That is so important because the choice of treatment is extremely important at that time. And we are trying our best to sequence all the options we have, in a way, actually one of my patients mentioned, one of these days, Hey, does that mean that I’m basically buying time till something new and exciting comes along? And I said in a way that is true. That we are trying to stretch all our treatments and get to the point that something new and promising just like CAR T comes, and hopefully we get longer benefits again.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. So when you say there’s a possibility of CAR T and then a post-CAR T maybe a second CAR T. Would that be a different target then?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So there could be a different target. I have, in fact, just yesterday I saw a patient who had received one CAR T in a clinical trial and then they were subsequently able to receive a CAR T standard of care, which had been FDA approved. So they used different CAR Ts, but one was in clinical trials and one was standard of care.

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh, great. Okay. Again, important to see a myeloma specialist to tease out all this information. Thank you. All right. This patient is asking, “I’m 81 and living with comorbidities. The myeloma was diagnosed after bone marrow test. How is treatment fitness determined?” And also a question about that is if you’re given an ECOG status of something you don’t like it, can that be improved after you’ve had treatment?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Absolutely.

Lisa Hatfield:

Maybe be eligible for a trial or something.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Correct. Correct. That is so important. When this patient mentioned that they’re 81-year-old and they’re living with comorbidities, I think, so when I’m talking to a patient who’s new to me, it’s very important for me to try to tease out what was their performance status or their fitness status prior to myeloma. Because my goal is to try to get them as close to that as possible. Now if this patient is saying that they were already quite frail before the diagnosis of myeloma and myeloma is added to the frailty, then it becomes a little tricky because we’re starting in a difficult spot. We do determine fitness by asking questions, simple questions like, what can a patient do at baseline? Can they do grocery store or grocery shopping by themselves? Can they walk around the block? Do they get short of breath? Et cetera.

And frankly, there are 81-year-olds who are playing golf every day and are fitter than me. So I’m just saying that age by itself is not the criteria. And, Lisa, like you rightly mentioned, if there are fitness issues coming from the disease itself, then that’s the time that we actually have to work with the treatment, get the treatment started, and then assess the fitness a couple of months later, a couple of cycles later. Because the treatment may have worked and may have improved the fitness quite a bit.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great thank you for that. So this person is asking, their husband is starting maintenance therapy, so I am assuming they just finished induction therapy, having leg pains mostly at night. Could this be a form of peripheral neuropathy or is maybe from bisphosphonates or from any of the medications that maybe were used during induction?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So, excellent question. So, this is almost going back to that survivorship question that we discussed earlier, that it’s so important to manage the side effects and maintain quality of life. So, a lot of patients with myeloma will say that I have cramping or symptoms or some pins and needles at night more so. Part of it is because body’s at rest, relaxed, things, symptoms become more focused. Yes, it could be peripheral neuropathy, but at the same time certain drugs caused muscle cramping or what’s called myalgias, sometimes maintenance therapies can cause that.

It’s important for somebody to be able to determine is it coming from muscles or nerves? Is it coming because some electrolytes are abnormal. Like one of the common things is low magnesium or low potassium can cause neuropathy, for example, or cramping. I’ve had patients who will get some over-the-counter lotions or some forms et cetera, which are infused with some electrolytes and say that they feel some benefit. So topical things are good. So I think it’s important to figure out is it muscle or nerve and is it coming from drugs or disease? And that’s where your physician can help tease it out.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So we have a patient who is talking about her genetic abnormalities, but has been through both auto and allo stem cell transplant in the last two years and has relapsed. And is asking, “Can CAR T-cell therapy help me?” And would she even be eligible for CAR T therapy given the allotransplant?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

That’s an important question. So first of all, sorry to hear that, that your disease is behaving that aggressively, that you’ve had both the transplants in the past two years and still having issues. So yes, CAR T can still be used after an allotransplant. There are some criteria. You should not be on any graft versus host suppressive medications, and you should not have any active graft versus host disease going on. So depending on those, yes patients can get CAR T post. And, in fact, I’ve had a couple of patients who’ve had CAR T after allotransplant.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. I’m sure that’ll give this patient some hope. Are there any studies showing that treatment can be tapered? Tapered to by daily, once 90 percent reduction in myeloma has occurred with various therapies. So in general, you may know what medication this patient’s talking about, but is that possible to do that, to taper therapy?

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

So, absolutely, first of all, in myeloma care, Lisa, you had mentioned initially that as somebody went to maintenance, they have had induction. So there are these terms used for categories of treatment, induction, consolidation, maintenance. But if the disease gets controlled adequately at a certain time point, the treatment can be modified to a maintenance. It depends on the regimen.

Some regimens, for example, we are able to get rid of the steroids after a certain time and then in certain regimens the drugs can be reduced in dose or frequency, et cetera. All of the drugs we use have maintenance regimens and maintenance doses. But I should put a word of caution there. I see very frequently that the moment the labs improve, this quote unquote “maintenance” is brought in.

That’s not the right way to do things. The right way is to go back to the clinical trial based on which this regimen was started. And according to that clinical trial, after however many cycles of treatment the maintenance was supposed to happen, it should happen. So if I’ll very quickly say if somebody stays, starts on a regimen and within four months their M spike comes down, and now it has plateaued. Because our drugs are so good that they work that fast. And somebody says, “Okay, four months of that is enough, let’s save it for the future. Let’s go to maintenance.” I would say, “Absolutely not.”

In fact, there is data suggested from a couple of regimens that if significant modifications were made prior to one year of the regimen, then the outcomes were inferior. And I’m not going in specific regimens and I’m not saying that that is applicable to everything, but what I’m saying is, yes, maintenance and tapering is possible. In fact, there are clinical trials looking at even stopping medication. But when and how that change is to be made is very very important. It’s critical. If your physician is not comfortable about that time point, reach out to a myeloma specialist. They should be able to guide when and how to reduce or taper or put on maintenance.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. And that’s very important what you said about induction therapy. Go back to the clinical trial and look and see what the clinical trial said as far as how long that treatment should last because it is exciting as a patient when you start seeing those numbers dropping exponentially. They’re just plummeting, and you want to go off it, you don’t feel great. It’s hard to stay on a therapy for 6 to 12 months that you don’t really enjoy and nobody really does. So that’s important. And then maybe talk about maintenance therapy later. It would be nice to have limited duration maintenance, sometime in the future for induction therapy. Stick with what the clinical trial says. So, okay, this patient is asking another really important question, “I have myeloma and now my daughter does as well. She’s 37, is multiple myeloma hereditary?”

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

I’m sorry to hear about this situation and I’m so sorry that your daughter who’s 37 got diagnosed. There is a small, very small number of very young patients and I’m saying using this term very young, which is just a generic thing that I’ve said because myeloma median age of diagnosis 68. I saw a patient who was diagnosed at 33 and they’re 40 now and they’ve already gone through every single thing that they can think of. And we were talking about clinical trials. So, typically myeloma is not hereditary. It is not something that is passed along through the generations. But what I would say is that there is, if this sort of a situation is happening that you have myeloma and now your daughter has it at a young age, it is important for you to consider getting genetic counseling.

So a genetic counsel for them to be able to look deeper into it. There is not a very standard specific test, so for me to say, Hey, you go and get this genetic test done and that’ll find out this mutation, whatever. But it’s important to get, go through some genetic counseling for them to be able to look a little bit deeper, some next-generation sequencing, what is called germline testing or somatic testing. They should be able to compare both the parent and the daughter’s disease as well as what’s called germline, which is their native DNA, which they were born with, to see if there is anything that jumps out of that. But that would be important to go through at a larger cancer center or if that service is available through your local physician also. That would be great.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Well, I think that’s it for our questions. That’s all that we have time for. But Dr. Ailawadhi, thank you so much for once again, being part of our Patient Empowerment Network START HERE Program. Because it really is these kinds of conversations that help patients, me included, feel more empowered to take questions back to our providers and our healthcare team. So thank you so much for joining us and thank you out there to everybody who’s watching this program, we appreciate you and we appreciate your time and expertise.

Dr. Sikander Ailawadhi:

Thanks and I look forward to the next time.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network Program and we look forward to seeing you again soon.

PODCAST: Head & Neck Cancer: What Do You Need to Know About Evolving Treatment and Research?

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Head and neck cancer research is evolving rapidly, leading to expanded treatment options for patients. Expert and researcher Dr. Ezra Cohen discusses key factors that impact head and neck cancer treatment decisions, reviews emerging research, and provides tips for collaborating with your healthcare team.
 
Dr. Ezra Cohen is a medical oncologist, head and neck cancer researcher and Chief Medical Officer of Oncology at Tempus Labs.

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Transcript:

Katherine:                  

Hello, and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. As patients collaborate on treatment decisions with their healthcare team, it’s important that they understand all of their options and how these options may be impacted by research developments. And that’s why the Patient Empowerment Network, or PEN, created the Evolve series. To arm you with the latest information and help you feel empowered and confident during conversations about your care. In today’s program, we’re going to hear from an expert in the field about the evolving treatment landscape and discuss how you can play an active role in your care.

Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to program materials. If you haven’t already, click that link to access a guide to help you follow along during the webinar. At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey.

Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars. And finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what may be best for you.

Well, let’s meet our guest today, Dr. Ezra Cohen. Dr. Cohen, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Thanks very much. Thanks for the invitation. So, I am Ezra Cohen. I am a medical oncologist and have been involved in head and neck cancer research for about 20 years in the laboratory and in the clinic. And it’s been my main focus of research for that time period.

Thanks for having me.

Katherine:                  

Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to join us today. As you know, head and neck cancer research has been progressing quickly. What recent developments do you think patients should know about?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Well, there are a lot, really. And I think probably the first and foremost is the impact that immunotherapy is having on treatment for head and neck cancer. And that is mostly in the form of a drug called pembrolizumab (Keytruda). It’s an anti-PD1 antibody that really – what it does is stimulate a specific cell type in the immune system called T cells. And now, it’s approved for the treatment of patients with recurrent or metastatic disease. However, for patients, I think probably the most important development over the last little while is the realization of the important of the multidisciplinary team in the management of patients with head and neck cancer.

It used to be that the care was driven by a single oncologist or a single individual, but over the last, I would say mostly over the last decade, maybe a little but more than that. There’s becoming this realization more and more and the implementation, of course, of these multidisciplinary approaches involving a surgeon, a radiation oncologist, a medical oncologist, but much more than that. A speech and language pathologist, a swallowing expert, nutritionist, psychologist, pharmacists, dentists, of course oral surgeons.

With the, now, the prospective data to validate that in a multidisciplinary setting, with a multidisciplinary tumor board where each patient is discussed with all of these individuals providing input. The outcomes are substantially better. And so, for patients, I think that that’s had the greatest impact, because we’re talking about patients who can be cured for the most part.

And those cure rates increasing just simply by getting the right people involved in their care.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. Very important, then. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, patients should be aware of all of their options. How can patients stay informed as the treatment landscape expands and changes?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Yeah. It’s challenging because not only are patients and their caregivers grappling with this diagnosis, and it’s a brand-new world for almost all of them. Many patients have never had to deal with cancer ever before. Pile onto that the functional and social aspects of having head and neck cancer. Remember this is a cancer that affects so much of what makes us human – our ability to communicate, to speak, to eat, to swallow. And so, now, patients are flung into this situation, and it is challenging to find good information.

Having said that, often the oncologists that are involved in the person’s care should be a great source of information, especially if those oncologists have experience treating head and neck cancer. And incidentally, just as an aside, there is also data and mounting data that the more experienced a center is in treating head and neck cancer, the better the outcomes. And so, that’s something that patients may want to think about as they choose their providers.

But then there are also public sources. There are support groups for head and neck cancer. The Head and Neck Cancer Alliance is one of those. SPOHNC is another and they’re excellent sources of information for patients. American Cancer Society is always a very good source of information, mostly for cancer basics but they do have the pages that are dedicated to head and neck cancer.

And then the American Society of Clinical Oncology, or ASCO, actually does have a patient-facing part of their organization, and that can help not only with information about the disease, but it can also help find providers that have a specific interest in this type of cancer.

Katherine:                  

Those are all great resources. Thank you. A key part of research moving forward is the clinical trial process. Can you talk about the benefits of patient participation?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Of course. And I’m certainly a firm believer. It’s been part of what I’ve been doing for, again, over 20 years. And, so, certainly I think clinical trials are a critical component of our ability to produce better outcomes and move forward. The sobering reality is that only 3  percent of adult patients actually participate in clinical trials.

Katherine:                  

Wow.

Dr. Cohen:                  

And if we’re really going to move the field forward and be where we want to be with cancer, and that is to either cure as many people as we can or turn cancer into a chronic disease, better yet in many individuals, detect it early and prevent it. We need much greater participation in clinical trials. So, that being said, nothing is going to happen, we are not going to make strides forward in therapeutics and diagnostics, whatever in prevention, without clinical trials. Even the basic standards of care that we engage in now, and I mentioned that drug pembrolizumab, that was approved on the basis of a large randomized clinical trial.

Now, having said that, I think patients – part of the responsibility is on patients to ask their provider, “Well, what about clinical trials?” There is almost always a clinical trial that is available given a specific setting. The challenge is that it may not be available where the patient is seeking care. And there is a large disconnect in that regard.

Now, there are different organizations that are trying to improve that, improve the diversity of participation in clinical trials and the equality of availability of clinical trials to the entire population, not just people going to large academic medical centers. But, that’s the first thing I would tell patients, is part of the list of questions that you have for your provider, especially at the beginning and throughout the entire process, is there a clinical trial that would be applicable to my situation?

And if the answer is, “Well, no.” The follow-up should be, “Well, what about in the area?” Or, “What about something that may not necessarily be available in this practice but what about somewhere else in town or somewhere I could access?” Of course, that may not be possible for all patients. But if it is, I would encourage all people to ask that question. And then there is a large responsibility, I think, on providers to make clinical trials available if we’re going to improve that number from 3 percent.

There are a lot of exciting agents being studied now in head and neck cancer – immunotherapy drugs, antibody drug conjugates, novel mechanisms, cell therapies, vaccines. So, there’s certainly no paucity of interest in developing drugs in head and neck cancer and technologies as well. So, there are clinical trials available, and I think we, as a community, need to make a – need to do better in enrolling patients on those studies.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. Before we talk about the currently available treatment options, I think for many people there’s confusion about what neck and head cancer is. How would you describe this group of cancers?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Yeah. And we do make it confusing, a little bit. So, the confusion is well-founded. When I talk about head and neck cancer, and I think when most of us talk about head and neck cancer, we’re really thinking about three major cancer types. The first is mucosal squamous cell carcinoma. I’ll get into that in just a second. The second is thyroid cancer, and the third are salivary gland cancers. Those are the cancers that I primarily see in my head/neck cancer clinic. We don’t see brain cancer. A lot of people think, “Well, head and neck cancer should include brain cancer.” Brain cancer really is a completely different entity, different biology, different set of physicians, different set of treatments.

And so, the way I explain it simply is everything above the clavicles but not the brain. Having said that, the majority of patients that we see in our clinic, do have squamous cell carcinoma. And those cancers start in the lining of the mouth and the throat. So, tongue cancer, throat cancer, larynx cancer, those all fall under head and neck cancer, and those are the most common malignancies that we see.

Katherine:                  

How are innovations in technologies accelerating head and neck cancer research?

Dr. Cohen:

I think, in many ways. First there’s – we mentioned the multidisciplinary approach of head and neck cancer. and each of the disciplines, the major therapeutic disciplines, being medical oncology, radiation and surgery, really have had dramatic technological advances in the last, certainly in the last decade, maybe a little bit longer.

For the surgery, it’s been the ability to do minimally invasive surgery, usually through a robot called transoral resection. And this is, as the name implies, literally a robot that’s controlled at the side of the operating room or even sometimes controlled remotely. But the advantage is that the instrument is much smaller than the human hand, and it can articulate in every degree possible. Which, obviously, the human hand has restrictions.

So, in other words, that robot can get into places and get into areas that would be very difficult without a much bigger surgery if done without the robot. And now, that surgery called TORS, transoral robotic surgery, has become pretty well, pretty standard for cancers of the base of the tongue and the oral pharynx.

That is really the back of the throat. Whereas in the past, in order to access those areas, the patient’s jaw would have to have been split, and the area had been opened. Now, that’s not necessary at all, and the surgery has turned into a much, much faster recovery with equivalent oncologic outcomes. And, of course, there’s more advancements going on in that regard.

For radiation, I think the most relevant technological advances have been the ability to focus radiation through different means on the tumor and spare normal tissue. Whether that’s with something called IMRT, which is essentially a much more sophisticated way to deliver radiation that is controlled by a computer that allows the radiation fields to be contoured around structures in a 3D fashion, much more than we were able to do prior to that.

And, of course, the other way is to use a different type of energy. Whereas conventional radiation, when we talk about radiation, we’re talking about photons. Protons, now, are becoming more widely available. And that particle has a different way to deliver energy and can actually spare normal tissue but still deliver the energy desired to the tumor. So, tremendous advances in radiation.

And then, of course, for medical oncologists, we’ve had advancements in both diagnostics and in therapeutics. 10 years ago, sequencing a cancer, deciphering the genes that drive it, the mutations that drive it, was uncommon. And, in fact, even I dare say, frowned upon by the community.

But now, there isn’t a patient that I see who has recurrent or metastatic disease that I don’t sequence. I sequence them all.

Katherine:                  

Wow.

Dr. Cohen:                  

Because the technology is readily available and quite honestly, it gives us more information that we might be able to apply to the treatment of that patient. So, that’s been a very large, a very big advancement. And then, of course, therapeutically we’ve had different agents that we’ve been able to look at. I mentioned immunotherapy. There are many new drugs that are being tested and hopefully very soon even approved for patients with head and neck cancer.

Katherine:                  

That’s great. I want to mention to our viewers that if you want more basic information, PEN has created a head and neck caner toolkit, which includes information about diagnosis and staging. And you can find it at powerfulpatients.org. So, Dr. Cohen, I’d like to move onto treatment approaches, and you’ve already mentioned some of them.

What is the typical route for a head and neck cancer patient? Does it start with surgery?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Well, it really depends. And what I said is that head and neck cancer, for the most part, is a locally advanced disease. And I say that because it has certain implications about the way we think about treating patients. And what I mean by that is that the great majority of patients with head and neck cancer will initially present with either a localized tumor or a tumor with involved lymph nodes.

In other words, and that’s 90 percent, 90 percent of patients will present that way. In other words, it’s actually uncommon for patients with head and neck cancer to present with metastatic disease. That’s different than many other cancers. Lung cancer, pancreatic cancer, breast cancer, many times in those situations, patients when they come to the attention of a physician, unfortunately, already have metastatic disease. That’s not the case with head and neck.

And so, what does that mean to have a disease that’s locally advanced? Well, the most important thing, the first thing, is that most patients, we are going to be treating with curative intent. That is, we’re going to try to cure the disease. The second thing is that the disease, and its treatment, are going to have functional outcomes, potentially for that patient.

And that gets back to something I was saying before in terms of think about how much of how we define being human happens above the clavicles. It’s really what makes us human. And so that has dramatic implications obviously for the patient. So, for head and neck cancer, the fact that it’s a locally advanced disease means that we’re going to think about curing the majority of patients, at least try to. But, we’re also going to think very strongly about how can we preserve those critical organs of swallowing and speaking and socializing?

It also is a disease that tends to recur or come back in a locally advanced fashion. And that’s the other part of why I call it a locally advanced disease. So, unfortunately, oftentimes when head and neck cancer recurs, and obviously we try to avoid that, it comes back in the same area. And, of course that has the same implications for what we try to do with treating patients.

Katherine:                 

So, even using radiation and chemotherapy, other immunotherapies, the cancer will still come back?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Yeah. Yeah. And I realized I didn’t really answer your question in terms of the approach to the patient. I just gave you some general guidelines. So, let me step back and talk a little bit about that. And then we can talk about the integration of different modalities.

Katherine:                  

Sure.

Dr. Cohen:                  

The approach really, it depends on a few things. The primary is really where the tumor is, where the primary tumor is.

nd the reason behind that is what I as saying about the functional outcome. For instance, if somebody has a small tumor of their tongue, of the front of their tongue let’s say, a surgeon can easily remove that and the patient can continue to speak and swallow normally. And so, in cases like that, obviously we would do surgery first and then, if the patient needed it for whatever reason, we might follow up with radiation or chemotherapy.

The converse is true for a tumor that may be farther back in the throat. So, let’s say an area called the oropharynx that involves the throat that you can see, the part of the throat that you can see when you open your mouth widely. Well, if we take out a tumor there, that will have much more significant implications for long-term function. The patient may not be able to swallow or speak normally again.

And so, for those types of tumors, we would take a non-surgical approach. Not that surgery couldn’t be done, it could. But, sometimes it’s better not to do surgery up front to preserve function. So, again, it’s those two goals that we have to keep in mind. We want to cure the cancer, but we want to preserve function.

Katherine:                  

Right.

Dr. Cohen:                  

Then you mentioned about chemotherapy, radiation, immunotherapy. And in a non-surgical approach, that’s what we would do first. We would do either radiation therapy alone, or radiation and chemotherapy. And that primarily depends on how extensive the cancer is. The more advanced it is, the more likely we are to add chemotherapy. Because we know from clinical trials, getting back to the importance of clinical trials, we know that adding chemotherapy in advanced cancers does improve survival. And so, that’s predicated on really where the cancer is and how large it is.

Katherine:                  

What about treating more advanced disease? Are the choices different?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Sure. Well, let’s define what we mean by more advanced. If the cancer is still localized, so even if it’s advanced, let’s say it’s a large tumor that’s invading other structures. Let’s say there’s a lot of lymph nodes involved. We would still take – assuming the patient, ultimately, it’s always the patient’s decision. We would recommend to the patient often that we try to take a curative approach. And that curative approach in quite locally advanced cancers would almost involve everybody, so, chemotherapy, radiation ,and surgery. Almost always involve those things to try to eradicate the cancer. If we’re talking about an advanced cancer in the sense that the cancer had come back, so it’s recurrent or it had metastasized, then we really are talking about mostly systemic therapy or some sort of drug therapy.

And now, that almost for all patients, includes immunotherapy. Again, based on the results of clinical trials. That’s relatively new. That’s been approved now for about five years, maybe six. But it has led to dramatic improvements in outcome for these patients. Now, when we look at the long-term data from these clinical trials, we’re beginning to see that about one in five patients with recurrent or metastatic disease are still alive five, six, even seven years later. That’s something that we did not see in the past. And so, immunotherapy has been a tremendous advance forward. Now, of course, the other side of that is four out of five patients are still dying so we clearly need to do better. But the fact that one out of five is surviving is amazing.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It’s a lot. It’s a lot to take in and consider. And I can’t imagine how difficult it is for the patients and the caregivers. So, now that we understand what the approaches are, how is a path decided then or determined for an individual patient? Is there key lab testing that can impact prognosis and treatment options?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Once a patient comes to the attention of the team, and that will usually be accompanied by some sort of biopsy, some sort of pathological diagnosis to confirm that indeed, we’re dealing with let’s say, squamous cell carcinoma. Then the next thing we want to do is we want to stage the disease. And what that means is basically we want to know as much as possible, or accurately as possible, where the cancer is and how big it is.

So, that would almost always involve scans, usually CT scans, sometimes a PET scan. And we can talk about the advantages and disadvantages of each. Sometimes an MRI in certain situations. But suffice it to say some sort of scan. Some sort of imaging that can tell us where the cancer is, how big it is, if there are any lymph nodes involved and if that cancer has spread beyond the head and neck area. Once we stage the disease, most patients, and I think certainly most patients should be discussed, their pace, that is, should be discussed at a multidisciplinary tumor board. Where, again, all the specialists convene at the same time, and really go over all the data that are available on that individual and come up with a treatment recommendation.

That treatment recommendation can be a single modality. So, some small tumors can just be addressed by surgery alone, or radiation therapy alone. But, for more advanced tumors, it is often all three modalities: surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy. And the way they’re sequenced, the way they’re implemented, should be individualized for that specific patient. Again, with those two goals in mind: to cure the cancer and to preserve function.

Katherine:                  

What else could guide a treatment decision? For instance, a patient’s co-morbidity, their age, things like that?

Dr. Cohen:                  

All of those things.

Katherine:                  

Yeah.

Dr. Cohen:                  

So, beyond – and those are things of course that we would consider in the discussion, not only at the tumor board but of course with the patient. We know that the therapy that we often recommend is quite aggressive and toxic.

Now, the justification for that is that we’re going to try to cure the cancer. And, so we think, and of course we discuss this with the patient, that putting the patient through this course of treatment is worthwhile, makes sense, because at the end of it, the goal is for the cancer to be gone. Now, not all patients will agree with that and of course, we, based on comorbidities and age and something we call performance status, we also want to make sure that the patient can get through this aggressive treatment. Let me just go on a bit of a tangent and describe the therapy for a patient with local advanced head and neck cancer. It would involve about six to seven weeks of radiation, given Monday to Friday. Usually either weekly, or every three-week chemotherapy depending on the chemotherapy chosen.

And possibly even surgery either before or after the combined chemotherapy and radiation. And so, we’re talking about at least a three-month course of treatment going from the start to recovery. Another three months of side effects that are less intense but still there. And it’s a lot for patients to go through. Patients and their caregivers. And so, if we feel that there’s a serious comorbidity that would not allow the patient to do that, we sometimes have to alter treatment so that obviously, we don’t want to harm the patient with our treatment. Certainly we don’t want to put them in a life-threatening situation. So, we do have to take those things into account. The good thing about all this – or I guess the silver lining, if you will, is that these toxicities get better.

Patients recover. So, what I tell patients is we’re going to put you through hell, but at the end of it, I want to be sitting across from you and saying the cancer is gone, and you’re swallowing, and you’re talking normally.

Katherine:                  

Right. Right. So, there’s light at the end of the tunnel.

Dr. Cohen:                  

Exactly.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. So, that leads me to my next question. Why is it so important, then, for patients to engage in their care and their treatment decisions?

Dr. Cohen:                  

I think it’s critical not only for patients but for their caregivers as well. And really, patients should arm themselves with information. And fortunately, we live in an age where information is more readily available. You don’t have to depend on a single source. Now, granted, that information can be confusing, and sometimes it’s way too confusing. Sometimes that information can even be misleading. So, one does have to be careful.

But, having said that, I think it’s so important for patients to arm themselves with information, different approaches, and what I often tell patients is get a second opinion. With one caveat, that I’ll get to in a second.  Because the reason is this is a life-threatening diagnosis for, unfortunately, many patients. And the first approach, our first chance to treat it is our best chance to treat it. So, you really want to make sure that you’re in a center that you’re comfortable with, preferably one that has experience. A provider that you’re comfortable with, that you feel at ease asking questions, you’re not intimidated and a plan that really makes sense for you and has taken into account what is this individual.

What’s our best approach to this individual? Not to an entire population but what are we going  to do for this person sitting in that chair at this time? Now, the caveat for second opinions, especially for patients with locally advanced disease, there is a time factor. And what I mean by that is I have seen patients get multiple opinions and delay the start of therapy, which we now realize impacts our ability to cure the cancer. And so, I would say it’s fine to get second opinions or even third opinions, but don’t take a lot of time doing it. The earlier therapy starts, the better our chance of curing the caner. So, there is sort of a balance there.

Katherine:                  

Well, that’s great advice, Dr. Cohen. PEN has also created downloadable office visit planners to help you organize your thoughts and communicate effectively with your healthcare team.

And that’s also in the toolkit I mentioned earlier at powerfulpatients.org. And I think this is a good segue into talking about the importance of self-advocacy. If a patient is feeling that they aren’t getting the best care or they’re uncomfortable with the care they’re getting, what steps should they take to change that?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Well, I think the first thing is talk to the provider. Just have that conversation. I think we have to realize that oncologists are human, and they’re people, and sometimes they get very busy. Sometimes they don’t pay attention to as much as they should. And sometimes, they don’t even know that there’s a problem. So, I would say the first thing to do is have a frank conversation with your provider. These are my questions. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Never be afraid to ask questions. These are my expectations.

Can you meet them? And in my experience, not even just personal experience, but working with many oncologists over two decades, most oncologists will say, “Oh, I didn’t realize that this was what you wanted. Let’s make it happen.” So, that I would say is the first thing. Talk to the people that are already taking care of you.

If, or whatever reason, that doesn’t work and you’re not comfortable, I would ask that provider, “Is there somebody else that – I would like to change. Is there somebody else that you would recommend?” In the worst-case scenario, that might involve going to a different institution. And the reason I say that’s a worst-case scenario is that especially in the setting of locally advanced disease, interrupting therapy or changing therapy in the middle really would have a dramatic adverse impact on outcome.

So, I would try to avoid that as much as possible. If there are natural points in the care where it makes sense to consider a change, I think that would be a lot less impactful and make more sense. For instance, if somebody is going from having completed a course of chemotherapy radiation, they now have no evidence of disease on their scans, and they want to switch to a center that is closer to home, for instance. That makes sense. And we have certainly many patients that do that and that’s a natural transition. But, to change in the middle of care, that can often have a dramatic negative impact.

Katherine:                  

Well, Dr. Cohen, thank you for sharing all this information. I’d like to close with your thoughts on the future of head and neck cancer care. Where are we headed and – excuse me – where are we headed, and what would you like to leave our audience with?

Dr. Cohen:                  

Well, I think there  are a few things I’ll emphasize, and I’ll talk a little but about the future. The first is this is, for many patients, a curable disease, and patients should think about what they need to set themselves up for the best outcome, both in terms of getting rid of the cancer and in terms of function. And I think those are seeking care at experienced centers with multidisciplinary teams and multidisciplinary tumor boards. That’s one.

Two would be that there are a lot of things that are happening and hopefully going to change the way we approach head and neck cancer in the near term. There are already drugs being tested for patients with locally advanced disease that we think are going to improve outcomes dramatically.

And there’s so much happening for patients with recurrent or metastatic disease with different agents and different technologies. That I really think in five years, we’ll be curing more patients with better outcomes in the locally advanced setting, and we’ll have patients that have recurrent metastatic disease where we would have felt that their survival would be counted in months, where it’s going to be counted in years, maybe even some of those patients being cured. So, the future, I think for cancer in general, but certainly for head and neck cancer, is incredibly optimistic.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. It’s such promising news, Dr. Cohen. And I want to thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Cohen:                  

Yeah. My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.

Katherine:                  

And thank you to all of our collaborators A– excuse me – and thank you to all of our collaborators. If you would like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon.

You’ll receive an email when it is ready. And please don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs. To learn more about head and neck cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.

PODCAST: Thrive | Considering CAR T-Cell Therapy for Myeloma? What You Should Know

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Dr. Beth Faiman, a myeloma expert and researcher, discusses factors that should be considered when deciding to undergo CAR T-cell therapy, advice for preparing for and after the process, and why a good support team is essential. Dr. Faiman also shares research updates in CAR T-cell therapy, and alternatives options to this myeloma treatment.

Dr. Beth Faiman is an Adult Nurse Practitioner in the department of Hematologic Oncology and Blood Disorders at the Cleveland Clinic. Learn more about Dr. Faiman.

See More From Thrive CAR T-Cell Therapy

Download Resource Guide

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. As patients navigate their myeloma care, it’s essential for them to feel formed when engaging with their care team. That’s why the Patient Empowerment Network developed the Thrive series, to share support and educational resources so that patients can feel confident at every stage of their care. In today’s program, we’re going to hear from a renowned myeloma expert as we discuss CAR-T therapy. Before we meet today’s guest, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, joining us today is Dr. Beth Faiman. Dr. Faiman, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Thank you so much, Katherine, and it’s such an honor and a pleasure to be here today. My name is Beth Faiman. I am a nurse practitioner and a PhD researcher at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio, where I have worked since 1994, in the field of myeloma mostly. Thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us today. As I mentioned, today’s program is part of our Thrive series. So, from your perspective, what does it mean to thrive with myeloma?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

So, to thrive with myeloma is something that when I started managing patients in the 1990s individuals didn’t live very long, maybe two to three years, because we did not have good therapies. Now, we talk about living well with myeloma, thriving with myeloma. It just makes me so happy. I think for plants. I think of flowers that can grow in the right environment. I had a plant in my office recently that somebody had gifted me, and it sat there and tried to soak up the little bit of sunlight that it could muster and just wasn’t doing well.  

So, I brought it home and I put it in a big window. That plant is beautiful now and I just love looking at it and thinking about it. And it reminds me of how if you’re in your right environment with multiple myeloma you surround yourself with friends, families, coworkers, church friends, or places of worship, then you can really thrive in that environment or you can grow. And even though you have a cancer diagnosis, that is not – and I hate to use the D-word – a death sentence anymore. You can live many years and live well with myeloma in the right environment like my little plant.  

Katherine Banwell:

That’s a great idea to think about. Thank you. Well, we’ve covered this in recent webinars but it’s worth sharing again. Can you give us an overview of the process and timeline for someone choosing CAR T-cell therapy for myeloma treatment?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. So, CAR T-cell therapy, when we first started discussing this in the mid-2000s, I thought this was science fiction.  

Taking somebody’s own cells, engineering them to be fighters against the cancer cells. I thought it was science fiction. But now, we have two FDA approved therapies for multiple myeloma. It’s Ide-cel, which was approved in 2021 and Cilta-cel, approved in 2022.  

Now, the process is lengthy and I know you’ve covered this before but from my perspective, I think if you want to take something home form this webinar, plan early. So, you need to have three prior lines of therapy as a myeloma patient to qualify for this treatment. But you can start planning for it ahead of time.  

So, it’s not available in every center. So, you want to start researching what the closest center would be for you to have this therapy. Many different patient support networks will have these centers on their websites. So anyhow, you find out.  

“Okay. I want to learn more about a CAR T-cell therapy.” Then you have to meet with a specialist. So, you get that education, have that referral, and meet with a specialist at a center that does CAR T-cell therapy. And that might be where you got your initial transplant if you’ve then returned to the community. After that, then we find a slot for you when it’s ready. So, there is that process of financial, physical, social things that are checked in the background. You meet with a social worker, nurses, etc.  

Once you’ve confirmed that you’re going to go through this process – now, it might be three, six, nine months in the future, if you’re a planner – but if you want to just gain information, it’s that harvesting and storing of the cells. That’s where I try to tell people age is not a number. You can be at any age and you qualify for this therapy. We’ve had people well into their late 70s to early 80s who have gotten these therapies.   

Long story short, it’s a process.  

You get your cells harvested and then while they’re being manufactured into fighters, they take the T cells from your blood through an apheresis machine and freeze them, send them off, make them into fighters, and then reinfuse them in your bloodstream. It’s a long process. It can take anywhere from two to three months from when you decide it’s right for you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, thank you for explaining that. That’s really important. It puts into perspective. It’s a big undertaking. But also, quite manageable, I think, right, with the right team and support. Who are the members?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. The family members, friends, and, of course – I like to use the words the multidisciplinary team. That’s your physicians, your social workers, nurses, nurse practitioners like me, pharmacists, and then all your other specialists.  

So really, mounting that team from diagnosis and throughout your whole journey as a myeloma patient can really enrichen your life and help you thrive in that environment.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. It sounds like there’s a lot of support for someone going through this process and that the care partner also plays a critical role on the care team, right?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, absolutely. So, I am a big advocate for care partner though not everybody has a caregiver. So, it can be a formal caregiver, somebody’s spouse, daughter, son, significant other. Or it can be an informal caregiver. So, I’ve had patients that – because you need to have a care partner to qualify for CAR T-cell therapy, because patients need to be monitored for about 30 days afterwards. So, that might be pulling in friends from your place of worship, people from the community, and then also people from the cancer center.  

Some of the larger centers that do the CART-cell therapy have a network setup where you get this list of people that have volunteered to drive you to appointments or maybe arrange for Uber help to drive you back and forth. I am not plugging Uber or Lyft, but a rideshare company. And so, finding out those resources can help anyone – just about anyone – access these CAR  T-cell therapies, because you can have a long-term remission. Think about somebody who’s been through treatment A, B, C, or D and then now, “Gosh, maybe my life is going to be shortened.”  

Not necessarily. If this is the right recipe to control their myeloma then they can get 11, 24 months off of everything – just antibiotics – and be monitored. And so, it puts them at a position where if you can get the care partner, get a care team, to support you then you can have access to a potentially life extending with good quality of life therapy.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’m sure many of our viewers today are wondering who the therapy is right for and when is it most appropriate in the course of myeloma? Could you address that?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. So, currently, you have to have had three prior lines of therapy with drugs such as a CD38, which is – daratumumab (Darzalex) is a name of a medication.  

You have to have a drug such as lenalidomide (Revlimid) as well as a drug like bortezomib (Velcade). And you have to have had three lines of therapy. So, that’s how you can access the therapy. But if you’re willing to participate in a well-designed clinical trial there are studies with CAR T-cell therapy earlier on.  

So, one of the things that we’re advocating in the myeloma world is clinical trials. We haven’t gotten to where we are in 2024 with the advances in sciences, the advances in living longer and living well with myeloma, without the brave people before us that have participated in clinical trials. 

So, people who it’s right for would be if they qualify for a clinical trial before their third or fourth line of therapy or if they’ve had three or four prior lines of therapy. And there are other points to that which I’m sure we’ll talk about later on.  

Katherine Banwell:

In your opinion, what are three key considerations that myeloma patients and care partners should think about related to the CAR T-cell therapy approach?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, gosh. Well, I would like to say that always when you’re selecting a therapy, think of the physical, the financial, and the social implications of that therapy. So, physically is the medication too strong for you? Are you too weak to take it? Or is it just right for you? So, finding the right medication for the right patient at the right dose at the right time. So, the physical component. The financial component is also very important. So, maybe your insurance now won’t cover it but then there’s open enrollment in Medicare towards the end of the year or you can find financial support reimbursement through many of our generous organizations that will provide grants for certain medications.  

And then, the social. Do you have a care partner, as we discussed? The importance of being monitored for 30 days. If you don’t have a formal care partner, is there some system that we can help support you through so that you can have the different supports throughout. It’s not only that beginning part where you’re gaining the information – and I think of it like a timeline. The beginning part, you’re thinking about gathering information to the – in that process of getting yourselves back because of the side effects, which I think have been talked about in a prior webinar.  

And then, the post-monitoring where you go back to your community, taking antibiotics, antiviral medications, etc., to keep you living well longer. So, it’s a process.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s great advice, Dr. Faiman, thank you. I’d also like to add that if you’re considering CAR T-cell therapy, the Patient Empowerment Network has a wealth of information on this topic, including resource guides and interviews with experts like Dr. Faiman. 

And you can find those at powerfulpatients.org/myeloma. So, Dr. Faiman, when a patient is talking with their care team about CAR T-cell therapy, what questions should they be asking to help determine if CAR-T is even right for them?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Katherine, that’s an excellent question. So, let’s just say that somebody from Patient Empowerment Network heard about CAR T-cell therapy for myeloma and then sought out a local institution that might be conducting that procedure. So then, they come for that visit and what you mentioned was just spot on, getting a list of questions together. What we do at my institution, as well as many throughout the country, is a process called shared decision-making.  

You might’ve talked about this on prior webinars, but shared decision-making occurs when that healthcare team, such as the physician, nurse practitioner, pharmacist, whoever, shares information with the patient and their care partner.  

You mutually share information to arrive at a decision. So, many studies have been done on shared decision-making. It’s done in many different areas. And so, through that sharing of information, you might think of different questions.  

Some of the things that I try to proactively offer – we all have our list of things that we educate our patients on, but some of the things I proactively will recommend to patients and their care partners when you’re seeking an opinion at these centers is, “How long will I be sick? What are the biggest side effects of the medication I have to worry about?” Asking your care team – I know it sounds silly, but are they aware of all your prior health concerns, especially if you’re coming for an evaluation.  

Maybe you have peripheral neuropathy where you have numbness and tingling in your fingers or toes or a history of kidney disease. Your kidneys look fine now but maybe a few years ago at the myeloma diagnosis the kidneys had a temporary failing and now they’re better so they’d want to protect you with future medications. How long will you have to take medications after the CAR-T procedure? There’s antiviral medicines, antibacterial medications, and medications called IVIG, which strengthens your immune system.  

And then, finally, asking about the infection protection afterwards. Do you have to get vaccinated again against pneumococcal, shingles, and all of those other things that we do. The cellular therapy guidelines suggest timepoint for one, three, five, etc., months after CAR T-cell procedure to get revaccinated. So, who’s going to do that for you?  

How are you going to know what to get? So, make sure that they give you a timeline, calendars, and set expectations for what you need to do as a patient and then you’ll help them set expectations for what they need to do to provide you the accurate education.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, talking about what to expect after CAR T-cell therapy, would you tell us what some of the potential side effects are?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, absolutely. So, CAR T-cell therapy – again, it harnesses your immune system using your T cells. Your T cells are so important in your immune system to be programmed as fighters. And as people age, or as long as – after they’ve had myeloma or other kinds of cancers, those T cells just don’t work as well. So, what we want to do is engineer them and program them with what we call a viral vector to be fighters. So, those T cells, as I mentioned, are harvested, stored, and then manufactured to go. 

And I tell people it’s like that Pac-Man video game. It goes around in your bloodstream just kind of eating away at the myeloma cells. So, you don’t take any medications. You don’t go in for IVs every week or twice weekly, or taking pills at home to treat the myeloma. It’s what we consider a one-and-done thing. So, if it works for you, it can keep you in remission for quite some time. But if it doesn’t work then there still are other therapies down the road.  

So, the CAR T-cell therapy is something that is an option but there are other therapies out there in many cases. There’s something called a bispecific antibody. There are three currently approved for multiple myeloma now. So, maybe a CAR T-cell therapy doesn’t seem right for you because you’re not in a good remission or the cancer’s too active right now so you don’t have the time to wait for manufacturing of the cells and putting them back in your bloodstream.  

Those bispecifics will fill that gap. So, when you’re discussing the options, aside from clinical trials and other drugs, the bispecific antibody is very similar. One of the things that I wanted to highlight is that nowadays we’re into these things called sequencing. So, we’re trying to figure out what order to give these super effective drugs. Should we give the bispecific antibodies first or should we give the CAR T-cell therapy first? And in most centers, if you have time to wait and you’re planning, the CAR T-cell therapy is right for most people and then the bispecifics would come later.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right. So, after CAR T-cell therapy is completed, what potential side effects might people experience, and what should they look for?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. I think of things in short-term and long-term side effects. So, the short term, you’re going to be admitted to the hospital and you have a risk for – when we get those T cells back – that cytokine release syndrome, or it’s abbreviated CRS – where you’re body’s immune system’s fighting.  

I tell folks it’s kind of like if you got a vaccine for a flu vaccine or pneumonia and you had a reaction it’s just way worse. So, you can get a high fever – the big first sign of this CRS. Usually, the providers will jump in with giving you a medication called tocilizumab (Actemra) or a similar drug that blocks IL-6, which is a chemical that is triggered when we get the CRS. And then, it stops those symptoms. And so, most of us know how to do that and will approve your insurance to get access to that tocilizumab or similar drug when we approve your CAR T-cell therapy.  

So, that CRS can get you really, really sick. You can get low oxygen levels in your blood. You can get a high fever and you can drop your blood pressure. But most CAR T-cells centers, the nurses and the staff are very well-trained to monitor this every eight hours, in most cases.  

Another rare side effect we worry about is ICANS and it’s a neurotoxicity kind of thing.  

It can be with CRS or without CRS. But they’ll ask you to do things like write your name on a piece of paper every eight hours or tell me – draw a clock or count backwards from 100. And so, if you have any deviation, even minor, from what you reported back beforehand then we worry about neurotoxicity. Now, that’s short term but that’s the reason why you can’t drive a car for 30 days is because it could be delayed. 

The CRS can start with the one thing, the ide-cel usually occurs within one day so most people are admitted to the hospital for that CAR T-cell therapy. The Cilta-cel, it onsets to about seven days. So, some people get the cilta-cel outpatient and then are monitored daily, whether in person or through virtual telehealth monitoring.  

But at any rate, those are the short-term. Long-term, we worry about low blood counts maybe for the first month afterwards. And then, those will come back to normal. And then, we worry about infection. So, I mentioned the antibacterial, antiviral, which is usually a medicine called acyclovir (Zovirax), which most myeloma patients will have been on anyhow. And then, that IVIG to protect against viruses and bacteria when your immune system is so low. 

But fortunately, if we control the CRS, it usually comes with the CRS, although it can be independent. We try not to give steroids, because we don’t want it to interrupt the CAR T-cell process. But many institutions will give that tocilizumab for ICANS. And if that doesn’t get better then they’ll give you a steroid, such as dexamethasone (Decadron). 

And so, that will usually reverse itself pretty quickly. Longer term, after 30 days, you can get with the Carvykti, particularly something called Parkinsonian things where you can get a little bit shaky or something like that. Again, it’s very rare and I have had hundreds of people who have undergone the CAR T-cell procedure at my institution. And knock on wood, fortunately, I’ve not seen first-hand that side effect. And I think it’s because we’re so good now at treating the – preventing the ICANS and CRS as best as we can while they’re inpatient and doing real close following.  

One other thing I want to note is if somebody who’s watching this does go in the hospital for any reason, get up and walk around and stay strong, as well as you can, during the procedure. You might be bored if you’re in the hospital anyhow, but try to stay as strong as you can in the hospital. It’ll help your post recovery for sure.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, what about more mild side effects like fatigue and changes in appetite?   

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. So, the fatigue and the changes in appetite are generally mild for most but I see it, in my experience, if your myeloma’s acting up really quickly, if you’re having a rapid disease progression, the medications that we give you to control the myeloma during this bridging therapy phase might cause some of that as well, not necessarily the CAR T-cell process. But think about it. We’re using your own cells engineered to be fighters.  

And so, that first month or two is probably when you’re going to be the most tired as your body is being programmed to fight against the myeloma cells. That fatigue tends to get better. And as I mentioned just a moment earlier, the importance of just walking around in the halls, getting out of bed when you’re in the hospital, that can really help your post recovery. It doesn’t seem like much, but there have been many studies about how muscle mass declines, energy declines when you’re hospitalized.  

And we want you to be as strong as you can and thrive as much as you can for when you’re out you can then do the things you want to do at a quicker pace.   

Katherine Banwell:

Right. That’s great advice. Beyond monitoring of any issues, what can someone expect related to returning to life as they knew it before the diagnosis? Is there a timeline for resuming lifestyle and activity?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah. So, I should say I because it’s from my perspective. I am a real strong advocate. I tell people to do what you feel like you can physically do. We know that myeloma can affect the bones and put your bones at risk for breaking and so we give you medicines to protect it. So, I do put some restrictions however on physical activity in terms of, “I don’t want you to bench press 40 pounds or 20 pounds,” in most cases. And depending on what the bones look like on x-ray, I’ll even restrict it to about five to 10 pounds.  

If you think about it, that’s a bag of potatoes. So, you don’t want to put too many restrictions on for everybody. But talk to your healthcare provider about what your specific restrictions are with physical activity. Because I don’t really put any restrictions on but I encourage things like riding a bike, especially a stationary bike in your own home, so that if you fall off – hopefully, you won’t fall off a stationary bike. But if you injure yourself, then you’re able to be in a place that somebody can help you.  

But riding a bike. Also, exercising in water. Water therapy is a great weight bearing exercise and there are times of day where you can go when the YMCAs or YWCAs aren’t as busy – or community centers. So, you’re less at risk for bacterial or other illnesses. But during that first month, I try to limit their exposure to people because you’re at risk for the different viruses that are all over the place, the bacterial infections. 

So, that first month is the critical period where I try to say, “Okay, try to lay low. Let’s get you through this period. Your immune system will start getting stronger on its own after this period.” And then, that month two you start feeling like doing more. You go to the grocery store. You maybe go to eat out at a restaurant but pick a time of day that’s less busy. So, go for an early dinner. There’s no shame in eating at 5:00 p.m. if you want to go out. And then, get a table in the corner with your own wipes. And so, that’s where your immune system is getting stronger. 

And then, by month three, I think most people will feel much, much better and much, much stronger. And if you can keep moving throughout this whole time, then you’ll be stronger on the way out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Faiman, from what you’ve described, undergoing CAR T-cell therapy can be a very intense process. Why would someone consider this option over another myeloma treatment option?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah. So, the CAR T-cell therapies have really transformed myeloma, in my opinion.  

When we first started using CAR T-cell therapies, there was a long wait list because people who had had three, five, seven, 10, 12 prior therapies, they had very few other options. So, we had ethically assigned scores to people as to who – we’d get one or two slots a month and then we’d have 80-some people on this list. And we’re thinking, “How do we allocate who’s going to get this therapy?” And it’s because you can have a nice, long remission off of all therapy.  

It’s a great, great option for most people. Again, I would hope that we can get this moved further into the disease trajectory. There are actually two studies. One was a KarMMa study. It was published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2023, early part of 2023.  

And it showed that when people get this therapy earlier, the Ide-cel first, you can have a longer remission. So, we’re talking about three, four, five or more prior lines of therapy you can get about 11 months with the Ide-cel.  

You could even get a longer remission off of all therapy if you move it earlier. Same with Cilta-cel. We had studies and different cohorts and you can be in a long remission. So, think of somebody who’s – myeloma’s incurable. It’s very treatable but it’s incurable for most. And so, you go from the expectation of staying on treatment until disease progression, much like other chronic conditions like diabetes. We don’t stop medicine for diabetes or high blood pressure.  

And it’s the same with myeloma and many of the cancers that we treat these days. And so, a CAR T-cell therapy will give patients the option of having that disease free interval where you can go and travel the world. I have patients that have bought RVs after their CAR T-cell therapy and now they’re going around the world – well, not the world. But around the United States.  

Katherine Banwell:

The country. 

Dr. Beth Faiman:

The country. And just really enjoying life and taking that time off and being realistic, knowing that we have to do bloodwork every month to make sure the myeloma’s still in remission because it can come back. But at least it’s sleeping for right now. So, you can go out and enjoy your life and take those trips and enjoy the little things and the big things.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, thank you for that advice. I’d like to get to a few audience questions that were sent in prior to the program. Alice asks, can you share more information about T-cell collection? A recent webinar mentioned that myeloma must be in good control. Can you share specifics about the bridging therapy prior to infusion?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. So, again, the process is the lengthy process as we mentioned before. But for the actual T-cell collection, we will have approved you to get the therapy. Financially, we’ve cleared you. Socially, you’ve gotten your support systems and now we’re getting those cells out.  

We use a process called apheresis where a temporary catheter is placed under the skin, and it separates your white blood cells and then returns the red bloods and plasma back into the blood. And it sorts out those T cells. The process itself, you’re on the machine for anywhere for two or three hours. Hopefully, it’ll just be one day’s time. And then, they’ll manufacture those cells.  

So, during that period where we’ve put your cells and sent them away to wherever’s going to be doing the manufacturing, you’re going to need to get a treatment that’s going to keep you in remission from the myeloma. And it’s not going to prevent you from getting those cells safely back. So, we don’t want anything that’s too toxic for most people. So, what we’re doing now is we have that information that early on is better for myeloma to get these treatments. And so, the hope that bridging therapy won’t be as common of a thing anymore.  

Because now we’re selecting people that are – the myeloma’s just starting to act up. Let’s get those cells out, send them off, so we don’t have to do bridging therapy. We can just keep you – add a medication or take away another medication to keep you in remission. So, that’s the goal of bridging therapy. What’s that bridge to get your cells back in for some people? It might be a chemotherapy type of a thing. But for other people it’s just trying to get you that CAR T-cell collection and manufacturing so we don’t really have to change everything all up.  

And we’ve been very fortunate now that the wait lists have cleared in most institutions. CAR-T cell is available at more centers across the country and so we don’t have that backlog. And so, fortunately, bridging therapy will hopefully be a little bit less of a thing.  

Katherine Banwell:

We have another question. This one from Rita. What kind of monitoring takes places in the months following CAR T-cell therapy and what kinds of medicines are required afterward?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, excellent. So, the monitoring is usually on the short-term, within the first 30 to 60 days afterwards, oftentimes depending on what your blood counts are showing. You might have to get blood counts tested more frequently. So, that complete blood count shows you the white cells, the red cells. The white cells fight infection. Red cells carry oxygen. Platelets clot the blood. That’s a marker of how well your bone marrow is functioning. It also can be – those innocent bystanders can go low temporarily after this procedure.  

So, definitely those CBCs need to be tested, for some people weekly and for some people every other week. And your healthcare team will tell you how often. After that first two to three months and your blood counts are all in good shape, then we can just go oftentimes to a monthly monitoring of the myeloma labs. So, that’s the CBC and the chemistry panel but also the paraproteins in the blood and the urine get monitored.  

There’s also another test called a CD4 count that’s something that you wouldn’t have had beforehand. The CD4 count is an immune count that we want to be over 200. Oftentimes,  you’ll be on an antibiotic called Bactrim or an inhaled called pentamidine to lessen the chance of a certain kind of infection called PJP, or pneumocystis. So, those are those atypical infections that we’re now seeing with CAR-T cell and other therapies.  

And as I mentioned, acyclovir to protect against shingles is a medication but you’re not going to be on any anti-myeloma medications other than maybe a bone strengthener if you get that intermittently. Fortunately, after CAR-T cell, you don’t have any anti myeloma therapy as long as you’re in remission.  

Katherine Banwell:

We also received this question from a viewer named Rob. If you receive CAR-T therapy, how long does it last and have you seen remission for a long time?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

So, I’d like to tell Rob that I’ve seen a little bit of a remission and I’ve seen long-time remissions. Unfortunately, it goes back to the biology of the disease. People that have a more aggressive type of myeloma tend to not have as long of a remission but that’s not always the case. So, if you have what’s called a standard type of myeloma, which fortunately about 80 percent of the people have a standard or good type of myeloma, you can get an 11- to 24-month remission if you’ve had many prior therapies.  

Now, if we’re moving the CAR-T earlier lines of therapy, as in those two studies that I briefly mentioned with the Ide-cel and the Cilta-cel studies that are moving it to one to three prior lines of therapy, people are getting longer remissions.  

Unfortunately, I do not have a crystal ball. I can look at your disease genetics. I can look at how deep your remission status is and I can generally predict based on other studies how long of a remission you might get, but it’s not a guarantee. What works for one person might not work for the other so you take it with a grain of salt. We just say, “Gosh, this is a great therapy. We need to offer it to you while we have that window of opportunity. You’re in a good remission. We have a slot for you. We’re going to pick the best product for you. Let’s give you this option.” 

You might be one of those exceptional responders that are in remission for several years, which I do have people that have been in remission several years, fortunately.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Well, thank you so much for the thoughtful responses to those questions. As we close out today’s program, can you talk about some of the ongoing research in CAR T-cell therapy and what you’re excited about?  

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Oh, my gosh. I am so excited about CAR T-cell therapy research. There are these what we call CRISPR gene edited technology, which is really personalizing the treatment in CAR-T.  

There’s what we call an off-the-shelf approach where we don’t have to manufacture one’s T cells to be a fighter. So, these CAR T-cell therapies are the kinds of clinical studies where if you are in a position where you want to hopefully get an earlier access to a great therapy, this CRISPR edited at – Caribou is what it’s called, that we have at my institution. That might be right for you.  

There’s also the different targets. For example, the Ide-cel and the Cilta-cel target what’s called BCMA or B-cell maturation antigen. Basically, the BCMA is expressed mostly on cancer cells and less so on healthy cells.  

And so, that’s what the target is for these current CAR-Ts. We have different targets. So, what does that mean for you? If you had a CAR T-cell therapy against BCMA or a bispecific against BCMA now we have these different targets so that gives you other options for remissions status. So, if you can, I am a big, strong advocate for clinical trials. Like I said, it’s getting better access. You have a healthcare team. There’s so much stigma associated with clinical trials, but every single person is a candidate for some sort of a trial or another.  

So, talk to your healthcare team or you can go to clinicaltrials.gov and then all the patient care organizations – International Myeloma Foundation, Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation, has access to clinical trial information as well for patients. So, yes, lots of good things. New targets. Off-the-shelf so you don’t have to manufacture. So, that represents new treatment options for many patients.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Faiman, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Beth Faiman:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a more proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.  

PODCAST: HCP Roundtable: Critical Clinical Trial Conversations in the Expanding Myeloma Landscape

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Treatment options for multiple myeloma have increased substantially, mainly attributed to advancements in clinical trials. More than ever, HCPs having conversations about trials is critical. Given that underrepresented communities bear a disproportionate burden of multiple myeloma, it becomes imperative to shift this paradigm.

What are the optimal approaches to initiate these conversations early in the patient journey? How should HCPs effectively communicate information about clinical trials to patients and their families, including care partners? Myeloma experts Dr. Craig Cole and Charise Gleason lend their expertise, offering insights into best practices and guidance on the next steps to be taken.

Download Resource Guide  |  Descargar guía de recursos

Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients Program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, founder and CEO of Your GPS Doc. EPEP is a patient empowerment network program that serves as a secure space for healthcare providers to learn techniques for improving patient-physician communication and overcome practice barriers. In this

Myeloma roundtable, we are tackling critical clinical trial conversations in the expanding myeloma landscape. Some of the things we’ll discuss during this program include, how to explain the sequence of myeloma treatment and how clinical trials fit in. Healthcare provider to healthcare provider, recommended strategies for initiating clinical trial conversations early in the myeloma patient journey, and how to effectively mitigate and manage concerns regarding clinical trials through education, and continuously encourage patients and their care partners to ask questions.

It is my honor and privilege to be joined by Charise Gleason, vice President and Chief Advanced Practice Officer for Emory Healthcare, and adjunct faculty at the Nell Hodgson Woodruff School of Nursing at Emory University. Ms. Gleason leads the physician assistants and nurse practitioners across Emory Healthcare, overseeing clinical practice, quality, safety, and education. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ms. Gleason.

Charise Gleason:

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

We’re also joined by Dr. Craig Cole, a board certified hematologist. Dr. Cole leads multiple clinical trials in multiple myeloma, and has worked extensively with patient advocacy groups to empower, educate, and bring equitable care to everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Cole.

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah, and thank you for the invitation.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

While this conversation can be broadly beneficial, in this program, we are speaking to the unique needs of myeloma patients and families. So let’s get started with how to explain the sequence of myeloma treatment, and how available clinical trials fit in. So I’m going to start with you, Dr. Cole. We know that there has been rapid advancement in the myeloma sphere. Can you speak to how the introduction of novel drugs, treatment combinations and therapeutic modalities may pose some challenges for healthcare providers as they attempt to explain the sequence of treatment in relation to available clinical trials?

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah, that’s a really good question, especially because so many things have been changing in myeloma, and such a rapid secession. It really, it’s been kind of not only an incredible transformative past 20 years in myeloma as we’ve moved away from using chemotherapy to using really targeted therapy, but really in the past five to 10 years, and us using immunotherapy and now T-cell directed therapy, it’s been transformative.

And it’s been very, very difficult for myeloma experts to kind of configure how these treatments are sequenced, and how the clinical trials are conducted. But basically, we have gone from using single drug therapies to using combination therapies for refractory patients to using multiple modalities and as upfront therapy for myeloma. Up until today, us using four-drug induction therapies with IMiDs proteasome inhibitors and now immunotherapy with anti-CD38 therapy being used upfront.

Now, we have…we’re on the fact we are past the horizon of using T-cell directed therapy for relapsed/refractory myeloma. Those are now being put in combinations. And at the last meetings, we saw data in combining talquetamab with the bispecific antibody with pomalidomide (Pomalyst) having incredible response rates to 99 percent to a 100 percent. The combination of using daratumumab (Darzalex)with teclistamab (Tecvidli) at ASCO a couple of years ago having very, very, very high response rates for relapsed/refractory patients.

And, of course, the combination of using two bispecific antibodies talquetamab (Talvey) and teclistamab together having, again, in these incredible response rates and for relapse refractory myeloma. So in very quick orders, we’re going to see those therapies moving further and further upfront, which is a huge benefit to patients.

But it can be kind of difficult to keep up with all the changes in myeloma, especially as we move from using these drugs as single agents, to using them in combination. And not only to speak to using some of the newer drugs like Mezigdomide in combination with daratumumab, having one of the CELMoDs having very, very high response rates.

And so it’s exciting, but it does, it’s a challenge to discuss clinical trials with patients, because so many things have changed. We now have clinical trials across the spectrum of myeloma, using bispecifics as upfront and smoldering myeloma, which was at the last ASH meeting to using again, more novel therapies upfront and relapsed/refractory space and in the maintenance therapy space.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Well, that’s all very exciting, and I appreciate you sharing that because as you’ve said, there’s been a really kind of an explosion for lack of a better word, in the numbers of treatments that are available as well as increasing improvements and results. But as you shared, having all of these different modalities available can definitely cause some confusion even among those who do this every day. Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Gleason?

Charise Gleason:

No, I think, well, I think Dr. Cole described that perfectly. It’s an exciting time, and also a challenging time, which just really brings you back to that team care approach to your patient, and how all of us need to work hard to keep up to date on the latest information. Dr. Cole mentioned quadruplet therapy, and we’ve got two clinical trials that have essentially told us. if you add that quadruple therapy and add that antibody upfront, you drive that deeper response.

So we change our practice probably sooner in the academic settings. And it’s really how do we get this out to other healthcare providers in our referral basis that send patients to us? And then also, how do we do maintenance? And I think Dr. Cole would agree most of us risk-stratify for that maintenance setting too, whether it’s one drug or multi-drug, depending on our patient’s disease.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:  

Wonderful. So certainly, this conversation alludes to the fact that the clinical trials regarding these medications are also increasingly complex. And so I’m going to go to you, Ms. Gleason, because we know that nurses and advanced practice providers provide understanding of these trials, including potential benefits and risks, and all of the things that are required as they consider participating in a trial. And then, as you all have both shared, there is some tailoring around the treatment with regard to the disease state, whether it’s relapsing, whether it’s refractory. So with that in mind, do you have any best practices around tailoring the trial conversation with regard to specific patient needs and situations?

Charise Gleason:

Well, I’ll start with, we bring that discussion with all of our patients about the potential of a clinical trial from the start. And so we’re all versed on that, we all look to what clinical trial could be available for this patient. So we’re used to having that conversation. So our teams all need to be educated, participate in our research meetings, so we are ready to discuss a trial on that. We sometimes get to spend more time with patients, and we get to know our patients. These are patients we see frequently, and so we can have those conversations.

You might have somebody who’s starting to have a biochemical progression. It’s not time to change their therapy yet, but we’re already thinking about what’s that next line of therapy. And so as we start to approach that with clinical trials and standard of care, and opening that dialogue, so it’s really that communication and that rapport and relationship you have with your patient, and that care partner. So an ongoing conversation about the different treatments that are available to them.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

So we know that patients with myeloma are living longer lives based on everything that you all have shared, and with that comes a different set of options and challenges.  And you also have alluded to this team-based approach, Ms. Gleason, and we know that there’s a critical role that advanced practice providers play in the myeloma clinical trial setting. So I’d love for you to speak to that..the role that advanced practice providers play in myeloma clinical trials.

Charise Gleason:

Yeah, the advanced practice providers have started specializing like our physicians do, and we have that collaborative relationship, and we are part of that team approach to take care of our patients. So we’re identifying patients for potential clinical trials. Our scope of practice does vary a little bit from state to state. So in some cases, we can also enroll patients. If we’re not able to do that, though, we can already have discussed the trial, discussed side effects, presented them with the consent. So when they do meet with the physician, they’ve already seen a lot of that information, and then they can ask further questions with the physician.

I think the other big role that we play in the clinic setting is we see these patients, we see these patients for follow-up. So we’re doing a lot of management of the side effects, supportive care through the trials. We might be a little more available during the week, so if a patient’s here on another day, and they’ve got something going on, we’re answering those portal questions, and calling patients back and just really collaborating with our physicians and also the research team.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Dr. Cole, I’m going to turn the conversation back to you. As a physician, I know that often, there are some barriers just as part of our everyday practice that can hinder our work. And so I’d love for you to speak to any unforeseen or outdated practice related barriers that you feel may hinder your work, and the work of your colleagues specifically as it relates to myeloma trials. And then if you could also share some potential solutions to those barriers.

Dr. Craig Cole: 

Yes, super good question. I love this question. There are a lot that are out there that I…barriers that I hear providers talk about at other academic centers and in the community. One is that patients don’t want to go on clinical trials that they…and some of that is subconscious bias. Sometimes those are true, true bias. We know the FDA knows all the drug companies all, and I think every myeloma provider knows that there have been horrific disparities in the enrollment of patients in clinical trials based on race and age and ethnicity that the FDA looked at some of the data of trials that were going for FDA approval, and found that over the past 10 years, and that in those trials, that only 4 percent of the population of the trials were Black.

While in the United States, the number of Black myeloma patients is about 20 percent, over 20 percent of the myeloma population. So that’s a huge disparity. And what I hear is that while older patients and Black and Hispanic and Asian patients don’t want to go on clinical trials, and that’s not true. That’s been shown in multiple clinical trials that actually, the patients of different ethnicities and races actually are more likely to go on clinical trials than other racial groups. And so I think that it’s really important to keep that in mind that patients really…that really the ownership of getting a patient on a clinical trial is really on us to present the clinical trial option to them with every single conversation that we have.

 Some of the other barriers to clinical trials is, and Ms. Gleason had mentioned this, what they do at through the Emory system is that, well, the nurses and the other staff in the cancer center aren’t aware of the clinical trials, that when a patient goes through the clinic, they talk to more than just the provider. They talk to the treatment nurses, they talk to the intake people, they talked to the MAs, they talked to the scheduling people.

And there was a study that was done a few years ago in looking at patients who were given consent forms and declined clinical trials. And they found that a lot of patients declined clinical trials, well, because they said that, well, their doctor didn’t want them on the trial. And when they looked further into that, they saw that, well, the doctor offered them a clinical trial, but when they discussed the clinical trial with a nurse practitioner, when they discussed that trial with a treatment nurse or the MA or any of the other staff, when they didn’t know about the clinical trial, that was considered well, if you don’t know about the clinical trial, it must not be good for me. And then they withdrew from the trial.

So just like what they do, what Ms. Gleason had said, we have an all-in approach. We make sure that the treatment nurses, the MAs, the intake people know what we’re doing, know about our clinical trials, because that’s the fun part about what we do. The fun part is when we say, look, my goodness, this four-drug therapy had a 100 percent response rate. That shouldn’t be left in the physician compartment. It really shouldn’t be left in the provider compartment. That excitement should be clinic-wide. And when you have that all-in approach where everybody’s involved, everyone’s excited about clinical trials, it produces a culture of clinical trials that everybody wants to be part of, and the patients then can jump on that bus and feel comfortable participating in the trial.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wow. Thank you for elucidating that. Both the issue of the health disparities that we see in clinical trials and the need to diversify that clinical trial patient population, some of those biases that exist, as well as really lifting up this idea of creating a culture of clinical trials. I love the language that you use for that and the idea that everyone throughout the entire clinical encounter needs to be both aware of, and excited about the clinical trials that are underway. So I appreciate that.

That leads us nicely into our next segment, which is really focusing on strategies for fellow healthcare providers for initiating clinical trial conversations early in the myeloma patient journey. So I’m going to go back to you, Ms. Gleason. We’ve been talking about this team-based approach. We know that nurses serve as key coordinators of care in the myeloma trial setting, as well as other members of the healthcare team. So from your perspective, what are some recommended strategies that you can share to encourage advanced practice providers, specifically how to initiate the clinical trial conversation at the outset of care?

Charise Gleason:  

First, we need to educate our advanced practice providers. So for new APPs coming into our system, part of their onboarding is the research mission, exposing them to the clinical trials, exposing them to what we have available. We have a weekly research meeting, I’m sure Dr. Cole has similar practices. And then our group has a separate meeting once a week, where we meet for two hours. The myeloma team, we have APPs who are off that day who call in for this meeting, because we go over our patients, we talk about what’s, clinical trials are available, that’s just how we practice and we think about that.

I would like to add to that, referring to a center early is so essential as well, and for us to start having that conversation. And I’ll talk a little bit to build on something Dr. Cole said with our patient population.  In Atlanta, in our database, 40 percent of our data is based on Black patients. And we enroll about 32% to 33% of Black patients on clinical trials. And what our work on trials has showed us too, if you give the same access to every patient, you have good outcomes and good outcomes for Black patients, if not better, than white patients. So we all need to be versed on that, whether you’re the research nurse, the clinic nurse, the physician, the advanced practice. And so we really do bring that approach to taking care of our patients.

And then, managing those side effects and having that open dialogue. So patients aren’t surprised by things. And I’ll use talquetamab for instance. We have a patient who is still on the original trial, who relapsed on a BCMA targeted therapy. Early on, these side effects were new to everybody. And she wanted to come off the trial month end. And it was that education piece and working with her, holding the drug, that now almost two years later, she’s still in remission, tolerating the drug. And so those are the stories and these are the experiences we have. We’re giving really good drugs on clinical trials and patients are responding well.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That’s an amazing success story. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Dr. Cole, with regard to potential strategies for healthcare providers, what are some things that they can implement for initiating these clinical trial conversations early in the journey, particularly in the current environment?

Dr. Craig Cole: 

Yeah. And Ms. Gleason had mentioned this at kind of the top of our talk about having those conversations on day one. On day one of our patients coming in either as a second opinion, as a new diagnosis, as in whatever setting, we talk about…we have a list that we go through with the patient that talks about their stage or the disease, how we’re going to follow up. And there’s a line that I have to address, which is, clinical trials. So I mentioned our clinical trials, I mentioned on day one. And I think one strategy that other healthcare providers can take is that, even if you don’t have a clinical trial at that time, so right at this moment, we don’t have an upfront clinical trial.

We have one for maintenance therapy, post-transplant, but we don’t have an upfront trial. I mention that. I say that there are clinical trials that are available for your myeloma. Right now we don’t have a clinical trial for upfront myeloma, but we can refer you for a second opinion for an upfront trial if you’re interested or…and we have a clinical trial in maintenance. So that sets the groundwork that we’re going to talk about clinical trials on every visit. And that it doesn’t come as a surprise. Because the last thing you want to do is that someone is having a relapse and you say, “Oh, we’re going to talk about clinical trials today.”  Because then it’s like, “Oh my goodness, this is a desperation.” This is a desperation move, and it puts a lot of anxiety when you frame it, and we need to do this now as opposed to having on day one.

The second thing that I think really helps is getting patients involved in the myeloma community, especially with the support groups having not only the patients, but their care providers and families involved in the myeloma community. Because the myeloma communities through a lot of the support agencies like the IMF, the MMRF, the HealthTree, they have a very strong clinical trial culture. And when patients get involved, not only is that empowering to see other myeloma patients doing well, but to hear other myeloma patients talk about their experiences in clinical trials really, really helps. And I think the last thing that we use to help patients, go through clinical trials, is a couple of other things, is one, every time we talk about treatment options, if that is maintenance, if that is smoldering, if that is a relapsed/refractory therapy, we always put clinical trials in that conversation.

 Again, even if we don’t have that clinical trial at our institution, we talk about this as an option that we could refer you out to. And, and then we always talk about…I think one other little thing is that every visit that patients have, I somehow include some of the new things that are happening in myeloma. Now, my patients kind of expect it. They expect. They know when December and June is because when I see them after ASH and ASCO and sometimes they’re like asking, “So what’s new?” And once we get into that groove, they see, gosh. There are response rates that are off the charts with some of these new things. These patients are involved in clinical trials and the myeloma and multiple myeloma research is progressing at such a rate and things are getting better that patients want to be involved in it.

So we’re always talking about new things. Do I go into depth of detail with talquetamab and pomalidomide. I don’t go into depth of detail. And I say, where I was this clinical trials at our last ASH meeting that combined these two drugs for a relapsed/refractory myeloma, even patients who were refractory to some of the drugs you’re on now. And response rate was like 100 percent. And then when I talk about those clinical trials in the future, they’ll remember, man, that guy was talking, he’s all upset about these clinical trials. Maybe I want to be involved in them. So that’s kind of my few strategies that I use. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:  

I love that. And what I really hear both of you saying is this idea of normalizing conversations about clinical trials and not introducing them as like a Hail Mary, so to speak, but really from the very beginning, letting patients and care partners know that this is a viable treatment option. So I think that is wonderful. And I can say like, your excitement is contagious for me, so I can only imagine how excited the patients that you work with feel.

So let’s move on to our final topic. How do we mitigate and manage concerns despite all these wonderful things that both of you have shared? I’m sure that patients and family members have concerns about myeloma clinical trials. And so I’ll start with you, Ms. Gleason. And as you hear concerns from patients and families over the years possibly related to fear of randomization, fear of getting the placebo, you all have mentioned some uneasiness about adverse effects. How do you effectively mitigate and manage these concerns with patients and their family members and care partners?

Charise Gleason:

Yeah, you just have to continue to have open communication. And if you’re, if a patient is accustomed to you mentioning clinical trials, then when you present one to them, right? They’re a little more open to it. But not everybody starts with us. And we get referrals in midway and different parts and different paths along the way. But patients we do hear, “I don’t want to get a placebo.” Or you’ll mention a clinical trial and somebody will say, “Am I ready for hospice?”

And it’s, you have to go back and start that education again that, no, you’re getting good treatment on this, a registry trial, for instance, you’re going to get standard of care treatment plus or minus something else, right? And so we really have to go back and educate that you are getting treatment. You’re going to be watched closer than any of our other patients actually.

You’ve got a whole team around you that’s talking about your trial and our patients every week. And so I think that our excitement and our being positive, we can get those patients to enroll on trials. I think something that makes me really happy is, we keep a list of every treatment line, and when you go through and it’s like standard of care, clinical trial, clinical trial, standard…it’s we’ve done the right thing then, right? Our patient has had full advantage of what’s available to them when we do that. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

What about you, Dr. Cole? Do you have anything to add with regard to managing the concerns that come up?

Dr. Craig Cole:

Yeah. The one thing that I tell patients, and I tell patients one-to-one, and when I do talks for some of the efficacy groups that I tell lots of patients that. That in 2024, myeloma trials are incredibly competitive. And the only, the best, best drugs, now float to the top as part of our clinical trial portfolio. There were days I remember begging companies for clinical trials saying, “Please, please think about myeloma.” And we were struggling.

Now, it is incredibly competitive, and that competition does a fantastic thing for patients because what we see in the clinical trial portfolio are drugs that are safer and safer and safer, and drugs that are more effective and more effective. When you go to these meetings and the expectation is that our response rate needs to be over 60%, then you know that the clinical trial mail you, that we work with them, is of a super high quality, which you really can’t say for a lot of other types of cancer.

So I tell patients that their fears that they have are absolutely justified. And one thing we teach the fellows, the residents and the medical students, is that you validate those concerns and you listen to those concerns and you don’t ignore it or blow through it. That you absolutely…those are the most important parts of that conversation. And if you don’t validate it, the patient says, “Well, I have a fear of randomization.” And you go, “Hmm, there’s no such thing.” Then that’s not validating. And that’s not even listening. That’s just moving on because you don’t have that concern, but you’re not bringing that, you’re not validating the patient’s concern. And so you have to be very, very careful in doing that because there are multiple studies that have shown those are the big concerns.

Also, bringing up the things that are facilitators for clinical trials, that if there is an opportunity for reimbursement for travel or reimbursement for hotel stays or reimbursement that we say that this trial has a reimbursement program, or if we say that use other things that help facilitate clinical trials like speaking to the family, not just speaking to a patient, but speaking to the caregiver and speaking to the extended family that that patient will have a conversation with are really important conversation because the more people that you can talk to, that’s part of that patient’s decision-making group, which can be very different from patient to patient based on their culture, the more likely you are to get a consensus among that decision-making group for the patient to go on a clinical trial.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Those are great tips. Thank you both so much. It’s time to wrap up our roundtable. I must say I have truly enjoyed this conversation as always. I have learned a lot. I’m sure that our audience has learned a lot. In closing, I’m going to go to each of you just to share maybe one takeaway that you’d like to leave with the audience. So I’ll start with you Dr. Cole, one takeaway.

Dr. Craig Cole: 

One takeaway. I actually thought about this, but I think that the biggest takeaway is, if I can squeeze two in.

Is that, is to remember that basically they’re all patients want to be involved in clinical trials and the ownership of having patients on clinical trials is really on us to really talk to them over a longitudinal period, to talk about clinical trials, to have them involved. To not look at a patient saying, “No, they don’t want to be on clinical trial.” That you really engage that patient to tell them about really the incredible progress that we’ve made, how competitive clinical trials are and how exciting it is to be part of that research environment. And that would be my one, my two sort of closing thoughts.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And what about you, Ms. Gleason?

Charise Gleason:

Dr. Cole said it well. Please discuss this with your patient. Listen to them. Listen to their concerns. Don’t make decisions for them based on bias that maybe you’re bringing in. Don’t make decisions based on maybe it’s too far. Patients drive hours to go on clinical trials, and let’s give them the information and have that conversation.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wonderful. Well, thanks again to both of you, and thank you all for tuning in to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester. Have an amazing day.

PODCAST | HCP Roundtable: Best Practices for Talking About Clinical Trials With Myeloma Patients

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Clinical trials represent tomorrow’s medicine today, yet not every patient confronting a myeloma diagnosis is informed about all available care options. Surprisingly, some patients and their care partners are never introduced to the possibility of participating in clinical trials. How can we alter the course? What strategies can healthcare professionals (HCPs) employ to effectively communicate information about clinical trials and guide patients through next steps?

Experts Dr. Beth Faiman and RuthAnn Gordon share important insights into understanding the critical role of clinical trial nurses and how they educate and mentor nursing professionals around best practices for broaching clinical trial conversations.

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Transcript:

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester, pediatrician and CEO of Your GPS Doc. EPEP is a Patient Empowerment Network program that serves as a secure space for healthcare providers to learn techniques for improving physician-patient communication and overcoming practice barriers. Today we are tackling best practices for talking about clinical trials with myeloma patients. One significant challenge for some providers is initiating conversations about clinical trials and determining the appropriate timing of those conversations.

While clinical trials are often described as embodying tomorrow’s medicine today, not every patient facing a myeloma diagnosis is well-informed about all available care options. Astonishingly, some patients and their care partners are never even introduced to the possibility of participating in clinical trials. How can we shift this trend? How do we make these conversations a standard part of healthcare discussions at the outset of care?

What strategies can we as healthcare professionals employ to effectively convey information about clinical trials and guide patients and families through the next steps? We are joined today by RuthAnn Gordon, Director of Clinical Trial Nursing at Memorial Sloan Kettering. Ms. Gordon oversees clinical trial nurses, and develops and implements policies, procedures, standards, and systems to improve quality and compliance in the conduct of clinical research. We are also joined by Dr. Beth Faiman, a nurse practitioner and research oncology professional at the Cleveland Clinic. Dr. Faiman is an active author, presenter, and educator on the topic of multiple myeloma. Thank you both for joining me for this very important conversation.

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Thank you for having us.

Dr. Nicole Rochester: So we have a lot to discuss as it relates to best practices for talking about clinical trials with myeloma patients and their families. And I think this is always a topic that deserves so much conversation, likely more than we will be able to dedicate today. And while it can be a broadly beneficial conversation to have, in the program today we are speaking to the unique needs of myeloma patients and their families.

Some of the topics we’ll tackle today are understanding the critical role of clinical trial nurses, healthcare provider to healthcare provider recommended strategies to effectively communicate about pretrial eligibility determination and the consenting process, and how to educate and mentor nursing professionals in community hospital settings and beyond, guiding them to assist patients and families through the subsequent steps of participating in a clinical trial.

So let’s get started by talking about the role of clinical trial nurses. And, Ms. Gordon, I’m going to start with you. We know that research nurses are at the front line of treating patients. Can you speak to your role, and how you believe it has changed over time?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Absolutely. First, I can tell you that I’ve been doing research nursing for over 20 years and really love the work. I think it’s important for patients to have that support when they’re going through a clinical trial. And so we’ve done a lot of work to make sure that they have that support. So our role is to really be able to guide the patient through the journey, making sure that they’re educated on what they can expect on the clinical trial, and not only in terms of what maybe the drug might be doing them in terms of side effects, but what is their schedule going to look like? When are they going to have to come in? How long are they going to be here? What does that mean? And how do we support them with their quality of life while they go through all the responsibilities that they as patients have on a clinical trial, and what do they need to do to get ready for that experience?

And so we’re guiding them, we’re educating them, we’re ensuring that they do understand the potential side effects, but do understand also what their role is in the clinical trial and what they can expect. And I think that in terms of what has changed is that we have really put more value on the fact that having that nurse that has the expertise in the clinical trial and really can gate keep all of the patient care coordination that that involves from a clinician experience and from a clinician perspective, has really helped to ensure that our patients are ready, that we can do our very complex trials. Because trials have changed so much in the last decade.

There’s so many more expectations. There’s so many more things that need to happen while they’re on the trial that really having that clinician doing that with the patient has improved our ability to do those kinds of complex trials. And so I think that really recognizing that having that clinician perspective at the partner, at the bedside with the patient has really helped us to expand the kind of trials that we can do.  

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And as a physician who acknowledges that the time that we are allotted with our patients is often very little, it really makes a lot of sense that you all are able to bridge those gaps in the patient education, and are critically important to this work. So thank you for the work that you do. Dr. Faiman, we know that patients with myeloma are living longer, and they’re dealing with a different set of challenges than perhaps they previously encountered. So can you speak to the critical role of nurses specifically in the myeloma trial setting today?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I must first start by saying that the successes in the treatment of multiple myeloma can be owed to the brave participation of the patients and the caregivers. So let’s not forget about the caregivers to support the patients with clinical trials. And I started as a clinical trials nurse in the 1990s managing these patients, and a nurse practitioner in 2002. And now my role is different also as a researcher. And so I have seen firsthand all these drug developments. And so the difference from before when we had very few available therapies to now we have an armamentarium of drugs, and so deciding whether or not to participate in a clinical trial is super important. And how can we support our patients who are now living a longer lifespan with all these cumulative physical and financial issues? How can the nurses support the patients to get the access to the drugs and access to the financial resources they need so that they continue living a good quality of life? I know we have a very robust program to talk about later on, but I think nurses can fill that critical gap of finding resources for patients to allow them to participate in clinical trials to live a better life.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. And thank you for acknowledging the role of the patients and their caregivers in all of the growth that we’ve seen in this field, in the research. Ms. Gordon, we know that diversity in clinical trials is lacking. Certainly there have been lots of reports about that. It’s gotten increasing attention over the last few years. There’s now regulations related to that. And while things are changing, we have a long way to go. And it’s also important that we celebrate the wins that we’ve achieved along the way. So my question for you is, do research nurses play a role in increasing diversity in clinical trials and also in trial innovation?

RuthAnn Gordon:  

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that one of the things that is important is community outreach, right? And so we have a lot of opportunities for research nurses. Well, as in large academic settings, a focus needs to be on exploring ways to have partnerships with our community organizations. And once those connections are established, the research nurses can play an extremely pivotal role in ensuring that we’re not only at point-of-consent educating, but way before that, getting involved in pre-screening activities in order to ensure that we’re looking at a diverse population.

And also to help with providers that are in the community that may have more advanced questions, and having the nurse being partners with those clinicians in order to help them get through the questions that they might have in a more timely manner. And so the research nurses that are attached to those academic centers have a pivotal role in ensuring that the community centers have support.

And in doing the pre-screening, I think is an important feature of having the research nurse also be involved in that process. And so I think that…we know that the community has needs, and we know that we need to increase that access. So looking at opportunities to partner with those settings, to me, with the research nurse, is really critical, and I think is an important way that we can do that.

Educating is, I’ll keep going back to that, when you get hands on that patient, making sure that they understand what they can expect. And any misconceptions. Clearing up misconceptions about being on clinical trials is really important so that when you have a patient that is eligible, that they feel comfortable and confident in joining that study.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Dr. Faiman, I’m going to come back to you. And my question for you is, can you speak to unforeseen or outdated practice-related barriers that may actually hinder the work of research nurses?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Absolutely. So I wanna preface this by saying in my mind. I think that both oncology nurses and advanced practice providers are highly trained professionals that should function within a multidisciplinary team. So that team, just as you mentioned before, Dr. Rochester, was the physician has limited time, maybe even the advanced practice provider has limited time. How can we harness all of our resources to provide the best care to that patient? And clinical trials are one of them. Clinical trials will offer support so that the patient can have access to a pharmacist, a social worker, a dedicated nurse, a dedicated line to call if they’re having a symptom. But to speak to some of the outdated procedures, again, it goes to scope of the practice. No matter how highly trained they are experientially or with credentialing, there are practice barriers within the hospital organization within state laws.

The nice thing about clinical trials though, is that nurses in most institutions are very able to watch that clinical protocol. They’ll look for who needs to hold a medication because of toxicity, consult with the provider, and then they’ll say, “Okay, hold your dose. And when your toxicity resolves, reduce it one dose level, and come back for labs,” or whatever that would entail. So while there are outdated practices historically, I think that within clinical trials nursing it provides some more autonomy for oncology nurses, again, as a part of that multidisciplinary team to enhance patient care.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That’s wonderful. Are there any additional solutions that you think are necessary as we continue to see advancements in myeloma?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Continuing education for these highly trained providers. And so those kind of…the education though, I’ll tell you, I think should focus a lot on the disparities in clinical research. One of the things I’m passionate about is highlighting the implicit and explicit biases that are in clinical research. Many of us will say, “Oh, that person won’t be a good clinical trial candidate because they live too far away or they don’t have a caregiver.” And so I’m really…I tell all of my nurses, nurse practitioners, even physicians, just ask a patient. Don’t think that because they live an hour away, they’re not going to want to participate in a well-designed clinical trial without even asking them. That doesn’t even allow them the opportunity to provide feedback.

And then not to mention all of the resources that are available to patients that provide, that participate in clinical trials. Many of the research studies will provide transportation or an overnight stay or some nominal, again, not trying to coerce the patients, but some nominal reimbursement for expenses to allow them to have access to that drug. So I can talk on and on, because I’m so passionate about this topic. But being aware that biases exist, through continuing education will hopefully enhance the diversity of clinical trials so that patients will be able to have access to care, and then that the clinical trial results are representative of the actual population of who we’re treating.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Thank you. I can definitely feel they’re both of your passion, and that’s why it’s so important that we have you here with us today for this conversation. So let’s shift focus a little bit and begin to talk about communication between healthcare providers to effectively communicate about pretrial eligibility determination and the consent process. So I’m going to go right back to you, Dr. Faiman. What do you think are the unique barriers that providers face when they’re speaking about myeloma trials to patients and their families?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Right. So I think multiple myeloma is unique in that there are such an explosion of new therapies within the last decade. There hasn’t been such momentum in any other cancer such as multiple myeloma. But, unfortunately, there are challenges such as language barriers and communication problems that overarching with all the different specialties. The geographic I had already mentioned in a previous discussion about the geographic barriers to participate in clinical trials, not meeting inclusion criteria, I think it takes an astute nurse or advanced practice provider or physician to now sequence the therapy.

So for example, they have new therapies such as BCMA-targeted drugs that are available through cellular therapy trials or bispecific antibody trials. And without getting too specific into the drugs, you need a specialist to be able to say, “Okay, if I give you this drug today, that will exclude you from a clinical trial that might be very innovative and promising in the future.”

So those are unique barriers to accessing clinical trials or standard therapies for that matter because of the plethora of therapies that are available. So getting in, having patients get in with a myeloma specialist, they might not see them on a regular basis, maybe employ telehealth techniques, see them once and then virtually connect, share information about what might be available. Those are ways that you can provide access to patients, caregivers, and others throughout their disease trajectory because they’re living longer than ever.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Which is a wonderful thing.

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yes. 

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Ms. Gordon, you’ve been doing this for a long time. In your experience, what are tried and true strategies that healthcare providers can implement to effectively communicate with their patients about clinical trials when speaking to pretrial eligibility determination and the consent process specifically?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think that an important thing whenever we’re talking to our patients is to really understand where they are with understanding and how they learn. So it’s important for us to know what their health literacy is so that we’re making sure that we’re talking in a language that they can understand and using words that are appropriate. And so that’s key. Clinical trials have a lot of comprehensive and complex assessments that are needed for pretrial eligibility, right?

So I think it’s really important to make sure that we are being transparent as to what they can expect. We don’t want them to have surprises later on and then not feel like they want to continue with that process. So I do recommend to my providers and my research nurses, sometimes get out the hard stuff up front. Know if they’re going to be there for 12-hour PKs. Let them know. It shouldn’t be a surprise. And I think that that really helps patients. First, they get involved in the process, they know what to expect, and you can really have more confidence in their adherence.

The other thing is to allow time for the conversations, right? We need to allow time for our patients to ask questions. And the consent process can be lengthy. There’s a lot on the document. Sometimes it’s quite long. So you wanna make sure that they’re in a state of mind to have the conversation, that you allow time for questions, and that you make it an exchange between the two of you. It’s a dialogue. It should be. And you should come with understanding where they’re at; understanding a little bit about what’s going on behind the scenes, right? What’s happening at home is important as you’re talking about pretrial eligibility, as you’re talking about what they can expect on trial, just to get a full picture of them.

So I think that those to me are very helpful. Providing take-home information to the patient so they have something to reflect on later is also really important, because they’re not going to grasp everything in that one session. And consenting is like an ongoing process, right? You have one conversation, you probably have 10 more.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

That is wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I really appreciate that both of you have highlighted the importance of health literacy, and meeting our patients and families where they are and making sure that they understand, and this idea that it’s a continuum: That there may be multiple conversations that will be necessary. Dr. Faiman, as the myeloma treatment landscape continues to expand thanks to clinical trials, how are clinical trial conversations evolving, and what do you feel should be top of mind?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

That’s an excellent question. Over 20 different drugs are available in various combinations. And so we talked about sequencing very briefly about having patients that have access to clinical trials, making sure they’re not exposed to this class, or maybe they needed to be exposed to this class of drug before they can get drug B, for example. And so sharing mutual information through shared decision-making, again, the patients sharing information and goals of care, the provider and healthcare team mutually sharing information, bring in your social worker or pharmacist, etcetera, and then you can mutually agree on a treatment for the patient. And so that is something we did not have 20 years ago. There were very few effective agents.

I like to remind patients when we provide clinical trial consent forms, that the language is written by lawyers, but it’s intended to protect you. I overemphasize that this is voluntary, and you can withdraw your consent at any time. But I try to go back and highlight why there’s stringent, plus or minus one day, maybe you can’t take off three days to go on a holiday weekend, because we really need to dose this drug on that day and obtain this blood information. So again, having the patients understand what’s involved in the clinical trials and then being able to provide information.

I like to also offer handouts. So the International Myeloma Foundation has clinical trials and diversity handouts. And then another one that I really like is by the FDA that describes the importance of clinical trials. I give that to everybody. So at diagnosis, if you’re on a standard care treatment, you’re not receiving a clinical trial. Everybody that comes into my office that I see for myeloma amyloidosis and related disorders, I would say, “You are a candidate for clinical trial now, but if I or somebody else does not involve you or ask you to participate, then ask us. Just ask us about clinical trials.” I even have a pen that says “Ask me about clinical trials” so that everybody can see it.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

I love the idea of a pen. Wonderful. Well, let’s move on to how to educate and mentor nursing professionals. Both of you are nursing professionals, and you’ve clearly highlighted in this program so far the importance of the role of nurses in this clinical trial process. So, Ms. Gordon, I’m going to go to you. We know that one significant challenge for some providers is actually initiating conversations about clinical trials and also determining the appropriate timing. Can you speak to whether care variation may pose challenges in community hospital settings, perhaps compared to academic hospitals?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the most important things about when to talk to the patient is every time, anytime, right? I think that we should be asking them if they’re interested in clinical trials. If they haven’t been engaged in that, we should be talking to them about, “You know, there’s maybe a chance at some time in our partnership together that we will be talking about clinical trials.” And introducing that up front I think is really important so that we don’t leave clinical trials sort of as a last thought and the patient have that feeling.

And I think that for the community setting, that’s one of the things that may be a challenge, is because it is hard to put a patient on a clinical trial and run it from a community setting. So it’s, how do we give them the support and resources so that it’s not so hard and that they do offer it and talk to their patients as much as possible about it? And I feel like that’s what we need to do more with these partnerships with academic settings, is that we have to give them support so that it’s not so hard, and that that clinical trials first of mind to them when they’re planning care for their patients.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

I see a theme here: Partnership, collaboration. Dr. Faiman, as we continue on this topic, and as someone who has been a consistent figure in the continuum of care, how do you guide other nursing professionals when it comes to clinical trial communication? Do you have specific tips or tricks or things that you can share with the audience?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Yeah, absolutely. So I think I have a unique perspective having been a clinical trials nurse, nurse practitioner, and now I conduct, independently, clinical trials. And so I, throughout that whole journey, so I share my experiences and some of the key tips that I like to share with other nurses and healthcare providers is just coming to the patient level. And as Ruthie had said a moment ago, at each encounter you have that opportunity to educate that patient about their labs, what’s their remission status, their disease status, what drugs are they on, what worked, what didn’t work? And the ones that are in remission for a while, one, two, three, five years, we have discussions about next therapy. So I say to them, “Okay, now, we have a great clinical trial. I think everything’s going very well with your disease remission status, but let’s make sure that you know what might be the next best thing for you.”

And I start planting that seed, giving them information about next therapy so that it’s not that, “Oh my gosh, I thought I was never going to relapse and now I need another treatment.” It’s okay, we have a game plan, we’re here in this together, let’s get some information. So disseminating this at this critical information to nurses at national conferences about the different drugs that are available, the toxicities, and how to offer them to our patients, I think is really important. But really just cheering in that partnership, as we just talked about, is really key to success, I think.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Great. Well, it’s time to wrap up our roundtable. And I have truly enjoyed this conversation. I have personally learned a lot. I’m sure that our audience will learn a lot as well. So I’d like to get closing thoughts from each of you. So I’ll start with you, Ms. Gordon. What is the most important takeaway message that you wanna leave with other healthcare professionals who may be watching?

RuthAnn Gordon:

Thank you. First, thank you for having me at this. This has been an amazing experience, and I want the providers out there to not be afraid of clinical trials, to look at opportunities to work with nurses to help support you in those clinical trials, to have the conversations with your patients early and often, and to work with your community partners.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

And thank you. Thank you, Ms. Gordon. What about you, Dr. Faiman?

Dr. Beth Faiman:

Well, I guess I would say never underestimate for the nurses, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, social workers, physicians, anyone on the healthcare team. Never underestimate the unique role that you enact in the care of patients with myeloma or other disorders. Use your voice to speak up. If you think a patient is a candidate for a clinical trial but that physician or other provider hasn’t recommended it to them, then tell them why. You can refer them yourself as well. Ask patients about barriers to participation. Is it physical, financial, social? You can’t take time off of work. And then provide that assistance in counseling. It takes a big effort to support our patients, but we would’ve never gotten to where we are with treatment of multiple myeloma in 2024 without patient participation in clinical trials. So whatever we can do to enhance diversity, minimize bias, and support our patients, please try to do the best to do your part.

Dr. Nicole Rochester:

Well, thank you both, Ms. Gordon, Dr. Faiman, for this awesome conversation. We have learned a lot about how we got to where we are with myeloma. And thank you again for pointing out early on, it’s the patients and their caregivers and their participation in clinical trials that has led to the landscape where we are now with so many drugs available. And that really highlights the importance of clinical trials. We talked about diversity of clinical trials. 

We talked about the implicit and explicit biases that all of us have, and that sometimes may preclude us from recommending trials for patients that can benefit from this therapy. And we’ve talked about the importance of having these conversations, not once, not twice, but every time that you are in the presence of a patient and their family. And also just the partnership and the collaboration that has already taken place, and that we hope to continue to foster as we move forward. So thank you both again, and thank you all for tuning in to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients Program. I’m Dr. Nicole Rochester. 

PODCAST: Follicular Lymphoma Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Kami Maddocks

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Follicular lymphoma expert, Dr. Kami Maddocks discusses the latest in follicular lymphoma, meaningful highlights from the American Society of Hematology 2023 meeting and answers questions submitted by patients and care partners.

Dr. Maddocks is a hematologist/oncologist specializing in treating lymphatic diseases from The Ohio State University. Learn more about Dr. Maddocks.

See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

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Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Welcome to the START HERE Patient Empowerment Network Program. This program bridges the expert and patient voice, enabling patients and care partners to feel comfortable asking questions of their healthcare team. Joining me today is Hematologist Oncologist, Dr. Kami Maddocks, Professor of Clinical Internal Medicine in the Division of Hematology at the Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center.

Dr. Maddocks specializes in treating patients with B-cell malignancies, including non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, and chronic lymphocytic leukemia. Dr. Maddocks researches new therapies for these hematologic malignancies largely through evaluating new targeted therapies in clinical trials. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Maddocks.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

It’s really a pleasure to be here with you, Lisa. Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa Hatfield:

The world is complicated, but understanding your follicular lymphoma diagnosis and treatment options along your journey doesn’t have to be. The goal of START HERE is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of your follicular lymphoma treatment and survivorship. Joining us today are patients and care partners facing a follicular lymphoma diagnosis, some of which are newly diagnosed, in active treatment, watch and wait, and also living for years with their disease. No matter where you are in your journey, this program is designed to provide easy-to-understand, reliable, and digestible information to help you make informed decisions. I’m thrilled you’ve joined us.

Please remember before we start to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There is great information there that will be useful during this program and after. So let’s get started. Dr. Maddocks, there is a great deal going on in terms of emerging treatment options and clinical trial data in follicular lymphoma. Can you speak a bit to the exciting developments in follicular lymphoma treatment and the major highlights that are just coming out of the ASH 2023 meeting?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, I think it is really exciting where everything is at right now in the development of treatments for follicular lymphoma. I think one of the most exciting developments is in the immunotherapy treatments that we have. So just a year ago, we saw the approval of the first bispecific antibody in relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. So bispecific antibodies are immunotherapy. They target a protein on the lymphoma cell, the follicular lymphoma, but then they also target the T cell to activate it to engage the immune system to attack the lymphoma.

So these bispecific antibodies have been highly effective in relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. And what we saw coming out of ASH is some data looking at these in the frontline setting. So a lot of patients will get treated with immunotherapy with rituximab (Rituxan) antibody or chemoimmunotherapy with rituximab in combination with chemo therapies. And we saw some data looking at activity of these bispecific antibodies as the first-line treatment. In addition, currently right now, they’re approved as…the drug that’s approved is called mosunetuzumab-axgb (Lunsumio). That’s approved as a single agent in the relapsed/refractory setting.

And so there were some smaller trials looking at this in combination with other agents to see the outcomes that that produced. I think one of the exciting things is looking at it in combination with lenalidomide (Revlimid), which is an approved oral immunomodulatory therapy in relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma. And then just lastly, I’ll say there were a few smaller studies looking at combinations of oral targeted therapies and immune therapies in the frontline setting as well.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you for that. And with so many of these developments, what do you think are the most important highlights for patients and families with current treatment with clinical trials? Anything that you can highlight upon for patients and families?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

I think, really, when you look at follicular lymphoma or more recent approvals that were looking at bispecific antibodies, chimeric antigen receptor, CAR-T cells, have been approved in relapsed follicular lymphoma, EZH2 inhibitors, so targeted therapies lenalidomide. I mean, really, when you look at follicular lymphoma, we see that patients are living longer and longer. Follicular lymphoma for many patients is somewhat like a chronic disease.

It’s managed over time with periods where they get treatment and then don’t. And what you look at with all of our therapies is we really are looking at immunotherapy and targeted therapies, both in the relapsed setting, but also now in the frontline setting, as opposed to or in place of chemotherapy.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you. So you probably have a number of patients who are in the watch-and-wait mode right now. When do you decide when you use these particular therapies? And if you use them earlier on, is there any chance of managing the follicular lymphoma longer or a longer remission?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

That’s a great question. So from what we know from follicular lymphoma, it’s, as I mentioned, an indolent lymphoma, not curable, but very treatable. So many patients that are diagnosed with follicular lymphoma, the median overall survival is very long, and it’s more, again, like a chronic disease that we manage with treatment. So sometimes we recommend watch-and-wait because patients, there’s never been any study showing that early treatment with the therapies we had improved overall survival. So it’s a balance between deciding when patients have a need for treatment versus not exposing them to treatment that can cause toxicities, if we know that it ultimately doesn’t make them live longer.

But, of course, we want to both treat patients who need disease treatment either for symptoms or for things that are going on by the size of their lymph nodes. So when patients have low blood counts, when they have symptomatic lymph nodes, when they have lymph nodes that are potentially causing a problem to an organ, or we foresee that it could cause a problem to an organ, when they have certain burdens of disease or when they have enough and large lymph nodes that we think that there’s going to be a problem in the near future without treating is when we decide to initiate that treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

So when you do have patients going through therapy, what are the typical side effects? And how do you help them manage those side effects of treatment?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, that’s a great question, and it’s very dependent, because we have so many different treatments now. It’s very dependent on the treatments that the patient’s getting. So things like single-agent antibody therapy with single-agent rituximab, most of the time, the biggest risk of that is the first time a patient can get it, they can have an infusion reaction. That’s managed as it’s happening. And then they tolerate that, in general, fairly well. That does wipe out the lymphocytes, as most of the treatments do, and puts patients at increased risk of infections, particularly viral infections for a period of time.

Chemotherapy, the most common chemo that we give for follicular lymphoma, I would say nausea, fatigue, and an increased risk of infection are kind of the bigger things. Bendamustine (Treanda) is a commonly used chemotherapy for follicular lymphoma, and that’s some of the big side effects from that.

Lenalidomide, the oral pill, so cytopenias infection, GI toxicity and rash are potentially the more common side effects of that. Less common, but we’re always concerned about blood clots, so most patients will take either an aspirin or a blood thinner, depending on their clot history when they’re on lenalidomide. The bispecific antibodies have a particular risk called cytokine release syndrome, so that immune systems activated, but it can almost get overactivated.

The most common symptom of that is fever, and so patients are counseled very closely on that. But activation of the immune system with that fever can also include changes in blood pressure or the need for some oxygen. Some of the CAR T-cell therapy has the same risk of the cytokine release, also has potential neuro side effects. And then longer term is just how long the patients’ immune systems take to recover. There can be risk for infections.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you for that information, that overview. That’s great information for patients to have. So regarding clinical trials right now, are there any clinical trials that you are conducting or that you’re particularly excited about for patients that they might want to ask their providers about?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yes, so we’re also looking at opening a trial for frontline follicular lymphoma that looks at the use of bispecific antibodies. So I think that’s very exciting, because in general, it’s a well-tolerated therapy. And I think if it gives us a chance to produce very good outcomes, but without the toxicity of chemotherapy in the frontline setting, that to me is super exciting for patients. We’re also looking at different bispecific antibodies. So they currently approved one target CD20. We have a CD19-targeted bispecific antibody that I also think is exciting to look at the potential for different targets because then once a patient has had one, you’re targeting something different, and the thought is that they might still be able to respond to a different one.

Lisa Hatfield: Yeah. So with bispecifics then, is that continuous therapy, or is that limited duration therapy?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

It actually depends on the bispecific. So in follicular right now, the one approved is for a limited duration. When you look at a few of the others that have been approved and other lymphomas that are being studied in follicular lymphoma, there’s a little bit of a variation between continued treatment and limited-duration therapy. I think what’s exciting about a lot of the combination studies is they are more looking at a defined period of time with the combinations.

Lisa Hatfield: Which I’m sure a lot of patients love to hear that. Limited duration, there’s an end to this possibly, so yeah. 

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah. Nobody wants to be on treatment forever. 

Lisa Hatfield:

That is true. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for that important overview, Dr. Maddocks. It’s that time where we answer questions that we’ve received from you in the audience. Remember, as patients, we should always feel empowered to ask our healthcare providers any and all questions we might have about our treatment and prognosis. Please remember, this program is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your own medical team.

So we have a patient who is asking, “What is the recommended frequency and length of imaging PET-CT as a diagnostic tool?” And I wonder if it might be helpful, since we have a broad range of…our audience kind of runs the gamut of newly diagnosed to people who are in remission, people in watch and wait, maybe you can explain the frequency and length of imaging for those who are watching and waiting, and also for those who are maybe in remission, and those who are currently in active treatment.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so I think this is a great question. I think the important thing about PET scans is to recognize where and when they have a role in follicular lymphoma, because they’re not used as monitoring tools in follicular lymphoma long term in either watch and wait, typically, or in patients who’ve had treatment. So follicular lymphoma, when patients have a diagnosis, we like to get a PET scan, because it helps us stage the follicular lymphoma a little bit better than just generalized CT scans. When patients are being monitored and they have a change in symptoms, a change on maybe routine CT scans and their physical exam in their labs, then you may want a PET scan. We always want to get one before a patient requires treatment, and then after a patient has treatment to help determine the response by PET scan.

As far as monitoring in patients who are on watch and wait or monitoring in a patient who’s received treatment, routine PET imaging is actually not recommended. It’s not recommended by the guidelines. And honestly, they’re not usually approved by insurance for routine monitoring, because they’re not recommended. So what is recommended is seeing your physician, usually at a three to six-month window, depending on where you are in your journey. And then usually, for routine monitoring, CT scans are done. If somebody’s in watch and wait, oftentimes they might initially be done at three months, then six months, then even yearly, and same with after treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

All right, thank you. So another person is asking, “How long does it take for the immune system to really start bouncing back after follicular lymphoma treatment? And what blood test results indicate a weakening immune system?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks: 

Yeah, so this is a great question. [chuckle] It also can be a complicated question with many different answers. So one, it can depend on the treatment that a patient receives. Two, it can actually depend on their different parts to the immune system. So different parts of the immune system can recover at different time periods from treatment. So acutely, our neutrophils are something that often gets…they’re bacteria infection fighting cells. Those are the cells that during chemotherapy, when that count gets low and patients are counseled on if you have a fever during your treatment, you need to be evaluated and be seen because if you have an infection and a fever during chemo or some of these treatments, your blood counts are low, you might need to be in the hospital on IV antibiotics.

So those neutrophil part of it are usually quicker to recover, so they drop with treatment and then recover pretty quickly with each cycle, including after an ended treatment cycle. Sometimes when patients have been treated with several different therapies, it can be harder for those cells to recover. They can stay lower for longer. Then there’s a component of the immune system, so we are ripping out the lymphocytes, because that’s what the cancers have.

And so things targeted. Chemotherapy in general kills the lymphocytes but there also are targeted therapies like rituximab bispecific antibodies CAR T-cells those are particularly wiping…targeted towards proteins on the lymphocytes and wiping them out. Those can be for a more prolonged time. In general, we usually think of about a six-month period so patients can be at increased risk for viral infections in that six-month period may not respond as well to vaccines in that period.

But for some patients it takes longer and some patients recover quicker. It also can depend on where patients are at in their journey because every therapy that they’ve had can take a little bit longer to recover. The last part I’ll add is just sometimes when the lymphocytes are wiped out for a long time people’s proteins, their immunoglobulins that help fight infection get low. And so sometimes we actually will end up giving patients replacement of IVIG to help if they’re having lots of infections.

Lisa Hatfield:

All right. Thank you. Another good question, and this comes up with many blood cancers or a lot of cancers. Should patients be mindful of beauty products such as shampoos, soaps, and sunblocks when in remission for follicular lymphoma?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

That’s another great question. I am not aware of any data connecting those specific things.I think patients definitely should be wearing sunblock, because we know that a lot of patients with blood cancers can get secondary malignancies. So being careful of being…we also know, I should say, even patients who are getting treated can have a more sensitivity to the sun. So being careful with sun precautions, either avoiding the sun or wearing sunblock, making sure you’re covered when you go outside. I’ll even say I’ve seen a few patients who during treatment have gotten bad windburns. So your skin definitely can be more sensitive when you’re receiving therapies.

Lisa Hatfield:

All right, thank you. Let’s see here. This patient is asking if you are in remission for a long period of time after follicular lymphoma treatment, can you technically be cured in some cases, or are you considered to still have the cancer?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So that is a great question. There’s a term that’s used in follicular lymphoma called a functional cure. So we have patients that essentially get treated, and they live long enough that they die from something else without their follicular lymphoma ever relapsing. So while we say from what we know if somebody lives long enough that this disease is likely going to relapse at some point, there are patients that will be treated, and the disease will never come back.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. That’s helpful, thank you. Can patients facing follicular lymphoma be considered immunocompromised if they’re in remission?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

I think this kind of goes back to when we talked about the immune system recovery that this can be a little bit of a complicated question, because it depends a little bit on the treatment that they got, how far out from the treatment they are and how many treatments they’ve had in the past. So, in general, if I have a patient that has received therapy, their counts have recovered, they in general look like…their lab work looks like their immune system, then in general I would say that they have an immune system that’s likely similar to somebody who didn’t have the follicular lymphoma, and they’re going to be able to fight infections and respond to vaccines.

I think what we do know is sometimes when patients get rituximab maintenance or obinutuzumab (Gazyva) maintenance or some of the chemotherapies there are some patients that can have a longer time that they’re immunosuppressed. So I think this is always something that’s good to ask your doctor for. In your specific situation with the treatment you received, when do you expect to have a regularly functioning immune system?

Lisa Hatfield:

For follicular lymphoma, what are the predictors of transformation and relapse, and what symptoms should patients be looking out for and tell their doctor about?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so I think this is a great question. As far as just in everybody predicting when they’re going to progress, when they’re going to relapse, we don’t actually have great ways to do that right now. One of the things that has been shown to potentially predict things is for patients who do receive treatment if they have an early relapse, that suggests that their disease is going to behave more aggressively. As far as looking for relapse, things that people want to look for, not all patients will have symptoms but certainly if patients feel any lumps or bumps if they start…I like to tell my patients if you…patients usually know if something’s wrong.

So everybody’s going to have aches and pains, everybody’s going to have the normal infections, but if you’re not feeling well significant fatigue night sweats fevers are always something that we look for but that’s not something that everybody has. New pains, not feeling well, just kind of the inability to feel like you can keep up with what you’re doing daily, those are always things that you should at least call in to see if you should be evaluated. It’s important to know that follicular lymphoma patients are followed. As I said, you are followed forever. We do also watch your blood counts to make sure that we’re not seeing changes in blood counts, changes in lactate dehydrogenase which is a non-specific marker but something that we follow in lymphoma.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And one follow-up to that question also. So are there follicular lymphoma specialists? If a patient is maybe in an area that doesn’t have a large academic center or a large cancer institution, do you recommend they see somebody who specializes in follicular lymphoma or can they see even for a consult or do you think that their local hematologist oncologist is very familiar with that themselves? Do you have recommendations?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so that’s a great question. Local, I think follicular lymphoma is common enough that a lot of our general oncologists who see everything see follicular lymphoma. I think it never hurts of course to ask about clinical trials. So if that’s something that might be available. If it’s available, it might be worth going to a specialist for. If there’s concerns, I think it’s always a good idea to get a second opinion to make sure that a patient is comfortable.

I think if a patient seems to have a more aggressive behaving follicular or if they’ve had a lot of different treatments, that’s also if you’re seeing a general oncologist at a time, that it’s good to see if there are clinical trials or if a specialist has anything new or different.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thanks. So we have a person asking, “Does lymphoma recurrence always happen in an aggressive manner?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

That’s a great question. The answer is no on that, and in fact lymphoma recurrence doesn’t always need to be treated just because it does recur. So when you look at follicular lymphoma, there are patients who are in a watch-and-wait period. When they’re diagnosed, they’ll eventually progress to requiring treatment or most…well, there are patients who might not. Once they require treatment, they get a time period without…most of them will get a time period without disease.

There are patients who will…that you’ll find lymph nodes growing on CT scans maybe that you’re doing monitoring for, but the patient will otherwise feel well. They won’t have, necessarily, very big lymph nodes. Their blood counts will be okay and you may say, okay, just like you had watch-and-wait to start with, we’re going to watch and wait right now with this relapse, because you don’t have any indications that are saying we need to treat this.

And again that doesn’t necessarily make our patient live longer. So you want to balance their quality of life and toxicities of treatment. There are patients who will…when they relapse, they will have indications for treatments, and then there are patients who will potentially have more aggressive relapses and be very symptomatic or have larger lymph nodes.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. All right. So one person says, “I’m currently in remission, what can I expect in my future? How long does remission last? And is treatment after remission the same as initial treatment?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So that is very dependent on what a patient receives. So there are different kind…of a lot of our treatments we look at median times. When patients have relapse, that can be a little bit different for single agent antibody therapy versus antibody in combination with chemoimmunotherapy for how long that treatment remission lasts.

As far as we don’t typically reuse a treatment once we have used it before, although there is data in follicular lymphoma when patients receive single agent antibody. So rituximab alone, if they do well with that single agent immunotherapy for a long period, they may receive re-treatment with just that so long as they don’t have disease that requires more aggressive treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. So is that more likely to happen then if a patient maybe wasn’t refractory to it, if they just stopped using it for some reason? Would that be more common for that to happen to go back on that same drug?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So with rituximab, we use it alone and in combination. So there are some patients that don’t necessarily have what we call a large tumor, and they don’t have a lot of lymph nodes or they don’t have large lymph nodes but they might be symptomatic from them or the location might be problematic. And so once these lymph nodes get a certain size, they usually don’t have as good of a response to single agent antibody therapy. But there are patients who have small lymph nodes that aren’t as big but again are causing a problem that can get completely…you give a short course of the rituximab, and it can last for a very long time and then you would consider again using a short course of that rituximab.

The chemotherapies we have, we don’t reuse chemotherapy, for the most part. Some of that, for a while, there was bendamustine if patients got five, six, 10-year remissions out of it. Sometimes they would re-get that chemotherapy. But I think we’ve just seen so many newer therapies approved in the last five six years. Like the bispecifics, the EZH2 inhibitors, lenalidomide, CAR T, we had different PI3K inhibitors available for a while. And so I think it was just that you had the ability to offer a patient something that they never had before, and that is more appealing.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. So you spoke a little bit about IVIG infusions before and this person is saying that, “I’m having to do IVIG infusions, which started years after my treatment due to my IgG numbers being low. Are nausea and headache side effects common?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so some patients can have nausea, headache, myalgia, body aches, some get fevers and some infusion reactions. For some patients, they can have that from the start, some patients can develop it. That’s always a good thing to talk to your doctor about. There are different products for IVIG, and sometimes patients are able to switch products. I will say IVIG can be very insurance-dependent, so it’s also sometimes what…the formulation that insurance…an individual’s insurance covers. But yes, these are side effects, they’re worth, if they’re getting worse or lasting a long time, making sure that it’s discussed with the physician prescribing it.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. All right. One person is saying, “I’m in watch and wait currently. Is it possible that I’ll never need treatment or how long do you wait and what am I waiting for?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

That is a great question. There are patients in watch and wait who will never require treatment. Watching and waiting, we’re watching blood counts, watching the size of lymph nodes. So things that we’re watching for and you’re watching for are changes in lymph nodes size, so are they growing? Are they becoming more symptomatic? Is there a rapid change in them? Are we seeing a change in the blood counts? Are patients starting to have a drop in their blood counts which can happen if somebody’s spleen is getting bigger if they have lymphoma in their bone marrow and that’s progressing, watching for if the lymph nodes are causing a problem, you notice somebody have one in a location like the neck that’s starting to make swallowing difficult or changes in voice, that’s something you want to treat. And then there’s something called B symptoms that we watch for. So if the patient had night sweats…

 …night sweats are like drenching night sweats, soak the bed, have to change clothes potentially sheets, fevers, so daily fevers that occur, or significant or rapid weight loss for no reason.  All those are kinds of things that we want people to watch for. And we discussed a little bit too if patients start having extreme fatigue, not feeling well, not being able to eat, not having appetites if they have a new pain. And again everybody can have aches and pains. But if you’re having pain that’s not going away or some sort of symptom that’s not improving, those are all things we want to definitely have checked out.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. I imagine with some of your patients in that mode, there’s what I call the mental gymnastics of thinking, okay, I have this cancer, but I can’t do anything about it, and these symptoms are really vague that come up. So do you allow your patients just to contact you if they’re saying, “I think I have these symptoms, I’m nervous about this.” Can they come in and have a visit with you or contact you at any time?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Oh, yes. So we have a 24-hour triage line. I recommend that if patients have a question or concern, it’s better to ask us because if we don’t know about it, we can’t help is the first thing. Usually, we talk to the patient and say, okay, how long has this been going on and see if it’s a red flag like you need to come in right now or is this something that maybe we might recommend getting a set of labs to look at certain labs to see if they’ve changed at all. We might say okay this seems like something we should actually see you for, but I want CT scans too so let’s order them so I can have that information when you see me.

So, yeah, I think people should always call with any signs, symptoms, concerns, and then it can be addressed. Now, there are some things that we might say, okay, we think based on everything that new cough is probably more likely a respiratory infection. It’s okay to see your PCP, but we also go through that as well. So yes, I think it’s always best to check in and not let something go.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. I’m guessing that’s challenging for some of those people in that mode, just thinking, well, I’m just waiting here, so that’s got to be a little bit more challenging.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

I think you’re absolutely right. And sometimes there’s a benefit to…certainly like rituximab therapy when there is a disease there, and it is a challenge to think that it’s not being treated.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. This is I guess the last or second to the last question we have. Dr. Maddocks, can you speak to maintenance therapy and monitoring and follicular lymphoma, and what signs of infection should patients and care partners be aware of during treatment?

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Yeah, so maintenance therapy, in follicular lymphoma is something, so maintenance antibody therapy after initial chemo…usually, chemoimmunotherapy is something that’s been studied that’s shown in some patients to provide a benefit as far as keeping disease away longer and a remission longer. But then it’s also been shown to be associated with a higher risk of infection, because you’re keeping those lymphocytes wiped out, particularly when it’s given as maintenance after certain chemotherapies in addition to the immunotherapy. So it can be a balance. I think maintenance isn’t something that every follicular lymphoma patient gets, but it’s something also that is used.

So that’s the first thing in discussion with your doctor, is this something that maintenance is recommended? Why or why not? Then watching during maintenance usually if people start to have more infections, which are oftentimes sinus respiratory infections, then we’re thinking about, okay, is this somebody that has low immunoglobulins? Do we need to check those? Are we worried about them? Needing to stop maintenance, potentially needing IVIG.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. And then this is a Lisa question, “Do you know if there’s any data to suggest that the follicular lymphoma or any type of non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma has a familial or hereditary component?”

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

So there are very small number of…in non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, there are some small familial components. Unlike, however, say breast cancer where there’s specific genes to test for, we don’t have that as a screening here in non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.

Lisa Hatfield:

Dr. Maddocks, thank you so much for being part of this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program. It’s these conversations that help patients truly empower themselves along their treatment journey. And on behalf of patients like myself and those watching, thank you very much, Dr. Maddocks.

Dr. Kami Maddocks:

Lisa, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a great conversation and hopefully it can help some people.

Lisa Hatfield:

I hope so too. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network program.

PODCAST: Gastric Cancer: How to Access the Best Care and Treatment for YOU

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Advances in gastric cancer research have led to more personalized therapy for patients. Dr. Yelena Janjigian discusses how biomarker testing can help guide a patient’s prognosis and treatment path, reviews currently available gastric cancer therapies, and shares tips for self-advocacy.

Dr. Yelena Janjigian is Chief of Gastrointestinal Oncology Service at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. 

See More From INSIST! Gastric Cancer

Download Resource Guide

 

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program focuses on helping patients understand gastric cancer treatment options based on their individual disease. We’ll review the latest research and provide tips for self-advocacy to help patients access better care.  

Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email that you received about this webinar contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar. At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey. Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars.  

And finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Yelena Janjigian. Dr. Janjigian, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Janjigian:

Thank you so much, Katherine, for this opportunity. My name is Yelena Janjigian. I’m a medical oncologist. And I oversee the GI oncology service at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York. We’re a large group of doctors, over 40 physicians who treat everything from esophagus cancer to rectal cancer. And my research focus and my passion has been in developing new treatments for patients with stomach cancer, so I personally focus on this disease clinically and from research perspective.  

Katherine:

Okay. Lovely.  

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I’d like to start by learning about the latest research news. Are there recent advances in gastric cancer that patients should know about? 

Dr. Janjigian:

That’s a great question. The field of gastric cancer research has accelerated and evolved immensely over the last three years. We’ve had several important approvals for treatment of metastatic disease both for biomarkers selected population and immunotherapy targeted therapies. So, there’s been a lot of research, a lot of effort and some positive data that the patients and clinicians should be aware of.  

Katherine:

And what excites you about the research you’re involved with? 

Dr. Janjigian:

I’ve been focused on gastric cancer for nearly two decades. So, my recent advances have really helped to understand how we can improve patient’s survival better, potentially cure more patients, and understand the different subsets of cancer treatments and patients with gastric cancer understanding that not all gastric cancer is the same.  

So, I think being able to zoom in on different subsets and target personalized approaches for each individual patient is why I stay in research, why I stay in gastric cancer research because we’ve been able to make some major breakthroughs.  

Katherine:

That’s excellent news. How can patients stay up to date with treatment options? 

Dr. Janjigian:

That’s a great question. And recently there’s been a lot of resources online through both the big pharma really educating patients with patient-friendly handouts. And many of my big recent papers when we publish them in big journals like Lancet or Lancet Oncology, for example, or JCO, there’s always a patient-friendly handout that comes with that data that helps patients understand some of the endpoints, how do we describe why this study is positive? 

Or why is the FDA decided to approve the drug? So, there are many patient handouts that come with some of these papers. And it’s interesting, a lot of my patients come in. When they see me, they say, “Oh, it’s so good to finally meet you. I’ve watched a lot of your videos.” So, because of COVID actually, a lot of the scientific content that used to be just in in-person meetings behind doors for doctors, now it’s all online because a lot of these scientific presentations are now made for virtual content as well. So, patients have access to it. That’s double-edged sometimes. It’s a little bit of an information overload, and it may actually make patients feel more anxious than reassure them, right? Because it’s a lot of jargon and not too – but some patients find it helpful.  

Katherine:

Yeah, I can see that. It can be a double-edged sword.   

Dr. Janjigian:

Yeah.   

Katherine:

Well, thank you for that advice. So, now that we’ve heard what’s happening in research, let’s review some more basic information about gastric cancer. First, gastric cancer is sometimes referred to as stomach cancer. Is that the same thing, or are both terms correct?  

Dr. Janjigian:

Yeah. So, stomach is really where the cancer starts. But we can talk about stomach or abdomen. But gastric and stomach are the same tumor location basically. What’s interesting actually, some patients also have tumors that start at the bottom of their esophagus and extend into the stomach. So, biologically a lot of these cancers behave similarly. In fact, in United States the most common location for these cancers actually is in between the gastric esophageal junction and the stomach.  

So, it’s in the location in of the cancer that’s at the very top of the stomach. But in short, stomach cancer and gastric cancer are interchangeable. And as I mentioned, for many of our viewers, actually gastro-esophageal junction is also part of the same disease.  

Katherine:

Could you tell us what tests are used to diagnose gastric cancer? 

Dr. Janjigian:

Most of our patients, when they come in to see me, by then the diagnosis of cancer has been made because I’m on oncologist.  

In clinical practice, patients often present with vague symptoms or no symptoms at all. And that’s an important point for our clinicians to understand. In patients who have chronic acid reflux or have, for example, other risk factors such as H. pylori infection, often they end up getting endoscopy at the time, for example, for their first colonoscopy. So, the age of colonoscopy, the first colonoscopy has is getting earlier and earlier with each update, because colon cancer is increasing in incidents in younger adults. So, sometimes patients present and get first endoscopy, for example, which is an upper test with a camera when they’re getting their colonoscopies. In other patients, unfortunately, they present with more progressive symptoms. Often, it’s difficulty swallowing, regurgitation of food, and weight loss, which is obviously very dramatic.  

And so they end up getting an endoscopy because of that and referred by their doctors.   

Katherine:

How is gastric cancer staged? And what do the stages mean? 

Dr. Janjigian:

Yeah. So, the most important part of the staging of gastric cancer and what patients ask me, “What is my risk of cancerous recurrence? What is my stage?” Really what it comes down to is the depth of invasion. So, it’s not only the size of the tumor, but how deep is it going into the muscle of the stomach, because stomach and your esophagus are basically a muscular bag, right? And so how deep is the invasion of the tumor into the wall? And also how likely are the lymph nodes to being involved? So, we assess it based on clinical symptoms such as swallowing difficulty and so forth. But in some patients, because the tumor is lower down in their stomach, they may not have very many symptoms, because there’s a lot more give in this muscular bag that our stomach is.  

And so we test the endoscopic ultrasound to look at the depth of an invasion and also other X-ray type imaging such as a PET scan, a P-E-T scan or a CAT scan, which gives us a sense of tumor location whether or not we think the lymph nodes may be involved. And ultimately the final way to assess, especially in patients who are undergoing surgery, is their microscopic involvement of the lymph nodes? Because that often drives the likelihood of cancer coming back after surgery.  

Katherine:

And how do the stages work for gastric cancer? 

Dr. Janjigian:

So, in gastric cancer it’s either early, intermediate, or late stage. And this goes from stage I to IV. So, stage IV  tumors is where most of the cancers are present. Over probably 50 percent of our patients present already at the time of diagnosis with more advanced stages. 

Biologically this cancer just tends to move quickly. So, even in between endoscopies in patients who get endoscopies frequently, often it goes from 0 to stage III or IV because of the lymph node involvement and also spread of microscopic cells, right? Tiny, tiny cells before we even see them, they spread through the bloodstream to other organs or lymph nodes outside of your abdomen. So, that’s considered to be stage IV. And then early, early stage disease is stage I. Those usually that we can just scoop them out using endoscopic procedures. They don’t even need to have full surgery. And then stage II and III is usually if there’s some involvement of the tumor through the muscle or into the muscle of the stomach and also some lymph node involvement. But that’s how we stage it.  

Katherine:

Okay. I’d like to move onto current gastric cancer treatment options. Can you provide an overview of what’s available now?  

Dr. Janjigian:

Right. So, in patients with intermediate or early-stage tumors, really surgery is the main way to cure patients. Occasionally when we have an amazing response to chemotherapy or chemotherapy with immunotherapy or just immunotherapy, we can avoid surgery. But in most patients, surgery in early-stage disease is a gold standard for cure. Of course, it can be a very jarring thing to say to someone. “We have to take out. your stomach.” But patients do live without either fully their stomach removed or partially removed. And that’s the gold standard. We do additionally other treatments to help maximize chances of cure, but surgery is the main state. As I mentioned earlier, most of our patients, however, present with later stages where surgery is not feasible.  

And when I say it’s not feasible, we would only attempt an operation if we thought there was a possibility of removing the cancer completely. Leaving some of the tumor behind, even if it’s only 1 percent of the cancer behind, makes patients unwell. They may not be able to tolerate additional chemo, so we do not recommend doing suboptimal surgery unless cancer can be completely removed. So, in those patients, we always explain the situation. And the disease is not potentially as curable, but it’s absolutely always treatable. And since the development of our immunotherapy options, really, we’ve changed the trajectory and the course of those cancers. We won’t know the stage or the final response to therapy until we’ve start it. But in those patients, usually a form of long-term therapy. Chronic treatment is very important.  

And usually it involves a combination of chemotherapy and some targeted agents, biologic agents, meaning that they were designed in the lab to target the cancer specifically. And usually, they involve some sort of immunotherapy.  

Katherine:

Excuse me. Can you go into some detail about the targeted therapies and immunotherapies that you use?  

Dr. Janjigian:

Sure. So, conventional chemotherapy works on any rapidly dividing cell. And these are chemotherapies that have been tried and true in the clinic for decades, right? And they work still in gastric. And in  particular they’re very important. And then over the last 10 years or so, we’ve started developing target agents in the lab that target the specific biologic tumor biomarkers. And when you think about tumor biomarkers, I would think about them as almost ZIP codes, right? How do you direct the cancer cell to die? 

And how do you inhibit the cancer cell for the thing that is uniquely what’s making it grow as opposed to normal cells, right? So, that’s the difference between chemotherapy because chemotherapy can affect any rapidly dividing normal cell and cancer cell, while biologic agents ideally only affect the target, cancer, the cell. So, that’s why it’s very appealing to do both to help maximize response and survival on treatment. So, the biologic therapies that are available in and already approved in our disease for stomach cancer are something called HER2 directed treatments. And that’s been my focus in the lab. And then in my group has really spearheaded a lot of this research for HER2-positive tumors. In gastric cancer it occurs in up to 20 to 30 percent of tumors, but we have drugs such as trastuzumab or Herceptin, T-DXd, trastuzumab deruxtecan-nxki (Enhertu) or in HER2 that target these agents.  

And furthermore, our work here at Memorial Sloan Kettering demonstrated the combination therapies really for HER2-positive disease has helped improve outcomes in those patients. So, that’s biologic therapy. Other biologic therapies that’s approved in gastric cancer is something called VEGFR-2 inhibitor. These are drugs that target blood vessel formation around the tumor to help the chemotherapy drugs work well and better. Those drugs are called ramucirumab or Cyramza. And that’s used in a combination of chemotherapy in second-line treatment. And there’s other drugs such as regorafenib (Stivarga) and other inhibitors that maybe have some targetable activity in our disease. And last but not the least is immunotherapy. So, immunotherapy’s a completely different class of drugs.  

We think about immunotherapies, really the fundamental problem with cancer, right? The cancer issues that it started as a normal cell. So, at some point, it was a normal cell that then became and went awry and went rogue. And the body did not recognize that there was a problem. And the immune system did not eliminate that cancer cell. Before it started to metastasize and give us problems in their body, right? So, the fundamental question is why is the body’s immune system, why did it not recognize it as a abnormal cell? Well, because it really acts and looks like a normal cell from the immune perspective. Our immune system is trained not to hurt us, right? And that’s why in patients with rheumatoid arthritis or other autoimmune disorders, what happens is the immune system goes awry. So, what the immune checkpoint blockade or immunotherapy for cancer does, is it helps take some of those brakes off our immune system and help our immune system recognize the cancer and give it permission to say, “Hey, you know what?  

You thought it was a normal cell. It’s not. It’s a cancer cell. Please help us eliminate it.” And that’s worked well because I think in for some of our patients, the immune system actually knows how to target and suppress the cancer much better than any of the fancy drugs we can design in the lab. And that’s why in some patients, immune checkpoint blockade immunotherapy has been such a game changer if you do respond, your duration and durability of response is so much more better than anything that would go to just done on our own in the lab or with other chemotherapies. So, it really is a nice way to think about it. And the patients feel like they’re part of the solutions. It’s always nice for them to have that.  

But it’s been a real game changer for both HER2-positive and HER2-negative disease in combination with chemotherapy. I’ve had the pleasure of leading some of these studies. And it’s nice to be able to update the three or the four or the five-year survival rate from these studies in a disease where in the past most patients died within a year.   

Katherine:

Dr. Janjigian, I’d like to talk about what goes into deciding on a best treatment for a patient. Is there testing that helps you understand a patient’s individual disease? 

Dr. Janjigian:

One is an important factor about this disease, and when the patient comes in, the number one factor that helps us decide, what treatment to assign, is how well is the patient feeling? What are their nutritional deficits? How functional they are. Are they able to tolerate the treatment?

Because as an oncologist, the first rule is do no harm. Most patients come in when they’re first diagnosed are pretty well functional. They’re still able to eat. And so, they’re really up for the most aggressive. And that’s probably the number one wish I have from patients. I just want us to stay well and stay alive. So, we can be very aggressive with them, at least folks that come to see us in New York. And so, then the decision fork is really do you want only standard therapy, or are you interested in clinical trials? And I think what I am able to really explain to the patients, which is great, is that the benefit of trials – and, of course, you can never guarantee that a trial will be successful, right? Because that’s by definition – a clinical trial is experimental therapy. But for gastric cancer and stomach cancer where we need as many treatment options as possible, a clinical trial gives you an opportunity to try something different, and then go back to standard therapy, and then try experimental therapy, and then go back to standard therapy.  

So, it gives you as many options as possible. The way that I help our patients visualize this is you’re trying to cross a very wide and somewhat turbulent river. And you need as many stepping stones as possible. And a clinical trial, if it makes sense for you and if you’re able to do it physically, it gives you that other option. The most important other factor is to understand which subset of stomach cancer you have, right? Because biomarker testing has helped us tremendously to advance this disease. If you look at and if you watch any of my talks, I usually have this timeline of therapeutic development in stomach cancer until really this past year.  

We’re 2022, 2021. There was over a decade of negative trials, right? And the reason why I think is because the design of the trial really focused on targeting all the patients the same way. And now the trials are becoming more and more sophisticated. So, when we talk about the biomarker testing of the tumor, the patient’s specific tumor.  

It’s important for the patient to ask their physician. “What is the status of my tumor?” And the four critical biomarkers are microsatellite instability, HER2, PD-L1, and Claudin-18.2. So, those four biomarkers have really helped us transform this field especially in patients with metastatic disease. And in all of the tertiary cancer centers, certainly here at Memorial Sloan Kettering,  for each of the subsets we have a full research portfolio.  

So the patients have both standard and experimental options available to them.             

Katherine:

Well, how can test results like biomarker testing affect the patient’s prognosis and treatment options? 

Dr. Janjigian:

It will depend on the treatment and how it is paired to the biomarkers. So, for example, a certain subset of tumors such as microsatellite and stable tumors are patients with PD-L1 high tumors or even patients with HER2-positive tumors. Now in clinical trials, we see that those patients have an outstanding dramatic response to combination therapies often with chemotherapy or immunotherapy together or even HER2 directed therapy with immunity therapy. So, it really will impact how likely your tumor is to shrink. And if the tumor is shrinking, and if you’re feeling better, obviously that translates to better survival.  

Katherine:

Yeah. What questions should patients be asking about their test results? 

Dr. Janjigian:

I think it’s important for patients to be very clear with their providers about their willingness to undergo repeated biopsies if needed.  

I think the number one misunderstanding or misnomer that I see when patients come in to see me as a highly trained specialists, and they’re seeking me out for expertise and second and third and fourth opinions is that when the biomarker test is not done, often the answer in the community from the physician was, “Well, there was insufficient tissue or the tissue quality was not great, and that’s we’re going to do it. And it turns out the patient is perfectly willing and able to undergo a second biopsy. They really do not mind because a lot of times it’s just as simple as having a repeat endoscopy. Or even on treatment off and the problem is it’s a constantly evolving cancer. So, for example, if you receive first-line treatment and then you progressed and you need additional treatment, often it’s important to get a second biopsy to understand what your biomarkers are at that point. 

And I described this to my patients. We can’t get into a battle with outdated maps. We need to know. And sometimes when there’s a misunderstanding, the doctors think, “Maybe the patient wouldn’t be willing to do it. Or they are risk-averse.” And the patient’s more than willing to do it. So, I think communicating your wishes and your intent clearly with your doctors and not being shy to ask questions, and also not being shy to seek out clinical trials, right? So, yesterday I was in clinic. I see a lot of this disease. I often see 30 patients at clinic. I had an 80-year-old patient in my clinic, right? And before you meet the patient, most doctors would think, “Well, it’s an elderly patient. They wouldn’t even be interested in clinical trials. What are we trying to accomplish here?” 

Katherine:

Right.  

Dr. Janjigian:

But this patient clearly is – he exercises five days a week. He’s extremely active. He wants the best options for him.  

So, I am not an ageist, so I asked him. I said, “What are your sort of goals of this therapy? And how interested are you in clinical trials?” And him and the family were extremely enthusiastic. And, “We’re going to go for it, and we’re going to try.” So, I think having those conversations with your doctors – because you remember gastric cancer is very rare. In my clinic I see 30 patients, but in most normal sort of oncology practices, it’s lung, breast, and colon, the big three that sort of saturate the schedule of the oncologists. So, if they see one or two gastric cancers a month, they may not be thinking along the same lines of your disease. So, then you have to ask the questions of, “Are there any clinical trials? Should I see a specialist?” Did you do all of my biomarkers? 

Katherine:

Yeah, yeah. That’s really great information to have.  

Are there other decision factors involved in deciding on treatment options? You mentioned age, comorbidities. What else do you look at? 

Dr. Janjigian:

Yeah, the other important factor as I said is nutrition. Being able to stay fit and stay independent is very important. Some of my patients ask me, and then they feel like what they eat is so important that as soon as they get their diagnosis, they restrict their diet. And then they start losing weight. And that’s not good. The number one negative prognostic factor is if you lose more than 10 percent of your body weight within the first few months of the diagnosis – because you get really weak, and then you can’t tolerate the chemotherapy. So, I tell the patients, “Your body will take from you whatever it wants. The cancer will take from you, from your body. So, you need to support yourself nutritionally.” So, if you don’t feel like eating a salad, but you are craving a cookie, it’s okay.  

Have that cookie; just don’t lose weight. And I think that’s the number one. And also, the other factor is how do you communicate your diagnosis and your prognosis to your family and your friends? Because then everybody’s asking and making you in some ways anxious, your job. And what I tell patients is, “It’s on need-to-know basis.” If you find love and support, then you can tell people. Otherwise, you can just loosely kind of mention that you need some help, and you’re going through treatment without specific details. And the great part about these combination immunotherapies is that a lot of our functional patients actually continue to work through this. And so, we fill out whatever forms they need for their jobs and so forth. But we have lawyers that are continuing to work, teachers, and sometimes even construction workers. So, really, I would say make decisions as they come up.  

Don’t run too far ahead and sort of assume that you’re going to not be well. But if you want to take some time off, that’s okay too. And so, I think the treatment paradigm for this disease has evolved so much that there’s a lot of misconceptions. And I think the job of a good oncologist is to let the patient live their life in as normal a fashion as possible. So, we work the chemo schedules around their schedule. Some of these immunotherapies you can give once a month. So, I have patients who will fly into see me, for example, get the dose, and then go back home. So, I think don’t be afraid to ask for what you need.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, that leads us very smoothly into self-advocacy. And it’s really important that patients advocate for themselves. So, if a patient has a question or they’re unsure about a decision, why is it so important for them to speak up?  

Dr. Janjigian:

What I always tell my patients and I explain to them, that often the doctors know a lot of information. But there’s so much information that it’s almost impossible to – and we only have 15 to 20 minutes together. So, it’s almost impossible to communicate everything that we know to you. So, you need to drive a bit of what the focus is of priorities in each visit and get as much information as you can. But also in some ways, follow the doctor’s lead. So, it’s a balance of information exchange. Use the portal as much as possible as well. The patient portal is often for follow-up questions. Write questions down. We have our nurse practitioners, our nurses, our fellows that continue to educate the patients because as things come up, and the field is so complicated that there  are just so many things that you can ask at one single appointment.  

So, it’s okay to forget something, but just write it down. In the end like anything else, you only have one sort of chance to do this in a way that you want it to be done. And as treatment progresses and you’re not feeling well, and maybe you don’t want to keep coming in for appointments and would rather go spend time in Aruba or Florida or somewhere sunny as opposed to – that’s okay. I think a lot of times it’s your life. You only have one. And I strongly believe in anything to try to get as much out of every interaction as possible using all the resources that are available to you.  

Katherine:

Well, I’d like to close today with getting your thoughts on how you feel about the state of gastric cancer care. Are you hopeful about treatment options? 

Dr. Janjigian:

I’m extremely hopeful. And usually, I finish all of my scientific talks. I’m a physician scientist.  

I travel a lot to meetings. And my goal now in my career is to attract more and more young talent and scientists that will help us make the next wave of breakthroughs for this difficult disease. I think we’ve made a lot of progress, but the reality is: We’re still not curing enough patients. And so, our next wave is not just to stabilize and help people live longer but cure them definitively and permanently. And so, I finish every single presentation I have by how much the possibility and how fruitful this field has been. Personally, for my work and career of those that I’ve mentored throughout the years all over the world. So, I’m very hopeful for the next five, 10 years in this field. It will continue to get better.   

Katherine:

It sounds very promising. Dr. Janjigian, thank you so much for joining us today.  

Dr. Janjigian:

Thank you. Great question.  

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners.   

If you’d like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs. To learn more about gastric cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Kathrine Banwell. It’s good to have you with us today.  

PODCAST: What Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer Treatment is Right for You?

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What’s the best approach for YOUR lung cancer? Dr. Isabel Preeshagul discusses the importance of engaging in your lung cancer care decisions, shares advice for working with your team to determine a treatment approach, and reviews factors that affect therapy options. Dr. Preeshagul also provides an update on the latest research and clinical trials.

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul is a thoracic medical oncologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Preeshagul.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today, we’ll discuss the latest advances in non-small cell lung cancer care as part of our Insist series, which encourages patients to play an active role and insist on better care. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Isabel Preeshagul. Dr. Preeshagul, it’s so good to have you with us. Thank you. Would you introduce yourself? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yes. Thank you so much for having me and for the very kind introduction. My name’s Isabel Preeshagul. I am a Thoracic Medical Oncologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, and it is a huge honor to be here with you today. 

Katherine Banwell:

Well, we’re so glad to have you with us. I’d like to start with a question pertaining to our series title, Insist. Why is it essential for patients to collaborate with their providers on care treatment decisions? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, collaborating is so important, right? I always tell my patients this is not a dictatorship, right? This is a collaborative effort where I’m here to guide you, but you are the captain of the ship. 

You are the one that needs to make all of the decisions, and I’m here to make sure that the ship goes in a smooth direction, so making sure we have open lines of communication that the patients and their caregivers feel comfortable talking to me and my team and also vice versa and that we trust each other. It’s so important because we are going for a marathon, right? We’re not going for a sprint. This is a long-term relationship, whether we’re treating for cure or we’re treating you with palliative intent and it’s treatable but not curable. We’re going to be following with each other for a long time.  

Katherine Banwell:

A lung cancer healthcare team, of course, consists of a number of different providers. Would you tell us about the various members on a team? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Sure. So, there is – there are the people that do the scheduling, that make sure that the CAT scan is scheduled, that the MRI is done, your chemo gets scheduled, all of that. The schedulers are super important and an integral part of our team.  

And then we also have our office coordinators  that answers the phone calls and passes along the messages and assists with scheduling and sort of sets expectations and is the face of the practice. Then you have an office practice nurse or an oncology practice nurse who is the doctor’s right hand, making sure that the patients get proper chemotherapy teaches, making sure that they understand about possible side effects, risks versus benefits, making sure medications are up to date, assessing symptoms.  

They are sort of the front line when it comes to any patient call they’re triaging, and they’re escalating or deescalating. That would be the office practice nurse. And then you have an advanced care practitioner, an APP. You either have a nurse practitioner or a PA that’s working with you that’s sometimes seeing patients independently, sometimes putting chemotherapy orders, you know, really serving as almost as another doctor. 

If for some reason there is something that the doctor’s not available to do, the doctor needs in a pinch, or my patients that are almost at long-term follow-up that are doing great that are just kind of coasting, I will share with my NP and make sure that they know her just as well as they know me. And sometimes there’s a fellow or there’s a resident or there’s a med student that’s part of the team as well because see one, do one, teach one. It’s really important to teach those that are coming after you and serve as mentors and really include them in part of the team and part of the decision-making. And then you have the doctor that just kind of oversees everything.  

Katherine Banwell:

Of course. How would you define treatment goals for people with lung cancer? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, the goal of treatment, I think, is really contingent upon someone’s stage, but it’s also contingent upon what’s important to the patient, right? So, we have patients that are stage I all the way to stage IIIC that we treat with intention to cure.

And patients that have stage IV disease, it’s treatable but not curable. So, I am very transparent with that as long as I have the information to have that discussion. With that being said, there are some patients with stage IIIdisease or stage I disease that don’t really want treatment and want to focus on quality of life. And that’s okay too. And in which case, you know, at some point, their cancer will likely progress. How quickly or when that will happen, we don’t know. Could they pass from something else? It’s possible. But you really need to talk about what’s important to the patient, because it’s not always cut and dry.  

Katherine Banwell:

As you mentioned, Dr. Preeshagul, there are several different support members on a team. What would you say to patients or even care partners who can sometimes feel like they’re bothering their healthcare team with their questions and comments? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, we do get that concern a lot. And I always say, “I’m here for you 24/7. And, if it’s not me, it’s someone that’s just as qualified to answer your questions no matter what.” 

“And I would rather get a phone call at 3:00 a.m. than get a phone call at 9:00 a.m., and you need to go to the hospital right now or God forbid something happened. I get a phone call from someone in the ICU that you went overnight and terrible things happened. So, I want the phone calls to come through to keep you out of the hospital and keep you from going south. So, call me.” And I never try to – I don’t try to outline contingency plans or criteria of what would warrant a call, because then you end up getting in trouble.  

I always just tell my patient, “Think about how you’re feeling now in front of me. If you’re feeling any different than how you feel at this very moment, call me.”  

Katherine Banwell:

Good advice. I’d like to turn to the clinical side of non-small cell lung cancer. What tests help you identify the type and stage of lung cancer?  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Obviously, you need a CAT scan. You need a CAT scan of the chest, abdomen, pelvis, and you need an MRI brain and a PET scan.  

Those are really the gold standards for determining clinical staging. In regards to pathologic staging, it’s really important to have tissue samplings. So, you biopsy a site of disease that’s concerning to you. If it looks like there’s only disease in the chest, you want to biopsy the site where there’s the tumor, and then you talk with your thoracic surgery or pulmonary team to determine the best way to sample the mediastinum for full staging.  

Katherine Banwell:

Why is an accurate diagnosis so important?  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, an accurate diagnosis is so important because lung cancer is by no means black and white anymore. There are so many histologic subtypes that we are learning about. There are so many different molecular drivers that we are learning about. So, making sure you have the right diagnosis, full and next-generation sequencing testing, all of the imaging that you need could really make or break your treatment plan.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Preeshagul, let’s talk about biomarker testing. How is biomarker testing for lung cancer different from hereditary genetic testing?

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, we do do hereditary genetic testing for lung cancer patients as well. So, I think let’s backtrack a little bit. When you’re doing on a patient, there’s germline mutations and there’s somatic mutations. And germline mutations are mutations that you might get from Mom and Dad that they got from their parents and so on and so forth that you could give to your children or your brother and sister or whatever. So, that’s germline testing that could be passed along.  

That would be like BRCA or any other APC gene, but we are learning more and more that there are mutations in lung cancer that do have a hereditary aspect to them. So, we are learning now that while we do somatic testing, which is to find a mutation that just spontaneously happened in your tumor all on its own, it’s really important to pair that with germline testing to make sure that there isn’t some kind of heritable mutation that’s also driving this lung cancer.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned hereditary genetic testing. Should family members of people with lung cancer undergo genetic testing then just to be reassured? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, if there is a germline mutation, then they should – the family members should be referred to a geneticist to have that discussion.   

Katherine Banwell:

What are common lung cancer biomarkers? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, we have nine biomarkers within approval right now, but there are so many. There’s more than I could even talk about today. But some of the more common ones are EGFR, ALK, ROS1, MET exon 14. You have KRAS, KRAS-G12C, which is a newer one. We have NTRK. We have RET. The list goes on, HER2. I could talk for – there’s not enough time on this Zoom video to talk about all of the mutations. But there are nine mutations with approvals as of now to date, this very moment. That could change tomorrow.  

Katherine Banwell:

Of course, it could. How do biomarkers in lung cancer affect treatment options for lung cancer patients? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, it used to only be in stage IV, but now we are learning that biomarker testing is really important from the get-go because we have induction or neoadjuvant protocols that are looking at giving targeted therapy before patients go to surgery. 

We know that there’s FDA approval for patients to get targeted therapy after surgery, and there’s a survival advantage there. So, make sure that you have next-generation sequencing testing regardless of your stage.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. That’s good advice. So, we’ve heard how testing and a patient’s individual disease can lead to more targeted options. And you just mentioned targeted therapies. How do they work? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, there’s many different targeted therapies that we have. Some of given as an infusion. For HER2, for example, we have TDXD, and we have T-DM1. TDXD is the only drug that’s FDA-approved in this setting. There are clinical trials looking at T-DM1. For EGFR Exon 20, we have another infusional drug called amivantamab (Rybrevant). For EGFR Exon 19 and Exon 21, we have a pill called osimertinib (Tagrisso). For KRAS, there’s a pill. For most of the driver alterations, it’s a pill, but some of them it does require infusional therapy. 

But these are therapies that are targeted at the cells that harbor that mutation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s turn to immunotherapy. What is it, and how does it work? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, immunotherapy is basically teaching your body to recognize cancer as foreign. So, when you have – I always kind of use this hand model. So, basically, a normal cell has, let’s say, three prongs. And then sometimes what happens is cancer will grow a marker called PD-L1 that makes it hide from the immune system. So, the body thinks that this is a normal cell. So, what immunotherapy does is it comes up and it sort of puts a cap on that PD-L1 so that the cell looks foreign again and the body can attack that cell and get rid of it. So, it’s almost like ramping up your immune system to recognize that marker and get rid of that cell. 

Katherine Banwell:

What is the regimen for immunotherapy, and how often is treatment administered? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, immunotherapy is approved in the neoadjuvant setting, which means before chemotherapy. It’s approved after chemotherapy, and it’s approved in the stage IV setting. There are many different regimens and many different dosings and many different drugs. But it’s typically given in your veins, either once every three weeks or once every four weeks for a certain amount of time. If it’s given in a curative setting and it’s given indefinitely or until there’s disease progression or intolerance in the stage IV setting.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Let’s touch upon the side effects of these types of treatment. You’ve mentioned that there are so many, but what are some of the major side effects, and how are they managed? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Side effects of immunotherapy can include pneumonitis, which is inflammation of the lungs, any kind of endocrinopathy like issues with your thyroid, issues with your pancreas like diabetes.  

It can cause colitis, which is diarrhea, inflammation of the colon, hepatitis, inflammation of the liver. It can cause cerebritis, inflammation of the brain. It can cause arthritis or arthralgias, inflammation of the bones. And it can also cause rash and fatigue. 

Typically, if it’s the thyroid, it’s managed with thyroid replacement hormone or a drug that would calm down the thyroid if it’s overactive. Pneumonitis is steroids. Hepatitis is sometimes treated with steroids. Colitis, steroids typically. Steroids usually come somewhere in there, usually not with the endocrinopathies, but the other itis’s, it’s typically – we start with steroids and go up from there. And the goal is to really recognize these toxicities before they become a problem and just at the glimmer of them just starting.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, would you consider these treatments to be personalized medicine then? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, it’s personalized in the sense that if someone has a high PD-L1 expression, there may be some data to demonstrate that they may benefit from immunotherapy or have a response. If someone can’t tolerate chemotherapy or is not interested in chemotherapy or has other reasons that may preclude them from getting it, it might be reasonable. So, in that sense, it is considered personalized.  

Katherine Banwell:

How would you define personalized medicine? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

To me, personalized medicine takes into account the biologic makeup of a patient’s disease like if they have a mutation and what their PD-L1 status is, what the histologic makeup of it. What’s their stage? And then, on the other hand, what’s important to that patient? If they’re a tailor, you want to make sure you’re not giving them a medication that’s going to cause neuropathy, so they can’t use their hands.  

If they enjoy playing the harp or the piano, same thing. If their goal is to continue to run marathons, you may want to avoid something that’s going to cause inflammation of the lungs and risk them for pneumonitis. Tailoring to make sure that the treatment is part of their life but does not become their life. 

Katherine Banwell:

If the test results don’t reveal one of the biomarkers you’ve been talking about, what other treatments are available?  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, if I don’t have an FDA approval, then sometimes we look to see if there is a clinical trial in our early phase drug development program, and we talk about a clinical trial. If there’s no clinical trial and I don’t have an FDA approval, then we have to talk about what options are considered standard of care and how to make that work into the patient’s lifestyle.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about surgery? When is it used?  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Surgery is typically used in the curative setting with early-stage disease. We’re really trying to give patients some kind of chemotherapy or some kind of treatment before they go to surgery. It’s shown to improve outcomes. It just gives us a en vivo view of how the tumor will respond to the treatment. So, we typically use surgery in the curative setting. And, at times, it’s appropriate to use surgery for a metastasectomy when you have one little site that’s growing. Sometimes after a tumor board discussion, it might be reasonable to resect that area.  

Katherine Banwell:

Is radiation still used? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Same thing. It can be used in the curative setting, typically for patients with stage IIIB or stage IIIC disease and combined with chemotherapy patients that are not considered surgical candidates, or it’s used in the palliative setting when patients have painful metastases. 

Katherine Banwell:

Would you define the B and C? You’ve mentioned that a couple of times.  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yeah. 

Katherine Banwell:

We’re used to hearing Stage 1, 2, 3, 4. But what’s a stage IIIB and a stage IIIC? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yeah. Sure. Sure. So, it does get a little bit into the weeds here about the size of the tumor and the amount of lymph nodes and location of the lymph nodes. But basically, stage IIIA is considered resectable. That means – that could be the size of the tumor with no lymph nodes, or it could be a smaller tumor with a lymph node on the same side as the disease. Stage IIIB would be a lymph node right underneath the windpipe at the station 7. And stage IIIB also includes lymph nodes that have crossed over to the contralateral side. And stage IIIC would be lymph nodes that are maybe up at the contralateral supraclavicular space. 

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Do treatment options change if the lung cancer returns? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yes, they do change depending on if this is the same tumor type that’s come back. It’s typically a different treatment algorithm, yeah.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. And should biomarker testing be done again if a relapse occurs? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

100 percent. Because it guides everything about a patient’s treatment. It’s super important.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. What are you excited about right now in lung cancer research? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

I am excited and overwhelmed by the fact that we have so many approvals and so much exciting data that was just presented at ASCO and World Lung and ESMO that it’s next to impossible to keep up. And I’m happy that we have that problem, and I’m happy that the patients have – there’s a spotlight on lung cancer when we were in the shadows. And now, I think we have the spotlight. 

And all of these approvals, you know, with it being Lung Cancer Awareness Month as well, I think is just so important. Just to make sure that we get the knowledge of these new approvals out there though, that is another struggle. 

Katherine Banwell:

Well, are there any current clinical trials that look promising to you? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yeah, I think there are many clinical trials. In the induction setting, there was some data that was just presented on ALINA looking at adjuvant alectinib (Alecensa). We just had a – we have approval for adjuvant osimertinib (Tagrisso) and the ADAURA trial.  

But we are learning more and more that as these targeted therapies have approval in stage IV, we’re trialing them in stage III, and then we’re going to trial them in earlier stages and earlier settings. So, this has been the pattern of how drugs get approved. So, yes, there’s lots of exciting data coming through. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s excellent. Can you talk about antibody drug conjugates and where they fit into lung cancer care? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Yeah. That’s a great question. I don’t think anyone knows the answer as to where they fit in just yet. 

We have probably over 300 antibody drug conjugates that are in development right now. And one of the more common ones that we use is trastuzumab deruxtecan (Enhertu), or TDXD, which is used in patients that harbor HER2 alterations in the stage IV lung cancer setting. It is basically almost like a Trojan horse. So, you have this antibody.  

It’s typically IgG1, immunoglobulin. And then you have a linker, and then at the end of that linker is the warhead or the chemotherapy agent. So, the antibody comes in towards the cancer cell looking very innocent. It binds to the cancer cell. And, once it binds, then everyone inside the Trojan horse or this warhead rush into the cell and get to do its damage. So, it’s a totally different mechanism. We’re trying to outsmart some of the bypass mechanisms that cancer cells develop. And this may be the new wave, but stay tuned, more to come.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. So, it’s promising.  How can patients find out more about current clinical trials? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, you can always ask your healthcare practitioner if there are any clinical trials at the institution that you’re at, but clinicaltrials.gov has all the clinical trials that are available nationally and internationally.  

You just type in your disease type. You can type in a couple keywords, EGFR maybe or ROS1 or stage IV, something along those lines, and then it should populate a list of clinical trials and what institutions have them open, if they’re still accruing or if they’re not, and a contact on that trial.  

Katherine Banwell:

If a patient is interested in a clinical trial, what kinds of questions should they be asking their healthcare about the trial? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

So, the first question to ask is, “Do we have any clinical trials that are appropriate for me?” If the answer is yes, “Are they appropriate for me now, or are they appropriate for me if what I’m on right now is not working?” 

So, trying to figure out where that will be, and if they are appropriate for you now, how can I get evaluated, and how can we get things underway? 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. What would you say to patients who are interested in participating in a clinical trial, but they’re nervous about it?

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

I think one thing that I love about being on a clinical trial is that there are more eyes are on you, because we are looking to get something approved, and we are just watching every single little granular detail. In a way, it’s almost like you’re being more micromanaged than if you were on standard of care because of just how many stops and checks there are, how many eyes are looking at your labs after the doctor and the nurse and the nurse practitioner, and the fellow take a look at everything. It’s 10 other people. So, it’s almost like it’s extra safe because of all of that. It’s exciting because you are hopefully getting tomorrow’s treatment today, right? 

You’re trailblazing the way for other people after you. So, I think it’s exciting, but, of course, it’s nerve-wracking. It’s something new. You don’t know if it’s going to work. But I have to believe that the way that clinical trials are designed now and the clinical trials that we choose to open here, we really hope are going to be pushing the space forward. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’d like to get to a few questions that we received from audience members prior to the program. How do you help a family member that is an overwhelmed caregiver but refuses help? Any tips on how to provide support to this person?  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

I mean, I think we see caregiver burnout thousands of times a day, unfortunately, and the first thing is knowing how to recognize it. And the second most important thing is taking the time away from the visit with the patient to address the burnt-out caregiver, because there is not enough time in any visit to ever – there’s never enough time in my mind to spend with a patient.  

I’m always pulled in a thousand different directions. And I think we all feel that. But taking the appropriate time to sit down and to say, “Hey. Listen. I recognize that you’re burnt out. I can see it. Who is in your corner helping you?” And just directing focus away from the patient just for a moment and to really focus on that caregiver and to rely on the social work team and the case manager and the support groups that your institution may have and to make sure that they know about those resources. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Here’s another question we received. “Can you share more information regarding treatments available for stage IV lung cancer and their side effects?” 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

It depends on if this is non-small cell or small cell. It depends on if you have a driver alteration or not. So, I think that is a little bit challenging to talk about in just one session. But basically, you’re probably looking at some kind of targeted therapy if you have a mutation versus standard of care if you don’t have a targeted mutation versus a clinical trial. And I think those are kind of like the big baskets.  

Katherine Banwell:

When is a second opinion necessary? Dr. Isabel Preeshagul: A second opinion is necessary anytime you want a second opinion.  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

There is no right or wrong time, any time. You’re just not jiving with your oncologist after the first day you met them, second opinion. You’re at the end of the line and you really want toknow more, second opinion. You’ve met two other doctors. You’re not jiving, third opinion. It’s always appropriate anytime you want. 

Katherine Banwell:

So, the patient shouldn’t feel obligated to stay with that one provider? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Never. Never, never, never, never, never. No. Please don’t feel that way. There are no hard feelings. And, if there are, that’s not the right oncologist for you. It needs to feel like a perfect friendship. And, if it’s not that, it’s not the right thing.    

Katherine Banwell:

Before we close, Dr. Preeshagul, I’d like to get your final thoughts. What would you say to the audience about the future of lung cancer care and treatment? 

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

I do think that the future is bright because, as I mentioned, there is now this light that is shining in the lung cancer space. And things are getting approved. and discoveries are getting made faster than we can even keep up, which is exciting and overwhelming and daunting. But I am happy that, finally, this space is taking off, so I feel optimistic.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. All right. Well, I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to join us today, Dr. Preeshagul.  

Dr. Isabel Preeshagul:

Thank you so much for having me. These were wonderful questions, and I look forward to many more discussions with you. Thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about lung cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us today.   

PODCAST: Thrive | Advice for Managing Potential CAR T-Cell Therapy Side Effects

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Dr. Adriana Rossi, a myeloma expert and researcher, discusses how CAR T-cell therapy has revolutionized care, the process for undergoing this therapy, common side effects of this treatment, and advice for patients considering this option. Dr. Rossi also shares updates in CAR T-cell therapy research and explains what she’s excited about in myeloma care.

Dr. Adriana Rossi is Co-director of the CAR T and stem cell transplant program at the Center for Excellence for Multiple Myeloma at Mount Sinai Health System in New York City. Learn more about Dr. Rossi.

Download Resource Guide

See More From Thrive CAR T-Cell Therapy

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello, and welcome. I am your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is part of our Thrive series, where we will discuss what to expect and how to manage side effects of CAR T-cell therapy.  

Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining us is Dr. Adriana Rossi. Dr. Rossi, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Thank you so much. I am one of the codirectors of the CAR T program at Mount Sinai in New York City and thrilled to be with you today.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you. Since we’ll be discussing the ins and outs of CAR T-cell therapy, I thought we could start with your perspective as a researcher in the field. How has this therapy revolutionized myeloma care?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It absolutely has. And I would say in time we’ve had – this is now our fourth revolution. Stem cell transplants was the first time we actually achieved what we call a complete remission in at least a few patients, making myeloma disappear.  

Then, we had the second revolution with the novel agents. Now, we had drug therapies that were giving us these complete remission still at about a 30 percent rate. And then, the monoclonal antibodies were the most recent revolution. And currently, we are in what we call the T-cell redirection.   

It really has been driven by CAR T-cell therapies and something we call bispecific antibodies, which also use your patient’s T cells to kill the myeloma. We are now seeing absolutely unprecedented response rates, meaning almost everybody is responding. Also, depth of response, which we have really learned over time is a way to translate into long remissions. So, every long, very significant remissions. And the early data in patients who have had many prior lines.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, it is very encouraging news.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It is very encouraging.  

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s start with an overview of CAR T-cell therapy. Could you explain how the treatment works?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. So, CAR T specifically is speaking to T cells, which are a normal part of the immune system that have been engineered and modified. So, normal part of the immune system T cells have a lot of checks and balances and are constantly looking for cells that are supposed to be killed. For example, something that has a virus in it.  

When we engineer the CAR T-cells, we modify, one, the target so they are now trained to find the specific target on a tumor cell. And we remove all these checks and balances. So, once that T-cell finds its target, it can kill it without all of the side effects. The way normal T  cells communicate with other members of the immune system are something called cytokines. So, we will touch on that a little later, I think, but we also, again, interfere with that communication by engineering the cells.  

Katherine Banwell:

Which patient type qualifies for CAR T?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

In 2023, we currently have two approved commercial CAR T products and we do have a number of them in clinical trials. The two that are commercially approved specifically are targeted for patients who are in their fourth line of therapy, so the myeloma has learned to come back that four times.  

They’ve been exposed to all of the regular drugs, which by four lines most patients will have been at least once. We look for patients whose kidney function is at a safe level to tolerate the therapy. And other than that, it’s really having caregiver support and overall ability to come to a center that specializes in this.  

Katherine Banwell:

What’s the process for accessing the CAR T?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

The first important part is remembering they exist and having the referring physician remember to send patients our way. Once patients come to our center, they will meet with coordinators, both the clinic coordinators to make sure we have all of the testing, to make sure the heart is healthy enough, the lungs are healthy enough. There’s no infections brewing.  

Financial coordinators to take care of all of the organizing. If patients are coming from further than 30 minutes, setting them up for a place to stay in the city, transportation aid, all of those things. Once we decide to go ahead and have our collection date set, that sort of starts the actual process. Since most of our patients have had stem cell transplants before, there is that point of comparison. I think one of the most important things to remember is CAR T is not stem cells.  

So, while they’re both the cellular therapies, the patient experience is vastly, vastly different. It starts with a collection, where in stem cells you need several days of injections and maybe several days of collection. T-cell collection is a one-day event. We get what we get and then we are going to manufacture them and we can grow them in a Petri dish. There is no minimum and there is no instigating injections to get them going.  

Once they’re collected, the cells are then sent for manufacturing, which may take from four to eight weeks. During that time, patients usually receive what we call a bridging therapy, which is some kind of therapy to keep the myeloma at bay. Not to get rid of it but to keep it under control so that once the cells are ready the patient is also ready. Going into CAR T with growing myeloma can increase the side effects.  

Katherine Banwell:

Go ahead.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I will give you just the final bit. Once the cells are ready, then we plan to give chemotherapy to get the patient’s T cells to not put up a fight. That’s called lymphodepletion. We infuse the cells and they’re now with us for two weeks in the hospital and usually two weeks after.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. So, I was going to ask how long patients are in the hospital for the procedure. So, that explains that. So, it is about two weeks. What signifies that a patient is ready to be released and go home?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

The reason patients are in the hospital is a very classic expected toxicity experience. So, they’re in the hospital for us to observe, watch. If it happens, which about 80 percent of the time there will be some toxicity for us to address – one that toxicity has resolved, they’re then okay to go home.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. That is great advice. Thank you. Of course, we know that CAR T-cell therapy comes with some potential side effects. Let’s talk about some of those side effects and how they’re managed. You mentioned cytokine release syndrome earlier. Let’s start with that. What is it, exactly?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes. As I mentioned, cytokines are molecules that the cells of the immune system use to communicate with each other. With this therapy, we are asking the T cells that have been infused to expand, meaning make multiple copies of themselves, and sweep through the body looking for myeloma and basically picking a fight with them.  

So, CRS is what happens when the T cells are too good at their job and they overachieve and then picking a little fight kind of make a big ruckus. The result is what we call inflammation, which the patient will experience usually as a fever.  

But if it does not go – if it continues to go unchecked, that fever can be accompanied by low blood pressure because of these inflammatory markers, difficulty breathing or low oxygen levels. And all of these things are now vastly prevented. CRS is usually treated very quickly and doesn’t get to these higher grades, more complicated fields.  

Katherine Banwell:

How is CRS managed?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

We have a couple of very good antidotes. CRS by itself is not just a fever. Certainly, a fever in any patient who is undergoing these kinds of therapies, we will try to rule out any infections. But there are markers in the blood that we can follow. When the blood markers and the fever occur at the same time, we know that cytokines are driving that effect. If it seems to be driven by something we call IL-6, we use tocilizumab (Actemra). If it seems to be driven by IL-1, we use anakinra (Kineret). These are all drugs that are themselves monoclonal antibodies which then will shut down that overreaction and cool things down.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Another possible side effect is neurotoxicity. Would you define that term for us?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes. That one is harder to define because neurotoxicity in itself is very broad. We usually think of something called ICANS, which is the neurotoxicity associated with the effector cells. That specific neurotoxicity tends to happen in conjunction with CRS.  

And while CRS probably occurs in about 85 percent of patients, the ICANS is usually in the order of 5 percent. So, much, much more rare. And the antidote for that, which most patients know, love, and hate, is steroids.  

Katherine Banwell:

Ah, yes.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I should mention there are other parts of neurotoxicity which I think the most concerning is something that has been known as Parkinsonian symptoms. It’s really just movement disorder. These are exceedingly rare and so we haven’t had a chance to learn very much because there are so few patients who have had this complication. We have learned from the first six patients who had this how to avoid it. And so, I think it’s now even more rare and it really goes into patient selection, to making sure, as I mentioned, that the myeloma isn’t growing very much.  

We monitor to see if the T cells grow too fast, if the CRS is of a high level. These are all predictors of delayed neurotoxicity.  

Katherine Banwell:

What are the signs of neurotoxicity in a patient?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Very specifically, for the ICANS, we have tool called the ICE tool, which is a series of questions to test memory and attention and ability to write and understand and speak. So, most commonly, it would be an inability to speak properly or, if someone is writing a sentence, it’s really a very classic finding. It is no longer spread across the page.  

These are not subtle findings. Part of, again, being in the hospital is to allow us to have this tool twice a day and look for these signs very early on, interfere with their development by giving the patients steroids – usually for a day or two – and resolving it.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, that’s how neurotoxicity is managed, then.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Yes.  

Katherine Banwell:

And is there a potential for long-term issues associated with neurotoxicity?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Certainly, there is always the potential. But the vast majority – again, the ICANS tend to be self-limited while the patient’s in the hospital, and that is why we’re watching during that window. The delayed neurotoxicities, in addition to these very rare movement disorders, we do see some cranial nerve palsies. The seventh cranial nerve, usually recognized as Bell’s palsy, has happened a few times. We really don’t understand the mechanism of what is driving it. It’s inflammation but why there, why that way. So, we tend to use acyclovir, which is the classic treatment for Bell’s palsy and steroids.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, a suppressed immune system is something that a patient undergoing CAR T-cell therapy should consider. What does it mean and what precautions should patients take?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

That is such a good question and it is specifically true for patients who are receiving therapies that target BCMA, which both commercial CAR Ts at the moment target.  

Because it is such an effective therapy at bringing down cells that express BCMA, your immune cells that make antibodies, one of the side effects is the immunoglobulins, which are the antibodies, are all very, very low. So, that is one level of immunosuppression.  

The other is the chemotherapy that we use to quiet the T cells can also lower all the blood counts. So, red blood cells and platelets may be low as well and those are not involved with immunity and can be transfused. So, that is a supportive mechanism. For the immune therapies, we usually use IVIG, which is intravenous immunoglobulins to support the patient until they’re able to make their own.  

We also protect them from viral infections with acyclovir or valacyclovir. Protect them from something called PJP pneumonia, which is a virus that specifically appears when you’re very immunosuppressed. Should their neutrophil count be low, that is another type of white blood cell – make sure they’re protected with antibiotics.  

Katherine Banwell:

Is there a typical timeframe for the immune system function to return?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I would say a year is a good time but it’s a very unpredictable wave. So again, unlike stem cell transplant where you have a clear time where the cells are low, they recover, they stay recovered, we have noticed for some patients, they may have low blood counts just during the first month and then be recovered. Some will have no problems in the first month and it’s in the weeks to follow that suddenly either the reds, or the platelets, or the white count may need support.  

And in very rare instances, out to a year, they’re still needing support, sometimes say a growth factor injection once a week.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, how is it monitored over time?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

We monitor all those different levels of the immune system. So, we check on the CBC, which is the very common blood counts. We also look at what is called a lymph panel to look at the different types of T cells and make sure that they are recovering. Those usually take about three to six months to recover. The white count, again usually by Day 30, but there are some cases of delayed recovery. And the immunoglobulins, which is the antibody level, we also monitor monthly.  

Katherine Banwell:

What other side effects should patients who are considering CAR T-cell therapy be aware of?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Really, those are the big three. I would say others are very rare but the low blood counts is the one that lasts beyond the time in the hospital. And the rare neurotoxicities that are delayed.  

Katherine Banwell:

When should patients mention any issues they’re experiencing to their healthcare team?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Always. That is a very, very, short answer. Please don’t ever think you are bothering the doctor. I hear that a lot. “Oh, I didn’t want to bother you.” It is never a bother. This is why we are here. So, anything that is happening that is out of the ordinary, please let your healthcare provider know. If it is not something that needs our attention or we don’t need to worry about, we will tell you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Better safe than sorry.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Always.  

Katherine Banwell:

And how does a care partner factor into the process? It seems having a good support system is essential.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

It absolutely is. I think the entire journey of myeloma really is what I would consider a team sport. It is not something we go through alone. And the more members of the team you have the better. So, as your medical team, we always value the caregivers. For CAR T specifically, since there is this concern for infections and neurotoxicity, caregivers are really essential. They should be well informed, know what to look for, and be the ones to reach out to us if anything is concerning. Again, any symptoms out of the ordinary, any fever, and really be a part of communicating with the medical team.  

Katherine Banwell:

Is there a period where patients are considered out of the woods from CAR T side effects?   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Hard to say. Again, I like to emphasize that most patients by Day 30 or 60 are back to work, are feeling themselves, are recovered. Another contrast to stem cell transplants. It’s a much faster recovery. I have patients who within 30 days are eager to go back to work and don’t know what I was talking about or why I insist on seeing them so much.  

But some patients, again, out to a year, may still be requiring visits for support in either the IVIG for the immunoglobins, growth factor support for their counts. So, there are outliers at both extremes. We follow the model of 100 days for recovery.  

Katherine Banwell:

Do some patient types do better than others?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Well, always yes. And we are still endeavoring to figure out who they are and why that is. There are things that we don’t know, can’t predict. But things that we do recognize are again bringing patients whose myeloma is under good control.  

So, instead of having a lot of disease or disease that is in a growth phase, we try to use the bridging therapy to optimize the patient, not only to improve the response, but also minimize the toxicities. 

Katherine Banwell:

Does age have an impact at all?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Not as much. We actually have just finished an 88-year-old patient whose hospital course was remarkably unremarkable, as we would like. I think another difference from stem cells, it is not as rigorous. While each patient, I think, should be part of that decision and that conversation, reviewing what is now a growing number of options and see if it’s right for them as an individual. So, age is a consideration, but frailty will always be the more important.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, we discussed the process of accessing CAR T-cell therapy, which can be a big undertaking. How do you counsel patients who are considering this treatment option? 

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Mostly, I want to make sure that they are well-educated and understand as much as we do and as much as we can convey. I am fortunate to be part of a big multidisciplinary team so there is social workers, clinical coordinators, other specialists, dentists, cardiologists, to give all of the perspectives. I like to make sure that they know what it is and also that they know what it isn’t. So, it is not a stem cell transplant and it is not another line of therapy that you just sign up for and go into blindly.  

So, making sure they’ve had all of their questions answered, and it’s not something they read on the Internet. They have spoken with one of the CAR T physicians, understand all of the steps of the process, and have questions to their very individual needs addressed.   

Katherine Banwell:

If a patient is interested in possibly doing CAR T-cell therapy, what questions should they ask their healthcare team?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I think again making it personal to them. Does the team think they are a good candidate? Is this the right time? Because they may be a good candidate but not even need it at the moment. Or, again, there are things that we could do between now and the cells to optimize the success both in efficacy and toxicity.  

Understanding what side effects are expected for that individual because, again, we can usually judge these will be more likely or less likely. And then, do I have a plan in place to find the right center and continue the care and the monitoring near home after that?   

Katherine Banwell:

What are the alternatives if a patient decides CAR T is not right for them?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

I would say as part of this newest revolution and fairly comparable in novelty and method of action would be the bispecific antibodies. So, these are molecules.  

They are not cells. And they activate the patient’s own T cells and bring the T cells to the myeloma, causing very similar side effect profile and very similar effectiveness. The rates are a little bit lower but they are administered as mostly a subcutaneous injection that has to be dosed weekly or every other week. The contrast is it’s a continuous therapy, but it does allow us to adjust as we go, which the cellular therapy doesn’t.  

Katherine Banwell:

While there are approved CAR T-cell therapies for myeloma currently, there are also many others that are in clinical trials. Would you talk about some of the ongoing research in this area?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. Again, while we celebrate the tremendous changes that these two CAR Ts have made to the field, they are both autologous, meaning we use the patient’s own T cells for manufacturing. They both target BCMA. And they are both what we call second generation T cells. So, other areas are to change the target. So, instead of just targeting BCMA, there are studies specifically targeting GPRC5D, which are coming down fairly soon. Rather than using the patient’s own T cells there are a number of products that use a healthy donor’s T cells, which are available immediately.  

So, we don’t need to go through the bridging therapy, and we don’t have to wait for the cells to be ready. And lastly, there are different manufacturing processes. As I mentioned, the ones we currently have may take up to eight weeks for manufacturing. There are some studies now where cells are basically manufactured, engineered, in 48 hours –  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

– and are ready to be infused so that they actually grow in the patient rather than in a Petri dish. So, lots of areas of exploration and I look forward to, in five years, being able to look back and see again how the field has changed.  

Katherine Banwell:

And I’m sure it will, by the sounds of it. Are there any trials introducing CAR T-cell therapy as an earlier line of myeloma treatment?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

There are. So, both the products that are now commercially available for the fourth line are being studied in earlier and earlier lines. We actually just this year got results of the CARTITUDE-4 study, which was in one to three prior lines, and expect that that will lead to an earlier approval in the very near future.  

And we have a number of studies, again, with both products looking at patients who have either high risk disease or don’t respond as well as we would like to their frontline therapy, and actually being used as part of that first line.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rossi, what advice do you have for patients who may be hesitant to participate in a clinical trial?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Education. More than anything, understand what they are. Clinical trials come in all shapes and sizes. We have these exciting molecules that have to go into a first human at some point but we also have tried and true therapies that we know – for example, the CAR T – that is approved in these later lines. That same product is being now offered earlier. So, that has to be within a clinical trial because it’s not the approved indication.  

But it is a product that we know to be safe. We know that it works in advanced disease and are actually expecting that it will work even better in earlier lines. So, clinical trials is a very broad term. Understanding what the patient may be eligible for – meaning, what the study’s looking for – and then comparing that to what the patient is looking for. So, sometimes it’s even modes of therapy. So, if you’re specifically looking for an oral agent, there may be studies that don’t require injections or that many visits. So, really looking widely, speaking to your healthcare physician, and understanding what the options are.   

Katherine Banwell:

And if a patient is interested in possibly participating in a clinical trial, what sorts of questions should they ask?   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Very, very good question. First, understanding what clinical trial. Each center will have their own combination. Some studies are available in multiple locations. Some studies are very institution specific. So, meeting with the research team and understanding what are the required testings, what is the required treatments, and what is the required follow-up, I think, is the first part.  

Clinical trials, in order for them to give us the power to generalize and learn lessons are very strict in trying to keep to the schedule just as specified and everything is much more contained. So, making sure that they again understand what they’re signing up for and what they’ll get out of it.  

Katherine Banwell:

What other myeloma research are you excited about?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Well, my focus is in CAR T and so I think, with bias, that is the most exciting part. But I did mention bispecifics. One of the things we need to concede is CAR T really requires you be at a cellular therapy center.  

Whereas, with the bispecifics, while for now experience is still building, the idea is that this is something that could be administered in any practice across the nation. So, being able to reach more patients and those also with different targets, different schedules, different combinations, was another very interesting field as well.   

Katherine Banwell:

As we close out this conversation, Dr. Rossi, I would like to get your take on the future of myeloma. What makes you hopeful?  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Just looking back, I think. Again, in the 20 years that I’ve been fortunate enough to participate and see the changes, we have gone through, as I mentioned, three of the four revolutions in the field. And the speed with which each step forward then begets three or four more. As I mentioned, in five years I think we’ll look back and say, “Oh, how quaint, what we were doing in 2023.” So, the speed and the number of wins we’re getting and how quickly that’s translating into direct patient experience is really incredible.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. It seems like there’s a lot of progress and hope in the field.  

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

There absolutely is.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, Dr. Rossi, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.   

Dr. Adriana Rossi:

Absolutely. It’s been my pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us today.   

PODCAST: CLL Patient Expert Q&A: Dr. Danielle Brander

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Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:

Welcome to this START HERE, Patient Empowerment Network program. This program bridges the CLL expert and patient voices, enabling patients and care partners to feel comfortable asking questions of their healthcare team. Joining me is Dr. Danielle Brander, a CLL specialist serving as assistant professor in the Division of Hematologic Malignancies and Cellular Therapy at Duke University Medical Center. Dr. Brander directs the chronic lymphocytic leukemia or CLL and lymphoma program and serves as primary investigator for CLL focus clinical trials. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Brander.

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Thanks for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Hatfield:

The world can be complicated, but understanding your chronic lymphocytic leukemia diagnosis and treatment options doesn’t have to be. The goal of START HERE is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of CLL treatment and survivorship. Before we get started, please remember to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There is great information there that will be useful during this program and after. So let’s get started. Dr. Brander, I’d like to talk about what’s on the CLL treatment radar. There’s a lot going on in terms of emerging treatment options, clinical trial data, and other learnings from the CLL community. Before we jump into a detailed discussion, can you provide an explanation of what CLL is?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Absolutely. So CLL, or chronic lymphocytic leukemia, we generally think of as blood cancer. But often as you hear the ending of that, the name leukemia, we also think of it as a lymphoma, meaning patients can have the spectrum of an elevated white count like you might think of in terms of a leukemia. They can also, like a lymphoma though, have enlarged lymph nodes or spleen. And often patients are diagnosed incidentally and that just means that they’re…in seeing their physician or their medical team for other reasons. And they might have had a blood test, and their white counts elevated.

Or they might notice they have a tiny enlarged lymph node or found on screening for other cancers, for example. And so the takeaway there is that many patients don’t necessarily have symptoms and certainly often many patients don’t have reasons to need to start treatment at the time they’re diagnosed. So in terms of what it is today, I think more and more patients are being diagnosed both because it is something that comes about as patients get older, but also because it’s found during routine other visits. And so more and more patients I think are found incidentally that way.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So just a follow-up question to that, if a patient goes into their primary care provider and finds something unusual that might indicate CLL, will they be referred to a hematologist right away at that point? Usually?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

So that is a great question. Often they are, for example, if they’re noted to have a high white count or, specifically a type of white cell called lymphocytes. However, there are many things that can cause that or cause a small lymph node. And so, some primary care appropriately, if those changes are small and they could be due to other things like an infection, for example, then their primary care might want to follow up first. And if things go away, it may not be related to a cancer at all.

But if it’s something that persists or it seems very out of range, or primary care, who, you know, are specialists and seeing kind of changes all the time, and may say this seems a little bit out of range, then even before something’s diagnosed, patients might be referred to a hematologist or an oncologist to help with that workup. But often because primary care is so astute in seeing these things, they may counsel patients to say, let’s send this test or this test to get things going while we’re speaking to a hematologist or oncologist.

Lisa Hatfield:

We have CLL patients and care partners who are newly diagnosed in active treatment, watch and wait, and also living well with their disease. Joining this program no matter where you are in your CLL journey, START HERE provides easy-to-understand, reliable, and digestible information to help you make informed decisions. So, Dr. Brander, we’re going to get into a more detailed discussion now of CLL. Can you talk a little bit about the novel pathways and targets that are currently under investigation in CLL, and what are the most important highlights from those for patients and their families and care partners?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Yes. So over the last decade or even the last five years, for patients diagnosed with CLL, there’s been a very encouraging and marked change in the available treatments that is, you know, not that many years ago we generally only had chemotherapy or chemotherapy combined with these antibody targeted treatments that we call immunotherapy sometimes.

But in the last 5 to 10 years we’ve seen quite a remarkable change in treatments that target, meaning often they go after pathways or ways that the CLL cells have learned to grow or have learned to not die the way that normal cells should, die after certain time points. The two main categories of treatments that are approved for CLL treatment, either for patients as a first treatment or patients that have had treatment before including prior chemo or other agents are called BTK inhibitors or BCL-2 inhibitors.

BTK is something inside the leukemia cells. It’s also in some of our other cells. But in the CLL cells particularly, they’re very sensitive in needing that protein. So in targeting that BTK inhibitors keep the cells from getting the normal signals that they need to stay alive, and so the lymph nodes that are big get smaller, a spleen that might be big get smaller, white count eventually comes back down, for example. And those BTK inhibitors have also already encouragingly changed over recent years.

So there was…you’ll hear people say first generation, these were the first inhibitors that came out, that was a drug called ibrutinib (Imbruvica), which is still around. And then there are second generation that are approved that have come out as first treatment or treatment for previously patients that receive treatment.

Those second-generation BTK inhibitors are called zanubrutinib (Brukinsa) and acalabrutinib (Calquence) that are approved. The main other approved category of these targeted treatments I mentioned is venetoclax based treatment. And that targets something different, that targets a set of proteins inside the cell that tell the cell to stay alive too long. And so you have this accumulation and venetoclax targets that pathway. And the last thing I’ll mention about the BTK inhibitors that’s emerging is now there are trials of what are called non-covalent BTK inhibitors.

So they work in a different way, they go after BTK and so that they can work. The non-covalent, even for patients where the first and second-generation, traditional covalent BTK inhibitors I mentioned stop working, those are not yet approved officially for CLL, though they’re approved in mantle cell lymphoma. That’s a drug called pirtobrutinib (Jaypirca), that’s a non-covalent BTK. And the reason that emerging set of treatment, as I mentioned, is important is because it can work for patients where the first or second-generation covalent BTK inhibitors stop working. The venetoclax (Venclexta), as I mentioned, works by a different mechanism. So patients, of course, where the BTK stopped working, in many cases venetoclax can be helpful as well.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you so much. So I read a little bit, I did a little research on trials that you’re involved in, and there is a trial the EVOLVE CLL trial, and I wonder if you can talk about that a little bit because I think it is exciting for patients to hear that there might be an option for earlier intervention. And I’m not sure if you’re allowed to talk about any results yet, but if you can speak to results, that would be great to hear about those results too.

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Well, yes and no, thank you for bringing this up because this is very important. As you mentioned, it’s called the EVOLVE study. It’s led by a national cooperative group called SWOG, meaning there are lots of places that it’s available, not just larger centers, but smaller oncology centers as well. And this is to look at what’s called early intervention, meaning as we spoke about before, most patients with CLL don’t need treatment at the time that they’re diagnosed. The reasons for treatment are, we call those treatment indications are based on three main categories that I’ll just review. For some patients, it’s new or progressive symptoms like weight loss or, very symptomatic limiting life day-to-day activities like night sweats or fatigue, for example, that’s the first category of reasons some patients might need treatment is unmanageable side effects.

The second main category is if the lymph nodes get very large or impacting on organ function, or the same for the spleen, it’s getting very large to a certain size, or it’s affecting your ability to eat regular meals or losing weight. And then the last category of treatment indications that we generally wait to start treatment for are if it’s affecting the normal blood count.

So there’s not one magic white count where patients need to start treatment, but almost like weeds in a garden, if those CLL cells are crowding out the red blood cells, so the hemoglobin’s falling or it’s crowding out the platelets, so the platelets are crowding and can’t grow and reach a certain threshold, then we recommend treatment. Of course, there are scattered other reasons, but those are the main three categories. And the reason of waiting to start until those are met is because historically trials have been done to look at waiting for those indications versus treating around the time of diagnosis.

Those trials so far have included chemotherapy by itself or chemotherapy in combination. And most recently there was a trial looking at first-generation ibrutinib that was given continuously. And so far there’s been no survival. So no life expectancy benefit to early treatment versus waiting for those indications. And the other reason generally not treating all patients is because some patients never require treatment, about a quarter of patients. So if we offer treatment to everybody, at the time of diagnosis, there are patients that would get treatment that would be exposed to side effects and never needed. But what the EVOLVE study is uniquely looking at is randomizing. And randomizing means some patients will get treatment and some patients will wait until those traditional reasons to need treatment. But for those randomized to receive therapy, it’s that venetoclax based treatment combined with this antibody called obinutuzumab (Gazyva).

And the way that treatment is given for patients, is the same way it’s given for patients who outside of the trial need treatment, meaning they get the antibody infusion, then they get the venetoclax pill, but it’s for a fixed duration, meaning a total of one year of treatment. The trial is also only for patients with higher-risk CLL. So as I mentioned, some patients never need treatment, some patients do, some patients need it quicker. So rather than looking at this trial and saying all patients, including those with CLL, that’s likely to be slower-growing. The EVOLVE trial is only for patients who are more likely to need treatment in the next couple of years.  And the way that’s determined is a score called the CLL-IPI score, and CLL-IPI tries to identify patients more likely to need treatment in the next couple of years by a couple of key factors.

Stage at the time of diagnosis, it looks at age, and it looks at key factors of the leukemia itself, including something called deletion 17P or TP53, because that marker in the cells is a high risk of eventually needing treatment.  So to answer your question, what EVOLVE is looking at is taking higher-risk patients, so patients rather than all patients more likely to need treatment anyway, and around the time of diagnosis, randomizing to either be treated or to follow the traditional, sometimes called watch and wait or dynamic monitoring until they reach traditional markers. And ultimately, and it’ll likely take many years to look at, ultimately the question is looking at if that helps prolong patient survival by having higher-risk patients receive that fixed-duration treatment earlier in time. We don’t yet have any results or any results to share, because the study is still enrolling.

But again, I think it’s something for patients to be aware of, because it does look at the higher risk patients. But around a year, it has to be within a year of diagnosis. So patients who are newly diagnosed, the question to ask your oncology team is “Do I qualify?” if it’s something you’re interested for, and they’ll help walk you through that. If you haven’t had markers checked, for example, it might be a good time to ask about that, to see if this is something would be available, even if not available though, it does create a time to talk to your team about the markers, because those can inform regardless of trial or not maybe what to expect in coming years and likelihood of treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you for that. So as a cancer patient, one of the biggest questions I had when I was diagnosed, you hear the word “cancer” or in this case “CLL leukemia.”Two questions. One of them, is there a cure for CLL? And if not, are any of the…are there any trials looking at a cure for CLL?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Yes. Excellent. An understandable question. Traditionally, we say that CLL or others slower-growing, or sometimes you’ll hear the term indolent lymphomas, do tend to be slower-growing.  Some patients don’t need treatment. But the flip side of that is we generally think of them as not curable, that they’re a chronic condition and that treatment, the goal of treatment is to knock it down and relieve whatever symptoms or indications or reasons you’re starting treatment are.

But at some level, we historically think of CLL as either eventually coming back or sticking around, so to speak. However, I think most oncologists, most those in the field, feel that some of the treatments that are around or in combination, that we’re going to have some patients that have maybe what a term might be functional cure or individual, cure-like condition.

Meaning if our newer treatments for some patients can knock down the CLL so much that it either doesn’t come back or take so long to even show itself again, in a way that serves as what the purpose of cure, really is, which is to get it down to levels that it’s not causing problems or not coming back, for the lifetime of the patient. Bone marrow transplant is the only therapy historically that has been cured, has offered a cure for some patients. The downside and the reason that most patients aren’t referred to for bone marrow transplant is the risk side of it. Meaning, unfortunately, a bone marrow or stem cell transplant has such a high risk of directly causing side effects.

That could be life-limiting or chronic side effects from the transplant itself versus the agents available now that we aren’t using or referring to bone marrow transplant nearly as much, but I think it’s really encouraging what we’re seeing in responses. So we talked already about those main categories of BTK inhibitors or venetoclax, I didn’t yet talk about, but there are many trials that have looked at those in combination, or CAR T, for example, or bispecific antibodies that are knocking down the CLL to such low levels. But the hope is that serves as a way of functional cure. But it’s going to take time to see if that’s the case. But we’re all very encouraged and really believe that that’s on the horizon.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you so much. And even a functional cure sounds really hopeful, so I’m happy to hear that term. Thank you. And I want to be cognizant of your time and the time of everybody watching. So we are going to move into some of the questions that we’ve received from you watching this, patients. Remember, as patients, we should always feel empowered to ask our healthcare providers any and all questions we might have about our treatment and prognosis. Please remember, however, this program is not a substitute for medical care and always consult with your own medical team. So, Dr. Brander, let’s start here. How do you explain, you kind of covered this a little bit, CLL treatment options and prognosis to your newly diagnosed patients? And I think that the prognosis piece is really important, especially if they do start treatment. 

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Sure, absolutely. So, what are the things we’re looking for in terms of needing treatment?  Because some of those, especially the symptoms we’re noting a lymph node or spleen, for example, or symptoms of anemia, which is low red cells or bleeding from low platelets, it’s helpful for patients to understand what we’re looking for, but, of course, in the time between visits those are the things we want to help patients with if they notice.

And so we encourage them all the time to call our triage or send us, you know, most electronic medical records now, have ways to send your team a message. And we want to know about that from patients in between visits. In terms of prognosis, as I mentioned before, there are other CLL-specific labs usually on the blood, meaning a regular blood draw.

Most patients don’t need another lymph node biopsy or a bone marrow biopsy, though that happens in some cases. And two of those or some of those key markers I mentioned before, but they test in the leukemia, there’s one test called the FISH, F-I-S-H, it’s not specific to CLL, we use it in other cancers. But it’s to look for specific changes in the leukemia genomics, meaning the DNA, the genetic material of the leukemia, not genetics you’re born with, but the cancer itself.

And there are specific patterns and that can be helpful as I sit down with patients to say this isn’t 100 percent, but this is kind of what to expect and likelihood of needing treatment over the next couple of years. There’s another test called IGHV, another mutation test TP53 kind of beyond this to go over right now, but as you mentioned, I think it’s important to meet with your medical team and say, ‘How does this pertain to me specifically?”

In terms of prognosis, I think there’s two parts to that of understanding what to expect. There’s likelihood of needing treatment, there’s likelihood of time to treatment, and those kind of markers and staging system help in a good way. Right now, our historical expectations, meaning 5 or 10 years ago, we could often also sit with patients and say, “This is the prognosis in terms of survival.” Expected life expectancy on average, but in a good way, most of our systems nowadays with the newer treatments likely vastly underestimate patient survival, meaning those systems were designed when we only had chemotherapy treatments.

Now, we know patients even with the highest risk markers, the faster progressions are living, you know, years and years beyond what was expected with chemotherapy. So I just caution especially materials around from just a couple of years ago that likely they don’t pertain, but they can be helpful in knowing what to expect.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you for that. Answering that question. We have a couple of questions about BTK inhibitors, and you already talked a little bit about the role of those and why they’re significant in treating CLL. But another patient’s asking about the, of course, a lot of patients wonder, what are the side effects? They hear chemo and like, “Oh, my gosh, the side effects are going to be off.” Can you talk about the side effects and even maybe some unusual side effects that you’ve heard of from patients when using the BTK inhibitors?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Sure, absolutely. And so again, really important, these are things that as we maybe anticipate patients are going to start treatment, this is a long discussion of deciding between treatment, for example, as first treatment. There’s no trial saying one path is necessarily better than the other. So we try to individualize choosing between BTK inhibitors or that venetoclax-based therapy I mentioned. Some of that though comes about and what expected side effects are expected side effects for the individual. I try for patients to hear it from myself, other members of the team, the nurse, our pharmacist, for example.

And so patients shouldn’t feel overwhelmed to keep asking about what to expect or new side effects. There are some side effects we talk about regardless of the treatment. So I’ll just point out, anytime you’re starting treatment, you’ll hear the team talk about risk for infection, monitoring for fevers, reaching out to us about those kinds of side effects, lower blood counts that can happen regardless, not specific to BTK though it can happen there as well.

There’s some specifically though with BTK inhibitors, we ask patients to watch out for. Some BTK inhibitors can cause some cardiovascular side effects, meaning watching out for funny beating of the heart or what we call palpitations, skipped beats. There can be arrhythmias, some patients can have with time elevation in their blood pressure, for example. And then risk for bleeding, meaning BTK inhibitors affect how the platelets stick together similar to what aspirin does.

So the platelet levels may be normal but patients might have easier bruising, just generally manageable. But if there’s any kind of bleeding, certainly the team should be aware. It’s also the reason though, if you’re on a BTK inhibitor and you have a planned surgery or procedure, let your team know, because we may recommend or a lot of times recommend holding the medication before and after certain surgeries or procedures.

Other side effects can be muscle or joint aches. Some patients have some gastrointestinal side effects like looser stools or sensitivities to certain food causing looser stools, for example. And then there are some that are specific to the individual BTK inhibitor. This is the one point I’ll mention that first-generation BTK inhibitor ibrutinib, part of the reason for the second-generation zanubrutinib and acalabrutinib is not necessarily of them working better but to have less of these side effects that I just mentioned.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you for that. So this patient is telling us that he’s trying to plan life while living with cancer. It’s a challenge. It’s hard to know where to start. Can some patients go off of ibrutinib? I don’t say…ibrutinib after five years and enter a watch-and-wait kind of program. And will they be monitored during that time too, if they ever do go off of the medication?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Yeah. So again, more excellent, excellent questions. So of those main categories of treatment, the BTK inhibitors are given continuously, meaning, at least so far, the standard way we recommend of those treatments is that they’re taken every day, either once or twice a day, depending on which BTK inhibitor, and they’re taken every day. Unless patients run into progression, meaning the CLL learns to grow through its resistance or patients run into side effects that despite maybe team’s recommendation of changing the dose or holding the medications, that it’s just the medication is just not tolerated.

In those cases, there are cases where we do recommend stopping the treatment because of side effects. And the key there is that patients if depending how long they’ve been on treatment or how their CLL is responding, might not need to go on to the next treatment right away.

So to answer this patient’s question, if they were to run into a side effect that wasn’t manageable, there are patients where we say, stop treatment and let’s just watch things, see if you need treatment, if your CLL has no other reason to jump into the next therapy. And there have been encouraging things that we’re learning and that I think are hopeful to this patient’s question, which is maybe in the future there are patients where we proactively can tell them to stop after a certain time because of what we’ve learned for patients so far. But at the current moment in time, we don’t tell patients to stop at a certain amount of time.

But there are trials that are looking at that after a certain number of years. And there are also trials that have followed patients who have stopped therapy and some of those patients, as I mentioned, who are told to stop treatment due to other side effects or other reasons, may go a long time, a couple of years before they need to start therapy.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, great. Thank you. I’m going to add one little question there too, if you don’t mind. So we’ve talked about trials a little bit, and I know that patients can go to clinicaltrials.gov, but what if a patient lives in an area that doesn’t have a major academic center or maybe trials aren’t being done very much in their area? Do you have a recommendation for patients? Should they just ask their doctor about trials if say, for example, they want to go on one of these trials? What recommendations do you have for those patients?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Yes, absolutely. Starting with your healthcare team is very helpful to navigate to the right site. You mentioned the SWOG trial, which is online at a lot of the community and academic sites. So I would say also don’t or I encourage patients that just if they’re at a smaller site, it doesn’t mean there aren’t trials available. And then without going into all the individual, I guess societies and advocacy networks I really think that that’s been a tremendous benefit for patients is that there are societies through, you know, having leukemia or lymphoma, for example, that list or want to help patients connect them to what available trials there are.

Because while we think of trials as maybe the treatment, the reality is that a lot of trials are looking at other things too, patient’s physical function, patient’s other aspects of life besides the drug itself. So yes, I think that’s a great question for patients to be thinking about.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. And you’re right, talking about access to trials is a whole other issue that will probably take up an entire program. But there are the advocacy networks out there, even Patient Empowerment Network. We can maybe help with that a little bit too. So we have another patient who is concerned about chances of relapse and is asking if there are any lifestyle changes through diet and supplements or anything that you can speak to that may enhance their response or their duration response to the treatment?

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Yeah. So a very very great question to bring about. And this is the one area, understandably where many of us feel frustrated because we can’t tell patients specifically that this trial has been done and says this specific diet is helpful or this specific lifestyle change is helpful to make the treatment work for longer. I think some of that is because some of the general advice we give meaning maintaining daily activity or a well-balanced diet sound non-specific or simple, but I think do help in patients staying in an overall general health wellness so that they can benefit from the treatment and potentially have less side effects from the therapy.

But getting back to the question we just talked about, I think certainly trials or studies really need to be continuing to look at this, because I think there likely are things that we can be more specific to patients about. There are studies looking at physical fitness and exercise regimens not necessarily specific to CLL, although there are studies being done in that space, but to other cancers showing that physical activity and exercise can help even for patients not on treatment maintain control of their cancer. So general daily activity and exercise are important in studies that look at how do you tailor that to an individual I think are important too?

Lisa Hatfield:

All right. So probably time for this last question from a patient. “As a CLL expert, how do you help empower your patients so they can get the most out of their CLL treatment and survivorship? How do you work with them as a team to make sure, I guess they’re having the best outcome they can?”

Dr. Danielle Brander:

Absolutely. So it starts at the start. I guess so for conversations, meaning for those that don’t need treatment right away building the relationship, understanding how I can help patients and their caregivers help, for example, they like to learn how much they want to know, what resources can I connect them with. And then I think it’s important for them to have other team members that they can go to and talk to and hear it from, because sometimes the same information we can just share in different ways or approach differently. The nurse on our team or our pharmacist or I work with a wonderful group of nurse practitioners and physician assistants as well. And so from the beginning, I want patients to feel free to ask the questions that come to mind.

It’s amazing, of course, during the course of the visit when you’re going over your labs and that, that sometimes it’s easy to forget the questions you came in with. So, of course, anytime you can write them down before coming in, write them down and then maybe prioritize because all of us…I think it’s hard to remember everything. So prioritizing the questions we want to make sure we get to and go over as well as know that these same questions are going to mean different things to you the longer you’re living with your CLL. And so it’s okay to ask the same questions. Again, there’s never a question that any of us mind going over several times. And then just know how the team can help you. You know, are you coming? How much information do you want?

How much input do you want us to put? And what is your importance and priority? At the end of the day, I want all patients to know no one knows what it is, like living with it. No one knows what’s most important as much as you and your family or your caregiver team does. And I learn just as much from patients and the way they share their experiences. There’s a lot we can look at a group of patients with CLL and say how different each patient’s experiences, who needs treatment or not, who has side effects or not. But no one’s going to know as much as as you do living with it. And it’s our hope to help you wherever you are in your journey or whatever ways that we can help you.

Lisa Hatfield:  

Well, and I appreciate your comment that we can ask the same questions over and over if we need to. I know my oncologist when I first met with him, I felt guilty taking in more than two questions, but right before he moved, I took in a long, I rolled up a piece of paper, a long scroll, and I said, I have some questions for you, but I knew they were all repeat questions. But it does give us a little bit of peace of mind just hearing it again from somebody, especially in those initial phases of treatment, just hearing it, even if you have to hear it again and again. So thank you for mentioning that. It makes us feel a little more confident in taking those concerns to our providers, even if they’re repeated concerns. 

Lisa Hatfield:

Dr. Brander, thank you so much for being part of this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE Program. It’s these conversations that help patients truly empower themselves along their treatment journey. And on behalf of patients like myself and those watching, thank you very much for joining us.

Dr. Danielle Brander:  

Thank you for having me.

Lisa Hatfield:  

I’m Lisa Hatfield, thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network program. 

PODCAST: CAR T-Cell Therapy Care Partners | Understanding Your Role in Patient Care and Recovery

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Understanding CAR T-cell therapy and recovery is vital for care partners who are caring for a loved one undergoing this treatment approach. Dr. Shambavi Richard explains the CAR T-cell therapy process, potential complications, ongoing research in the field, and discusses how care partners can provide support at each stage of the process.

Dr. Shambavi Richard is the Co-Lead Physician for the Multiple Myeloma CAR-T Program at Mount Sinai Tisch Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Shambavi Richard.

Download Resource Guide

See More from The Care Partner Toolkit: CAR T-Cell Therapy

Transcript:

Katherine:

Today we’re going to learn about CAR T-cell therapy to help care partners understand how it works, what happens during recovery, and why care partners are so essential throughout the process. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar. At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey. This will allow you to provide feedback about your experience today. And it will help us plan future webinars. Finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today.  

Joining us is Dr. Shambavi Richard. Dr. Richard, welcome. Will you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Richard:

Hi. I’m Shambavi Richard. I am in the myeloma faculty at Mount Sinai. I’m Associate Professor of Medicine. And I codirect the CAR T and cellular therapies for myeloma at my institution.    

Katherine:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking the time.  

Dr. Richard:

Thanks for having me.  

Katherine:

Let’s begin with the basics of CAR T-cell therapy. What is it? And maybe, actually, we could start with what CAR is short for.  

Dr. Richard:

So, CAR stands for chimeric antigen receptors, so CAR T cell is a chimeric antigen receptor T-cell therapy. What that means is T cells, which is one of the cells for immune system are actually come from the patient. They’re expanded and activated in a manufacturing facility. And there they undergo genetic modification to form the CAR T cells. And what’s special about the CAR T cells is that they have the capacity to recognize myeloma cells and are efficient killers of the myeloma cells.   

Katherine:

Who might this approach be right for? What determines eligibility? 

Dr. Richard:

So, interestingly enough, today as we speak, CAR T cells may be eligible for many, many different kinds of – in the phases, many different phases of the myeloma journey. When they were initially tested, as most new therapies are, they were tested on patients who had very advanced myeloma, really were not candidates or did not have great options for any other kinds of therapy. And when they got tested in these groups of patients, they really had stellar results that far outstripped anything else that we had as options for patients in those advanced stages of myeloma. So, the approval for CAR T cells as they stand today for myeloma is for advance myeloma with patients who have had four or more lines of therapy and have had exposure to pretty much the major three classes of therapies for myeloma which includes proteasome inhibitors, imides, and anti-CD38 antibody therapy.  

But having said that, now CAR T cells are being moved into earlier lines of therapy are now being tested in these in various clinical trials. And even for newly diagnosed myeloma patients to see if they are as good as autologous transplants. Are they better than autologous transplants? And so on and so forth. So, really that’s what I mean by saying for now CAR T cells are appropriate for anyone if they are candidates for clinical trials. But in terms of approved indications for CAR T therapy, those are for advanced myeloma patients who have had at least four lines of therapy.  

Katherine:

Dr. Richard, what are the potential side effects or complications of CAR T-cell therapy? 

Dr. Richard:

So, there are several possible side effects with CAR T therapy.  

It’s a little different from an autologous transplants. And I bring that up just to say because they are both cellular therapies, so are frequently compared and contrasted with autologous transplants which we have had for about three decades now. So, the main side effect after CAR T therapy is something called CRS or cytokine release syndrome. So, that happens when CAR T cells recognize the myeloma cells and kill them. A host of chemicals called cytokines are released in the body. And this can make a person feel like they have a bad case of the flu. So, it may be things like fevers, chills, body pains, headaches, loss of appetite, nausea, fatigue. So, these are some common symptoms of cytokine release syndrome. But these are the milder forms, so in more severe cases of cytokine release syndrome, you can have things like drop in blood pressure, drop in oxygen levels, needing supplementation with oxygen.  

Or in terms of drop in pressure, they may need fluid resuscitation or sometimes even pressors, blood pressure medications that help to boost the blood pressure. So, that’s one major side effect. Another is something called neurotoxicity.  

So, you can have neurological side effects from CAR T therapy which when it occurs in the setting of CRS, that’s called ICANS or immune effector cell-associated neurotoxicity syndrome. That’s what that acronym stands for. And it has a constellation of symptoms such as confusion, disorientation, difficulty with some common everyday tasks. The handwriting may go off, attention deficit, things like that. But then in more severe forms of ICANS, you can actually have lethargy, coma, seizures, brain edema, so much more scary things.  

Then there is another form of toxicity called delayed neurotoxicity which looks completely different. Now you have things like Parkinson’s disease or neuropathies. Either cranial nerve neuropathies or peripheral neuropathies, Guillain-Barre which is a kind of ascending paralysis. So, all of these are also possible as neurotoxic side effects from CAR T therapy. Aside from these, there is another which is called HLH or macrophage activation syndrome or hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis syndrome wherein patients can have organ toxicity, a spiking ferritin levels, new fevers, new neurotoxic symptoms, additional lab abnormalities such as liver function test abnormalities. So, these are other forms of just general CAR T-cell toxicity.  

Then in addition to these, you can have infections, prolonged blood count abnormalities, cytopenia as we call it which can affect the white cells or the platelets or anemia and things like that. So, these are also possible. And then finally things like second primary malignancies which can happen, other malignancies that can happen that may be related to CAR T therapy. A lot of these are still being studied. We don’t have a good understanding of how frequently this happens. But these are all possible side effects of CAR T therapy.  

Katherine:

Do any of the complications have to result in hospitalization? Or can patients be treated outside the hospital? 

Dr. Richard:

So, the way things stand now, and this may be slightly different depending on the specific CAR T product.  

But we generally keep patients hospitalized for the first two weeks after the cell infusion. Most of the side effects such as the CRS and the ICANS tends to occur during this hospitalization phase. HLH and delayed neurotoxicities can occur while they’re still in the later phases of the hospitalization, or it can occur late after they get discharged from the hospital. Infections and cytopenias of course can happen for a while following CAR T therapy. Once they are discharged from the hospital, we ask that they stay close to us, usually within an hour or two of the hospital so that they can quickly come back in if there’s any issues. We see them quite frequently once they get discharged from the hospital. I see them at a minimum of once a week, more frequently at least a couple times a week, or even three times a week depending on what their blood count needs and monitoring needs are.   

So, we have them stay close to the hospital if they are far away. And the sponsor and our social worker, insurance can work together to figure out how to help them with the hotel costs if they have to stay close to us. So, that’s for an additional two weeks after they’ve discharged from the hospital. Following that, patients go back to their homes, but we still follow them quite frequently depending on what their needs are in terms of possible side effects.   

Katherine:

Dr. Richard, how is CAR T-cell therapy impacting the landscape of myeloma care?  

Dr. Richard:

So, as I’d hinted or alluded to previously, prior to CAR T cells appearing on the horizon, we had very limited options for patients who had had the first several lines of therapy.  

So, once they had been exposed to two proteasome inhibitors, two iMiDs, and then anti-CD38 antibody which is the three major class of myeloma drugs, they are then called triple class exposed or penta-exposed depending on how many of these drugs they’ve been exposed to.  

We had a study called the MAMMOTH study back – this was published back in 2019 prior to the era of CAR T cells and other T-cell directed therapies. And at the time they had looked at patients who were triple class exposed, and who had been exposed to daratumumab were refractory to daratumumab as their last line of therapy. And what we saw was with their next line of therapy or whatever else was available at the time for patients such as these, their expected response rate was only about 30 percent or so, number one.  

Two, their outlook was very poor with a median progression-free survival which means that the amount of time that patients could go without the disease coming back, and that median progression-free survival was less than six months. And their expected even median overall survival was well under a year. So, that was what the landscape looked like when CAR T cells came onto the scene. For instance, the CART2 trials, which is one of the approved products which is cilta-cel which is what we have now, we actually saw for this same group of patients, the response rates was now 98 percent.  

Deep responses were 83 percent. And we now have the final readout of their median progression-free survival which is almost three years. So, you can see a significant difference.  

Under six months, media progression-free survival to three years. And over 50 percent of the patients were living over three years. So, that’s kind of where we are at. I mean so it was no small improvement. This considerably kind of almost reset the bar and has given a new lease of hope and life to patients who had advance myeloma. And one of the things we say in myeloma is although we don’t, as yet, say that myeloma’s curable, we are working towards that. But we are also giving options for other treatments, other research to be effective in patients just by keeping them around longer.  

Katherine:

Have there been any recent research developments involving CAR T-cell therapy that patients should know about? 

Dr. Richard:

Absolutely. So, much as I have highlighted all the hope and the optimism and the good things about this, the fact is we’re still not curing people with these therapies.  

So, we called this a plateau in the survival curve which means that if we achieve that plateau, that means the disease is probably not coming back, and we have essentially the definition of cured. But we’re not seeing that. We’re still seeing a downslope in the survival curves of myeloma which means that patients are still relapsing in spite of these excellent therapies. So, there’s a lot of research going on into why are patients still relapsing? Is it because they’re losing the antigen which the CAR T cells are recognizing? Is it because the CAR T cells are no longer effective even though the antigen is still present? Is it because there’s a considerable lag time between the patients being freezed or collected, the cells being collected for the genetic modification in the lab to the time when the patients can actually receive these cells? And that can be anywhere between four to eight weeks.  

So, during this time period, patients with advanced myeloma may not remain static with their disease. The disease is progressing. They’re getting worse. They may not be candidates for these kinds of therapies. So, one of the areas of research is how can we speed up this process, this manufacture process? How can we make it much more available? Because they’re limited by the manufacturing facilities, their abilities to have these viral vectors, to be able to transduce these cells and genetically modify. So, can we take them off of those kinds of things? Can we automate this? Can we improve these manufacturing platforms? So, a lot of different things are being tested. And then as I’d also mentioned earlier, right now they’re approved for advance myeloma, but what if we can bring them up earlier? Are patients actually going to get cured by that? Are they going to have a much better progression-free survival with that versus waiting until they’re very advanced? So, these are all many, many things that are being looked at.  

In addition, a lot of these CAR T products, these approved products, all them are all recognizing one antigen on the myeloma cell. Now there are products are being looked at that are dual target antigen recognition ability. So, that’s another thing. So, maybe if the CAR T cells are missing one of the antigens, and they’re not able to use that to kill the myeloma cell, maybe the other antigen can pick up the slack. So, these are various things that are being looked at.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, now that we understand a bit more about what it is, let’s walk through the process.  

When a patient goes through CAR T, what happens first? 

Dr. Richard:

So, the first step is being referred to a CAR T physician. Right now, CAR T therapies can only be done in certain tertiary care institutions, not even all tertiary care institutions.   

They have to have the ability to manage and process cellular therapies. So, that’s limited right there. So, patients have to be referred to centers, so actually do these CAR T kind of therapies. Once they meet with the myeloma physician who deals with CAR Ts as well, then the way it works in our institution is then we assess them for which is the best kind of CAR T product the patient may be eligible for. Are they eligible for clinical trials? Do they fit the profile for clinical trial? Are the patients willing for clinical trails? If not, are they candidates for one of the commercially approved products? As I said, there is specific criteria. Patients have to have had at least four lines of therapy to be able to receive a commercially approved CAR T product.  

If that is the case, and once the process has been explained to the patient, they have to go through all the financials, the insurance approval. These are very expensive propositions. So, the insurance goes through all of the criteria to make sure that they will approve the product. Once the insurance approves, they also going through the institutional approval process to make sure that these are again being done for the right patient, and that they go through the institutional approval. There are several patient specific characteristics.

For instance, we want a patient who has the support structure to be able to support a therapy like this. They have to have a good performance status. They have to be relatively able to be able to handle these kinds of therapies. I went through all of those side effects that are possible. We look at their cardiac status. We look at the neurological status.  

We look at the pace at which their disease is escalating because these are again advanced patients. So, if somebody is relapsing very quickly, they may not have the time to wait to get to a slot for the apheresis, and then to wait again for the manufacturing to happen. So, we look at all of that. We look at their kidney function. And then finally in terms of their psychosocial, do they have their caretakers, the support system? Where do they live? Are they able to access our center? Are they from out of state? If so, how are we going to manage during those initial months until they’re able, stable enough to be discharged back to their referring physician?

So, we look at several things, so we have multiple teams of people, social work, pharmacy who looks at all of these different – and explains the pharmaceutical aspects of all of this, our finance team, our coordinators who put all of this together.  For the apheresis, we are involved with a apheresis team.   

And then the cell therapy lab that processes the cells, the vascular team to put in the lines required for the apheresis. So, there are several, several groups. And then if we need to get a consultation from our expert cardiologist or neurooncologist, we need to have those teams involved as well.  

Katherine:

How long does it take to know whether the treatment has been successful? 

Dr. Richard:

So, we get a sense depending on what their blood markers look like, we can get a sense within the first month if the patient is actually responding to the treatment or not. I generally wait for the first three months to do a actual formal assessment with their bone marrow and their PET scans and everything else because right around then they’ve gone through the initial acute post CAR T period. And so, at the time of the bone marrow we assess what it looks like, we send for a test called MRD which is minimal residual disease to see where they’re at with that. 

And PET scans to look at any areas of skeletal lesions or even extramedullary disease that they may have. So, I would say within the first month we get a sense, but by three months we do that first formal assessment.  

Katherine:

You mentioned the role of the care partner, and you’ve talked about the recovery process and how involved it is. What do you feel is the care partner’s role in helping a patient through the process? 

Dr. Richard:

I think much of it is emotional and psychological support. I think that is very, very key. But in terms of actually what they do, we do ask that they have a caretaker available 24/7 if possible at least for the first month or so following their CAR T. And this is because they need a lot of support going back and forth from wherever they’re residing whether it’s a hotel or whether it’s their own home because there are a lot of clinic visits during that time.  

We do ask that the patients don’t drive for at least the first month, maybe even the first couple of months following the CAR T because again they can have neurological side effects that may be somewhat subtle. Their judgement may be impaired, but they may not look that different. So, a caretaker who knows them well is very useful in saying, “There’s something weird about how Joe’s acting lately,” or something like that.

So, that’s very important as well to bring them back and forth and to manage all of these. And if there’s a problem in the middle of the night, if they’re having new fevers, they’re suddenly neurologically altered, they do need a person to be able to handle things and bring them in and get the adequate medical support.  

Katherine:

What questions should care partners be asking if they begin the process? 

Dr. Richard:

I think a good understanding of all of those.  

So, whatever that takes for each individual person. We have patients of various different kinds who have come to us, some who have researched it and really know what’s going on out there, and others who are comparatively, “What is this CAR T thing? We have no idea what this is all about.” So, I meet each one where they are. I go over the entire process. I touch on all the different things that we just spoke about. I talk about the logistics of it. I talk about the timing. One of the traffic jams is being able to get that initial fresis slot to be able to even send the cells to the manufacturing.

So, there’s a question of managing the resources and making sure that patients are getting to their CAR T slots in a timely manner. So, a good part of it is an understanding that all of this is not something that happens overnight. There is several moving parts. There is a way, and their system, and a way that all of these have to be aligned.  

So, I pretty much answer whatever they have, but I think questions touching on all of this. And finally, they exact thing that you asked, “How is it that they can help? What are the things that they can do to help?” And I think that is hugely important as well.   

Katherine:

Yeah. Why is it so important that care partners let the care team know about any changes in the patient? 

Dr. Richard:

I think the earlier we know of changes, the better. We can handle these things. There is a time sensitivity to a lot of this. If issues that happen are not addressed right away, they can evolve to more severe condition. And once if they’re more severe, they’re less likely to respond right away to the therapeutic maneuvers that we have. So, I think that’s really important.  

And if they’re outpatient, we do bring them in for hospitalization right away. If there is anything that is – the delayed forms of these side effects can sometimes be also a little bit harder to resolve and turn around. So, it’s important that they come back to the hospital right away, get admitted for the workup, so that we can escalate the speed at which things can be done.  

Katherine:

Being a care partner can be overwhelming at times. Do you have any advice to help care partners as they cope with their role? 

Dr. Richard:

There’s a lot of support groups. I really encourage them to start talking to a social worker right away. So, our social workers really do get engaged in the process pretty early. There are many different kinds of support groups. There are support groups that are myeloma specific, and then support groups within those that are offshoots for CAR T patients, so people either thinking of going through a CAR T or in the middle of it or even post CAR T.  

All the anxiety of the monitoring and, “Is the disease going to come back?” And that can weigh heavily on the caretaker as well. So, an emotionally supported caretaker and patient just makes it a lot easier for everybody including the medical care teams to be able to handle all of this.   

Katherine:

We have a few questions that are community sent in prior to the program. I’d like to start with Melissa’s question. “Do you have any advice for handling the emotional highs and lows as well as personality changes within the relationship?”  

Dr. Richard:

That can be a challenging one. And as medical doctors, we tend to not be the best people to usually – and so what I really draw on is social work and our coordinator’s support for that kind of thing. At our institution we have a affiliate of care of supportive care oncology team who help with a lot of the symptom management or anything like that. 

And if it’s something that actually needs more than just counseling, if they actually need medications, then we have our psychiatric oncology groups who also help with a lot of those. So, I think being prepared for any of these is important, but I think a lot can be handled just by having a good adequate support of care that starts right at the beginning of the process before things start getting overwhelming.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Here’s another question we received: What kind of nutrition does a patient need during this process? And how can the care giver ensure adequate nutritional support? 

Dr. Richard:

So, among our various teams, we have actually a nutritionist who actually meets with the patient about the time of their discharge from the hospital. And they give them a lot of guidelines about how to handle various dietary things.  

In general, going into CAR T, a well-balanced healthy diet is always a good thing. Maintain your diet well as much as possible. Following the CAR T process, we do follow guidelines for what we call a neutropenic diet wherein well-cooked meats are preferable to anything undercooked because that’s where you can have a lot of bacteria. We advise against raw or undercooked meats of all kinds. Pasteurized foods obviously much better than don’t go for the unpasteurized. Don’t go for the soft cheeses which tends to be unpasteurized or typical wherein you can have – and also in terms of nuts, prefer the roasted nuts rather than the raw nuts and things like that. So, any fruits and vegetables, we advise that they should be well washed and cleaned. 

We advise against the thin-skinned ones that are harder to clean. We prefer rather the thick-skinned fruits where you can wash it well and then peel it. So, those have less tendency to spread diseases and bacteria and things like that. So, those are some of the things that we advise. And we do give them a dietary sheet wherein they have the dos and don’ts, but because it’s easy to forget some of these. We prefer don’t go to delis. Don’t get deli meat. So, if you like those kinds of things, get the packaged form where you can control the quality of things like that.  

Katherine:

What about something like raw fish? Is that recommended or not? 

Dr. Richard:

We prefer it not. Raw fish again like smoked fish and things like that, we prefer to avoid those things at least for the first few months after CAR T. We generally make these somewhat straight for the first three months.  

Post CAR T patients are immunosuppressed for a long time. There’s no great science at the three-month mark because I think at three months plus one day you’re probably still at some risk. And everybody’s immune recovery is different. So, patients who are immunosuppressed for a long time, I say, “Just try to stick to these unless it’s something that you really can’t do without.” But it’s much better to try to maintain these guidelines for as long as possible.  

Katherine:

Another audience member wants to know, “What is the difference between CAR T and bispecific antibody treatment?” 

Dr. Richard:

Oh, good one. So, as I mentioned, with the CAR Ts, the T cells that are taken from the patient is actually genetically modified. So, these are kind of souped-up T cells if you want to put it that way because one, they efficiently recognize that myeloma cells, and two, they are efficient killers of the myeloma cells which are the two main jobs of your T cells.  

With a bispecific antibody, this is an off the shelf thing, so this is not manufactured specifically for the patient. And then it’s a drug. And the drug has two receptors. One recognizes the myeloma cell, and the other recognizes the patient’s own T cells. So, these are unmodified T cells that just floating around. And they bring the patient’s T cells to the myeloma cell to kill it. So, that’s the difference. It’s an off the shelf product versus a manufactured. The T cells are your own. They are not manufactured in any way, but otherwise they’re kind of similar in that they’re both T-cell directed killing mechanisms, and they recognize the myeloma cell.  

Katherine:

Okay. Thank you for that. Thoughtful answers, Dr. Richard. We appreicate it. Before we end the program, I’d like to get your final thoughts. What message would you like to leave the audience with? 

Dr. Richard:

I want to leave a message of hope. I want to leave a message that there is so much research going on.  

And we couldn’t do any of these without the involvement of patients and their caregivers. And that’s how we have moved the field forward to this extent. And that’s how we continue to move the field forward. There’s a lot of reason to hope. And the Holy Grail, of course, is cure. And that’s what the entire myeloma community is working toward getting to that goal one day. So, I want to thank the patients and the caregivers for helping to move this, so helping themselves and helping others.  

Katherine:

Well, Dr. Richard, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.  

Dr. Richard:

Thank you for having me.  

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners.  

If you’d like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan programs in the future. To access tools to help you become a proactive care partner, visit powerfulpatients.org.  

I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us. 

PODCAST: Follicular Lymphoma Patient Expert Q&A: Start Here

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The START HERE program bridges lymphoma expert and patient voice, whether you are newly diagnosed, in active treatment or in watch and wait. In this webinar, Dr. Sameh Gaballa provides an overview of the latest in follicular lymphoma, emerging therapies, clinical trials and options for follicular lymphoma progression and recurrence.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa is a hematologist/oncologist specializing in treating lymphoid malignancies from Moffitt Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Gaballa.

Download Resource Guide  |  Descargar guía de recursos

See More from START HERE Follicular Lymphoma

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield: 

Welcome to the START HERE Patient Empowerment Network Program. This program bridges the expert and patient voice enabling patients and care partners to feel comfortable asking questions of their healthcare team.  Joining me today is Dr. Sameh Gaballa, an oncologist hematologist from Moffitt Cancer Center. Dr. Gaballa’s clinical interests are treating patients with lymphoid malignancies. His research focuses on developing novel targeted agents for treating patients with indolent lymphomas, such as follicular lymphoma, marginal zone lymphoma, and lymphoplasmacytic lymphomas. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Gaballa.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Thank you, Lisa. Happy to be here.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. The world is complicated, but understanding your follicular lymphoma diagnosis and treatment options doesn’t have to be. The goal of START HERE is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of follicular lymphoma treatment and survivorship. 

Before we get started, please remember to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There’s great information there that will be useful during this program and after. So let’s get started. So, Dr. Gaballa, I’d like to talk about what’s on the follicular lymphoma treatment radar. There’s a lot going on in terms of emerging treatment options, clinical trial data, and other learnings for the follicular lymphoma community.  But before we jump into how the armamentarium is expanding, can you provide an explanation of what follicular lymphoma is?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, absolutely, thank you, Lisa. So, follicular lymphoma is a type of B-cell non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. What does that mean? It’s basically, so in your body, there are cells that are part of the immune system; these are lymphocytes. These cells normally, their normal function, is to fight infection, they’re part of your immune system. They actually are involved also with fighting cancers, but sometimes they become malignant. But not all lymphomas are the same. Lymphomas are a huge family. So there’s Hodgkin’s lymphoma, there is non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Within non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, there is a type called B-cell non-Hodgkin’s and there’s a T-cell non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. And then within B-cell non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, there are two big groups. So one group, they are these aggressive lymphomas that grow quickly, they can make you sick quickly, and these lymphomas we have to treat right away.

And then you have those slow-growing indolent lymphomas that are sometimes very commonly actually diagnosed by chance, or incidentally, that’s usually the most common way these are diagnosed.  And the most common slow-growing indolent lymphoma is going to be follicular lymphoma. Now, where do you find these lymphomas? It’s a blood disease. So, again, we said that those cells are normally borne in the bone marrow, they are in the blood, they’re in the lymph nodes, they’re in the spleen. So usually you would find those malignant cells usually in the lymph nodes, but you could also find them sometimes in the spleen or in the blood or in the bone marrow as well. And the symptoms they cause will be dependent on where they are and how big the, those, the involvement is.

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, thank you for that detailed overview, Dr. Gaballa. We do have follicular lymphoma patients and care partners who are newly diagnosed, in active treatment, watching and waiting, and also living with their disease joining this program. No matter where you are on your journey, START HERE provides easy-to-understand, reliable, and digestible information to help you make informed decisions. Dr. Gaballa, we’re going to dive right into things with a high-level update. So, can you speak to the novel pathways and targets that are currently under investigation in follicular lymphoma? And what are the most important highlights to point out to patients and families?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, absolutely. So you have to remember, number one, not all patients with follicular lymphoma have to be treated. A fair number of patients can be safely observed initially, because the…so when I was talking about the types of lymphoma, so the aggressive lymphomas, those ones are treatable, but curable, meaning you treat it, goes away, good chance that it goes away and does not come back. Whereas follicular lymphoma, those are slow-growing lymphomas. They may or may not cause problems. The treatment though, they’re very treatable. There are a lot of treatments available, but the thing is they’re not curable, meaning that they go into remission, they could stay in remission for years, but then eventually they would come back again. So you have to remember that because of that, large trials were done previously where patients who had no symptoms and not a lot of disease, they were randomized, half would get treated.

The other half were on a watch and wait. And the patients who, survival is exactly the same in both groups, there was not really any advantage to early treatment versus treatment as if there’s a reason in the future. And we typically have some indications where we decide, okay, well, it’s time to treat. And those basically have to do if the lymph nodes are big enough or they’re close to an important structure and we don’t want them to grow more and maybe press on an important structure, or if they’re causing some kind of symptom or they’re causing anemia or low platelets. I mean, there has to be one, because there has to be one reason for why you’re trying to treat that patient, because you’re basically trying to fix a problem.

So if there’s no problem initially, it doesn’t make sense to treat it. Now, there are lots of available treatments, it could be only immune therapy, something like rituximab (Rituxan)  or obinutuzumab (Gazyva); these are antibody treatments. There are also combinations with chemotherapies, like bendamustine (Treanda), rituximab for if we have relatively bulky disease. There are options as well that do not involve chemotherapy.

So something like pills like lenalidomide (Revlimid) combined with rituximab, those are also options that can be used in follicular lymphoma. But over the last few years, there have been a lot of changes in follicular lymphoma and a lot of novel targets and a lot of novel treatments available. So, for example, a few years ago now, we’ve had CAR T-cell therapy approved. Right now, we have two products approved, axi-cel and tisagenlecleucel (Kymriah). There’s also data that was presented with liso-cel in follicular lymphoma. So hopefully we might see an approval for that as well. So that’s one class.

There’s also bispecific antibodies, and it’s very exciting times. We had the first bispecific antibody approved in the United States in December of 2022. That’s mosunetuzumab (Lunsumio). So what is a BiTE antibody? These basically are advanced types of immune therapies where you give the patient an antibody that has two ends to it, one end sticks to the cancer cell, the other end sticks to your immune cells. So it’s basically , it’s handholding your own immune cells or your own T cells to go and get attached to the cancer cell and kill it, not chemotherapy. It, of course, can have some immunological side effects like fevers or inflammation initially when it’s done, typically when in the first cycle or second cycle.

But something called cytokine release syndrome rarely can cause neurological toxicity. That’s also very transient usually, and very rare with bispecific antibodies. But those are two up and coming treatments. Right now, they’re approved in patients who’ve had relapsed/refractory disease, meaning they’ve had two or more lines of previous therapies, but they’re…we have them now in trials where we’re looking at those agents in earlier lines of therapy. There are other agents as well.

A few years ago we had tazemetostat (Tazverik) approved, which is a pill that targets an enzyme in the cells called EZH2 and they basically, this pill tries to ask the cancer cell to differentiate, rather than get stuck and not die. So they differentiate and then they eventually die, so that’s another class of medicine. And we’ve now seen some data with BTK inhibitors. There’s been data presented from the ROSEWOOD Study with zanubrutinib plus obinutuzumab (Brukinsa plus Gazyva); it’s not yet FDA-approved, but the data looks interesting and certainly needs to be looked at further.

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, thank you for that overview. It seems like as a blood cancer patient myself, it seems like a hopeful time for patients with the treatments that are kind of on the horizon or are in clinical trials right now. So thank you for that.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Absolutely.

Lisa Hatfield:

So it’s that time now where we answer questions, some of which we’ve received from you, the patients watching this. Remember, as patients, we should always feel empowered to ask our healthcare providers any and all questions we might have about our treatment and prognosis. Please remember, however, that this program is not a substitute for medical care. Always consult with your medical team.  So, Dr. Gaballa, let’s start here. How do you explain follicular lymphoma treatment options and prognosis to your newly diagnosed patients? And what does shared decision-making look like in your office?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Oh, absolutely. So follicular lymphoma, you really have to explain to the patient what, how are we coming to the recommendation that we’re currently giving. So if we think this is, this patient is a good candidate for a watch-and-wait approach, for example, we really have to walk them through why that really is the best option and not why should we jump on treatments and vice versa, if we think this patient needs to be treated, how do we really…the patient really has to understand all the other treatment options and why this needs to be treated. Because a lot of patients initially, sometimes when you present them with a watch-and-wait approach, if they don’t know all the background, they might not feel very comfortable because they might think, “Well, I have this cancer in me, and we’re not doing anything about it, and that doesn’t really sound too…something I should be doing.”

But then when you explain to them, “Well, you see, you don’t have a lot of disease, those studies have already been done in the past where patients who were treated or not treated, the survival was the same, so there, you might get side effects from the treatment, but not necessarily have benefits. And in the future, should this need to be treated, we have a lot of things to do.” So, really, so this is kind of the shared decision portion where you just have to walk the patients through why that will be the best situation. There is data with single-agent rituximab, even in patients who are asymptomatic, and we have the UK data, and that’s an option.

And that is also offered to some of the patients, even if they’re not symptomatic and they don’t have a lot of disease, if that’s what really the patient wants, if they’re not really comfortable with a watch and wait. And there’s again some data to help justify that. Again, there’s no advantage in overall survival, but sometimes the patients would kind of feel more in control. They feel like, “Okay, I did something about it.” So that’s the shared approach.

In terms of your other question about prognosis, unfortunately that’s an area of an unmet need. I mean, we have some tools to help us differentiate follicular lymphoma patients from each other, which patient is high-risk, meaning those are the patients who might relapse quickly, or they might not respond well to treatments. Unfortunately, we don’t have great tools. We have something called a FLIPI score, which is, we use a number of parameters including clinical parameters like stage or age and some other parameters as well, and we have a scoring system. But it doesn’t 100 percent predict if this is going to be a high-risk follicular lymphoma or a low-risk.

Unfortunately, the best predictor of prognosis for follicular lymphoma, you would know about retrospectively,  it’s something called POD24, progression of disease in 24 months. Meaning that if you have a patient who’s treated with chemotherapy and immune therapy, and then they go into remission, and then they relapse again in less than 24 months, progression of disease within 24 months, those are the, those represent about 20 percent of follicular   lymphoma patients, and those represent a high-risk group of patients. That’s the best tool that we have. But unfortunately, if you’re diagnosed today, you’re not going to know if you’re in this group or not until you actually need to be treated and not just treated with immune therapy.

It has to be with chemotherapy as well. And then if you relapse within two years, then we know that this is a high-risk entity. There is genetic testing, there is something called a FLIPI-m7 scoring system. But again, these tools are not great to tease out the low risk from the high-risk follicular lymphoma patients. But 80 percent of patients who are not going to be POD24, meaning that they get treated, they’re in remission for two years or more, and actually those patients have very similar survival to the general population. So, yeah, so a lot of times we don’t know right away, but we do have some tools to kind of give us an idea.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that information. It’s kind of hard for cancer patients to only know what their prognosis is retrospectively, but that’s a great explanation. Thank you. Okay, another patient question, “How does the staging of follicular lymphoma impact treatment choices?”

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, so as you saw, I didn’t really stress too much about staging, because it’s a blood disease. So the vast majority of patients are going to be what we call stage III to IV disease. So, obviously when you see a patient if if they, they might think that, “Oh my God, I have a stage III to IV cancer,” because that’s really what they’re familiar with. But follicular lymphoma is a blood disease, so by default it’s going to be in a lot of lymph nodes, it might be in the bone marrow as well, but stage III to IV disease follicular lymphoma doesn’t, that does not mean that this is a terminal cancer. Patients could live completely in normal life, even with a stage III to IV follicular lymphoma. This is not like a breast cancer or colon cancer where stage is everything.

But why do we have a staging system? Obviously, there’s a need to have staging system for all cancers, but clinically, the only time it makes a difference is there’s a small group of patients who have a truly stage I or II disease, meaning just one group of lymph nodes on one side of the diaphragm that may fit within one radiation field. So if you have someone who’s just coming in with one or a few groups of lymph nodes all in one place, we call that a stage I or II follicular lymphoma, not common, because again, most patients are stage III to IV. The only difference there is you can potentially offer those patients radiation therapy if it’s truly localized, but then you would need to do a bone marrow biopsy and confirm that it’s not in the bone marrow.

And if it is localized within one radiation field, that can be offered and we can sometimes give after radiation therapy, either observe it or consider giving rituximab afterwards. But that’s the only time where we’re going to mention staging, again, uncommon because most, the vast majority of patients are going to be stage III to IV. So why would we do that? Why would we irradiate if it’s only one group of lymph nodes? Because there’s about, I mean, if you irradiated, those lymph nodes will go away, but there’s about maybe a, it’s different. The number is different between studies, but about maybe a third of patients, if you irradiate that group of lymph nodes or one lymph node, it actually might not come again in the future. So you might have very long remissions/possible cure if you…and this is the only situation where we would consider treating someone who does not have symptoms, because you could have very long remissions with radiation.

Lisa Hatfield:

Although follicular lymphoma is a slow-growing cancer, can you speak to the signs that the disease is progressing in the body, what signs that patients might want to look out for?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, absolutely. So, typically we educate the patients to there are some red flags to look out for, not just for progression,but also for another condition called disease transformation. So, follicular lymphoma does have a, there is a possibility that it can transform from a slow-growing lymphoma to an aggressive lymphoma. Now, this happens at a rate of about maybe 2 to 3 percent per year, but it’s a cumulative risk, so meaning if a patient lives many, many decades, their lifetime risk can be up to as high as 20, 25 percent, 30 percent, depending on the different literature, so there is a chance that these slow-growing lymphomas can transform to an aggressive lymphoma.

And when they do know this, there’s no watch and wait for transformed disease. It has to be treated with chemo immunotherapy because the goal of treatment then is to try to get rid of the aggressive component. What are the signs and symptoms to suggest that you might have transformed disease? This is not something that the patient would typically need to look out for. I tell my patients that, “You don’t need to see, do I have transformed disease or not. This is going to come, and you’re going to know when you have transformed disease. Extreme fatigue, drenching night sweats, the fever sometimes that are not going away.”

The patient might have pain if the lymph node is pressing on some important structure. They may have loss of appetite, loss of weight. So again, something that dramatically happens quickly over a few weeks of time. So if the patient feels sick for one reason or another and they’re not getting better, it can all happen within a few weeks’ time frame. This is the time to get checked early on and go see your oncologist, because then we might need to investigate if there is any potential for transformation. So that’s issue number one.

Issue number two is, which is the much more common scenario, which is the follicular lymphoma is slowly progressing. How would you know? I mean, if you notice a lymph node that in your neck or under the armpits or the groin areas, if they’re growing, then that needs to be evaluated. I mean the patients should expect that those will be growing, they will grow. But they grow over months and years. They don’t grow over weeks.

So anytime you kind of are unsure, if you feel that it’s growing faster than usual, this is, again, something to look out for. And then the B symptoms that I mentioned. So like the sweats, the fevers, the weight, loss of weight, loss of appetite, these are also sometimes things to look out for. Not necessarily, they don’t always mean that it’s transformed disease. It can also be that the follicular lymphoma is also progressing and might need to be treated as well.

Lisa Hatfield:

And then just a quick follow-up to that question. So a patient is watching out for these red flags, but are they going through any kind of regular monitoring in your office? Are you meeting with them on a regular basis? And how frequent might that be for a follicular lymphoma patient who’s watching and waiting?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah. So how does watch and wait look? So, and I tell patients always watch and wait does not mean ignore. Watch and wait means that we’re monitoring the disease, we’re looking at it. How do we do that? So typically we would see the patient maybe every three to six months. And then depending on how do we, when we get a sense or tempo of how their disease is progressing, then we’ll know how often we need to see them. I’ve had, I still have patients where I’m seeing them every three months. And I also have some patients where the disease has been stable for years, I only see them once a year.

In terms of imaging, that’s also sometimes an area of controversy. Typically, initially for the first maybe year or two years, I do like a scan, like a CT scan every six months, just to get a sense of how quick or how slow the disease is progressing. If there’s absolutely no change at all, then sometimes we either don’t do scans and just go by the patient’s symptoms and blood work and physical exam, or we do maybe once a year scan but not more than that. So this is how we would monitor the patients in a watch-and-wait approach.

Lisa Hatfield:

And we have another question about treatment profiles, “What can I do to reduce side effects during active treatment?”

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

So it depends on what the treatment that you’re getting. If it’s immune therapy, like rituximab alone, those typically don’t really have a lot of side effects. I mean, sometimes with the first one or two treatments, you might get an allergic reaction, an infusion allergic reaction, which is very common, but subsequently it shouldn’t really cause a lot of side effects. If the patient is getting chemotherapy, well, it depends on which chemotherapy they’re getting. But in general, it’s always good to stay hydrated and to stay physically active. So if the patient goes in with a healthy body, well-hydrated, you eat fresh fruits and vegetables, walking 30 to 60 minutes a day, your body is going to handle the side effects much better than if you’re going in, you’re very weak, and your general health is not adequate.

Lisa Hatfield:

Another patient is asking if you can speak to emerging treatment options for patients with relapsed/refractory follicular lymphoma?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah. So the field of follicular lymphoma is changing rapidly. I always tell patients that sometimes the best treatment is actually on a clinical trial because those are going to be the next generation of treatments that are going to get approved in the next few years. But right now we have the most effective therapy really is CAR T-cell therapy. CAR T-cell therapy by far is the most effective treatment we have at this time. It’s approved for patients who have had two or more lines of prior therapies. We also are investigating this.

I actually have a trial here at Moffitt where we’re looking at CAR T-cell therapy as early as in the second line, in patients who have what we call the high-risk ones, the POD24. So a patient with POD24 follicular lymphoma relapsed in less than two years. We have a trial to investigate the role of CAR T-cell therapy in this setting. The other very promising group of treatments, again, is bispecific antibodies, again, currently approved in the third line, mosunetuzumab.

But there are others coming up and have data on epcoritamab-bysp (Epkinly), as well as a lot of other bispecifics, as well as combinations. I mean, epcoritamab-bysp has also data presented with combination with lenalidomide. And right now, the follow-up duration is not very long, but so far, it looks extremely promising with very high response rates. So those also might be coming very soon. And, of course, once something works in the relapsed/refractory setting, we start looking at earlier lines of therapy.

And actually, we’re now looking at trials in the first-line setting with some of these agents as well. Tazemetostat is a pill. It’s also approved in the third-line setting, but we’re also investigating it. We have a trial here where we’re looking at combining it with standard rituximab, lenalidomide, so tazemetostat plus rituximab, lenalidomide as early as in the second line. So that also is interesting. And as I mentioned before, BTK inhibitors currently being looked at in trials might also have a role in follicular lymphoma very soon.

Lisa Hatfield:

And this patient is asking about the significance of bispecific antibody treatment. And you touched on that a little bit. It looks like she’s also asking if there are specific genetic or molecular markers that can predict a patient’s response. And if I try to translate that, maybe she might be asking about targeted therapy.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, so bispecific antibodies and CAR T-cell therapy, they target something called CD, either CD19 or CD20, and that’s almost universally expressed on B cells. So most of your follicular lymphoma patients are going to be expressing CD19 or CD20. Tazemetostat is the pill that I talked about.  It inhibits an enzyme called EZH2. Some patients have an EZH2 mutation where it seems to work very well. However, tazemetostat also works in patients who don’t have that mutation. So that’s why it’s not very important to check for the mutation.

It seems maybe it works better in patients who do have the mutation, but it does work as well in patients who do not have that mutation. So unlike other malignancies and other cancers, biomarkers are not yet driving a lot of our treatment decisions in follicular lymphoma as of right now.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. Another question. Is it common for follicular lymphoma to transform into a more aggressive type of lymphoma? And how would that change a treatment plan? And maybe how common is it for that to happen?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah. There’s about a 2 to 3 percent chance per year that the slow-growing lymphoma can transform to an aggressive lymphoma. That, if it does transform, I mean we talked about the symptoms and signs, you get sick quickly, rapidly enlarging lymph nodes, loss of weight, loss of appetite, drenching night sweats. No, a transformation, typically we would do a PET scan, see what’s the most active lymph node, try to get a biopsy from that and confirm there is a large cell transformation. Now, that’s a completely different disease, it needs to be treated completely differently, typically with chemoimmunotherapy.

Something like R-CHOP, for example, is one of the most common regimens we use in this scenario. And the goal of treatment here is to try to get rid of the aggressive lymphoma component here so that it does not recur again. I mentioned it’s about a 2 to 3 percent per year, but it depends on how long the patient lives. So if they live many, many, many decades, their lifetime risk is anywhere between 20 to 30 percent max during their lifetime.

Lisa Hatfield:

And As a blood cancer patient myself, this is a great question this patient is asking, “Is there a risk of secondary cancers after receiving treatment for follicular lymphoma?”

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

So that’s always a concern, and it depends on what treatment they had. So chemotherapy that can potentially damage DNA can lead to second malignancies, including things like acute leukemia. Luckily, that’s not a high risk. That’s a rare side effect from some of those chemotherapies. Some of the pills can do that as well. Something like lenalidomide can sometimes have second malignancies. But we’re talking about rare incidences, and the benefits usually would outweigh the risks. But it’s not with all treatments, meaning some of the other immune therapies that do not involve chemotherapy would not typically be associated with some of those second malignancies. So it just really depends on what exactly the treatment you’re getting.

Lisa Hatfield:

Can you speak to maintenance therapy and monitoring in follicular lymphoma? And what signs of infection should patients and care partners be aware of during treatment?

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

Yeah, so there have been randomized studies in slow-growing lymphomas that show that if you do, after you get your standard treatment for follicular lymphoma, if you do what we call a maintenance treatment, usually with rituximab, which is an immune therapy, where you do it every two to three months for about two years, we have data showing that that decreases or delays the risk of relapse. However, it doesn’t change the overall survival, meaning that it just has patients in remission longer. When their disease comes back, they just get treated again at that point, and it doesn’t really affect survival.

So it’s one of those shared decision-making with the patients. I usually go over the risks and benefits of maintenance therapy. It’s optional. It’s not a must. During COVID, we pretty much stopped all maintenance treatments, because the risks were outweighing the benefits because maintenance treatment is…will suppress the immune system more, is associated with more infections. And these infections can be anything. I mean, it could be a pneumonia, could be recurrent urinary infections. It could be any type of infection. So there’s always this risk and benefit that we have to discuss with the patient.

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, Dr. Gaballa, thank you so much for being part of this Patient Empowerment Network START HERE program. It’s these conversations that help patients truly empower themselves along their treatment journey. And on behalf of patients like myself and those watching, thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Gaballa.

Dr. Sameh Gaballa:

No, thank you, Lisa. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Lisa Hatfield:

I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you for joining this Patient Empowerment Network program.

PODCAST: Managing Life With AML | What You Should Know About Care and Treatment

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What do you need to know when it comes to managing life with acute myeloid leukemia (AML)? In this webinar, Dr. Alice Mims, an AML specialist and researcher, discusses how treatment decisions are made and how test results may impact therapy. Dr. Mims will shares the latest advances in research and key advice for living well with AML.

Dr. Alice Mims is a hematologist specializing in acute and chronic myeloid conditions. Dr. Mims serves as the Acute Leukemia Clinical Research Director at The Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center – James. Learn more about Dr. Mims.

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Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello, and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today. Today’s program is a continuation of our Thrive series. And we’re going to discuss navigating life with AML, and how you can engage in your care. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, joining us today is Dr. Alice Mims.  

Dr. Mims, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Yeah, sure. Thank you, Katherine. I’m Alice Mims. I’m a physician and associate professor at Ohio State University. And also, the section head for the myeloid and acute leukemia program within our division of hematology. 

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today, Dr. Mims. We start all of our webinars in our thrive series with the same question; in your experience, what does it mean to thrive with AML? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure, I think that’s a great question. So, really for me, I think thriving with AML is very patient- or person-dependent. It really depends on making sure that your treatment goals align with your care. And so that means really being an active participant in your diagnosis, understanding the disease process, and making sure that your care team really understands what your overall goals are for your treatment. 

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that because it helps us to understand as we move through the program today. One part of thriving with AML is finding a treatment approach that manages your disease and fits with your lifestyle. Before we talk about therapy, can you tell us how treatment goals are established for an individual patient? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, for individual patients I think it’s very important that there is an initial discussion that doesn’t feel too shortened that you can have time with your care team to really go into depth about the diagnosis, about the specifics of your particular subtype of acute myeloid leukemia, understanding the treatment options, and then being given time allowed to reflect on all of that information. So, then you can come back and have your questions better answered that may come from that initial discussion. 

And then help you with your team make a decision based on that information that works best for you. 

Katherine Banwell:

Outside of patient preference, what other factors do you take into account when working with a patient to decide on a treatment plan?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, there are multiple different factors that we try to take into account. Again, yeah most importantly what patients’ goals are like you mentioned, but those include overall health, including different comorbidities, so what other healthcare diagnoses, medications are you taking, what are the patient’s age, thinking about that for long-term goals, overall support from loved ones, family to — just because care can be really involved. And then in particular, thinking about specific features of that individual patient’s AML, including molecular, genetic features of the leukemia. 

Katherine Banwell:

Well, let’s talk more in depth about the test results you just mentioned. 

What is the test for genetic markers? And how is it conducted? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, there are a few different tests that we use under that scope of genetic markers. So, those include looking at chromosomal abnormalities of the DNA. So, with cytogenetics, and then also more specific prose where we call FISH testing. And then also we look for specific gene mutations through next generation sequencing, or PCR testing. And so, we use all of those results together to give us the most information we can about that individual’s leukemia. 

Katherine Banwell:

How has molecular testing revolutionized AML care?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Oh gracious. It’s really done such – so much for leukemia. And just things are so different even where they were five years ago because of having molecular mutations, that information available. 

So, it helps with discussing prognosis. So, we know that different molecular features can tell us about curative intent and what are the treatment steps we would need to take to give the best chance long-term. And then also now, we’ve evolved to where we have directed therapies that can target mutations or the proteins that arise from those mutations with therapeutic options. 

Katherine Banwell:

Is this testing standard following an AML diagnosis? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

It is standard following an AML diagnosis. That’s recommended within all of the guidelines with patients and really should be done for all patients at initial diagnosis. 

Katherine Banwell:

Can genetic markers or mutations change over time? For example, if a patient relapses, should molecular testing be done again? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Yes, absolutely. Mutations can evolve. It’s something we call clonal evolution of the leukemia. 

And so you can have mutations that could be present at diagnosis that may no longer be present. Or the opposite can occur where you have new mutations that can appear. And that can lead to different options for treatment. So, it’s very important to retest at time of relapse. 

Katherine Banwell:

What advice do you have for patients who want to ensure that they’ve actually undergone molecular testing? What questions should they be asking their healthcare team? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

I think it’s definitely important to bring this up with the healthcare team. And it should be something at diagnosis and relapse to ask, what are the cytogenetics, what do they look like now, what do the gene mutations, and really as mentioned before, it’s so crucial in talking about prognosis, talking about treatment options that if it doesn’t come up, it’s really something that you should take a pause and try to go back to readdress with your team. 

Katherine Banwell:

I’d like to move on to treatment now, Dr. Mims. And, of course, treatment takes place in phases for AML. The first is induction therapy. Can you start by defining induction therapy for our audience? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, induction therapy is really terminology that we use to talk about initial therapy for someone with a new diagnosis. So, we can have intensive induction therapies, and non-intensive induction therapies. But the goal for either of those types of treatment is to get the leukemia into remission. 

So, to talk about that in a little bit more detail, for intensive induction regimens, those typically involve cytotoxic chemotherapy. So, you may hear terminology like, “7 + 3 induction,” or “high-dose cytarabine regimens,” but those are typically more intensive regimens that we use that can have increased side effects but may be very important based off the type of acute leukemia. 

And then for non-intensive based regimens, one of the standards has really evolved to be venetoclax (Venclexta) and azacitidine (Vidaza) as a non-intensive regimen that can work very well for a majority of patients. And there are some off shoots of that as well. 

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. And when does stem cell transplant come into play? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, stem cell transplant is something that we all think about at the beginning for anyone with a new diagnosis of acute myeloid leukemia where as we’re working to get back genomic information about the individual’s acute leukemia, we may go ahead and start looking for different donors, doing typing, just in case that’s something that we need as far as someone’s therapy. 

But typically we reserve stem cell transplant for patients who have either intermediate or high-risk features of their AML. Or who may have even favorable respite are not responding as well as we would like when looking at the depth of remission. And so, we always want  to be prepared in case that’s something we need to move forward with as part of their care, if the goal of their treatment is for curative intent. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk about what happens after the initial phase of treatment. What’s the purpose of consolidation therapy? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, there are a few different purposes we can use consolidation therapy for. So, for patients – consolidation therapy is used for patients who have achieved remission. And then it’s either to try to hopefully get them cure of their AML. The patients have more favorable risk features of their AML and cure is an option through just chemotherapy alone. 

Or it can be used to try to keep people in remission while we’re working to get towards stem cell transplant as that can sometimes take a few months to get a donor ready, have things ready to move forward with transplant. 

Katherine Banwell:

And what are the options for consolidation therapy?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, options for consolidated chemotherapy are typically based off of what you had initially for induction chemotherapy. So, if it’s more intensive-based regimens, it typically is consolidation with intensive consolidation, cytarabine based regimens.  

For lower intensity regimens, typically consolidation is more continuing therapy on what you started but may have adjustments of the treatment based off of trying to decrease the toxicity now that the patients are in remission. 

Katherine Banwell:

And how are patients monitored in consolidation therapy? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, it definitely is based off of the individual’s type of consolidation chemotherapy or treatment. But most patients, if we feel like the treatment is going to lower blood counts, they have bloodwork twice a week, and we’re watching for things, for side effects for treatment, looking out for risk of infection, giving transfusion support, and then if something happens that we feel like we can’t support patients in an outpatient setting, then we’ll get them back into the hospital if they need to for care. 

Katherine Banwell:

What side effects are you looking for?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, most of the side effects with any of the treatments that we give are what we call myelosuppressives. So, it lowers the different types of blood counts.   

So, white blood cell count which increases risk of infection, red blood cells, so, side effects or symptoms from anemia. And then risk of bleeding from low platelet counts.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Maintenance therapy has become more common in other blood cancers particularly in multiple myeloma. Is there a role for maintenance therapy in AML? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

There actually is now, which is something that’s newer that has evolved for acute myeloma leukemia. So, in the context of intensive therapy, we now have oral azacitidine (Onureg), which is a little bit different than some of the IV formulations that we give.  

But for patients who receive intensive induction therapy, get into remission and may receive consolidation but are not able to go onto transplant if they have that immediate or higher risk features, there’s FDA approval for oral azacytidine, which has been shown to improve overall survival and keep people in those remissions for longer. 

More recently, specifically for patients who have a particular type of mutation called FLT3, if they also receive intensive induction therapy with a FLT3 inhibitor added onto that, then their quizartinib was just recently approved as a maintenance therapy for patients with that particular type of AML.  

Katherine Banwell:

Are there emerging AML therapies that patients should know about other than what you just mentioned? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, I think there are a lot of exciting treatments that are up and coming based off of many small molecule inhibitors that are being studied. 

One in particular I would mention that everyone’s very excited about is a class of agents called menin inhibitors.  

And so that’s an oral agent that has been shown to have responses for patients with relapse or refractory AML who have NMP-1 mutations or have something called KNT2A rearrangements. And seeing responses with just a single agent in the relapse refractory setting, it’s been really exciting. And so, I think we’re hopeful that that may become FDA-approved in the near future. And it’s also now being explored in combination with intensive chemotherapies as well as less intensive induction regimens. And so, maybe we can do a better job without brunt treatment by adding these therapies on. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s exciting news. When it comes to living and thriving with AML, Dr. Mims, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. 

Would you talk about how symptoms and side effects can impact life with AML?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, I think from my perspective, what we are always trying to do when we’re moving forward with a treatment plan is of course, get patients into remission, but the purpose of getting into remission is not just to achieve that, but for patients to have quality of life. And so, there needs to be continued dialogue between the patient and the treatment team about how you’re feeling during treatment. Because they’re definitely based off of therapy, different side effects, things that could be not necessarily due to active leukemia anymore. And so there may need to be dose adjustments and other things that we do to the regimens in order to make you feel as good as possible while continuing on treatment. 

Katherine Banwell:

Why is it so important for patients to speak up about any issues they may be having? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

I think it’s important because you’re your own best advocate. Being the patient, being the person who’s living with having this diagnosis and going through the treatment, myself, or other colleagues as physicians, we can have a sense of what may be going on based off of numbers. But we’re not truly going to know how you’re feeling unless you speak up and let us know. And there may be things we could do with supportive medications, dosing adjustments as mentioned, that could help in making you hopefully feel better and less side effects and toxicities from treatment. 

Katherine Banwell:

What are some common symptoms and side effects that you hear about?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Okay. Sure. So, different side effects that I would say that people can have, people can feel fatigued just from treatment in general. Some of our therapies can cause neuropathy, skin rashes, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea. And so, all of those are important along as mentioned with symptoms you may have from decreased blood counts that we do have interventions that we could implement to help the – make the therapy more tolerable. 

Katherine Banwell:

So, for the side effects like fatigue for example, what do you do about that? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, I think it depends on the level of fatigue. Of course, we don’t have – I wish we had a pill that could just make fatigue improve. But if it’s really that the treatment is deriving it, and it’s impeding your quality of life there are dose reductions or things we can do that may help with the level of fatigue you’re experiencing.  

Katherine Banwell:

And what about some of the other side effects. You mentioned diarrhea. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure.  

Katherine Banwell:

How is that handled? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Yeah. So, for issues from GI complications such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, we have really lots of choices for anti-nausea medicines and different combinations we can use or newer antiemetics that can help with that. And from a diarrhea perspective it depends on the treatment. But of course, we want to make sure first and foremost there’s no infection. And if not, then there are good antidiarrheals we could add on to the regiment to help with that as well. 

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. That’s great advice. Thank you. I want to make sure that we get to some of the audience questions. These were sent to us in advance of the program today. Let’s start with this one; Janet wants to know what factors enable a patient to achieve and continue in remission if they are not able to achieve stem cell transplant due to age restrictions.  

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, I think first and foremost, I think it’s very important that there — that patients are aware that there shouldn’t be just strict, stringent cutoffs of age as a requirement for stem cell transplant. And really, there’s a lot of research going on that we should take into account. Physiological age, and there’s ways to measure that just to be sure that stem cell transplant really is not an option. And for patients who stem cell transplant is not an option, I think as we talked about earlier, so there can still be really great treatments that can get patients into remission and ongoing therapies with dosing adjustments again to decrease toxicity and improve quality of life and thinking about things like maintenance therapy as appropriate. 

Katherine Banwell:

What are the age restrictions, and why are they there? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, sometimes you will hear age 75.

Really, no one above age 75 should move forward with transplant. And that’s based off of past data where they’ve explored transplant and seen increased toxicity. And from transplant in itself, increased side effects, increased risk of early mortality. And so, I do think it’s important to take the patient as a whole into consideration because again, you could have someone who’s 77 who may be running marathons, and in great shape, and not a lot of other healthcare issues, who may still do really well with treatment. And so, I think that’s – really needs to be taken in account, really the overall picture of health for the patient before making… 

Katherine Banwell:

So, the… 

Dr. Alice Mims:

…just a firm cutoff. 

Katherine Banwell:

Right. Okay. So, it’s not cut and dry. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Exactly. 

Katherine Banwell:

If you’re 75 or older, then you definitely can’t have stem cell transplant. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

That’s correct. 

Katherine Banwell:

Then you’re looking at everyone individually. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Yeah. So, it really should be looked at.  

And I still have some patients who will come to me and say, “Oh, I was told I’m 68 years old, I’m not a candidate.” And that always makes me take a step back. And then we kind of have to have that discussion again. And they may still not be a good candidate based off of other comorbidities or healthcare issues, but it shouldn’t just be a number rules you out for having that as an option. 

Katherine Banwell:

Good to know. We received this question from Carl, “What does treatment look like following transplant? And what are doctors looking for when monitoring through blood tests?” 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, after transplant, the first three months is pretty intensive of being seen very frequently at your transplant center twice to once a week. You’re also on immunosuppressive medications to try to help prevent issues like graft vs host disease, which can be a complication from transplant. 

And then over time if you’re doing well, we try to start tapering off those immunosuppressive regimens to see if you can tolerate that. And what I say to most of my patients for – who are undergoing transplant, it can take some time to really feel back to being yourself. It can take six months, it can take a year or longer. And sometimes your normal is a new normal based off of how you do and the side effects of the transplant in itself. So, you may not go back to if you’re here before transplant and before your diagnosis, it may be that this is your new normal. Just so people can be prepared and know what they’re signing up for.  

Katherine Banwell:

And with the blood testing, what are you looking for when you’re monitoring a patient?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. There are a few different things that we’re looking for when monitoring patients. So, one, making sure that the stem cells or the graft from the donor are recovering. 

You want to see that blood counts, levels of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets are getting to normal levels. You’re also assessing and making sure you’re not seeing signs of relapse. You’re checking levels of donor cells versus the patient cells within the stem cell — sorry, within the stem cell compartments. And so, we’re taking all of those into account as well as checking organ function and making sure there’s no signs of potential graft versus host disease as well. 

Katherine Banwell:

Katrina sent in this question; do you have any advice for dealing with a general oncologist who does not exactly follow my AML doctor’s recommendations? I see a local oncologist and an AML specialist guides my care. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

I think that’s a tough question. And so, I think I’ll answer that if – maybe two different ways. 

So, one, I think sometimes it’s hard when you’re the local community oncologist, and you’re there for the day-to-day care. And so there may need to be treatment adjustments and other things that you need to do in that moment or time to help make sure that toxicities are not too severe or are helping the patient as you’re seeing them day-to-day. And it may not be easy to involve the specialist right there in the moment. But I think if there are bigger issues as far as overall goals, overall communication, it should be that both are able to communicate well with each other. They should be able to communicate via email, via text message. That’s what I do with a lot of my community partners. And it’s always important that you as a patient feel confident in your care. And so, if that trust is not there that things are being followed, then it may be important to look and see if there’s another physician who you do feel comfortable with proceeding with your care with. 

Katherine Banwell:

And what do you tell patients when they’re not feeling comfortable with their care team or their oncologist or their general oncologist? What do you say to them to give them some confidence to find somebody else who they feel more comfortable with? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, I’ll just say from my perspective. So, if I’m seeing a patient and they may have questions, they may not feel comfortable, they may need more time. And I always think it’s important if you want a second opinion, whether it’s at a specialist level, whether it’s in a community oncology private setting, that should not be offensive to the physician.  

If that makes the patient feel more comfortable in what they’re doing with their care, that’s how they should move forward. And it should be what they feel like is best. If a physician takes that personally or is offended by it, I think that’s more of their problem as opposed to anything that you’re doing wrong.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Thank you for that. Ryan wants to know; I’m a year and a half post-transplant, how can you tell if the aches and pains in your joints are normal aging, host vs graft disease, the AML returning, or even something else? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, I think that’s also a difficult question to answer because it really is patient dependent. And so, I think if you’re having new joint aches or pains, it’s always important to reach out to your transplant team to make sure that – it could be any of the above.. 

And so you’re doing the appropriate workup with lab work, imaging, things that would be appropriate or seeing certain specialists. Maybe orthopedist if needed because it could be I’d say less likely leukemic relapse, but still want to be sure. But it could be definitely complications from GVHD or there’s some joint issues that can evolve post-transplant, especially for people who are on long-term immunosuppressant medications. Or it could be the normal effects of aging. So, it’s always good to have that reassurance. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk a little bit about mental health resources. Managing the worry associated with a diagnosis or concerns about relapse, or even various side effects can lead to emotional symptoms like anxiety and fear.  

Why is it important for people with AML to share how they’re feeling with their healthcare team? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

So, I think it’s very important because, one, all of those feelings are normal feelings. I think they’re sometimes that from going through such a rapid diagnosis and then having to start treatment pretty quickly and going through all the ups and downs with these types of diagnosis can really lead to for some patients PTSD-type symptoms. And then there are also things that can evolve over time where their anxiety or even survivorship guilt as you go if you move forward and are doing well where you may have some friends or people you met along the way who may not have had as good outcomes. And so, there are resources available based off of where you are.  

But for survivorship, oncology specific counseling to deal with some of these feelings that are understandable and normal for what patients have been through. 

Katherine Banwell:

Can a social worker help? And are there other people on the healthcare team who can support a patient’s emotional needs? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Oh, absolutely. So, I think it’s really place-dependent on where you are but yes, absolutely. Social workers are a great resource for patients. There may be other collaborative teams based off of where you’re receiving your treatment that may be available that are maybe patient support groups where you can go and be with other patients or Facebook, social media support groups. And I think all those can be very helpful. And I know at least at our center, we also have patient mentors who have been through and gotten through to the other side of transplant or whatnot who are great resources because they’ve lived and experienced it. 

And I think that’s just as a physician, I can talk about things that I don’t have that personal experience having lived through it. And I think that’s very important — 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. It’s a… 

Dr. Alice Mims:

…to be able to have somebody to talk to. Yeah. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. What about the financial aspect of treatments? There are many people who would find it difficult to find and maybe they don’t have insurance, or their insurance doesn’t cover a lot. How do you help patients who are dealing with financial restrictions?  

Dr. Alice Mims:

Sure. So, I think that we’re fortunate here because we have a lot of support staff to help patients with our financial counseling team. We also have people within the medication assistance programs who can help find foundation grants to help with medication support, travel support. 

I think for patients who may not have those things available at their individual center, The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society is a great place to reach out for.  

And there are other foundations as well who at least may have navigators to help patients figure out other resources or funding available. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Okay. That’s really good information, Dr. Mims. Thank you. And please continue to send in your questions to question@powerfulpatients.org and we’ll work to get them answered on future programs. Well, Dr. Mims as we close out our program, I wanted to get your thoughts on where we stand with progress in AML care. Are there advances in research treatment that you’re hopeful about? 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Yes. I would say from even when I finished fellowship 10 years ago, not to state my age, but we had essentially about three treatments at that time. 

Now in the past five years there have been I think maybe 11 different new drugs that have been approved for a acute myeloma leukemia. And so, I think we’re just on the precipice of really evolving to have individualized care. Hopefully have more curative options for patients. So, I’m really excited for the time we’re in right now where I even hope we’ll be in the next five years for patients. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s an encouraging message to leave the audience with, Dr. Mims. Thank you so much for joining us today. 

Dr. Alice Mims:

Thank you so much for letting me be here with you today. 

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about AML and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.