Tag Archive for: myeloproliferative neoplasm

Is Stem Cell Transplant the Only Curative Option for Myelofibrosis?

Is Stem Cell Transplant the Only Curative Option for Myelofibrosis? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Is there a cure for myelofibrosis? Dr. Lucia Masarova explains the role of stem cell transplant for the treatment of myelofibrosis and reviews additional therapies for patients who do not qualify for the procedure, such as JAK inhibitor therapy.

Dr. Lucia Masarova is an MPN Specialist and Assistant Professor in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Masarova.

See More from Evolve Myelofibrosis

Related Resources:

Myelofibrosis Therapies in Clinical Trials | BET Inhibitors

Myelofibrosis Therapies in Clinical Trials | BET Inhibitors

Choosing a Myelofibrosis Treatment Plan | Key Questions to Ask

Choosing a Myelofibrosis Treatment Plan | Key Questions to Ask

Myeloproliferative Neoplasm News and Research Updates

Myeloproliferative Neoplasm News and Research Updates

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Masarova, stem cell transplant is sometimes recommended for people with myelofibrosis. Is this still the closest option to cure for those patients? 

Dr. Lucia Masarova:

I would say so, as much as we don’t like it. We would like to develop novel conservative, less aggressive, that we call procedures or drugs. Stem cell transplants still represent a long-term cure for patients that are eligible. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about for patients who don’t qualify for stem cell transplant? What are effective long-term treatments for them? 

Dr. Lucia Masarova:

That’s a very, very important question and topic. The key point here is the long-term because long-term is a little difficult term in conservative management of myeloproliferative neoplasm, particularly when it comes to myelofibrosis.  

With the development of JAK inhibitors, the longest experiences we have with the first one called ruxolitinib or Jakafi, we have seen prolonged outcomes in survival so patients could live longer than expected before.  

However, it’s not forever. So, that’s why we are trying to develop novel strategies where I see a lot of roles of combinations of JAK inhibitors and other correlative compounds, such as bromodomains inhibitors or hypomethylating agents or others that would affect the pathways that we are missing currently to cover with the JAK inhibition. And that ultimately leads to medication failures and patients being refractory and then having a shortened lifespan.  

So, I’m hoping we will develop something for long-term. Particularly promising a very, very interesting concept is with the calreticulin where we are developing monoclonal antibodies or vaccines because we have seen and discovered calreticulin driver to be a targetable thing that causes immunogenicity. 

But I do really hope that we will move forward with these discoveries and the JAK mutate or other drivers causing myeloproliferative neoplasms to offer long-term management.  

Myelofibrosis Therapies in Clinical Trials | BET Inhibitors

Myelofibrosis Therapies in Clinical Trials | BET Inhibitors from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What are BET inhibitors? Dr. Lucia Masarova, an MPN specialist and researcher, explains what BET inhibitors are and discusses the role these therapies may play in the treatment of myelofibrosis.

Dr. Lucia Masarova is an MPN Specialist and Assistant Professor in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Masarova.

See More from Evolve Myelofibrosis

Related Resources:

Is Stem Cell Transplant the Only Curative Option for Myelofibrosis?

Is Stem Cell Transplant the Only Curative Option for Myelofibrosis?

Choosing a Myelofibrosis Treatment Plan | Key Questions to Ask

Choosing a Myelofibrosis Treatment Plan | Key Questions to Ask

How Molecular Markers Affect MPN Treatment | Advances in Research

How Molecular Markers Affect MPN Treatment | Advances in Research

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

We’re starting to hear more about BET inhibitors. Could you explain what they are and how they work to treat myelofibrosis? 

Dr. Lucia Masarova:

BET inhibitors are abbreviations for bromodomain inhibition, which is a very relevant regulator of transcription factors that play a significant role for making the blood cells.  

So, just differentiation of red cells or platelets, as well as very significant role in cytokines regulation. We know that myelofibrosis is a disease that is defined by overactive JAK-STAT Pathway that ultimately leads to increased cytokines.  

However, there are other pathways that play a significant role, and one of the very major ones is NF-kB, where the BET inhibitor come in play because they target it and help us to decrease the cytokine load as well as alter the differentiational block that happens in the red cells or megakaryocytes or platelets in these patients. 

So, the combination of bromodomain inhibition, or even using it as a single agent on or after refractory I think is a very promising tool that excludes the only JAK inhibition that we’ve been developing for diseases and opens the door for combination strategies that we were so many years thinking through and trying to find out. 

This is really the most promising compound or way of altering the disease background that we can see.  

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Is it possible to live well and thrive with a myeloproliferative neoplasm (MPN)? Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju, an MPN specialist and researcher, shares key advice for patients, stressing the importance of taking an active role in learning about their disease and communicating with their team to manage common symptoms and side effects. 

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju

 

Related Programs:

Thriving With an MPN: Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions

Thriving With an MPN | Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions 

Common MPN Symptoms | What Are They and How Are They Managed

Common MPN Symptoms: What Are They and How Are They Managed?

Common MPN Treatment Side Effects | Strategies for Management

Common MPN Treatment Side Effects |Strategies for Management


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, I really love that phrase so much because it’s meaningful to me.  

You know, you’re talking about something that resonates with me and my patients, which is not just living with the MPN, but you’re talking about thriving with an MPN. That’s so resonant to us. I think really, I would go for three parts to that.  

One is that it’s an acknowledgment or a complete understanding of the disease. So, not denial, the opposite of denial, whatever that is, Katherine. So, understanding as much as you can about the disease which is, I encourage people to Google, look up on the internet. I just, what I want you to do is couple that with talking about it in context with your provider. I think the worry that people have is you’re at your home midnight, you’re Googling stuff, it may or may not be right. So, anyway, so just do that, but then bring the information to the next visit. So, fully understanding and learning as much as you can in your own way. Number two is to be able to have a quality of life that is not just living with the disease, but actually being successful at your relationships, your work, whatever it is that brings you meaning and joy in life. And that sometimes has to do with the MPN paradigm, sometimes has to do with the other stuff we said.  

But I think, doing that, not despite the fact that you have the MPN, but acknowledging it with that, right? And then I think the third aspect is, if you have some way or some platform to be able to express yourself with the MPN because it’s such a rare disease, we think maybe only four out of 100,000 people worldwide get these. A lot of patients, not for everybody, by the way, but a lot of patients are thriving on support groups. 

It used to be you have to be in person, that’s very difficult to do with rare diseases. But now online, social media, a lot of different ways to get involved. Whether someone’s an introvert or an extrovert, whether someone wants to be private or public, all those things are hugely important, so it’s a personal decision. But for many, they want to get out there, and it’s not necessarily this scientific information exchange, although that’s good. But the support and encouragement and comradery of talking to other patients about what we’re talking about.  

It is, in fact, a little bit more facile to do it with the more common diseases, breast cancer, all of these things. And it’s much more difficult, social media online has opened that up. So, to me, I think that’s a kind of mix that I’ve been seeing in my patients. And that leads to empowerment. It leads to taking control of the things that can be controlled, leaving the things that can’t be controlled to what needs to happen. And then an understanding and anticipation of things that may happen in the next few visits, in the next few years. I think that’s how people can thrive with these MPNs.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, When it comes to living and thriving within an MPN, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. How can symptoms and side effects impact life with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Katherine, I’m glad you asked about that because I think before we get into the science and the pathobiology and all these complex things, it really starts with the patient. And as you and your team and others have really noted, the MPN for many of our patients, it is a chronic, often lifelong journey. And we really need to reemphasize in this modern era, the patient-centered experience and the caregiver experience.   

And so I would emphasize a few things. One is that our MPNs are oftentimes so-called invisible diseases to other people. So, this phrase that just really is tough for us to hear for our patients and our loved ones, “Oh, you don’t look like you’re sick. You don’t look like you have cancer.” So, it emphasizes the internal part of the internal medicine, that’s one.

Number two, it reminds you that you cannot tell on the external what kind of a war, a cytokine war that is going on inside of a patient. And so even though the blood counts are normal, the spleen is okay, the treatment paradigm is going okay, we don’t know what’s really going on. So, that’s why our great friend and colleague Ruben Mesa invented and pioneered the MPN symptom burden to really nail down what’s going on.  

And then third is our treatments, Katherine, our treatments, while overall halting or stopping or helping the MPN can then introduce a whole other round of toxicity, side effects, and so we need to manage that.  

So, both the disease itself and the treatments, two separate entities, and that’s what we need to be monitoring in the clinic.  

Advances in Research | Emerging MPN Therapies on the Horizon

Advances in Research | Emerging MPN Therapies on the Horizon from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

The pace of research in myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs) is advancing rapidly, but what do patients need to know? MPN specialist and researcher Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju shares an update on the latest research and his optimism for the future of MPN care.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

 

Related Programs:

Thriving With an MPN: Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions

Thriving With an MPN | Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions 

Understanding MPN Treatment Options _ What’s Available for MF, PV, and ET

Understanding MPN Treatment Options | What’s Available for MF, PV, and ET?

MPN Essential Testing | How Results Impact Care & Treatment Options

MPN Essential Testing | How Results Impact Care & Treatment Options


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, as a researcher, what are new and emerging therapies on the horizon in MPN care?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, Katherine, I’m glad you asked because I’m proud to tell you here, at the end of 2023, that we’ve now entered a new golden era of therapies for MPNs. Your group, and others, have led the way in advocating, but for so many years, honestly, we didn’t have many breakthroughs or new medicines. And now we literally have something we’re hearing about once a month. I think this golden era is divided into four buckets, Katherine, and that’s why I’m so excited for our patients and their caregivers. Number one is novel JAK inhibitors. So, beyond the approved ruxolitinib, fedratinib, and now pacritinib, we have a fourth one that’s under consideration, that’s called momelotinib.  Hopefully, we’ll have that approved by the end of the year. 

 [Editor’s Note: Momelotinib (Ojjaara) was approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) on Sept 15, 2023 for the treatment of intermediate- or high-risk myelofibrosis, in adults with anemia.] 

And there are actually other drugs around the world. So, not just in the U.S. and North America that are being developed as a further JAK inhibitor. So, just like we’ve seen in CML with the TKIs for BCR-ABL after the imatinib (Gleevec) medicine, hopefully, we have seven to 10 choices for our patients.  

Number two is the combinatorial approach of a JAK inhibitor plus something else. And that’s a field that I’m personally very involved in and helping to lead. The concept there is you take the known workhorse drug, the JAK inhibitor, use it as the backbone, and then add in the second agent. We started to do those studies in patients who were already starting to lose a response and we added in the second agent, those were called suboptimal studies. And then now we’re moving those drugs into the frontline setting in international global randomized studies. So, stay tuned, let’s see how those go.

But the concept is, can you take a new agent, whether it’s a BET inhibitor, a bromodomain inhibitor, a Bcl-xL inhibitor, PI3 Kinase, et cetera, and combine it with the JAK inhibitor? The third bucket that’s even more exciting to many people is that of novel agents standing alone by themselves. Now you’ve had either a JAK inhibitor or some other therapy for your myelofibrosis. That didn’t work for whatever reason. Now you’re looking for a completely new strategy.   

An explosion of research, not just in the lab, which we’ve had for the last 10 years, but over the last three or four years, amazingly, even despite the COVID pandemic. I would say dozens, really dozens of trials that are what you would consider beyond or non-JAK inhibitor therapy. Some of them include telomerase inhibition, with the imetelstat agent, for example.

And so the concept here is, can you now hit the myelofibrosis in a completely different pathway? And the answer clearly is yes. And those results have been tested now in the lower stages, the earlier stages, Phase I and II. And you’re starting to see those drugs enter into the phase two and phase three. We eagerly await those results if there can be a viable beyond JAK inhibitor. And then finally, if that wasn’t exciting enough, there’s a fourth bucket, which is thinking about specifically the anemia myelofibrosis. We’ve never really historically done that. We’ve had older drugs, danazol (Danocrine), steroids, growth factor shots, blood transfusions.  

But now here you see both pharmaceutical interest, as well as academic interest, in developing agents that either specifically target the anemia of MF or both, the MF and the anemia. And that could be a game changer for our patients in the next five years. So, Katherine, a wealth of exploding research that I’m personally very excited about that gives me and our field hope, momentum, and enthusiasm going into 2024.   

Essential Thrombocythemia Watch & Wait | What Patients Should Know

Essential Thrombocythemia Watch & Wait | What Patients Should Know from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What is watch and wait, and what does it mean for essential thrombocythemia (ET) patients? Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju defines this term, helps viewers to understand why it’s beneficial to wait before beginning treatment, and shares advice for managing the worry that can be associated with this time period.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju

 

Related Programs:

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients?

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN

Advances in Research | Emerging MPN Therapies on the Horizon

Advances in Research | Emerging MPN Therapies on the Horizon


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Stephanie writes, “I have ET, and I’m not being treated. Do you have advice for the watch-and-wait period? I’m anxious about the disease changing and don’t know what I’m waiting for.” So, before you answer the question, Dr. Pemmaraju, would you define this term, watch and wait?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

I will. And to Stephanie and everyone out there, this is a great question. I will say half the folks I talk to actually call it watch and worry, okay. Some people call it watch and wait, and as Stephanie’s saying, some people call it watch and worry.  

Yeah, the concept is threefold. One is that there are many cancers, many cancers, including blood cancers, that can be caught so early on that they don’t require treatment. A lot of patients with CLL, chronic lymphocytic leukemia, ET, as Stephanie mentioned, in the solid tumor. It’s very common to be diagnosed with a prostate cancer that’s low grade, early stage that can be observed. Number two is in ET, there is a science behind it.   

What we found in our studies, and they can be updated over time and you’ll see those, the traditional is that if you’re below the age of 60 and/or you’ve had no blood clot, thrombotic event, that’s considered low risk. And the treatment can be observation, perhaps adding in a baby aspirin to prevent against blood clots if there’s no contraindication. Now what’s magic about that age 60, obviously as you know, it’s not magic. It’s more of a statistical, continuous variable algorithm that says around that time, the risk of blood clots goes up.

And so then you’d consider cytoreductive therapy at that point. Now there’s exceptions to that. Many of our young patients are on therapy, but there’s usually some reason for that. Some high-risk feature, wildly uncontrolled blood counts, for example, symptom burden, some other high-risk features. So, it’s a suggestion. It’s a guideline, not an absolute. And then the third part of it is, the what do you do in that time? And that’s the frustrating thing. And I think that’s what Stephanie’s getting to.  

Again, that’s why I said the watch and worry versus watch and wait. Some of it is, how are you feeling outside of this? Some patients take it as a great news. Hey, you have this blood cancer, that’s not good news. But the good news is it’s probably not going to be active for a long time, we can, “just watch it.” But some people, as Stephanie is saying, take it the opposite way. What do you mean I got a blood cancer? I got something lurking in my body. You’re telling me it’s there, you know it’s there. And so what’s up with that? And the concept there is that some of these situations like low-risk ET, we found that if you treat too early, too aggressively, you can actually do harm.  

So, that’s the key. These chemo drugs are not benign as you had me discuss earlier. They have toxicity, side effects, short-term, long-term. So, it’s a risk-benefit thing. If the risk far outweighs the benefit, as in the younger patient with no symptoms, no high-risk features, observation is okay. But at some point, when it turns, that’s the threshold.  

So, really the key is, if we believe these are stem cell blood cancer disorders, we need to be thinking about and designing therapies with minimal to no toxicity. Something that actually modifies the disease early on and something that leads to long-term outcomes. And we don’t have that yet in ET. We’re working on that in PV and myelofibrosis. So, stay tuned for that.

And then finally, let me also add, this is an important point, not everybody gets it. This watch and wait versus watch and worry. So, I’m glad Stephanie brought that up because it’s not always good news, uniformly, when you tell someone, good news is you don’t have to do anything bad news, there’s something there. 

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients?

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What might an increase in myeloproliferative neoplasm (MPN) symptoms indicate? MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju discusses possible reasons for an increase in symptoms and shares advice for seeking care when experiencing common issues. 

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju

 

Related Programs:

Thriving With an MPN: Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions

Thriving With an MPN | Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions 

Are There Predictors That an MPN May Be Progressing

Are There Predictors That an MPN May Be Progressing? 

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

What might an increase in symptoms mean? Does it mean that the disease is progressing or that maybe it’s time to change therapies?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, possibly. So, with all this objective evidence, there are different buckets of disease progression. And some of them are objective and obvious, rising spleen, increasing blasts, or leukemia cells in the peripheral blood. The start of transfusion dependency for either anemia or platelets that weren’t there before. Sometimes, there are obvious things that you can point to, but there are a couple of scenarios where it’s not as obvious. You just named one. One is increasing symptom burden profile. You see, sometimes you have to think about, is it the sequela of the treatment itself or is it disease progression?  

I’ll give an example. If you start on an Interferon product and the dose is too high, you may be feeling not so great from the interferon. But maybe in that case, a simple dose reduction was the answer, because then you’re still getting the anti-disease activity, less side effects and all that. So, I’ll answer your question by saying possibly, but it can’t be the whole story. So, increasing symptoms is a harbinger, it’s a red flag.

In the clinic, it means pause. Workup, is this a subject of the treatment itself? Is it because the disease is progressing? Do we need to do a restaging and workup, whether that means a bone marrow biopsy, whatever that means? Or again, let’s put that other in there. What about the other comorbidities? Do you have class one heart failure, that’s now class three and you’re retaining fluid? And that’s why you’re short of breath and you actually need an echo and a cardiologist and an evaluation of your diuresis. So, I think that’s important, but the key is don’t blow it off, right? So, increasing symptom in MPN is telling you something isn’t right, and we need to check it out.   

Katherine Banwell:

Right, and for the patient, tell your healthcare team about it.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Communicate always. I think what we see is people are so proper and so compassionate and so kind and collegial, and that’s beautiful. But actually in the MPNs and all these rare blood cancers where so little is known and so little is obvious, communication is the key. 

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Fatigue related to myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs) can be overwhelming and may have an impact on other parts of your life. So, what can be done about it? MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju shares advice for understanding and managing this common symptom, including lifestyle choices that may be beneficial. 

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju

 

Related Programs:

Understanding MPN Treatment Options _ What’s Available for MF, PV, and ET

Understanding MPN Treatment Options | What’s Available for MF, PV, and ET?

MPN Essential Testing | How Results Impact Care & Treatment Options

MPN Essential Testing | How Results Impact Care & Treatment Options

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s obvious that there’s some symptom overlap along with this.  And so I’m wondering what the strategies are for managing these. Let’s start with fatigue first.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Let’s do that.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do you manage that?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

This is one of the tougher parts of what we do. I’m glad you’re pinning me down to say it, because really this is the majority of what we need to be talking about in the clinic. I’m going to just be honest, you know, with all the scientific breakthroughs and everything, some of these are limited. The fatigue, this is some of the strategies I use and some of the experts in the field. I think one is managing the underlying disease. So, as you mentioned, if you have high-risk, intermediate to high-risk myelofibrosis, one of the great findings of our field is the JAK inhibitor class generally helps to improve symptom burden.  

So, that is the splenomegaly, the fatigue, the pruritus. Maybe not so much the itching, but some of these other things. So, I think treating the underlying disease, that’s okay. Number two is many clinics, onc centers around the country are starting to open up a supportive care or fatigue center clinic. So, I am referring several of my patients there, we’re talking about diet, nutrition, exercise. We used to never talk about these things. Ruben Mesa has found that doing yoga and meditation can genuinely actually help the pathobiology to reduce the cytokine storm and improve the fatigue and quality of life. 

Dr. Angela Fleischman, our colleague at UC Irvine, has done work suggesting that possibly an antioxidant diet such as the Mediterranean diet can help the overall general fatigue, well-being, wellness. And then of course I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention here too, sometimes fatigue is outside of the MPN. Have you had your TSH or thyroid checked? What about your vitamin D levels? How are you doing on these PCP general checks? Things that may be contributing to the life and the happiness.

And finally, let me make a plug for mental health. I don’t know how much we were emphasizing before the COVID pandemic, but after, the last three or four years have been tough. Healthcare providers, caregivers, patients themselves, mental health checkup, that can also be contributing to fatigue, not getting out of bed, in addition to the organic medical problems. So, let me advocate a multifactorial approach, scientifically summed up as treating what you can with the underlying MPN, fine, treating the side effects and symptoms of the MPN, as you said. 

And then, other, which can be a huge bucket, particularly as we get older, to not forget about that. Again, checking the thyroid level. And then when you’re on these different treatments, you can personalize it. Interferon, obviously, has its own separate set of side effects and then of course the other agents. So, I think that may be the best way to approach it. Maybe a three-bucket approach. The MPN itself, and then the treatment itself, and then the other, something like that.  

Katherine Banwell:

And as you’ve mentioned, it’s all going to be personalized and individualized.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hugely.   

Katherine Banwell:

Right, because what’s going to work for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hear, hear, well said to that. You know, you think you make a great diagnosis in the clinic, someone’s having fatigue, they’re on therapy for your MPN. You check the TSH, it’s wildly abnormal. Okay, you refer them to endocrine. Six months later, the thyroid level is completely normal now on thyroid medicine. And yet, the fatigue, brain fog, everything is still not clear.  

The MPN is under good control. What gives? That’s the difficult part of these diseases. So, I really love what you said about the personalization and to keep looking and keep trying. 

Common MPN Symptoms | What Are They and How Are They Managed?

Common MPN Symptoms | What Are They and How Are They Managed? from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

Managing the symptoms associated with myelofibrosis (MF), polycythemia vera (PV), and essential thrombocythemia (ET) can be frustrating, which is why communication with one’s healthcare team is so important. Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju provides an overview of common symptoms and shares advice for management.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju

 

Related Programs:

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN

Expert Advice | Living and Thriving With an MPN

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients?


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

I’d like to move on to common MPN symptoms now. Let’s start with myelofibrosis. What are the symptoms associated with this particular MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Excellent question. So, for the myelofibrosis, generally thought to be our most advanced of the MPNs, can be low risk, intermediate to high risk. We’ll focus our comments here on intermediate to high risk, the more advanced MF. This is important because not only what I’m going to tell you is sort of a subjective list of symptoms, but because of the work of my great friend, Ruben Mesa, who pioneered the MPN symptom burden, we’ve actually been able to, as he and I say, quantify the unquantifiable.  

So, take subjective information and turn it into objective. For example, we know that among the three MPNs, PV, ET, and MF, that fatigue is by far the most common symptom that our patients report. It’s a fatigue that’s more than the general feeling tired at the end of the day. It’s sometimes a wiped-out fatigue. Some of our patients will have pruritus or itching. Many of our patients will have early satiety, which means getting full too early because either the spleen is too big, decreasing the appetite. Bone pain and neuropathy can happen in our MF patients. Brain fog and decreased concentration, huge issue among a lot of our patients. And finally, because of the low blood counts, if a myelofibrosis patient is anemic, they can have those issues. So, fatigue, shortness of breath, even chest pain and palpitations. If the platelets are too low, or too high for that matter, bleeding or clotting.  

So, the problem with myelofibrosis, it ranges the gamut from the low-risk patients, who can be treated maybe even as a PV or ET observation or not as advanced treatment paradigm, all the way to intermediate high risk where patients are cachectic, losing weight, not feeling well, drenching night sweats. And all of these can be captured on not only the scoring systems but also the symptom burden scales. And to be honest with you, this is the majority of what our patients are feeling outside of the blood counts and outside of the objective information. So much so to the point, Katherine, where a patient can present with these symptoms solely, without ever having a blood count or a bone marrow or anything, and then it leads to the work of it.  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating – what about symptoms for polycythemia vera?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so this is a great theme that you’ve got going here, which is know your body. If you know your body, then you’re able to tell what’s abnormal or normal. p. vera can be a bit more subtle.  

Oftentimes patients with p. vera can have a normal life expectancy and the longer term series in Europe show that it’s basically about the same life expectancy as the general population or slightly lower. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Patients with p.  vera can have an unbelievable symptom burden, either from the hyperviscosity of the hematocrit, the blood level being too high or the cytokine storm, that I mentioned, that makes people feel not well. So fatigue, brain fog, feelings of sluggishness, feeling too full, those are common in p. vera.  

The treatments are aimed at trying to make that better. So, phlebotomy to bring the hematocrit down below 45 can make you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, decrease the brain fog. If you’re using either the standard treatments of Hydrea or interferon, and then, of course, the baby aspirin to prevent clots, heart attacks, stroke. The newer agents in p. vera include the ropeginterferon that we mentioned earlier, clinical trials, such as the PTG-300 that I’m a part of, that try to really keep the blood levels normal all the time.   

And so hopefully help to improve the quality of life, decrease the chance of having a clot, and also hopefully try to make patients feel better from these aspects.   

Katherine Banwell:

What about essential thrombocythemia or ET? 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

ET, again, just like PV, you can have a lot of patients who are either incidentally diagnosed or not too much of a symptom burden. But again, here, the blood counts don’t tell the story. You can have “low risk ET” which is defined as less than 60 or no prior blood clots. So, you can be 43 years old, diagnosed with ET, your blood counts aren’t that high, but yet you’re still feeling overwhelming fatigue, itching. You’re seeing flashing things in your eyes called scotomas. You’re having small nerve or vascular issues called erythromelalgias. It’s a very elusive and difficult disease, particularly for our young patients. So, in ET, again, the same set of symptoms can happen. This fatigue, itching, the brain fog, concentration, bleeding, and or clotting.  

And so again, the goal of therapy is to mitigate those. If you’re young, a lot of patients are either observed or baby aspirin. If you’re older than 60 or have high risk features, then again, cytoreductive therapy. The other aspect I should mention is you can start out with one of these, and it transforms into the other. That’s called clinical or phenotypic shifts. You can start out as an ET, go to PV. You can start out as PV and go to myelofibrosis. You can start out as myelofibrosis and go to acute myeloid leukemia. So, that’s why follow-up, even over years, decades, is important, preferably with an expert team, because you never know when one of these things wants to transform. And then your side effect, or I should say your symptom profile therefore changes with that transformation. 

Common MPN Treatment Side Effects | Strategies for Management

Common MPN Treatment Side Effects | Strategies for Management from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

When starting treatment for myelofibrosis (MF), polycythemia vera (PV), or essential thrombocythemia (ET), what side effects might one expect? MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju provides an overview of MPN treatments, common issues patients may experience, and strategies for managing these side effects.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

 

Related Programs:

Common MPN Symptoms | What Are They and How Are They Managed

Common MPN Symptoms: What Are They and How Are They Managed?

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue

Expert Advice | Strategies for Managing MPN-Related Fatigue

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients

Increased MPN Symptoms | What Does It Mean for Patients?


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

What are the most common issues associated with the main MPN treatment classes? Let’s start with JAK inhibitors.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s exactly the way I think about it too. So, with our JAK inhibitors, we now have 10 years since the approval of the ruxolitinib  (Jakafi), the first in class. And now we have two more approved agents which are known as fedratinib (Inrebic) and pacritinib (Vonjo), and hopefully a fourth agent, momelotinib (Ojjaara), which is under regulatory review at this time.  

[Editor’s Note: Momelotinib (Ojjaara) was approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) on Sept 15, 2023 for the treatment of intermediate- or high-risk myelofibrosis, in adults with anemia.] 

So, we have a whole class of drugs. They have some similarities and then some differences, but in general, the JAK inhibitor class are well-tolerated drugs, but each of them has some side effects.  

I’d like to go through them just as a top-line overview. It’s very important. Number one for the ruxolitinib agent, the one that’s been around longest. This one is usually well-tolerated as we said, but you do have to look out for a few things. Non-melanoma skin cancers can be increased in some of our patients, so the importance of dermatology and skin evaluations. Some infections such as viral herpes, zoster, and shingles, so we need to be aware of that. And then weight gain, weight gain is something that we’re seeing more over time as we appreciate the drug, particularly as we move it into earlier lines of therapy, such as p. vera.

As I look at the other agents, the fedratinib already carries an FDA black box warning for an encephalopathy syndrome, thought to be Wernicke’s encephalopathy, which can affect the brain. But really an encephalopathy syndrome, which means we have to check thiamine levels and replace them and be aware of that. That’s vitamin B1 and also GI side effects with that agent. And then finally, the pacritinib agent has a few toxicity and side effects.  

Again, all these are on the package label insert, well-known. Some GI side effects, particularly in the first few months, including diarrhea, and we need to watch out for bleeding and these kinds of effects, especially in the opening days and weeks of the agent. So, again, JAK inhibitors, well-tolerated class, oral medicines, but can have some notable side effects that we have to follow together in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about interferon? What are some common side effects?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, great. So, the interferon class, which actually now is a class of drugs. We started out as let’s call it the regular interferon, which was multiple times a week dosing. Then the pegylated interferon, which went down to once a week. And then now we have the ropeginterferon (Besremi), which is the recently approved agent in p. vera, which is every two weeks spaced out to every month.  

So, as you said, in this class of drugs, what’s old is new again. These drugs have actually been around longer than the JAK inhibitors, interestingly. You do have to be mindful. These are a very serious set of drugs. We usually set aside a good amount of time to talk about the side effects, and they are many historically.  

The main ones include psychiatric neurological side effects. So, it can cause a depressed mood, change in the mood, even depression. Hugely important, so everyone needs to be aware of that, including the caregivers. It can cause autoimmune side effects, so such as thyroid, liver, these type of side effects. And then finally, of course, any of these interferons can cause a flu-like profile, you know, not feeling well, particularly in the beginning days. So, we usually try to mitigate it with lots of education to the patient, the caregiver, remind all members of the team.

If you can, maybe even start at a low dose and escalate up, which is what we’re trying to do in the clinic. And then really close monitoring for stuff that you can monitor, the thyroid, the liver, the mental side effects, as we said. Usually most of our patients over time, most of them do get used to the drug. So, there is some kind of an immune component to it, but you can have side effects at any time.  

I would say also, Katherine, that these later forms of the interferon continue to improve. And so we’re seeing either less and less side effects or at least better managed, better tolerated, more understanding of these. So, a great class of drugs. And I should also say that our colleagues around the world are starting to combine the two classes of drugs for patients with myelofibrosis. And so we need to be paying attention to those combinatorial approaches. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about Hydrea (hydroxyurea)?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so hydroxyurea, we also have to mention that.  

One of the workhorse medicines of our field. We use it in all the MPNs.  

Again, an older class of drugs such as the Interferons that have been around prior to the JAK inhibitors. Used in a variety of diseases, both benign and malignant, used in sickle cell anemia. Historically has been used in both blood and solid tumor cancers, but we use it very commonly in MPNs. Almost all of our viewers are familiar. Hydroxyurea is not a benign drug. It is a chemotherapeutic agent. You know, you have to handle it with care.  

And so it’s got a few side effects. It can cause some fatigue in some patients. One of the more notable classical side effects is an ulcer formation, either in the mouth area or in the lower extremities, such is in the feet, so, you know, grossly visible. It can cause some fever and not feeling well in some patients. I will say again, a lot of these drugs are generally well-tolerated. Most of our patients are 60, 70, 80, and older, but you can certainly have those side effects. A lot of these drugs, Katherine, can affect the skin.  

I did mention that earlier. So, ruxolitinib, even the interferons, hydrea, they can all cause skin lesions, maybe some of them associated with non-melanoma skin cancer, such as squamous cell and basal cell. So, one amazing part of the practice has been close association with our dermatology colleagues, not something I would have expected 10, 15 years ago. And that’s been a helpful part of the practice.  

So, I think it’s a point where I can emphasize that, in addition to having us as the MPN or blood cancer team, Katherine, the pandemic has reminded us the importance of primary care team as well. So, it’s really two teams, someone checking the cholesterol, cancer screenings, skin checkups, mammogram, PSAs. And then in coordination with your MPN team and then everyone working together, so colonoscopies, et cetera. So, just a plug there, especially the last three, four years where people have gotten behind to make sure that we’re keeping up with that part of the deal as well.   

Katherine Banwell:

With all the testing, yeah.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Exactly, right.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned a couple of treatment side effects and how they’re managed, but in general, across the board, are treatment side effects managed in the same way, in similar ways?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Now, that’s a great question. So, here I’ve given you this nice list, kind of academic version of the list, but boy, no, right. And all my patients and everyone out there knows that there’s some varied practices. You know, the varied practices are not only, as you say, across the country and across the world, but also even in our own clinics, patient to patient. The MPNs have humbled and taught us that one person’s MPN can be starkly different from the next, so on and so forth. So, I’m not just talking about the difference between PV, ET, myelofibrosis, and systemic mastocytosis. I’m talking about one person’s MF is completely different than the other. I think there are a couple of things I didn’t mention. So, pruritus, or itching is one of the great symptoms really. It’s not a side effect usually, but it’s a symptom of the MPN. There are some ways to treat that in the clinic.  

Fatigue really has no great way to treat it. Usually when you introduce one of the JAK inhibitors that can improve. On the side effects side, as we were mentioning, a lot of these are unsatisfying things. The flu-like symptoms of the interferon, the weight gain of the JAK inhibitor. So, I think what you’re saying is so correct, and let me admit it, I’m going to be the first to admit it, there’s not really a good standard playbook.  

But on the other hand, I think personalization. As we’ve always said, in our rare disease space, if you have a disease, it’s not rare to you. It’s what you have, it’s what your spouse is dealing with, your loved one, your mother with you. And so, I would advocate here that there’s a personalized playbook there. I would say that there are three guiding principles though. One is when you have side effects of a medicine, the first thing to do is let your healthcare provider team know. I know that sounds obvious, but here I am in the clinic and sometimes we don’t find out until later. And so some of that is because the patient says to themselves, let’s tough it out. Or they may not know, or they may not be able to, or it may not be easy to communicate with our healthcare teams.

Two is when you’re evaluating, every patient’s case is different. This is not specific advice, as you said, at the top of the hour here. But in a general sense, you really need to evaluate if the side effect is peculiar or particular to just that patient case, so idiosyncratic, unpredictable, notable. 

Or, is it a general expected sort of something that you thought could already happen and then go with it from there? And then finally, the concept of dose interruptions, dose reductions, treatment holidays, something very important. So, basically a lot of different ways you can go, but no standard or uniform playbook in our MPN field, as you and the team well knows. 

PODCAST: Thriving With an MPN | Managing Symptoms and Treatment Side Effects

 

In this podcast, MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju, discusses strategies for managing symptoms and treatment side effects for people living with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Pemmaraju also shares advice for communicating with your healthcare team and provides an update on the latest MPN treatment and research.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is a continuation of our Thrive Series and we’re going to discuss coping with MPN symptoms and managing treatment side effects. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju. Dr. Pemmaraju, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, thank you, Katherine and team. Just an honor to be here. 

I’m Naveen Pemmaraju, a professor of leukemia at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. And I also serve as one of our executive directors for the MD Anderson Cancer Network, and I specialize in MPNs and rare leukemia. So, happy to join you once again, Katherine.   

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today, taking time out of your schedule. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, when it comes to living and thriving within an MPN, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. How can symptoms and side effects impact life with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Katherine, I’m glad you asked about that because I think before we get into the science and the pathobiology and all these complex things, it really starts with the patient. And as you and your team and others have really noted, the MPN for many of our patients, it is a chronic, often lifelong journey. And we really need to reemphasize in this modern era, the patient-centered experience and the caregiver experience.  

And so I would emphasize a few things. One is that our MPNs are oftentimes so-called invisible diseases to other people. So, this phrase that just really is tough for us to hear for our patients and our loved ones, oh, you don’t look that you’re sick. You don’t look like you have cancer. So, it emphasizes the internal part of the internal medicine, that’s one. Number two, it reminds you that you cannot tell on the external what kind of a war, a cytokine war that is going on inside of a patient. And so even though the blood counts are normal, the spleen is okay, the treatment paradigm is going okay, we don’t know what’s really going on. So, that’s why our great friend and colleague Ruben Mesa invented and pioneered the MPN symptom burden to really nail down what’s going on.  

And then third is our treatments, Katherine, our treatments, while overall halting or stopping or helping the MPN can then introduce a whole other round of toxicity, side effects, and so we need to manage that.  

So, both the disease itself and the treatments, two separate entities, and that’s what we need to be monitoring in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right, well, thank you for that. As we get into the discussion, Dr. Pemmaraju, it’s important to note that some of the issues we’ll be talking about today are symptoms of the MPN, and others may be treatment-related side effects. So, let’s start with side effects. What are the most common issues associated with the main MPN treatment classes? Let’s start with JAK inhibitors.   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s exactly the way I think about it too. So, with our JAK inhibitors, we now have 10 years since the approval of the ruxolitinib, the first in class. And now we have two more approved agents which are known as fedratinib (Inrebic) and pacritinib (Vonjo), and hopefully a fourth agent, momelotinib, which is under regulatory review at this time.  

So, we have a whole class of drugs. They have some similarities and then some differences, but in general, the JAK inhibitor class are well-tolerated drugs, but each of them has some side effects.   

I’d like to go through them just as a top-line overview. It’s very important. Number one for the ruxolitinib agent, the one that’s been around longest. This one is usually well-tolerated as we said, but you do have to look out for a few things. Non-melanoma skin cancers can be increased in some of our patients, so the importance of dermatology and skin evaluations. Some infections such as viral herpes, zoster, and shingles, so we need to be aware of that. And then weight gain, weight gain is something that we’re seeing more over time as we appreciate the drug, particularly as we move it into earlier lines of therapy, such as p.- vera.

As I look at the other agents, the fedratinib already carries an FDA black box warning for an encephalopathy syndrome, thought to be Wernicke’s encephalopathy, which can affect the brain. But really an encephalopathy syndrome, which means we have to check thiamine levels and replace them and be aware of that. That’s vitamin B1 and also GI side effects with that agent. And then finally, the pacritinib agent has a few toxicity and side effects.  

Again, all these are on the package label insert, well-known. Some GI side effects, particularly in the first few months, including diarrhea, and we need to watch out for bleeding and these kinds of effects, especially in the opening days and weeks of the agent. So, again, JAK inhibitors, well-tolerated class, oral medicines, but can have some notable side effects that we have to follow together in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about interferon? What are some common side effects?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, great. So, the interferon class, which actually now is a class of drugs. We started out as let’s call it the regular Interferon, which was multiple times a week dosing. Then the Pegylated Interferon, which went down to once a week. And then now we have the ropeginterferon (Besremi), which is the recently approved agent in p. vera, which is every two weeks spaced out to every month.  

So, as you said, in this class of drugs, what’s old is new again. These drugs have actually been around longer than the JAK inhibitors, interestingly. You do have to be mindful. These are a very serious set of drugs. We usually set aside a good amount of time to talk about the side effects, and they are many historically.  

The main ones include psychiatric neurological side effects. So, it can cause a depressed mood, change in the mood, even depression. Hugely important, so everyone needs to be aware of that, including the caregivers. It can cause autoimmune side effects, so such as thyroid, liver, these type of side effects. And then finally, of course, any of these Interferons can cause a flu-like profile, you know, not feeling well, particularly in the beginning days.

So, we usually try to mitigate it with lots of education to the patient, the caregiver, remind all members of the team. If you can, maybe even start at a low dose and escalate up, which is what we’re trying to do in the clinic. And then really close monitoring for stuff that you can monitor, the thyroid, the liver, the mental side effects, as we said. Usually most of our patients over time, most of them do get used to the drug. So, there is some kind of an immune component to it, but you can have side effects at any time.  

I would say also, Katherine, that these later forms of the Interferon continue to improve. And so we’re seeing either less and less side effects or at least better managed, better tolerated, more understanding of these. So, a great class of drugs. And I should also say that our colleagues around the world are starting to combine the two classes of drugs for patients with myelofibrosis. And so we need to be paying attention to those combinatorial approaches. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about hydrea 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, right. Yeah, so hydroxyurea, we also have to mention that.  

One of the workhorse medicines of our field. We use it in all the MPNs.  

Again, an older class of drugs such as the Interferons that have been around prior to the JAK inhibitors. Used in a variety of diseases, both benign and malignant, used in sickle cell anemia. Historically has been used in both blood and solid tumor cancers, but we use it very commonly in MPNs. Almost all of our viewers are familiar. Hydroxyurea is not a benign drug. It is a chemotherapeutic agent. You know, you have to handle it with care.  

And so it’s got a few side effects. It can cause some fatigue in some patients. One of the more notable classical side effects is an ulcer formation, either in the mouth area or in the lower extremities, such is in the feet, so, you know, grossly visible. It can cause some fever and not feeling well in some patients. I will say again, a lot of these drugs are generally well tolerated. Most of our patients are 60, 70, 80, and older, but you can certainly have those side effects. A lot of these drugs, Katherine, can affect the skin.  

I did mention that earlier. So, ruxolitinib, even the interferons, hydrea, they can all cause skin lesions, maybe some of them associated with non-melanoma skin cancer, such as squamous cell and basal cell. So, one amazing part of the practice has been close association with our dermatology colleagues, not something I would have expected 10, 15 years ago. And that’s been a helpful part of the practice.   

So, I think it’s a point where I can emphasize that, in addition to having us as the MPN or blood cancer team, Katherine, the pandemic has reminded us the importance of primary care team as well. So, it’s really two teams, someone checking the cholesterol, cancer screenings, skin checkups, mammogram, PSAs. And then in coordination with your MPN team and then everyone working together, so colonoscopies, et cetera. So, just a plug there, especially the last three, four years where people have gotten behind to make sure that we’re keeping up with that part of the deal as well.  

Katherine Banwell:

With all the testing, yeah.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Exactly, right.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned a couple of treatment side effects and how they’re managed, but in general, across the board, are treatment side effects managed in the same way, in similar ways?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Now, that’s a great question. So, here I’ve given you this nice list, kind of academic version of the list, but boy, no, right. And all my patients and everyone out there knows that there’s some varied practices. You know, the varied practices are not only, as you say, across the country and across the world, but also even in our own clinics, patient to patient. The MPNs have humbled and taught us that one person’s MPN can be starkly different from the next, so on and so forth.

So, I’m not just talking about the difference between PV, ET, myelofibrosis, and systemic mastocytosis. I’m talking about one person’s MF is completely different than the other. I think there are a couple of things I didn’t mention. So, pruritus, or itching is one of the great symptoms really. It’s not a side effect usually, but it’s a symptom of the MPN. There are some ways to treat that in the clinic.  

Fatigue really has no great way to treat it. Usually when you introduce one of the JAK inhibitors that can improve. On the side effects side, as we were mentioning, a lot of these are unsatisfying things. The flu-like symptoms of the interferon, the weight gain of the JAK inhibitor. So, I think what you’re saying is so correct, and let me admit it, I’m going to be the first to admit it, there’s not really a good standard playbook.  

But on the other hand, I think personalization. As we’ve always said, in our rare disease space, if you have a disease, it’s not rare to you. It’s what you have, it’s what your spouse is dealing with, your loved one, your mother with you. And so, I would advocate here that there’s a personalized playbook there. I would say that there are three guiding principles though. One is when you have side effects of a medicine, the first thing to do is let your healthcare provider team know. I know that sounds obvious, but here I am in the clinic and sometimes we don’t find out until later.

And so some of that is because the patient says to themselves, let’s tough it out. Or they may not know, or they may not be able to, or it may not be easy to communicate with our healthcare teams. Two is when you’re evaluating, every patient’s case is different. This is not specific advice, as you said, at the top of the hour here. But in a general sense, you really need to evaluate if the side effect is peculiar or particular to just that patient case, so idiosyncratic, unpredictable, notable. 

Or, is it a general expected sort of something that you thought could already happen and then go with it from there? And then finally, the concept of dose interruptions, dose reductions, treatment holidays, something very important. So, basically a lot of different ways you can go, but no standard or uniform playbook in our MPN field, as you and the team well knows.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that Dr. Pemmaraju. I’d like to move on to common MPN symptoms now. Let’s start with myelofibrosis. What are the symptoms associated with this particular MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Excellent question. So, for the myelofibrosis, generally thought to be our most advanced of the MPNs, can be low risk, intermediate to high risk. We’ll focus our comments here on intermediate to high risk, the more advanced MF. This is important because not only what I’m going to tell you is sort of a subjective list of symptoms, but because of the work of my great friend, Ruben Mesa, who pioneered the MPN symptom burden, we’ve actually been able to, as he and I say, quantify the unquantifiable.  

So, take subjective information and turn it into objective. For example, we know that among the three MPNs, PV, ET, and MF, that fatigue is by far the most common symptom that our patients report. It’s a fatigue that’s more than the general feeling tired at the end of the day. It’s sometimes a wiped-out fatigue. Some of our patients will have pruritus or itching. Many of our patients will have early satiety, which means getting full too early because either the spleen is too big, decreasing the appetite. Bone pain and neuropathy can happen in our MF patients. Brain fog and decreased concentration, huge issue among a lot of our patients.

And finally, because of the low blood counts, if a myelofibrosis patient is anemic, they can have those issues. So, fatigue, shortness of breath, even chest pain and palpitations. If the platelets are too low, or too high for that matter, bleeding or clotting.  

So, the problem with myelofibrosis, it ranges the gamut from the low-risk patients, who can be treated maybe even as a PV or ET observation or not as advanced treatment paradigm, all the way to intermediate high risk where patients are cachectic, losing weight, not feeling well, drenching night sweats. And all of these can be captured on not only the scoring systems but also the symptom burden scales. And to be honest with you, this is the majority of what our patients are feeling outside of the blood counts and outside of the objective information. So much so to the point, Katherine, where a patient can present with these symptoms solely, without ever having a blood count or a bone marrow or anything, and then it leads to the work of it.   

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating. What about symptoms for polycythemia vera?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so this is a great theme that you’ve got going here, which is know your body. If you know your body, then you’re able to tell what’s abnormal or normal. p. vera can be a bit more subtle.  

Oftentimes patients with p. vera can have a normal life expectancy and the longer term series in Europe show that it’s basically about the same life expectancy as the general population or slightly lower. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Patients with p.  vera can have an unbelievable symptom burden, either from the hyperviscosity of the hematocrit, the blood level being too high or the cytokine storm, that I mentioned, that makes people feel not well. So fatigue, brain fog, feelings of sluggishness, feeling too full, those are common in p. vera.  

The treatments are aimed at trying to make that better. So, phlebotomy to bring the hematocrit down below 45 can make you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, decrease the brain fog. If you’re using either the standard treatments of hydrea or Interferon, and then, of course, the baby aspirin to prevent clots, heart attacks, stroke. The newer agents in p. vera include the ropeginterferon that we mentioned earlier, clinical trials, such as the PTG-300 that I’m a part of, that try to really keep the blood levels normal all the time.  

And so hopefully help to improve the quality of life, decrease the chance of having a clot, and also hopefully try to make patients feel better from these aspects.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about essential thrombocythemia or ET? 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

ET, again, just like PV, you can have a lot of patients who are either incidentally diagnosed or not too much of a symptom burden. But again, here, the blood counts don’t tell the story. You can have “low risk ET” which is defined as less than 60 or no prior blood clots. So, you can be 43 years old, diagnosed with ET, your blood counts aren’t that high, but yet you’re still feeling overwhelming fatigue, itching. You’re seeing flashing things in your eyes called scotomas. You’re having small nerve or vascular issues called erythromelalgias. It’s a very elusive and difficult disease, particularly for our young patients. So, in ET, again, the same set of symptoms can happen. This fatigue, itching, the brain fog, concentration, bleeding, and or clotting.  

And so again, the goal of therapy is to mitigate those. If you’re young, a lot of patients are either observed or baby aspirin. If you’re older than 60 or have high risk features, then again, cytoreductive therapy. The other aspect I should mention is you can start out with one of these and it transforms into the other. That’s called clinical or phenotypic shifts. You can start out as an ET, go to PV. You can start out as PV and go to myelofibrosis. You can start out as myelofibrosis and go to acute myeloid leukemia. So, that’s why follow-up, even over years, decades, is important, preferably with an expert team, because you never know when one of these things wants to transform. And then your side effect, or I should say your symptom profile therefore changes with that transformation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s obvious that there’s some symptom overlap along with this.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Right. 

Katherine Banwell:

And so I’m wondering what the strategies are for managing these. Let’s start with fatigue first.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Let’s do that.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do you manage that?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

This is one of the tougher parts of what we do. I’m glad you’re pinning me down to say it because really this is the majority of what we need to be talking about in the clinic. I’m going  to just be honest, you know, with all the scientific breakthroughs and everything, some of these are limited. The fatigue, this is some of the strategies I use and some of the experts in the field. I think one is managing the underlying disease. So, as you mentioned, if you have high-risk, intermediate to high-risk myelofibrosis, one of the great findings of our field is the JAK inhibitor class generally helps to improve symptom burden.  

So, that is the splenomegaly, the fatigue, the pruritus. Maybe not so much the itching, but some of these other things. So, I think treating the underlying disease, that’s okay. Number two is many clinics, Onc centers around the country are starting to open up a supportive care or fatigue center clinic. So, I am referring several of my patients there, we’re talking about diet, nutrition, exercise. We used to never talk about these things. Ruben Mesa has found that doing yoga and meditation can genuinely actually help the pathobiology to reduce the cytokine storm and improve the fatigue and quality of life. 

Dr. Angela Fleischman, our colleague at UC Irvine, has done work suggesting that possibly an antioxidant diet such as the Mediterranean diet can help the overall general fatigue, well-being, wellness. And then of course I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention here too, sometimes fatigue is outside of the MPN. Have you had your TSH or thyroid checked? What about your vitamin D levels? How are you doing on these PCP general checks? Things that may be contributing to the life and the happiness.

And finally, let me make a plug for mental health. I don’t know how much we were emphasizing before the COVID pandemic, but after, the last three or four years have been tough. Healthcare providers, caregivers, patients themselves, mental health checkup, that can also be contributing to fatigue, not getting out of bed, in addition to the organic medical problems. So, let me advocate a multifactorial approach, scientifically summed up as treating what you can with the underlying MPN, fine, treating the side effects and symptoms of the MPN, as you said. 

And then, other, which can be a huge bucket, particularly as we get older, to not forget about that. Again, checking the thyroid level. And then when you’re on these different treatments, you can personalize it. Interferon, obviously, has its own separate set of side effects and then of course the other agents. So, I think that may be the best way to approach it. Maybe a three-bucket approach. The MPN itself, and then the treatment itself, and then the other, something like that.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, yeah. And as you’ve mentioned, it’s all going to be personalized and individualized, because what’s going to work for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hear, hear, well said to that. You know, you think you make a great diagnosis in the clinic, someone’s having fatigue, they’re on therapy for your MPN. You check the TSH, it’s wildly abnormal. Okay, you refer them to endocrine. Six months later, the thyroid level is completely normal now on thyroid medicine. And yet, the fatigue, brain fog, everything is still not clear.  

The MPN is under good control. What gives? That’s the difficult part of these diseases. So, I really love what you said about the personalization and to keep looking and keep trying.   

Katherine Banwell:

What might an increase in symptoms mean? Does it mean that the disease is progressing or that maybe it’s time to change therapies?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, possibly. So, with all this objective evidence, there’s different buckets of disease progression. And some of them are objective and obvious, rising spleen, increasing blasts, or leukemia cells in the peripheral blood. The start of transfusion dependency for either anemia or platelets that weren’t there before. Sometimes, there are obvious things that you can point to, but there are a couple of scenarios where it’s not as obvious. You just named one. One is increasing symptom burden profile. You see, sometimes you have to think about, is it the sequela of the treatment itself or is it disease progression?  

I’ll give an example. If you start on an Interferon product and the dose is too high, you may be feeling not so great from the Interferon. But maybe in that case, a simple dose reduction was the answer because then you’re still getting the anti-disease activity, less side effects and all that. So, I’ll answer your question by saying possibly, but it can’t be the whole story. So, increasing symptoms is a harbinger, it’s a red flag. In the clinic, it means pause. Workup, is this a subject of the treatment itself? Is it because the disease is progressing? Do we need to do a restaging and workup, whether that means a bone marrow biopsy, whatever that means?

Or again, let’s put that other in there. What about the other comorbidities? Do you have class one heart failure, that’s now class three and you’re retaining fluid? And that’s why you’re short of breath and you actually need an echo and a cardiologist and an evaluation of your diuresis. So, I think that’s important, but the key is don’t blow it off, right? So, increasing symptom in MPN is telling you something isn’t right, and we need to check it out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right, and for the patient, tell your healthcare team about it.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Communicate always. I think what we see is people are so proper and so compassionate and so kind and collegial, and that’s beautiful. But actually in the MPNs and all these rare blood cancers where so little is known and so little is obvious, communication is the key.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’d like to make some time now to answer questions from the audience.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great. 

Katherine Banwell:

And here are a few we received prior to the program. Stephanie writes, I have ET and I’m not being treated. Do you have advice for the watch and wait period? I’m anxious about the disease changing and don’t know what I’m waiting for. So, before you answer the question, Dr. Pemmaraju, would you define this term, watch and wait?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

I will. And to Stephanie and everyone out there, this is a great question. I will say half the folks I talk to actually call it watch and worry, okay. Some people call it watch and wait, and as Stephanie’s saying, some people call it watch and worry.   

Yeah, the concept is threefold. One is that there are many cancers, many cancers, including blood cancers, that can be caught so early on that they don’t require treatment. A lot of patients with CLL, chronic lymphocytic leukemia, ET, as Stephanie mentioned, in the solid tumor. It’s very common to be diagnosed with a prostate cancer that’s low grade, early stage that can be observed. Number two is in ET, there is a science behind it.   

What we found in our studies, and they can be updated over time and you’ll see those, the traditional is that if you’re below the age of 60 and/or you’ve had no blood clot, thrombotic event, that’s considered low risk. And the treatment can be observation, perhaps adding in a baby aspirin to prevent against blood clots if there’s no contraindication. Now what’s magic about that age 60, obviously as you know, it’s not magic. It’s more of a statistical, continuous variable algorithm that says around that time, the risk of blood clots goes up. And so then you’d consider cytoreductive therapy at that point. Now there’s exceptions to that.

Many of our young patients are on therapy, but there’s usually some reason for that. Some high-risk feature, wildly uncontrolled blood counts, for example, symptom burden, some other high-risk features. So, it’s a suggestion. It’s a guideline, not an absolute. And then the third part of it is, the what do you do in that time? And that’s the frustrating thing. And I think that’s what Stephanie’s getting to.  

Again, that’s why I said the watch and worry versus watch and wait. Some of it is, how are you feeling outside of this? Some patients take it as a great news. Hey, you have this blood cancer, that’s not good news. But the good news is it’s probably not going to be active for a long time, we can, “just watch it.” But some people, as Stephanie is saying, take it the opposite way. What do you mean I got a blood cancer? I got something lurking in my body. You’re telling me it’s there, you know it’s there. And so what’s up with that? And the concept there is that some of these situations like low-risk ET, we found that if you treat too early, too aggressively, you can actually do harm.  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh. 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

So, that’s the key. These chemo drugs are not benign as you had me discuss earlier. They have toxicity, side effects, short-term, long-term. So, it’s a risk-benefit thing. If the risk far outweighs the benefit, as in the younger patient with no symptoms, no high-risk features, observation is okay. But at some point, when it turns, that’s the threshold.  

So, really the key is, if we believe these are stem cell blood cancer disorders, we need to be thinking about and designing therapies with minimal to no toxicity. Something that actually modifies the disease early on and something that leads to long-term outcomes. And we don’t have that yet in ET. We’re working on that in PV and myelofibrosis. So, stay tuned for that. And then finally, let me also add, this is an important point, not everybody gets it. This watch and wait versus watch and worry. So, I’m glad Stephanie brought that up because it’s not always good news, uniformly, when you tell someone, good news is you don’t have to do anything bad news, there’s something there.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. Jess wrote in with this question. I’ve been experiencing bone pain and neuropathy. Is there anything that can eliminate or reduce these symptoms?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great question, and it ties into our earlier question about the MPN symptom burden. On the original MPN-10 scale that Ruben and others pioneered, you will see both of those. You will see the bone pain, neuropathy.  

Now there’s been, you know, different narrowing down of these questionnaires and things, but in general, our patients do have these and that’s across the board. So, not only myelofibrosis but also our patients with PV and ET. These are among the most frustrating, I would say. Again, as you would expect, if you are advanced enough and you’re getting treatment, you hope that the treatment itself, whether it’s the Interferon or the JAK inhibitors or whatever you’re doing, clinical trial, hopes to alleviate those. But it doesn’t all the time.

Then the second issue is, these are likely the result of a cytokine storm or increased cytokines, these protein messengers that are abnormally high in our patients with MPNs. There’s varying unsatisfying things that people do. Sometimes we give antihistamines for people with bone pain. So that’s these over-the-counter sinus allergy medicines. Interestingly, the Claritins and the Zyrtecs, these type of medications, that can sometimes help in MPN bone pain. And then also for the neuropathy, these common neuropathy drugs that everybody knows, the gabapentins and all of these drugs are used frequently.  

There’s no doubt in my clinic and everybody else’s, but the varying levels of success. So, I think it speaks to the fact that these two are kind of from the MPN itself. And treating the underlying MPN is still usually your best strategy, using these, borrowing these medications, from the other aspects.

And then finally, my other plug here, which has kind of been a theme here, hopefully it resonates, and it doesn’t sound generic or unnecessary, is these things can sometimes be something else. Okay, bone pain and neuropathy can be something else. So, we do have cases of people having frequent falls, really serious stuff. In those cases, I refer those patients to a neurologist. Nerve conduction studies right, very advanced studies in the couple of cases that are so severe that it’s beyond thinking that it’s just due to the MPN.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, as a researcher, what are new and emerging therapies on the horizon in MPN care?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, Katherine, I’m glad you asked because I’m proud to tell you here, at the end of 2023, that we’ve now entered a new golden era of therapies for MPNs. Your group, and others, have led the way in advocating, but for so many years, honestly, we didn’t have many breakthroughs or new medicines. And now we literally have something we’re hearing about once a month. I think this golden era is divided into four buckets, Katherine, and that’s why I’m so excited for our patients and their caregivers.

Number one is novel JAK inhibitors. So, beyond the approved ruxolitinib, fedratinib, and now pacritinib, we have a fourth one that’s under consideration, that’s called momelotinib. Hopefully, we’ll have that approved by the end of the year. And there are actually other drugs around the world. So, not just in the U.S. and North America that are being developed as a further JAK inhibitor. So, just like we’ve seen in CML with the TKIs for BCR-ABL after the imatinib Gleevec medicine, hopefully, we have seven to 10 choices for our patients.  

Number two is the combinatorial approach of a JAK inhibitor plus something else. And that’s a field that I’m personally very involved in and helping to lead. The concept there is you take the known workhorse drug, the JAK inhibitor, use it as the backbone, and then add in the second agent. We started to do those studies in patients who were already starting to lose a response and we added in the second agent, those were called suboptimal studies.

And then now we’re moving those drugs into the frontline setting in international global randomized studies. So, stay tuned, let’s see how those go. But the concept is, can you take a new agent, whether it’s a BET inhibitor, a bromodomain inhibitor, a Bcl-xL inhibitor, PI3 Kinase, et cetera, and combine it with the JAK inhibitor? The third bucket that’s even more exciting to many people is that of novel agents standing alone by themselves. Now you’ve had either a JAK inhibitor or some other therapy for your myelofibrosis. That didn’t work for whatever reason. Now you’re looking for a completely new strategy.  

An explosion of research, not just in the lab, which we’ve had for the last 10 years, but over the last three or four years, amazingly, even despite the COVID pandemic. I would say dozens, really dozens of trials that are what you would consider beyond or non-JAK inhibitor therapy. Some of them include telomerase inhibition, with the imetelstat agent, for example. And so the concept here is, can you now hit the myelofibrosis in a completely different pathway?

And the answer clearly is yes. And those results have been tested now in the lower stages, the earlier stages, phase one and two. And you’re starting to see those drugs enter into the phase two and phase three. We eagerly await those results if there can be a viable beyond JAK inhibitor. And then finally, if that wasn’t exciting enough, there’s a fourth bucket, which is thinking about specifically the anemia myelofibrosis. We’ve never really historically done that. We’ve had older drugs, danazol, steroids, growth factor shots, blood transfusions.  

But now here you see both pharmaceutical interest, as well as academic interest, in developing agents that either specifically target the anemia of MF or both, the MF and the anemia. And that could be a game changer for our patients in the next five years. So, Katherine, a wealth of exploding research that I’m personally very excited about that gives me and our field hope, momentum, and enthusiasm going into 2024.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to end with a question that we usually start within our Thrive Series. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, I really love that phrase so much because it’s meaningful to me.  

You know, you’re talking about something that resonates with me and my patients, which is not just living with the MPN, but you’re talking about thriving with an MPN. That’s so resonant to us. I think really, I would go for three parts to that.  

One is that it’s an acknowledgment or a complete understanding of the disease. So, not denial, the opposite of denial, whatever that is, Katherine. So, understanding as much as you can about the disease which is, I encourage people to Google, look up on the internet. I just, what I want you to do is couple that with talking about it in context with your provider. I think the worry that people have is you’re at your home midnight, you’re Googling stuff, it may or may not be right.

So, anyway, so just do that, but then bring the information to the next visit. So, fully understanding and learning as much as you can in your own way. Number two is to be able to have a quality of life that is not just living with the disease, but actually being successful at your relationships, your work, whatever it is that brings you meaning and joy in life. And that sometimes has to do with the MPN paradigm, sometimes has to do with the other stuff we said.  

But I think, doing that, not despite the fact that you have the MPN, but acknowledging it with that, right? And then I think the third aspect is, if you have some way or some platform to be able to express yourself with the MPN because it’s such a rare disease, we think maybe only four out of 100,000 people worldwide get these. A lot of patients, not for everybody, by the way, but a lot of patients are thriving on support groups. 

It used to be you have to be in person, that’s very difficult to do with rare diseases. But now online, social media, a lot of different ways to get involved. Whether someone’s an introvert or an extrovert, whether someone wants to be private or public, all those things are hugely important, so it’s a personal decision. But for many, they want to get out there, and it’s not necessarily this scientific information exchange, although that’s good. But the support and encouragement and comradery of talking to other patients about what we’re talking about.  

It is, in fact, a little bit more facile to do it with the more common diseases, breast cancer, all of these things. And it’s much more difficult, social media online has opened that up. So, to me, I think that’s a kind of mix that I’ve been seeing in my patients. And that leads to empowerment. It leads to taking control of the things that can be controlled, leaving the things that can’t be controlled to what needs to happen. And then an understanding and anticipation of things that may happen in the next few visits, in the next few years. I think that’s how people can thrive with these MPNs. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. And that’s a hopeful message to leave our audience with Dr. Pemmaraju. Thank you so much for joining us today.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, thank you, Katherine, and hats off to you and the team for not only keeping the advocacy and information going but during this pandemic time, becoming an essential source of information for our patients and getting the word out there. So, thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, thank you. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.  

Thriving With an MPN | Managing Symptoms and Treatment Side Effects

Thriving With an MPN | Managing Symptoms and Treatment Side Effects from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

In this webinar, MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju, discusses strategies for managing symptoms and treatment side effects for people living with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Pemmaraju also shares advice for communicating with your healthcare team and provides an update on the latest MPN treatment and research.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

 

Related Programs:

Are There Predictors That an MPN May Be Progressing

Are There Predictors That an MPN May Be Progressing?

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects

Understanding and Managing Common MPN Symptoms and Side Effects

Thriving With an MPN: Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions

Thriving With an MPN | Advice for Setting Goals and Making Treatment Decisions


Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is a continuation of our Thrive Series and we’re going to discuss coping with MPN symptoms and managing treatment side effects. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju. Dr. Pemmaraju, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, thank you, Katherine and team. Just an honor to be here. 

I’m Naveen Pemmaraju, a professor of leukemia at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. And I also serve as one of our executive directors for the MD Anderson Cancer Network, and I specialize in MPNs and rare leukemia. So, happy to join you once again, Katherine.   

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today, taking time out of your schedule. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, when it comes to living and thriving within an MPN, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. How can symptoms and side effects impact life with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Katherine, I’m glad you asked about that because I think before we get into the science and the pathobiology and all these complex things, it really starts with the patient. And as you and your team and others have really noted, the MPN for many of our patients, it is a chronic, often lifelong journey. And we really need to reemphasize in this modern era, the patient-centered experience and the caregiver experience.  

And so I would emphasize a few things. One is that our MPNs are oftentimes so-called invisible diseases to other people. So, this phrase that just really is tough for us to hear for our patients and our loved ones, oh, you don’t look that you’re sick. You don’t look like you have cancer. So, it emphasizes the internal part of the internal medicine, that’s one. Number two, it reminds you that you cannot tell on the external what kind of a war, a cytokine war that is going on inside of a patient. And so even though the blood counts are normal, the spleen is okay, the treatment paradigm is going okay, we don’t know what’s really going on. So, that’s why our great friend and colleague Ruben Mesa invented and pioneered the MPN symptom burden to really nail down what’s going on.  

And then third is our treatments, Katherine, our treatments, while overall halting or stopping or helping the MPN can then introduce a whole other round of toxicity, side effects, and so we need to manage that.  

So, both the disease itself and the treatments, two separate entities, and that’s what we need to be monitoring in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right, well, thank you for that. As we get into the discussion, Dr. Pemmaraju, it’s important to note that some of the issues we’ll be talking about today are symptoms of the MPN, and others may be treatment-related side effects. So, let’s start with side effects. What are the most common issues associated with the main MPN treatment classes? Let’s start with JAK inhibitors.   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s exactly the way I think about it too. So, with our JAK inhibitors, we now have 10 years since the approval of the ruxolitinib, the first in class. And now we have two more approved agents which are known as fedratinib (Inrebic) and pacritinib (Vonjo), and hopefully a fourth agent, momelotinib, which is under regulatory review at this time.  

[Editor’s Note: Momelotinib (Ojjaara) was approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) on Sept 15, 2023 for the treatment of intermediate- or high-risk myelofibrosis, in adults with anemia.]

So, we have a whole class of drugs. They have some similarities and then some differences, but in general, the JAK inhibitor class are well-tolerated drugs, but each of them has some side effects.   

I’d like to go through them just as a top-line overview. It’s very important. Number one for the ruxolitinib agent, the one that’s been around longest. This one is usually well-tolerated as we said, but you do have to look out for a few things. Non-melanoma skin cancers can be increased in some of our patients, so the importance of dermatology and skin evaluations. Some infections such as viral herpes, zoster, and shingles, so we need to be aware of that. And then weight gain, weight gain is something that we’re seeing more over time as we appreciate the drug, particularly as we move it into earlier lines of therapy, such as p.- vera.

As I look at the other agents, the fedratinib already carries an FDA black box warning for an encephalopathy syndrome, thought to be Wernicke’s encephalopathy, which can affect the brain. But really an encephalopathy syndrome, which means we have to check thiamine levels and replace them and be aware of that. That’s vitamin B1 and also GI side effects with that agent. And then finally, the pacritinib agent has a few toxicity and side effects.  

Again, all these are on the package label insert, well-known. Some GI side effects, particularly in the first few months, including diarrhea, and we need to watch out for bleeding and these kinds of effects, especially in the opening days and weeks of the agent. So, again, JAK inhibitors, well-tolerated class, oral medicines, but can have some notable side effects that we have to follow together in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about interferon? What are some common side effects?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, great. So, the interferon class, which actually now is a class of drugs. We started out as let’s call it the regular Interferon, which was multiple times a week dosing. Then the Pegylated Interferon, which went down to once a week. And then now we have the ropeginterferon (Besremi), which is the recently approved agent in p. vera, which is every two weeks spaced out to every month.  

So, as you said, in this class of drugs, what’s old is new again. These drugs have actually been around longer than the JAK inhibitors, interestingly. You do have to be mindful. These are a very serious set of drugs. We usually set aside a good amount of time to talk about the side effects, and they are many historically.  

The main ones include psychiatric neurological side effects. So, it can cause a depressed mood, change in the mood, even depression. Hugely important, so everyone needs to be aware of that, including the caregivers. It can cause autoimmune side effects, so such as thyroid, liver, these type of side effects. And then finally, of course, any of these Interferons can cause a flu-like profile, you know, not feeling well, particularly in the beginning days.

So, we usually try to mitigate it with lots of education to the patient, the caregiver, remind all members of the team. If you can, maybe even start at a low dose and escalate up, which is what we’re trying to do in the clinic. And then really close monitoring for stuff that you can monitor, the thyroid, the liver, the mental side effects, as we said. Usually most of our patients over time, most of them do get used to the drug. So, there is some kind of an immune component to it, but you can have side effects at any time.  

I would say also, Katherine, that these later forms of the Interferon continue to improve. And so we’re seeing either less and less side effects or at least better managed, better tolerated, more understanding of these. So, a great class of drugs. And I should also say that our colleagues around the world are starting to combine the two classes of drugs for patients with myelofibrosis. And so we need to be paying attention to those combinatorial approaches. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about hydrea 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, right. Yeah, so hydroxyurea, we also have to mention that.  

One of the workhorse medicines of our field. We use it in all the MPNs.  

Again, an older class of drugs such as the Interferons that have been around prior to the JAK inhibitors. Used in a variety of diseases, both benign and malignant, used in sickle cell anemia. Historically has been used in both blood and solid tumor cancers, but we use it very commonly in MPNs. Almost all of our viewers are familiar. Hydroxyurea is not a benign drug. It is a chemotherapeutic agent. You know, you have to handle it with care.  

And so it’s got a few side effects. It can cause some fatigue in some patients. One of the more notable classical side effects is an ulcer formation, either in the mouth area or in the lower extremities, such is in the feet, so, you know, grossly visible. It can cause some fever and not feeling well in some patients. I will say again, a lot of these drugs are generally well tolerated. Most of our patients are 60, 70, 80, and older, but you can certainly have those side effects. A lot of these drugs, Katherine, can affect the skin.  

I did mention that earlier. So, ruxolitinib, even the interferons, hydrea, they can all cause skin lesions, maybe some of them associated with non-melanoma skin cancer, such as squamous cell and basal cell. So, one amazing part of the practice has been close association with our dermatology colleagues, not something I would have expected 10, 15 years ago. And that’s been a helpful part of the practice.   

So, I think it’s a point where I can emphasize that, in addition to having us as the MPN or blood cancer team, Katherine, the pandemic has reminded us the importance of primary care team as well. So, it’s really two teams, someone checking the cholesterol, cancer screenings, skin checkups, mammogram, PSAs. And then in coordination with your MPN team and then everyone working together, so colonoscopies, et cetera. So, just a plug there, especially the last three, four years where people have gotten behind to make sure that we’re keeping up with that part of the deal as well.  

Katherine Banwell:

With all the testing, yeah.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Exactly, right.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned a couple of treatment side effects and how they’re managed, but in general, across the board, are treatment side effects managed in the same way, in similar ways?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Now, that’s a great question. So, here I’ve given you this nice list, kind of academic version of the list, but boy, no, right. And all my patients and everyone out there knows that there’s some varied practices. You know, the varied practices are not only, as you say, across the country and across the world, but also even in our own clinics, patient to patient. The MPNs have humbled and taught us that one person’s MPN can be starkly different from the next, so on and so forth.

So, I’m not just talking about the difference between PV, ET, myelofibrosis, and systemic mastocytosis. I’m talking about one person’s MF is completely different than the other. I think there are a couple of things I didn’t mention. So, pruritus, or itching is one of the great symptoms really. It’s not a side effect usually, but it’s a symptom of the MPN. There are some ways to treat that in the clinic.  

Fatigue really has no great way to treat it. Usually when you introduce one of the JAK inhibitors that can improve. On the side effects side, as we were mentioning, a lot of these are unsatisfying things. The flu-like symptoms of the interferon, the weight gain of the JAK inhibitor. So, I think what you’re saying is so correct, and let me admit it, I’m going to be the first to admit it, there’s not really a good standard playbook.  

But on the other hand, I think personalization. As we’ve always said, in our rare disease space, if you have a disease, it’s not rare to you. It’s what you have, it’s what your spouse is dealing with, your loved one, your mother with you. And so, I would advocate here that there’s a personalized playbook there. I would say that there are three guiding principles though. One is when you have side effects of a medicine, the first thing to do is let your healthcare provider team know. I know that sounds obvious, but here I am in the clinic and sometimes we don’t find out until later.

And so some of that is because the patient says to themselves, let’s tough it out. Or they may not know, or they may not be able to, or it may not be easy to communicate with our healthcare teams. Two is when you’re evaluating, every patient’s case is different. This is not specific advice, as you said, at the top of the hour here. But in a general sense, you really need to evaluate if the side effect is peculiar or particular to just that patient case, so idiosyncratic, unpredictable, notable. 

Or, is it a general expected sort of something that you thought could already happen and then go with it from there? And then finally, the concept of dose interruptions, dose reductions, treatment holidays, something very important. So, basically a lot of different ways you can go, but no standard or uniform playbook in our MPN field, as you and the team well knows.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that Dr. Pemmaraju. I’d like to move on to common MPN symptoms now. Let’s start with myelofibrosis. What are the symptoms associated with this particular MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Excellent question. So, for the myelofibrosis, generally thought to be our most advanced of the MPNs, can be low risk, intermediate to high risk. We’ll focus our comments here on intermediate to high risk, the more advanced MF. This is important because not only what I’m going to tell you is sort of a subjective list of symptoms, but because of the work of my great friend, Ruben Mesa, who pioneered the MPN symptom burden, we’ve actually been able to, as he and I say, quantify the unquantifiable.  

So, take subjective information and turn it into objective. For example, we know that among the three MPNs, PV, ET, and MF, that fatigue is by far the most common symptom that our patients report. It’s a fatigue that’s more than the general feeling tired at the end of the day. It’s sometimes a wiped-out fatigue. Some of our patients will have pruritus or itching. Many of our patients will have early satiety, which means getting full too early because either the spleen is too big, decreasing the appetite. Bone pain and neuropathy can happen in our MF patients. Brain fog and decreased concentration, huge issue among a lot of our patients.

And finally, because of the low blood counts, if a myelofibrosis patient is anemic, they can have those issues. So, fatigue, shortness of breath, even chest pain and palpitations. If the platelets are too low, or too high for that matter, bleeding or clotting.  

So, the problem with myelofibrosis, it ranges the gamut from the low-risk patients, who can be treated maybe even as a PV or ET observation or not as advanced treatment paradigm, all the way to intermediate high risk where patients are cachectic, losing weight, not feeling well, drenching night sweats. And all of these can be captured on not only the scoring systems but also the symptom burden scales. And to be honest with you, this is the majority of what our patients are feeling outside of the blood counts and outside of the objective information. So much so to the point, Katherine, where a patient can present with these symptoms solely, without ever having a blood count or a bone marrow or anything, and then it leads to the work of it.   

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating. What about symptoms for polycythemia vera?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so this is a great theme that you’ve got going here, which is know your body. If you know your body, then you’re able to tell what’s abnormal or normal. p. vera can be a bit more subtle.  

Oftentimes patients with p. vera can have a normal life expectancy and the longer term series in Europe show that it’s basically about the same life expectancy as the general population or slightly lower. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Patients with p.  vera can have an unbelievable symptom burden, either from the hyperviscosity of the hematocrit, the blood level being too high or the cytokine storm, that I mentioned, that makes people feel not well. So fatigue, brain fog, feelings of sluggishness, feeling too full, those are common in p. vera.  

The treatments are aimed at trying to make that better. So, phlebotomy to bring the hematocrit down below 45 can make you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, decrease the brain fog. If you’re using either the standard treatments of hydrea or Interferon, and then, of course, the baby aspirin to prevent clots, heart attacks, stroke. The newer agents in p. vera include the ropeginterferon that we mentioned earlier, clinical trials, such as the PTG-300 that I’m a part of, that try to really keep the blood levels normal all the time.  

And so hopefully help to improve the quality of life, decrease the chance of having a clot, and also hopefully try to make patients feel better from these aspects.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about essential thrombocythemia or ET? 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

ET, again, just like PV, you can have a lot of patients who are either incidentally diagnosed or not too much of a symptom burden. But again, here, the blood counts don’t tell the story. You can have “low risk ET” which is defined as less than 60 or no prior blood clots. So, you can be 43 years old, diagnosed with ET, your blood counts aren’t that high, but yet you’re still feeling overwhelming fatigue, itching. You’re seeing flashing things in your eyes called scotomas. You’re having small nerve or vascular issues called erythromelalgias. It’s a very elusive and difficult disease, particularly for our young patients. So, in ET, again, the same set of symptoms can happen. This fatigue, itching, the brain fog, concentration, bleeding, and or clotting.  

And so again, the goal of therapy is to mitigate those. If you’re young, a lot of patients are either observed or baby aspirin. If you’re older than 60 or have high risk features, then again, cytoreductive therapy. The other aspect I should mention is you can start out with one of these and it transforms into the other. That’s called clinical or phenotypic shifts. You can start out as an ET, go to PV. You can start out as PV and go to myelofibrosis. You can start out as myelofibrosis and go to acute myeloid leukemia. So, that’s why follow-up, even over years, decades, is important, preferably with an expert team, because you never know when one of these things wants to transform. And then your side effect, or I should say your symptom profile therefore changes with that transformation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s obvious that there’s some symptom overlap along with this.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Right. 

Katherine Banwell:

And so I’m wondering what the strategies are for managing these. Let’s start with fatigue first.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Let’s do that.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do you manage that?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

This is one of the tougher parts of what we do. I’m glad you’re pinning me down to say it because really this is the majority of what we need to be talking about in the clinic. I’m going  to just be honest, you know, with all the scientific breakthroughs and everything, some of these are limited. The fatigue, this is some of the strategies I use and some of the experts in the field. I think one is managing the underlying disease. So, as you mentioned, if you have high-risk, intermediate to high-risk myelofibrosis, one of the great findings of our field is the JAK inhibitor class generally helps to improve symptom burden.  

So, that is the splenomegaly, the fatigue, the pruritus. Maybe not so much the itching, but some of these other things. So, I think treating the underlying disease, that’s okay. Number two is many clinics, Onc centers around the country are starting to open up a supportive care or fatigue center clinic. So, I am referring several of my patients there, we’re talking about diet, nutrition, exercise. We used to never talk about these things. Ruben Mesa has found that doing yoga and meditation can genuinely actually help the pathobiology to reduce the cytokine storm and improve the fatigue and quality of life. 

Dr. Angela Fleischman, our colleague at UC Irvine, has done work suggesting that possibly an antioxidant diet such as the Mediterranean diet can help the overall general fatigue, well-being, wellness. And then of course I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention here too, sometimes fatigue is outside of the MPN. Have you had your TSH or thyroid checked? What about your vitamin D levels? How are you doing on these PCP general checks? Things that may be contributing to the life and the happiness.

And finally, let me make a plug for mental health. I don’t know how much we were emphasizing before the COVID pandemic, but after, the last three or four years have been tough. Healthcare providers, caregivers, patients themselves, mental health checkup, that can also be contributing to fatigue, not getting out of bed, in addition to the organic medical problems. So, let me advocate a multifactorial approach, scientifically summed up as treating what you can with the underlying MPN, fine, treating the side effects and symptoms of the MPN, as you said. 

And then, other, which can be a huge bucket, particularly as we get older, to not forget about that. Again, checking the thyroid level. And then when you’re on these different treatments, you can personalize it. Interferon, obviously, has its own separate set of side effects and then of course the other agents. So, I think that may be the best way to approach it. Maybe a three-bucket approach. The MPN itself, and then the treatment itself, and then the other, something like that.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, yeah. And as you’ve mentioned, it’s all going to be personalized and individualized, because what’s going to work for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hear, hear, well said to that. You know, you think you make a great diagnosis in the clinic, someone’s having fatigue, they’re on therapy for your MPN. You check the TSH, it’s wildly abnormal. Okay, you refer them to endocrine. Six months later, the thyroid level is completely normal now on thyroid medicine. And yet, the fatigue, brain fog, everything is still not clear.  

The MPN is under good control. What gives? That’s the difficult part of these diseases. So, I really love what you said about the personalization and to keep looking and keep trying.   

Katherine Banwell:

What might an increase in symptoms mean? Does it mean that the disease is progressing or that maybe it’s time to change therapies?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, possibly. So, with all this objective evidence, there’s different buckets of disease progression. And some of them are objective and obvious, rising spleen, increasing blasts, or leukemia cells in the peripheral blood. The start of transfusion dependency for either anemia or platelets that weren’t there before. Sometimes, there are obvious things that you can point to, but there are a couple of scenarios where it’s not as obvious. You just named one. One is increasing symptom burden profile. You see, sometimes you have to think about, is it the sequela of the treatment itself or is it disease progression?  

I’ll give an example. If you start on an Interferon product and the dose is too high, you may be feeling not so great from the Interferon. But maybe in that case, a simple dose reduction was the answer because then you’re still getting the anti-disease activity, less side effects and all that. So, I’ll answer your question by saying possibly, but it can’t be the whole story. So, increasing symptoms is a harbinger, it’s a red flag. In the clinic, it means pause. Workup, is this a subject of the treatment itself? Is it because the disease is progressing? Do we need to do a restaging and workup, whether that means a bone marrow biopsy, whatever that means?

Or again, let’s put that other in there. What about the other comorbidities? Do you have class one heart failure, that’s now class three and you’re retaining fluid? And that’s why you’re short of breath and you actually need an echo and a cardiologist and an evaluation of your diuresis. So, I think that’s important, but the key is don’t blow it off, right? So, increasing symptom in MPN is telling you something isn’t right, and we need to check it out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right, and for the patient, tell your healthcare team about it.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Communicate always. I think what we see is people are so proper and so compassionate and so kind and collegial, and that’s beautiful. But actually in the MPNs and all these rare blood cancers where so little is known and so little is obvious, communication is the key.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’d like to make some time now to answer questions from the audience.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great. 

Katherine Banwell:

And here are a few we received prior to the program. Stephanie writes, I have ET and I’m not being treated. Do you have advice for the watch and wait period? I’m anxious about the disease changing and don’t know what I’m waiting for. So, before you answer the question, Dr. Pemmaraju, would you define this term, watch and wait?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

I will. And to Stephanie and everyone out there, this is a great question. I will say half the folks I talk to actually call it watch and worry, okay. Some people call it watch and wait, and as Stephanie’s saying, some people call it watch and worry.   

Yeah, the concept is threefold. One is that there are many cancers, many cancers, including blood cancers, that can be caught so early on that they don’t require treatment. A lot of patients with CLL, chronic lymphocytic leukemia, ET, as Stephanie mentioned, in the solid tumor. It’s very common to be diagnosed with a prostate cancer that’s low grade, early stage that can be observed. Number two is in ET, there is a science behind it.   

What we found in our studies, and they can be updated over time and you’ll see those, the traditional is that if you’re below the age of 60 and/or you’ve had no blood clot, thrombotic event, that’s considered low risk. And the treatment can be observation, perhaps adding in a baby aspirin to prevent against blood clots if there’s no contraindication. Now what’s magic about that age 60, obviously as you know, it’s not magic. It’s more of a statistical, continuous variable algorithm that says around that time, the risk of blood clots goes up. And so then you’d consider cytoreductive therapy at that point. Now there’s exceptions to that.

Many of our young patients are on therapy, but there’s usually some reason for that. Some high-risk feature, wildly uncontrolled blood counts, for example, symptom burden, some other high-risk features. So, it’s a suggestion. It’s a guideline, not an absolute. And then the third part of it is, the what do you do in that time? And that’s the frustrating thing. And I think that’s what Stephanie’s getting to.  

Again, that’s why I said the watch and worry versus watch and wait. Some of it is, how are you feeling outside of this? Some patients take it as a great news. Hey, you have this blood cancer, that’s not good news. But the good news is it’s probably not going to be active for a long time, we can, “just watch it.” But some people, as Stephanie is saying, take it the opposite way. What do you mean I got a blood cancer? I got something lurking in my body. You’re telling me it’s there, you know it’s there. And so what’s up with that? And the concept there is that some of these situations like low-risk ET, we found that if you treat too early, too aggressively, you can actually do harm.  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh. 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

So, that’s the key. These chemo drugs are not benign as you had me discuss earlier. They have toxicity, side effects, short-term, long-term. So, it’s a risk-benefit thing. If the risk far outweighs the benefit, as in the younger patient with no symptoms, no high-risk features, observation is okay. But at some point, when it turns, that’s the threshold.  

So, really the key is, if we believe these are stem cell blood cancer disorders, we need to be thinking about and designing therapies with minimal to no toxicity. Something that actually modifies the disease early on and something that leads to long-term outcomes. And we don’t have that yet in ET. We’re working on that in PV and myelofibrosis. So, stay tuned for that. And then finally, let me also add, this is an important point, not everybody gets it. This watch and wait versus watch and worry. So, I’m glad Stephanie brought that up because it’s not always good news, uniformly, when you tell someone, good news is you don’t have to do anything bad news, there’s something there.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. Jess wrote in with this question. I’ve been experiencing bone pain and neuropathy. Is there anything that can eliminate or reduce these symptoms?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great question, and it ties into our earlier question about the MPN symptom burden. On the original MPN-10 scale that Ruben and others pioneered, you will see both of those. You will see the bone pain, neuropathy.  

Now there’s been, you know, different narrowing down of these questionnaires and things, but in general, our patients do have these and that’s across the board. So, not only myelofibrosis but also our patients with PV and ET. These are among the most frustrating, I would say. Again, as you would expect, if you are advanced enough and you’re getting treatment, you hope that the treatment itself, whether it’s the Interferon or the JAK inhibitors or whatever you’re doing, clinical trial, hopes to alleviate those. But it doesn’t all the time.

Then the second issue is, these are likely the result of a cytokine storm or increased cytokines, these protein messengers that are abnormally high in our patients with MPNs. There’s varying unsatisfying things that people do. Sometimes we give antihistamines for people with bone pain. So that’s these over-the-counter sinus allergy medicines. Interestingly, the Claritins and the Zyrtecs, these type of medications, that can sometimes help in MPN bone pain. And then also for the neuropathy, these common neuropathy drugs that everybody knows, the gabapentins and all of these drugs are used frequently.  

There’s no doubt in my clinic and everybody else’s, but the varying levels of success. So, I think it speaks to the fact that these two are kind of from the MPN itself. And treating the underlying MPN is still usually your best strategy, using these, borrowing these medications, from the other aspects.

And then finally, my other plug here, which has kind of been a theme here, hopefully it resonates, and it doesn’t sound generic or unnecessary, is these things can sometimes be something else. Okay, bone pain and neuropathy can be something else. So, we do have cases of people having frequent falls, really serious stuff. In those cases, I refer those patients to a neurologist. Nerve conduction studies right, very advanced studies in the couple of cases that are so severe that it’s beyond thinking that it’s just due to the MPN.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, as a researcher, what are new and emerging therapies on the horizon in MPN care?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, Katherine, I’m glad you asked because I’m proud to tell you here, at the end of 2023, that we’ve now entered a new golden era of therapies for MPNs. Your group, and others, have led the way in advocating, but for so many years, honestly, we didn’t have many breakthroughs or new medicines. And now we literally have something we’re hearing about once a month. I think this golden era is divided into four buckets, Katherine, and that’s why I’m so excited for our patients and their caregivers.

Number one is novel JAK inhibitors. So, beyond the approved ruxolitinib, fedratinib, and now pacritinib, we have a fourth one that’s under consideration, that’s called momelotinib. Hopefully, we’ll have that approved by the end of the year. And there are actually other drugs around the world. So, not just in the U.S. and North America that are being developed as a further JAK inhibitor. So, just like we’ve seen in CML with the TKIs for BCR-ABL after the imatinib Gleevec medicine, hopefully, we have seven to 10 choices for our patients.  

Number two is the combinatorial approach of a JAK inhibitor plus something else. And that’s a field that I’m personally very involved in and helping to lead. The concept there is you take the known workhorse drug, the JAK inhibitor, use it as the backbone, and then add in the second agent. We started to do those studies in patients who were already starting to lose a response and we added in the second agent, those were called suboptimal studies.

And then now we’re moving those drugs into the frontline setting in international global randomized studies. So, stay tuned, let’s see how those go. But the concept is, can you take a new agent, whether it’s a BET inhibitor, a bromodomain inhibitor, a Bcl-xL inhibitor, PI3 Kinase, et cetera, and combine it with the JAK inhibitor? The third bucket that’s even more exciting to many people is that of novel agents standing alone by themselves. Now you’ve had either a JAK inhibitor or some other therapy for your myelofibrosis. That didn’t work for whatever reason. Now you’re looking for a completely new strategy.  

An explosion of research, not just in the lab, which we’ve had for the last 10 years, but over the last three or four years, amazingly, even despite the COVID pandemic. I would say dozens, really dozens of trials that are what you would consider beyond or non-JAK inhibitor therapy. Some of them include telomerase inhibition, with the imetelstat agent, for example. And so the concept here is, can you now hit the myelofibrosis in a completely different pathway?

And the answer clearly is yes. And those results have been tested now in the lower stages, the earlier stages, phase one and two. And you’re starting to see those drugs enter into the phase two and phase three. We eagerly await those results if there can be a viable beyond JAK inhibitor. And then finally, if that wasn’t exciting enough, there’s a fourth bucket, which is thinking about specifically the anemia myelofibrosis. We’ve never really historically done that. We’ve had older drugs, danazol, steroids, growth factor shots, blood transfusions.  

But now here you see both pharmaceutical interest, as well as academic interest, in developing agents that either specifically target the anemia of MF or both, the MF and the anemia. And that could be a game changer for our patients in the next five years. So, Katherine, a wealth of exploding research that I’m personally very excited about that gives me and our field hope, momentum, and enthusiasm going into 2024.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to end with a question that we usually start within our Thrive Series. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, I really love that phrase so much because it’s meaningful to me.  

You know, you’re talking about something that resonates with me and my patients, which is not just living with the MPN, but you’re talking about thriving with an MPN. That’s so resonant to us. I think really, I would go for three parts to that.  

One is that it’s an acknowledgment or a complete understanding of the disease. So, not denial, the opposite of denial, whatever that is, Katherine. So, understanding as much as you can about the disease which is, I encourage people to Google, look up on the internet. I just, what I want you to do is couple that with talking about it in context with your provider. I think the worry that people have is you’re at your home midnight, you’re Googling stuff, it may or may not be right.

So, anyway, so just do that, but then bring the information to the next visit. So, fully understanding and learning as much as you can in your own way. Number two is to be able to have a quality of life that is not just living with the disease, but actually being successful at your relationships, your work, whatever it is that brings you meaning and joy in life. And that sometimes has to do with the MPN paradigm, sometimes has to do with the other stuff we said.  

But I think, doing that, not despite the fact that you have the MPN, but acknowledging it with that, right? And then I think the third aspect is, if you have some way or some platform to be able to express yourself with the MPN because it’s such a rare disease, we think maybe only four out of 100,000 people worldwide get these. A lot of patients, not for everybody, by the way, but a lot of patients are thriving on support groups. 

It used to be you have to be in person, that’s very difficult to do with rare diseases. But now online, social media, a lot of different ways to get involved. Whether someone’s an introvert or an extrovert, whether someone wants to be private or public, all those things are hugely important, so it’s a personal decision. But for many, they want to get out there, and it’s not necessarily this scientific information exchange, although that’s good. But the support and encouragement and comradery of talking to other patients about what we’re talking about.  

It is, in fact, a little bit more facile to do it with the more common diseases, breast cancer, all of these things. And it’s much more difficult, social media online has opened that up. So, to me, I think that’s a kind of mix that I’ve been seeing in my patients. And that leads to empowerment. It leads to taking control of the things that can be controlled, leaving the things that can’t be controlled to what needs to happen. And then an understanding and anticipation of things that may happen in the next few visits, in the next few years. I think that’s how people can thrive with these MPNs. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. And that’s a hopeful message to leave our audience with Dr. Pemmaraju. Thank you so much for joining us today.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, thank you, Katherine, and hats off to you and the team for not only keeping the advocacy and information going but during this pandemic time, becoming an essential source of information for our patients and getting the word out there. So, thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, thank you. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.  

PODCAST: HCP Roundtable: Shared Decision-Making in Myeloproliferative Neoplasm (MPN) Care

 

What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care? How should fellow MPN specialists explain disease progression to patients and care partners? In this HCP-to-HCP roundtable discussion, experts Dr. Gabriela Hobbs and Natasha Johsnon share best practices for helping your MPN patients play an active role in managing their health.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia, and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital and is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. 

Natasha Johnson, is an Advanced Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for people living with MPNs with kindness, patience, and humanity. Natasha also speaks at conferences to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research, and treatment.

See More from Empowering MPN Providers to Empower Patients (EPEP)

Transcript:

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. My name is Dr. Nicole Rochester, I’m a pediatrician and the CEO of Your GPS Doc. This program is for providers who desire to empower their patients and families. In this Patient Empowerment Network program, we connect MPN expert voices to discuss enhancing physician-patient communication and shared decision-making in MPN care. Some of the topics we’re going to cover today include how to help your MPN patients play an active role in managing their care, healthcare provider recommended strategies for managing disease burden to minimize disease impact on MPN patients’ lives, the importance of advanced practice clinicians on the health care team of MPN patients, clinical trials and the importance of nurses addressing this topic with their patients and families, as well as cultural humility in action.

I’m thrilled to be joined by MPN experts, Dr. Gabriela  Hobbs, Director of the Adult Leukemia Services at Massachusetts General Hospital and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Hobbs leads multiple investigator-initiated clinical trials in MPN as well as non-interventional trials, assessing outcomes for patients with MPN.

I am also thrilled to be joined by Natasha Johnson, an Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for patients living with MPN. Ms. Johnson also works to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research and treatment. Thank you both for joining me for this important conversation.

Natasha Johnson:

So glad to be here. Thank you.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Thank you so much.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

So I’d like to start by talking about the MPN care team and best practices for shared decision-making. We hear a lot about shared decision-making in healthcare. I would say for some, it’s more of a buzzword than an actual practice. I’m sure that you all agree that it’s incredibly important and really a core for the type of care that we should provide patients and their families, so I’d love to hear from each of you about what does that actually mean? What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care. And we’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Great question. I think shared decision-making can take many different forms in many of our clinical encounters, and I think one of the luxuries that we have in myeloproliferative neoplasms is that a lot of the decision-making that we need to make doesn’t have to happen immediately, and we also have the luxury of really getting to know our patients over time. And so having that longitudinal relationship, I think really helps in shared decision-making, because I know who that patient is, I know what’s important to them, we get to know their families, and they’ve also gotten to know our care team throughout our relationship. But in general, when we do need to make a decision about treatment, using that foundation, I think is really what’s most important for shared decision-making.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Oftentimes, patients are the drivers of a lot of these decisions and they’ll bring up the questions, but, of course, every patient is a little bit different, and sometimes I need to be more on the side of bringing up the questions, etcetera. So I think knowing where your patient is emotionally, what’s important to them, what are their worries, is really important, so you can have a conversation where you’re not just speaking about the things that you as a provider think is important, but really also listening to where the patient is coming from, and so that you can make sure that you’re appeasing their anxieties and whatever decision you make is consistent with both what you think is medically important, but also with what’s really important for the patients. I think listening is really at the core there.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Love that you highlighted listening. I think that’s something that we often don’t do enough of in healthcare, so thank you for that, Dr. Hobbs. What about you, Ms. Johnson? What are your thoughts about shared decision making in MPN care? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yeah, I agree with everything Dr. Hobbs said. I really believe it’s just…it starts with conversations and taking the time, making sure that you have the patient, you have the caregiver, if they can’t be there in person, sometimes you’re calling them on the phone. If it’s through Zoom visit they’re joining, and the health care provider, and I think that we spend a ton of time educating them to make sure that they really understand this disease, the symptoms that go along with it, the treatments that go along with that, and once we have a good confidence that they understand everything, lead them into discussing what their goals of care are, and then we take all that information together, and we create a treatment plan specific to that patient, really aiming to improve their quality of life and overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, so both of you spoke about the importance of listening and of really understanding the goals of the patients and their care partners, their family members, understanding their values, but we know that in reality, when you’re in that examination room and when you have all the distractions and all the competing priorities and the limited time, which is the thing I hear about most, I think, when I’m talking to colleagues, sometimes it can be difficult to put this into practice. So what can you share with fellow providers, maybe some tips or tricks or strategies that in face of all of those known barriers, how can they help patients take a more active role in managing their MPN? And we’ll start with you this time, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

All right, so one thing I would say is that here’s why I really think there’s a benefit to seeing an MPN expert that is at a national cancer center, academic center. I do think there is some more time allotted to those visits, especially the consults and first appointments for the patient, and we kind of start this with my doctor and other providers of assessing how much does the patient even know to begin with? So that can direct us where to start. And then how deep do they want to go. You know sometimes we have patients that they want to get down to the nitty-gritty and know all the scientific details, and other ones are like, Just lay it out for me easy. So really like assessing that from the beginning and then…so then start educating. Just like I said before, what does the disease look like, the symptoms, the treatment, alleviating symptoms, explaining that this is only cured by transplant. I think that’s really important to discuss right up front, and if they start treatment, usually treatment is indefinite. Of course, it’s changed depending on things, but educating them, so spending that time and then providing resources.

So we do this a lot by…I write a lot of things down for my patients when I see them, I think visuals are really helpful, provide literature, I tell them what websites to visit. A lot of times, they just will Google their doctor, which is great because they can find them and listen to their own lectures, and they really learn a lot. So just guiding them to those resources. I do think it’s important, too, to give them something like the total symptom score form. Just having that visual of, these are what is common, and then they can think about that between visits, but I think all of those things really help to educate them and get them involved.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, thank you for that, Ms. Johnson. What about you, Dr. Hobbs? Do you have any additional strategies that really help to empower patients to manage their care? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I think everything that Ms. Johnson said was spot on, and I agree with everything that she said. A few additional things that I would add to that is reminding a patient that they don’t need to remember every single thing we talk about at every single encounter, this is an ongoing conversation and decision-making will happen over time, especially when we’re trying to make more difficult decisions about when or if they have to go to transplant, for example. Sometimes I have a conversation with my patients for years before they actually get a transplant. Other things that I think are helpful strategies is reminding patients that they can be in touch.

Nowadays, we have so many different ways of keeping in touch with our patients, they know how to call our practice nurses in our clinic, how to get in touch with the nurse practitioner that I work with the most, how to get in touch with me through the patient portal. And so, knowing that when that visit finishes, which sometimes does feel short, even if…like Ms. Johnson said, we do have the luxury of time more in academic centers, they’re still…the patients will invariably get out of the room, get in their car and be like, “Oh, I forgot to ask that one question.” And so reminding them that they can get in touch, and then helping them to prepare for their next visits to make the most out of those visits, especially for some of those patients that maybe don’t always necessarily come back to see me.

There are some patients that live far away, and then they maybe see me infrequently, talking to them about the symptom assessment form, like Ms. Johnson said, pointing them to the right direction in terms of literature and reminding them that, especially for those patients that are very symptomatic, for example, keeping track of their symptoms over time, writing down notes about how they felt, what they think made something better, made something worse, how they’re responding to these medications, questions that they may have, and writing all of that down helps them be more empowered patients. They can advocate for themselves in a more organized way when they do go see either me or another clinician. So they come in fully prepared with the information and the questions that they want to get out of that visit.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Perfect, thank you both. That’s really important. And so this leads nicely into our next topic, both of you have mentioned the importance of tracking symptoms, and so we want to shift and talk about strategies for managing disease burden, and I’d love to hear from each of you about what are your recommendations as you speak to MPN patients and their care partners about symptoms? How should other providers bring up those conversations and what are the best ways to really elucidate the symptoms that patients with MPN are having? So I’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So this may sound obvious, but the first way of figuring out what symptoms a patient has is by asking, and it’s so interesting, right? There have been studies comparing what symptoms are most important to patients and what symptoms clinicians think the patients have. And guess what, the clinicians don’t actually know which symptoms the patient has, or which symptoms are most important to the patient, and…so anyway, it sounds obvious, but it sometimes isn’t, and I think clinicians are busy and sometimes feel like having a tool to ask those questions is maybe too burdensome. I personally find that the MPN symptom assessment form is a quick form, it’s easy to complete, it can be given to a patient, there’s a piece of paper while they’re waiting for you.

And that also directs the conversation because it really just gives numbers, makes it objective, and then can really start that conversation. And so remembering that we do have this tool, it actually can help cut down time to the visit and make it more focused, and it’s helpful to…empowers the patient and make sure that you really are asking about all of those symptoms, and just making sure that you don’t just assume that a patient has or doesn’t have a symptom, but really saying, “Are there any other symptoms that you’ve noticed?” I’m trying to be really thorough because, honestly, MPN symptoms can manifest in so many different ways for our patients in addition to those 10 symptoms that are asked in the MPN symptom assessment form, and so trying to be thorough about those symptoms, I think, really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

And thank you for that and for highlighting sometimes this disconnect between the patients and the clinicians, and also the fact that what’s important to us may not be as important to the patient, and what’s important to the patient may get overlooked by us, and so again, it’s always going back to centering the patient and their experiences. Do you have anything to add, Ms. Johnson, with regard to talking to patients about their symptoms? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes, I had to just laugh in on my head with what Dr. Hobbs said, because it’s so true. With MPNs, numbers are a big deal in this world, and we can see a patient and just look at their numbers and think, “They look good,” and then you see them and they’re like, “I feel horrible.” And it just doesn’t relate. And so I agree with what she said, really going over what are the common symptoms and then thinking about, if they’re on treatment, is this like a medication side effect or is this a disease-related symptom, and then thinking just about comorbidity. So often our patients can have CHF or pulmonary hypertension that’s contributing to their symptoms, and so discussing that and trying to get those things managed.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, Dr. Hobbs, did you have something you wanted to add? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Yeah. You know what I was thinking, we also have obviously very different personalities for our patients, of course, in addition for our clinicians, and there are sometimes patients that are very vocal, will come in and share every single symptom, and then we have some stoic patients that never complain, but for those patients, it’s very helpful to turn around and look at the spouse. And so you’ll ask the patient, “Are you tired?” “No, I’m fine.” “Are you whatever?” “No, everything’s okay,” and then the spouse is like, “But remember, you really haven’t been having your dinner, and remember how you were complaining about how your stomach was hurting every time you ate. And you say you’re not itchy, but every night when we’re watching TV, I turn around and I see that you’re scratching.” And so I think that’s also a really important tool to make sure that you make use of the family members, because they really know what’s going on if the patient is not willing to share as much or doesn’t like to complain. [chuckle]

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Oh, Dr. Hobbs, you are reminding me of my former caregiving experience. There were so many occasions where my dad, who did not have MPN by the way, but my dad would…he was that stoic person who would downplay everything, even though the entire car ride to the doctor’s office, he had been complaining, [chuckle] but in front of the doctor he was always fine.

Gabriela  Hobbs, MD:

Everything is fine.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Yeah, I was the care partner that was like, “But what about what you said 5 minutes ago?” So I appreciate you sharing that. We cannot overemphasize the importance of engaging with those incredible care partners. So you all both mentioned there are a lot of symptoms and those symptoms can really have an impact on patients and on their families, their care partners, what specific strategies can other providers use to explain how to minimize the disease impact of MPN? And I’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

Okay, so the number one symptom I hear is fatigue, and it has nothing really to do with hemoglobin, whether it’s normal or not. It’s so many factors that go into the disease, that cause it, and then also considering comorbidity, so I really try to encourage patients to be as active as possible. And we’ve seen with some of our solid tumors and studies that have been done when fatigue’s an issue, activity or physical exercise really seems to be the best way to combat that.

And I really try to encourage them. “Once you stop doing something and you sit down, it’s going to be hard to get back up and do it again. So pace yourself and do what you can.” But that is a big encouragement that I give. And then a second one I would say is diet. There’s been some new interest in looking at the Mediterranean diet, and that it has a possible benefit in reducing symptom burden in patients, so I think that’s something we can continue to look into, but it certainly can’t hurt a patient, especially when you look at cardiovascular risk factor, so just encouraging healthy diet. But I’m also a great advocate for, if they can eat, I want them to enjoy life and eat, too. So I go back and forth a little bit on that depending on the patient. And then just lastly, I really do encourage them to live, you know, live each day, continue living, and I have some patients that play pickleball several times a week and can be really active and enjoy that, and some, it’s just maybe having their neighbors over to play cards once a week, and that’s okay. Or their family, or their church community. Just an encouragement that if they’re living and trying to have healthy habits, I really think it can improve symptom burden.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Dr. Hobbs, are there any non-pharmacologic strategies that you endorse? And I’m asking you specifically because I think a lot of times, patients and care partners think that physicians aren’t well-versed in non-pharmacologic therapies or that we don’t endorse non-pharmacologic therapy. So I’m curious to know if there are any that you tend to recommend to your patients with MPNs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:  

I love this question, and I’m glad to have an opportunity to talk about it, and I loved everything that Ms. Johnson said. For many years, I’ve felt in my practice like I’m a primary care doctor, and I’m talking to patients about diet and exercise, [chuckle] especially for the patients that have essential thrombocythemia and polycythemia vera or low-risk myelofibrosis, those diseases really are diseases that I think about as another cardiovascular risk factor. And when we’re talking to patients that have cardiovascular risk factors, like obesity, like hypertension, like hyperlipidemia, diabetes, etcetera, what do we talk to them about? We talk about lifestyle modification. And I think that that fits in beautifully in the care of a patient with an MPN because there’s nothing like getting a diagnosis to take away control from your life. And so giving patients control back by saying, “Actually, you do have control over this disease by changing your lifestyle, by living an active healthy lifestyle and having a well-balanced diet,” I think can actually be very helpful.

One of the things that we don’t talk a lot about in MPNs, ’cause we’re focused on cell signaling and new fancy medications, is just the basics, lifestyle modification. And so I’m a huge fan of that holistic approach. I loved what Ms. Johnson said about, “Don’t let yourself be defined by this disease.” Let’s really find a way of improving your quality of life and maximizing how you live your days. And so I think talking to them about lifestyle modification is something that is really near and dear to my heart. We have a clinical trial now helping patients to really change their lifestyle, get more active and eat more healthily, and I think that those things are actually really, really important. Many of my patients, the first thing they do when they get diagnosed is they want to go and find that magical supplement that’s going to change their natural history of their disease. And although I can’t really say if any of those supplements are going to be helpful or not, I can for sure say that there is no harm, and there’s probably benefit to staying active and also to having a more plant-based, less processed food diet. And I think that that really goes a long way in terms of helping patients to improve their symptoms, feel less tired and feel less anxious, also feel like they have more control over what’s going on with them.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Wonderful. That’s great to hear. So I wanted to shift again and start to talk about specifically disease progression. And we know that that is, unfortunately, something that is an important element of MPNs. And so as we talk to fellow MPN specialists, what are you all’s recommendations for how they can best explain disease progression to patients? Are there any specific languaging or specific tactics that you all use, and even things that maybe you shouldn’t say as you are sharing information about disease progression? Either one of you, feel free to go first.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So disease progression, I think is a really challenging topic, because on the one hand, I think it’s really important to educate patients. It’s really important for patients to know that that is a possibility, that it is something that can happen. It’s really challenging to have a patient that has lived with this disease for a long time, hardly even knows the name of that disease. Maybe they were seen elsewhere, etcetera, and then all of a sudden, something’s going wrong and they just weren’t prepared for that. But I feel like that really does need to be balanced by the fact that, thankfully, progression happens infrequently. And so you also…going back to what we were saying before, you want to help a patient to be able to live well with these diseases and not be defined by those diseases. And so one of the things that I try to do with patients is, especially during that initial visit, I spend some time explaining to them what the disease is, that it can progress to myelofibrosis, that it can progress to leukemia. But then I also try to reassure them as much as possible that this is an infrequent event, that the reason why we follow patients in-clinic is so that we can start to notice if there’s disease progression, that it usually happens gradually.

And then I try to say, “You have this information. We can’t necessarily change that at this moment, there are maybe some tools that we can use in the future, but try to put that information in a box in your brain, put the key, put it away, try not to think about that every day when you’re outside of here. Definitely okay to open that back up when you’re with me in the room. If you want to get those anxieties out, that’s fine, but let’s really try to make sure that that’s in the back and not at the forefront of our thoughts.” And kind of going back to one of the things we were discussing before about what the patient thinks is most important, what the clinician thinks is most important. If you ask patients what are they most concerned about with their MPN, oftentimes that response is, “Is my disease going to progress?” And so I think acknowledging that and talking about that is important, but then also reminding patients that over time, they need to, hopefully with your help, or maybe they need additional assistance with therapists or social workers, etcetera, let’s find a way to put that away so that it’s not really at the forefront of our thoughts every single day, because that also ends up being not productive.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I love that approach, of providing the education, but also that balance that you talked about, Dr. Hobbs. I love the idea of putting it away, putting it in a box [chuckle] and locking it, and then opening it back up when you’re in the safety with your healthcare provider. That’s beautiful.

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Johnson? 

Natasha Johnson:

I completely agree. Your example there of putting it in the box, I’m going to use that in clinic. [laughter] I think it’s a great visual for patients. Because like you said, they’re very scared, and it can control them and take over, and we don’t want the disease to take over their life. Still live. Enjoy. 

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. So as we start to wrap up, we definitely want to address the role of advanced practice clinicians. We’re honored to have Ms. Johnson here with us, a nurse practitioner. And you mentioned earlier, Dr. Hobbs, that you work very closely with the nurse practitioner, so I’d love for you to share, Dr. Hobbs, the importance, in your professional opinion, of the role of advanced practice clinicians in MPN care. And how can fellow providers best leverage and utilize advanced practice clinicians? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that Ms. Johnson is here with us. And I am thinking about Judy, the nurse practitioner that I work with the most. And honestly, without her and without the NPs that work in our clinic, I’m pretty sure that our clinic would fall apart, [chuckle] so I don’t have enough important…I really don’t have enough good things to say about the NPs or the advanced practice providers. They really play a huge role in the care of our patients and in so many different ways. I think sometimes a patient will feel more comfortable sharing some things either with the practice nurses or with the nurse practitioners. Sometimes having just a different perspective from another clinician is so helpful for the patient. Sometimes even if the two of us are communicating similar information, just to hear it slightly differently in another perspective can be really so helpful. Another thing that I think is also really essential about having that team approach is that when I’m away, if I’m on the inpatient service or Judy is away, [chuckle] the patients always know who they’re going to see when they come to the clinic. There’s that great continuity of care. And so I think the fact that there are two of us taking care of a patient as opposed to just me ends up really being very, very helpful for the patients, because they know that when they come to see us, they’re going to see somebody that really knows them longitudinally. And so two is better than one, honestly.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Two, absolutely better than one. And Ms. Johnson, how would you describe your role? Or maybe is there one example of how you partner with physicians and other members of the team, or maybe something that stands out for you that you’d like to share with the audience? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. So I work with two main physicians, and one of them is a MPN expert. And so he sees them in their consult initial visit. And then oftentimes, they’re following up with me for those more frequent visits. Our physicians are performing research, they’re teaching, so they’re not in clinic as many days a week as, like I am. And so I do see him more often and really get to know them. But I communicate with my physician almost on a daily basis. And because our relationship has grown, I think that he’s come to trust me to know that I can pick up on…when I’m concerned about disease progression, I know that I can go to him and talk to him, and he’s there. And then he also helps me to make…or he also trusts me to make more minor treatment decisions. But when things are a big deal, I call on him, and he’s there. Oftentimes, if the patient come in and we did not expect this and it’s obvious they’ve progressed, he’ll come into the room with me, and I really believe that makes the patient so much more comfortable. They enjoy seeing me. And we have a good relationship, but it’s different when it’s coming from your physician. And so yeah, we work really close, we communicate regularly. I try to ensure the patients of that. But I do develop very close relationships with patients, because I’m seeing them more routinely and more often.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

That makes perfect sense. It takes a team, right? I mean, we talk about healthcare teams, and that’s really what you all are describing, is teamwork in action. Lastly, I want to wrap up by talking about cultural humility. You all have spoken so eloquently about the importance of developing true, genuine relationships with patients and their care partners and valuing what’s important to them and bringing them into the shared decision-making. And we also know that our patients come with their own unique racial and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and that sometimes, unfortunately in healthcare, we don’t take those things into consideration. So when we talk about cultural humility, we’re really talking about acknowledging a patient’s full, authentic self, their full, lived experiences, and also acknowledging our own biases that we bring to the table, listening to our patients and having that interest and that curiosity. So I’d love for you to either share an example of when you or a fellow provider were able to show cultural humility in action, or maybe a specific tip for the providers that are watching this program about how to truly incorporate cultural humility into your practice. We’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that question. And I think this is something that is a lifelong process for all of us, and I think it starts with awareness, really just recognizing that you bring your own background and bias into every encounter. And that’s okay. So I think sometimes we want to feel like we’re color blind and culture blind and that we see everything the same. But we have our own biases. And one example for me where that’s always true is, I’m a physician, but I’m also an investigator, and so, obviously, I have a bias towards research. For me, it’s obvious, yeah, of course, I’m wanting to participate in a clinical trial.

And I think you have to be aware of the fact that clinical trials come with all sorts of different opinions from patients, patients don’t like to be guinea pigs, there is mistrust, there’s all sorts of history in [chuckle] this country, especially about clinical trials. And I think coming into those encounters, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, taking into account that you really do know your patient. But sometimes, you don’t know the patient as well. You’re getting to know them, and you need to make a decision. Just listening, being humble, being aware, trying to understand where the patient is coming from, I think sometimes, especially when you’re trying to make a decision quickly and you find that there’s some friction, I think taking some time to say, “Alright, where is that coming from?” And perhaps I’m coming across too strong with this recommendation to do this clinical trial and there’s maybe something that I need to explore, and so just keeping an open mind and trying to just ask questions, “Where are you coming from? What’s important to you? Why are you hesitating? Or is there something that I can explain in a different way?” And really trying to get the whole picture of who that patient is and where they’re coming from. I think that’s probably a really important one.

Another example and I’ll let Ms. Johnson talk. 

It comes often in my practice, I speak Spanish and I realize the moment that I switch languages, for example, with a patient, the whole conversation can change. And so in some instances, I have the ability to truly get into that cultural mindset very well because it’s a culture that I’m very familiar, and so you can break those barriers more easily. But then there’s some other situations, or maybe a culture that I’m not as familiar with and I don’t speak the language, or I don’t speak to culture, and you need to keep that in mind and realize, “Okay, here, I don’t know exactly all the same custom,” so I need to take a step back, be humble and just ask a lot of questions, and just acknowledge that, and that’s okay.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. What about you, Ms. Johnson? Any examples or anything you want to reflect on regarding cultural humility.

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. When I think about this, I know that I have to go in prepared and be aware, so like educating myself on how does MPN affect this specific population, and with this culture, what are their values that they hold? And so when I’m going in to see the patient, just like Dr. Hobbs said, listening, being respectful, watching my body language, discussing all treatment options. And just two quick examples I can think about is, one, I’ve had a patient due to religious beliefs can’t take transfusions. And so a lot of times anemia is a big deal in our situation, and so really being creative with the treatments to not really worsen that and be okay with it. And you’d really be surprised how a patient can go around with a hemoglobin of like 5 and live normally when their body gets used to it. But I remember just that patient very well and having to respect that and understand it. And then the second is, I’ve had patients progress and they need to go to transplant or we need to do a bone marrow biopsy to really see where the disease is at right now. And in my mind, I think, “You’re fit. You feel good, like pushing these things,” and I have to step back and look at the patient and listen to the patient. And they’re telling me, “Right now for this, this or this reason, I don’t want to do this. And my priorities are over here.” And just really respecting the patient and still taking 100 percent great care of them through all that.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I really appreciate you all’s insight, your expertise. It’s time to wrap up. And you all have said a lot. You’ve talked about the importance of addressing symptoms, you’ve talked about getting to know patients and their care partners, you talked about the idea of centering our patients and their care partners and making sure that we understand their values, we’ve talked about disease progression, we’ve talked about holistic care and cultural humility. Do you have any closing thoughts, any one last thing that you want to leave with the audience as we wrap up this amazing program? We’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson. Any closing thoughts? 

Natasha Johnson:

I think of three things, assessing, educating and providing. So assessing your patient by listening, really getting to know them, seeing what they understand, educate them. Not to put fear in them, but to educate them so that they are well-empowered on their disease and how we’re going to move forward. And then providing them with resources regarding treatment with ways to alleviate symptoms so they can further their knowledge as well. So that way overall, we are aiming our goal to improve their quality of life and their overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome. Thank you for that. And what about you, Dr. Hobbs? Any closing thoughts? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Hard to say anything better than what Ms. Johnson just said, [laughter] But the only thing I’ll add, which I think is really in the same message, is to remember that there’s a ton of hope, and I think our patients are nervous and they’re worried about this disease, but this field is changing rapidly there’s so many clinical trials in this space and new medications that are likely to be approved. That I think it’s important to remind patients that even though right at this moment, you know, the only curative treatment is a bone marrow transplant for those patients with myelofibrosis, I really do feel very optimistic that there’s going to be a lot of different treatments in the next couple of years that are going to be available for them. And so education is critical, and leaving those patients with hope at the end of each encounter is something that’s also really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, I love that we’re ending the program with a message of hope. Thank you so much, Dr. Hobbs, Ms. Johnson, thank you for your time and thank you to all of you for tuning into this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. Have an amazing day.

Explaining Myeloproliferative Neoplasm Disease Progression to Patients

Explaining Myeloproliferative Neoplasm Disease Progression to Patients from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What is the best way to explain disease progression to myeloproliferative neoplasm patients? MPN experts Dr. Gabriela Hobbs and Natasha Johnson share advice on how they work with patients and families to clearly explain disease progression.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia, and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital and is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. 

Natasha Johnson, is an Advanced Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for people living with MPNs with kindness, patience, and humanity. Natasha also speaks at conferences to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research, and treatment. 

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Transcript:

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I wanted to shift again and start to talk about specifically disease progression. And we know that that is, unfortunately, something that is an important element of MPNs. And so as we talk to fellow MPN specialists, what are you all’s recommendations for how they can best explain disease progression to patients? Are there any specific languaging or specific tactics that you all use, and even things that maybe you shouldn’t say as you are sharing information about disease progression? Either one of you, feel free to go first.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So disease progression, I think is a really challenging topic, because on the one hand, I think it’s really important to educate patients. It’s really important for patients to know that that is a possibility, that it is something that can happen. It’s really challenging to have a patient that has lived with this disease for a long time, hardly even knows the name of that disease. Maybe they were seen elsewhere, etcetera, and then all of a sudden, something’s going wrong and they just weren’t prepared for that. But I feel like that really does need to be balanced by the fact that, thankfully, progression happens infrequently. And so you also…going back to what we were saying before, you want to help a patient to be able to live well with these diseases and not be defined by those diseases. And so one of the things that I try to do with patients is, especially during that initial visit, I spend some time explaining to them what the disease is, that it can progress to myelofibrosis, that it can progress to leukemia. But then I also try to reassure them as much as possible that this is an infrequent event, that the reason why we follow patients in-clinic is so that we can start to notice if there’s disease progression, that it usually happens gradually.

And then I try to say, “You have this information. We can’t necessarily change that at this moment, there are maybe some tools that we can use in the future, but try to put that information in a box in your brain, put the key, put it away, try not to think about that every day when you’re outside of here. Definitely okay to open that back up when you’re with me in the room. If you want to get those anxieties out, that’s fine, but let’s really try to make sure that that’s in the back and not at the forefront of our thoughts.” And kind of going back to one of the things we were discussing before about what the patient thinks is most important, what the clinician thinks is most important. If you ask patients what are they most concerned about with their MPN, oftentimes that response is, “Is my disease going to progress?” And so I think acknowledging that and talking about that is important, but then also reminding patients that over time, they need to, hopefully with your help, or maybe they need additional assistance with therapists or social workers, etcetera, let’s find a way to put that away so that it’s not really at the forefront of our thoughts every single day, because that also ends up being not productive.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I love that approach, of providing the education, but also that balance that you talked about, Dr. Hobbs. I love the idea of putting it away, putting it in a box [chuckle] and locking it, and then opening it back up when you’re in the safety with your healthcare provider. That’s beautiful.

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Johnson? 

Natasha Johnson:

I completely agree. Your example there of putting it in the box, I’m going to use that in clinic. [laughter] I think it’s a great visual for patients. Because like you said, they’re very scared, and it can control them and take over, and we don’t want the disease to take over their life. Still live. Enjoy. 


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HCP Roundtable: Shared Decision-Making in Myeloproliferative Neoplasm (MPN) Care

HCP Roundtable: Shared Decision-Making in Myeloproliferative Neoplasm (MPN) Care from Patient Empowerment Network on Vimeo.

What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care? How should fellow MPN specialists explain disease progression to patients and care partners? In this HCP-to-HCP roundtable discussion, experts Dr. Gabriela Hobbs and Natasha Johnson share best practices for helping your MPN patients play an active role in managing their health.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia, and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital and is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. 

Natasha Johnson, is an Advanced Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for people living with MPNs with kindness, patience, and humanity. Natasha also speaks at conferences to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research, and treatment.

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Tracking MPN Symptoms: Strategies for Managing Disease Burden

Tracking MPN Symptoms: Strategies for Managing Disease Burden

Transcript:

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. My name is Dr. Nicole Rochester, I’m a pediatrician and the CEO of Your GPS Doc. This program is for providers who desire to empower their patients and families. In this Patient Empowerment Network program, we connect MPN expert voices to discuss enhancing physician-patient communication and shared decision-making in MPN care. Some of the topics we’re going to cover today include how to help your MPN patients play an active role in managing their care, healthcare provider recommended strategies for managing disease burden to minimize disease impact on MPN patients’ lives, the importance of advanced practice clinicians on the health care team of MPN patients, clinical trials and the importance of nurses addressing this topic with their patients and families, as well as cultural humility in action.

I’m thrilled to be joined by MPN experts, Dr. Gabriela  Hobbs, Director of the Adult Leukemia Services at Massachusetts General Hospital and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Hobbs leads multiple investigator-initiated clinical trials in MPN as well as non-interventional trials, assessing outcomes for patients with MPN.

I am also thrilled to be joined by Natasha Johnson, an Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for patients living with MPN. Ms. Johnson also works to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research and treatment. Thank you both for joining me for this important conversation.

Natasha Johnson:

So glad to be here. Thank you.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Thank you so much.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

So I’d like to start by talking about the MPN care team and best practices for shared decision-making. We hear a lot about shared decision-making in healthcare. I would say for some, it’s more of a buzzword than an actual practice. I’m sure that you all agree that it’s incredibly important and really a core for the type of care that we should provide patients and their families, so I’d love to hear from each of you about what does that actually mean? What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care. And we’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Great question. I think shared decision-making can take many different forms in many of our clinical encounters, and I think one of the luxuries that we have in myeloproliferative neoplasms is that a lot of the decision-making that we need to make doesn’t have to happen immediately, and we also have the luxury of really getting to know our patients over time. And so having that longitudinal relationship, I think really helps in shared decision-making, because I know who that patient is, I know what’s important to them, we get to know their families, and they’ve also gotten to know our care team throughout our relationship. But in general, when we do need to make a decision about treatment, using that foundation, I think is really what’s most important for shared decision-making.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Oftentimes, patients are the drivers of a lot of these decisions and they’ll bring up the questions, but, of course, every patient is a little bit different, and sometimes I need to be more on the side of bringing up the questions, etcetera. So I think knowing where your patient is emotionally, what’s important to them, what are their worries, is really important, so you can have a conversation where you’re not just speaking about the things that you as a provider think is important, but really also listening to where the patient is coming from, and so that you can make sure that you’re appeasing their anxieties and whatever decision you make is consistent with both what you think is medically important, but also with what’s really important for the patients. I think listening is really at the core there.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Love that you highlighted listening. I think that’s something that we often don’t do enough of in healthcare, so thank you for that, Dr. Hobbs. What about you, Ms. Johnson? What are your thoughts about shared decision making in MPN care? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yeah, I agree with everything Dr. Hobbs said. I really believe it’s just…it starts with conversations and taking the time, making sure that you have the patient, you have the caregiver, if they can’t be there in person, sometimes you’re calling them on the phone. If it’s through Zoom visit they’re joining, and the health care provider, and I think that we spend a ton of time educating them to make sure that they really understand this disease, the symptoms that go along with it, the treatments that go along with that, and once we have a good confidence that they understand everything, lead them into discussing what their goals of care are, and then we take all that information together, and we create a treatment plan specific to that patient, really aiming to improve their quality of life and overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, so both of you spoke about the importance of listening and of really understanding the goals of the patients and their care partners, their family members, understanding their values, but we know that in reality, when you’re in that examination room and when you have all the distractions and all the competing priorities and the limited time, which is the thing I hear about most, I think, when I’m talking to colleagues, sometimes it can be difficult to put this into practice. So what can you share with fellow providers, maybe some tips or tricks or strategies that in face of all of those known barriers, how can they help patients take a more active role in managing their MPN? And we’ll start with you this time, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

All right, so one thing I would say is that here’s why I really think there’s a benefit to seeing an MPN expert that is at a national cancer center, academic center. I do think there is some more time allotted to those visits, especially the consults and first appointments for the patient, and we kind of start this with my doctor and other providers of assessing how much does the patient even know to begin with? So that can direct us where to start. And then how deep do they want to go. You know sometimes we have patients that they want to get down to the nitty-gritty and know all the scientific details, and other ones are like, Just lay it out for me easy. So really like assessing that from the beginning and then…so then start educating. Just like I said before, what does the disease look like, the symptoms, the treatment, alleviating symptoms, explaining that this is only cured by transplant. I think that’s really important to discuss right up front, and if they start treatment, usually treatment is indefinite. Of course, it’s changed depending on things, but educating them, so spending that time and then providing resources.

So we do this a lot by…I write a lot of things down for my patients when I see them, I think visuals are really helpful, provide literature, I tell them what websites to visit. A lot of times, they just will Google their doctor, which is great because they can find them and listen to their own lectures, and they really learn a lot. So just guiding them to those resources. I do think it’s important, too, to give them something like the total symptom score form. Just having that visual of, these are what is common, and then they can think about that between visits, but I think all of those things really help to educate them and get them involved.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, thank you for that, Ms. Johnson. What about you, Dr. Hobbs? Do you have any additional strategies that really help to empower patients to manage their care? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I think everything that Ms. Johnson said was spot on, and I agree with everything that she said. A few additional things that I would add to that is reminding a patient that they don’t need to remember every single thing we talk about at every single encounter, this is an ongoing conversation and decision-making will happen over time, especially when we’re trying to make more difficult decisions about when or if they have to go to transplant, for example. Sometimes I have a conversation with my patients for years before they actually get a transplant. Other things that I think are helpful strategies is reminding patients that they can be in touch.

Nowadays, we have so many different ways of keeping in touch with our patients, they know how to call our practice nurses in our clinic, how to get in touch with the nurse practitioner that I work with the most, how to get in touch with me through the patient portal. And so, knowing that when that visit finishes, which sometimes does feel short, even if…like Ms. Johnson said, we do have the luxury of time more in academic centers, they’re still…the patients will invariably get out of the room, get in their car and be like, “Oh, I forgot to ask that one question.” And so reminding them that they can get in touch, and then helping them to prepare for their next visits to make the most out of those visits, especially for some of those patients that maybe don’t always necessarily come back to see me.

There are some patients that live far away, and then they maybe see me infrequently, talking to them about the symptom assessment form, like Ms. Johnson said, pointing them to the right direction in terms of literature and reminding them that, especially for those patients that are very symptomatic, for example, keeping track of their symptoms over time, writing down notes about how they felt, what they think made something better, made something worse, how they’re responding to these medications, questions that they may have, and writing all of that down helps them be more empowered patients. They can advocate for themselves in a more organized way when they do go see either me or another clinician. So they come in fully prepared with the information and the questions that they want to get out of that visit.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Perfect, thank you both. That’s really important. And so this leads nicely into our next topic, both of you have mentioned the importance of tracking symptoms, and so we want to shift and talk about strategies for managing disease burden, and I’d love to hear from each of you about what are your recommendations as you speak to MPN patients and their care partners about symptoms? How should other providers bring up those conversations and what are the best ways to really elucidate the symptoms that patients with MPN are having? So I’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So this may sound obvious, but the first way of figuring out what symptoms a patient has is by asking, and it’s so interesting, right? There have been studies comparing what symptoms are most important to patients and what symptoms clinicians think the patients have. And guess what, the clinicians don’t actually know which symptoms the patient has, or which symptoms are most important to the patient, and…so anyway, it sounds obvious, but it sometimes isn’t, and I think clinicians are busy and sometimes feel like having a tool to ask those questions is maybe too burdensome. I personally find that the MPN symptom assessment form is a quick form, it’s easy to complete, it can be given to a patient, there’s a piece of paper while they’re waiting for you.

And that also directs the conversation because it really just gives numbers, makes it objective, and then can really start that conversation. And so remembering that we do have this tool, it actually can help cut down time to the visit and make it more focused, and it’s helpful to…empowers the patient and make sure that you really are asking about all of those symptoms, and just making sure that you don’t just assume that a patient has or doesn’t have a symptom, but really saying, “Are there any other symptoms that you’ve noticed?” I’m trying to be really thorough because, honestly, MPN symptoms can manifest in so many different ways for our patients in addition to those 10 symptoms that are asked in the MPN symptom assessment form, and so trying to be thorough about those symptoms, I think, really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

And thank you for that and for highlighting sometimes this disconnect between the patients and the clinicians, and also the fact that what’s important to us may not be as important to the patient, and what’s important to the patient may get overlooked by us, and so again, it’s always going back to centering the patient and their experiences. Do you have anything to add, Ms. Johnson, with regard to talking to patients about their symptoms? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes, I had to just laugh in on my head with what Dr. Hobbs said, because it’s so true. With MPNs, numbers are a big deal in this world, and we can see a patient and just look at their numbers and think, “They look good,” and then you see them and they’re like, “I feel horrible.” And it just doesn’t relate. And so I agree with what she said, really going over what are the common symptoms and then thinking about, if they’re on treatment, is this like a medication side effect or is this a disease-related symptom, and then thinking just about comorbidity. So often our patients can have CHF or pulmonary hypertension that’s contributing to their symptoms, and so discussing that and trying to get those things managed.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, Dr. Hobbs, did you have something you wanted to add? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Yeah. You know what I was thinking, we also have obviously very different personalities for our patients, of course, in addition for our clinicians, and there are sometimes patients that are very vocal, will come in and share every single symptom, and then we have some stoic patients that never complain, but for those patients, it’s very helpful to turn around and look at the spouse. And so you’ll ask the patient, “Are you tired?” “No, I’m fine.” “Are you whatever?” “No, everything’s okay,” and then the spouse is like, “But remember, you really haven’t been having your dinner, and remember how you were complaining about how your stomach was hurting every time you ate. And you say you’re not itchy, but every night when we’re watching TV, I turn around and I see that you’re scratching.” And so I think that’s also a really important tool to make sure that you make use of the family members, because they really know what’s going on if the patient is not willing to share as much or doesn’t like to complain. [chuckle]

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Oh, Dr. Hobbs, you are reminding me of my former caregiving experience. There were so many occasions where my dad, who did not have MPN by the way, but my dad would…he was that stoic person who would downplay everything, even though the entire car ride to the doctor’s office, he had been complaining, [chuckle] but in front of the doctor he was always fine.

Gabriela  Hobbs, MD:

Everything is fine.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Yeah, I was the care partner that was like, “But what about what you said 5 minutes ago?” So I appreciate you sharing that. We cannot overemphasize the importance of engaging with those incredible care partners. So you all both mentioned there are a lot of symptoms and those symptoms can really have an impact on patients and on their families, their care partners, what specific strategies can other providers use to explain how to minimize the disease impact of MPN? And I’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

Okay, so the number one symptom I hear is fatigue, and it has nothing really to do with hemoglobin, whether it’s normal or not. It’s so many factors that go into the disease, that cause it, and then also considering comorbidity, so I really try to encourage patients to be as active as possible. And we’ve seen with some of our solid tumors and studies that have been done when fatigue’s an issue, activity or physical exercise really seems to be the best way to combat that.

And I really try to encourage them. “Once you stop doing something and you sit down, it’s going to be hard to get back up and do it again. So pace yourself and do what you can.” But that is a big encouragement that I give. And then a second one I would say is diet. There’s been some new interest in looking at the Mediterranean diet, and that it has a possible benefit in reducing symptom burden in patients, so I think that’s something we can continue to look into, but it certainly can’t hurt a patient, especially when you look at cardiovascular risk factor, so just encouraging healthy diet. But I’m also a great advocate for, if they can eat, I want them to enjoy life and eat, too. So I go back and forth a little bit on that depending on the patient. And then just lastly, I really do encourage them to live, you know, live each day, continue living, and I have some patients that play pickleball several times a week and can be really active and enjoy that, and some, it’s just maybe having their neighbors over to play cards once a week, and that’s okay. Or their family, or their church community. Just an encouragement that if they’re living and trying to have healthy habits, I really think it can improve symptom burden.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Dr. Hobbs, are there any non-pharmacologic strategies that you endorse? And I’m asking you specifically because I think a lot of times, patients and care partners think that physicians aren’t well-versed in non-pharmacologic therapies or that we don’t endorse non-pharmacologic therapy. So I’m curious to know if there are any that you tend to recommend to your patients with MPNs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:  

I love this question, and I’m glad to have an opportunity to talk about it, and I loved everything that Ms. Johnson said. For many years, I’ve felt in my practice like I’m a primary care doctor, and I’m talking to patients about diet and exercise, [chuckle] especially for the patients that have essential thrombocythemia and polycythemia vera or low-risk myelofibrosis, those diseases really are diseases that I think about as another cardiovascular risk factor. And when we’re talking to patients that have cardiovascular risk factors, like obesity, like hypertension, like hyperlipidemia, diabetes, etcetera, what do we talk to them about? We talk about lifestyle modification. And I think that that fits in beautifully in the care of a patient with an MPN because there’s nothing like getting a diagnosis to take away control from your life. And so giving patients control back by saying, “Actually, you do have control over this disease by changing your lifestyle, by living an active healthy lifestyle and having a well-balanced diet,” I think can actually be very helpful.

One of the things that we don’t talk a lot about in MPNs, ’cause we’re focused on cell signaling and new fancy medications, is just the basics, lifestyle modification. And so I’m a huge fan of that holistic approach. I loved what Ms. Johnson said about, “Don’t let yourself be defined by this disease.” Let’s really find a way of improving your quality of life and maximizing how you live your days. And so I think talking to them about lifestyle modification is something that is really near and dear to my heart. We have a clinical trial now helping patients to really change their lifestyle, get more active and eat more healthily, and I think that those things are actually really, really important. Many of my patients, the first thing they do when they get diagnosed is they want to go and find that magical supplement that’s going to change their natural history of their disease. And although I can’t really say if any of those supplements are going to be helpful or not, I can for sure say that there is no harm, and there’s probably benefit to staying active and also to having a more plant-based, less processed food diet. And I think that that really goes a long way in terms of helping patients to improve their symptoms, feel less tired and feel less anxious, also feel like they have more control over what’s going on with them.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Wonderful. That’s great to hear. So I wanted to shift again and start to talk about specifically disease progression. And we know that that is, unfortunately, something that is an important element of MPNs. And so as we talk to fellow MPN specialists, what are you all’s recommendations for how they can best explain disease progression to patients? Are there any specific languaging or specific tactics that you all use, and even things that maybe you shouldn’t say as you are sharing information about disease progression? Either one of you, feel free to go first.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So disease progression, I think is a really challenging topic, because on the one hand, I think it’s really important to educate patients. It’s really important for patients to know that that is a possibility, that it is something that can happen. It’s really challenging to have a patient that has lived with this disease for a long time, hardly even knows the name of that disease. Maybe they were seen elsewhere, etcetera, and then all of a sudden, something’s going wrong and they just weren’t prepared for that. But I feel like that really does need to be balanced by the fact that, thankfully, progression happens infrequently. And so you also…going back to what we were saying before, you want to help a patient to be able to live well with these diseases and not be defined by those diseases. And so one of the things that I try to do with patients is, especially during that initial visit, I spend some time explaining to them what the disease is, that it can progress to myelofibrosis, that it can progress to leukemia. But then I also try to reassure them as much as possible that this is an infrequent event, that the reason why we follow patients in-clinic is so that we can start to notice if there’s disease progression, that it usually happens gradually.

And then I try to say, “You have this information. We can’t necessarily change that at this moment, there are maybe some tools that we can use in the future, but try to put that information in a box in your brain, put the key, put it away, try not to think about that every day when you’re outside of here. Definitely okay to open that back up when you’re with me in the room. If you want to get those anxieties out, that’s fine, but let’s really try to make sure that that’s in the back and not at the forefront of our thoughts.” And kind of going back to one of the things we were discussing before about what the patient thinks is most important, what the clinician thinks is most important. If you ask patients what are they most concerned about with their MPN, oftentimes that response is, “Is my disease going to progress?” And so I think acknowledging that and talking about that is important, but then also reminding patients that over time, they need to, hopefully with your help, or maybe they need additional assistance with therapists or social workers, etcetera, let’s find a way to put that away so that it’s not really at the forefront of our thoughts every single day, because that also ends up being not productive.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I love that approach, of providing the education, but also that balance that you talked about, Dr. Hobbs. I love the idea of putting it away, putting it in a box [chuckle] and locking it, and then opening it back up when you’re in the safety with your healthcare provider. That’s beautiful.

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Johnson? 

Natasha Johnson:

I completely agree. Your example there of putting it in the box, I’m going to use that in clinic. [laughter] I think it’s a great visual for patients. Because like you said, they’re very scared, and it can control them and take over, and we don’t want the disease to take over their life. Still live. Enjoy. 

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. So as we start to wrap up, we definitely want to address the role of advanced practice clinicians. We’re honored to have Ms. Johnson here with us, a nurse practitioner. And you mentioned earlier, Dr. Hobbs, that you work very closely with the nurse practitioner, so I’d love for you to share, Dr. Hobbs, the importance, in your professional opinion, of the role of advanced practice clinicians in MPN care. And how can fellow providers best leverage and utilize advanced practice clinicians? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that Ms. Johnson is here with us. And I am thinking about Judy, the nurse practitioner that I work with the most. And honestly, without her and without the NPs that work in our clinic, I’m pretty sure that our clinic would fall apart, [chuckle] so I don’t have enough important…I really don’t have enough good things to say about the NPs or the advanced practice providers. They really play a huge role in the care of our patients and in so many different ways. I think sometimes a patient will feel more comfortable sharing some things either with the practice nurses or with the nurse practitioners. Sometimes having just a different perspective from another clinician is so helpful for the patient. Sometimes even if the two of us are communicating similar information, just to hear it slightly differently in another perspective can be really so helpful. Another thing that I think is also really essential about having that team approach is that when I’m away, if I’m on the inpatient service or Judy is away, [chuckle] the patients always know who they’re going to see when they come to the clinic. There’s that great continuity of care. And so I think the fact that there are two of us taking care of a patient as opposed to just me ends up really being very, very helpful for the patients, because they know that when they come to see us, they’re going to see somebody that really knows them longitudinally. And so two is better than one, honestly.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Two, absolutely better than one. And Ms. Johnson, how would you describe your role? Or maybe is there one example of how you partner with physicians and other members of the team, or maybe something that stands out for you that you’d like to share with the audience? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. So I work with two main physicians, and one of them is a MPN expert. And so he sees them in their consult initial visit. And then oftentimes, they’re following up with me for those more frequent visits. Our physicians are performing research, they’re teaching, so they’re not in clinic as many days a week as, like I am. And so I do see him more often and really get to know them. But I communicate with my physician almost on a daily basis. And because our relationship has grown, I think that he’s come to trust me to know that I can pick up on…when I’m concerned about disease progression, I know that I can go to him and talk to him, and he’s there. And then he also helps me to make…or he also trusts me to make more minor treatment decisions. But when things are a big deal, I call on him, and he’s there. Oftentimes, if the patient come in and we did not expect this and it’s obvious they’ve progressed, he’ll come into the room with me, and I really believe that makes the patient so much more comfortable. They enjoy seeing me. And we have a good relationship, but it’s different when it’s coming from your physician. And so yeah, we work really close, we communicate regularly. I try to ensure the patients of that. But I do develop very close relationships with patients, because I’m seeing them more routinely and more often.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

That makes perfect sense. It takes a team, right? I mean, we talk about healthcare teams, and that’s really what you all are describing, is teamwork in action. Lastly, I want to wrap up by talking about cultural humility. You all have spoken so eloquently about the importance of developing true, genuine relationships with patients and their care partners and valuing what’s important to them and bringing them into the shared decision-making. And we also know that our patients come with their own unique racial and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and that sometimes, unfortunately in healthcare, we don’t take those things into consideration. So when we talk about cultural humility, we’re really talking about acknowledging a patient’s full, authentic self, their full, lived experiences, and also acknowledging our own biases that we bring to the table, listening to our patients and having that interest and that curiosity. So I’d love for you to either share an example of when you or a fellow provider were able to show cultural humility in action, or maybe a specific tip for the providers that are watching this program about how to truly incorporate cultural humility into your practice. We’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that question. And I think this is something that is a lifelong process for all of us, and I think it starts with awareness, really just recognizing that you bring your own background and bias into every encounter. And that’s okay. So I think sometimes we want to feel like we’re color blind and culture blind and that we see everything the same. But we have our own biases. And one example for me where that’s always true is, I’m a physician, but I’m also an investigator, and so, obviously, I have a bias towards research. For me, it’s obvious, yeah, of course, I’m wanting to participate in a clinical trial.

And I think you have to be aware of the fact that clinical trials come with all sorts of different opinions from patients, patients don’t like to be guinea pigs, there is mistrust, there’s all sorts of history in [chuckle] this country, especially about clinical trials. And I think coming into those encounters, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, taking into account that you really do know your patient. But sometimes, you don’t know the patient as well. You’re getting to know them, and you need to make a decision. Just listening, being humble, being aware, trying to understand where the patient is coming from, I think sometimes, especially when you’re trying to make a decision quickly and you find that there’s some friction, I think taking some time to say, “Alright, where is that coming from?” And perhaps I’m coming across too strong with this recommendation to do this clinical trial and there’s maybe something that I need to explore, and so just keeping an open mind and trying to just ask questions, “Where are you coming from? What’s important to you? Why are you hesitating? Or is there something that I can explain in a different way?” And really trying to get the whole picture of who that patient is and where they’re coming from. I think that’s probably a really important one.

Another example and I’ll let Ms. Johnson talk. 

It comes often in my practice, I speak Spanish and I realize the moment that I switch languages, for example, with a patient, the whole conversation can change. And so in some instances, I have the ability to truly get into that cultural mindset very well because it’s a culture that I’m very familiar, and so you can break those barriers more easily. But then there’s some other situations, or maybe a culture that I’m not as familiar with and I don’t speak the language, or I don’t speak to culture, and you need to keep that in mind and realize, “Okay, here, I don’t know exactly all the same custom,” so I need to take a step back, be humble and just ask a lot of questions, and just acknowledge that, and that’s okay.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. What about you, Ms. Johnson? Any examples or anything you want to reflect on regarding cultural humility.

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. When I think about this, I know that I have to go in prepared and be aware, so like educating myself on how does MPN affect this specific population, and with this culture, what are their values that they hold? And so when I’m going in to see the patient, just like Dr. Hobbs said, listening, being respectful, watching my body language, discussing all treatment options. And just two quick examples I can think about is, one, I’ve had a patient due to religious beliefs can’t take transfusions. And so a lot of times anemia is a big deal in our situation, and so really being creative with the treatments to not really worsen that and be okay with it. And you’d really be surprised how a patient can go around with a hemoglobin of like 5 and live normally when their body gets used to it. But I remember just that patient very well and having to respect that and understand it. And then the second is, I’ve had patients progress and they need to go to transplant or we need to do a bone marrow biopsy to really see where the disease is at right now. And in my mind, I think, “You’re fit. You feel good, like pushing these things,” and I have to step back and look at the patient and listen to the patient. And they’re telling me, “Right now for this, this or this reason, I don’t want to do this. And my priorities are over here.” And just really respecting the patient and still taking 100 percent great care of them through all that.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I really appreciate you all’s insight, your expertise. It’s time to wrap up. And you all have said a lot. You’ve talked about the importance of addressing symptoms, you’ve talked about getting to know patients and their care partners, you talked about the idea of centering our patients and their care partners and making sure that we understand their values, we’ve talked about disease progression, we’ve talked about holistic care and cultural humility. Do you have any closing thoughts, any one last thing that you want to leave with the audience as we wrap up this amazing program? We’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson. Any closing thoughts? 

Natasha Johnson:

I think of three things, assessing, educating and providing. So assessing your patient by listening, really getting to know them, seeing what they understand, educate them. Not to put fear in them, but to educate them so that they are well-empowered on their disease and how we’re going to move forward. And then providing them with resources regarding treatment with ways to alleviate symptoms so they can further their knowledge as well. So that way overall, we are aiming our goal to improve their quality of life and their overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome. Thank you for that. And what about you, Dr. Hobbs? Any closing thoughts? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Hard to say anything better than what Ms. Johnson just said, [laughter] But the only thing I’ll add, which I think is really in the same message, is to remember that there’s a ton of hope, and I think our patients are nervous and they’re worried about this disease, but this field is changing rapidly there’s so many clinical trials in this space and new medications that are likely to be approved. That I think it’s important to remind patients that even though right at this moment, you know, the only curative treatment is a bone marrow transplant for those patients with myelofibrosis, I really do feel very optimistic that there’s going to be a lot of different treatments in the next couple of years that are going to be available for them. And so education is critical, and leaving those patients with hope at the end of each encounter is something that’s also really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, I love that we’re ending the program with a message of hope. Thank you so much, Dr. Hobbs, Ms. Johnson, thank you for your time and thank you to all of you for tuning into this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. Have an amazing day.


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PODCAST: What Should You Know About Emerging Myeloma Treatment Options?

 

With myeloma treatment and research advancing quickly, it’s important to stay up-to-date on the latest therapies. Myeloma expert Dr. Jeffrey Matous reviews new and emerging myeloma treatment approaches, how these therapies work, as well as the potential risks and benefits of each option. Dr. Matous also shares resources for learning about myeloma and how to access better care.

Dr. Jeffrey Matous is a myeloma specialist at the Colorado Blood Cancer Institute and the assistant chair in myeloma research for Sarah Cannon Research Institute. Learn more about Dr. Matous.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello, and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today’s webinar is about advances in myeloma treatment and how emerging therapies may affect your care decisions.  

Before we get into discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Jeffrey Matous. Dr. Matous, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Matous:

Thank you very much, Katherine. I’m Dr. Jeff Matous, and I am physician at the Colorado Blood Cancer Institute, and also, the Assistant Chair in Myeloma Research for Sarah Cannon Research Institute here in Colorado. 

Katherine:

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Matous:

It’s a pleasure. 

Katherine:

Before we get into our discussion, would you share with the audience how the field of myeloma has changed over the course of your career? 

Dr. Matous:

It’s unbelievable. I mean, I started treating myeloma back in the days of VAD, vincristine (Oncovin), doxorubicin (Adriamycin), dexamethasone (Decadron) 96-hour pumps with 40 pounds of dexamethasone that we put into patients, and wow. We didn’t have much else. We didn’t know how long to treat people, and then, in the 2000s, we have the revolution of all the new therapies, and it just keeps going and going and going. It really is an exciting to be in this field. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Let’s begin by sharing some advice for navigating myeloma care on a basic level. First, what testing should take place following a myeloma diagnosis? 

Dr. Matous:

Well, I think even before that, Katherine, I always tell my patients that an educated patient, like the people that are on this webinar, are the best patients, and so, when I meet a patient for the first time, we spend a lot of time educating patients even before we delve into a lot of the testing. 

And I refer them to excellent resources out there. Examples of these are the International Myeloma Foundation, or the Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation.  

There are others, of course, and so I really encourage my patients. In fact, I usually show them how to navigate these sites. And then, we get into testing, and testing in myeloma is multifaceted, because myeloma can affect patients in so many different ways. For example, it involves radiology studies to look for bone disease, urine work to see if the kidneys are affected by myeloma, a lot of blood work, and then, we also do a lot of testing to make sure that we understand the whole health of the patient, because that comes into play so much when we’re making treatment decisions in myeloma. 

Katherine:

Yeah. What factors impact treatment decisions? 

Dr. Matous:

Well, there are so many. One of the key ones is fitness, and fitness is a term that myeloma doctors use and rely on tremendously. 

And fitness, more or less, falls into a couple different categories. It’s more complex than that, obviously, but generally speaking, it’s too old or too frail, or young and vigorous and I stress to my patients that vigorous or frail is not determined by chronological age. It’s determined by your physiologic age. That’s really critical, so determining what your patient’s overall fitness is, is really important in myeloma. And then, we have to assess the risk of myeloma. I think we’ll talk about this a little bit later, because not all myeloma is the same and we treat myelomas differently depending on risk, certainly. And then, patient preference is a huge part, because there are so many ways to treat myeloma these days that we explore options with the patients and sometimes patients have pretty strong opinions about, you know, one type of treatment or the other, for example. 

Katherine:

What advice do you have for patients and caregivers related to working with their healthcare team in choosing a therapy? 

Dr. Matous:

Yeah. I think the big thing is to do some research on your own, but really, ask questions when you see your physician. I mean, ask questions about, for example, what are my treatment options? Are there clinical trials that might be available to me? What’s on the cutting edge in myeloma? What are the standard therapies? What are the pros and cons? And a question I often counsel patients to ask when they’re seeking other opinions is if you had 100 people like me and you treated them this way, how many would do well and how many would not do so well, and prognosis, and so forth. And then, the other thing I think is really important sometimes is gauging how experienced your physician is in treating myeloma, because we actually have data that shows that patients who are treated in myeloma centers actually fair a little better than those who are not. 

Involving a myeloma expert in your care doesn’t necessarily mean you have to get your care at that center. It just means you may want a myeloma expert on your team. Pretty much every doctor I know welcomes a myeloma person on their team, because the field is so rapidly evolving. It’s really hard to keep up with for a lot of people. 

Katherine:

Yeah. That’s great advice, Dr. Matous. Thank you. Stem cell transplant is often considered for myeloma patients. Can you talk about who this treatment option might be appropriate for? 

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely, so we’ve known for decades that, what I call high-dose chemotherapy, also called stem cell transplant, is a very effective and very potent treatment of myeloma and we’ve shown that time and time again in clinical trials, including some recent ones that are published just in 2022.  

And so, high-dose chemotherapy and stem cell transplant is not for everyone. You have to be fit enough to undergo it, and this is not age determined. It’s fitness determined. And then, a lot of people live a long way from centers that perform high-dose chemotherapy and stem cell transplants. 

If patients have to travel hundreds of miles, then sometimes that comes into play. Hey, I just can’t do this. I can’t get the time off, and uproot, and bring a caregiver, and travel 300 miles to get this care, so sometimes that comes into play. Physician bias definitely comes into play. We know that some physicians are stronger proponents of high-dose chemotherapy and stem cell transplant, and I fall into that category, but we have other physicians that may not even bring it up as an option to their patients. We know, for example, that African Americans and other minorities are notoriously under-referred for high-dose chemotherapy and stem cell transplant. A lot of decisions go into that, and again, this is one of those situations where if you’re transplant-eligible, that means you’re young and vigorous, and on paper, a candidate. You want to go, at the very minimum, consult with physicians that do high-dose chemotherapy and stem cell transplant and hear about that option. 

Katherine:

Yeah. You mentioned high-risk myeloma earlier. How do you determine if a patient is high risk or low risk? 

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely, so this is not uniformly agreed upon among myeloma doctors, but in general, we assess risk based on a few different things. One is called staging, and we stage myeloma unlike any other cancer, so it’s not staged like breast cancer, or lung cancer, or prostate cancer. It’s staged according to something called R-ISS, RISS, and you get, basically, a one, two, or a three.  

Those are your stages, and in general, if your stage three, you have higher risk disease, but even more than that, we’re beginning to understand how myeloma cells misbehave at the genetic level, and we know that there are certain genetic findings inside the myeloma cell that can convey higher risk features. It’s important to stress to patients that these are not genetic findings that they were born with or can pass on through hereditary. 

These are findings that occurred during the life of the patient that occurred by chance and developed inside that cell that turned into myeloma, and those are the genetic changes that we’re talking about. And we know that certain of these genetic changes confer higher risk disease. And in general, Katherine, if I see 100 people with myeloma, about 85 of the 100 will fall into what I call a standard risk category and about 15 percent will fall into what we call the high-risk category. 

Katherine:

Okay. That’s really good to know. Thank you. There are several treatment classes for myeloma, such as immunomodulatory therapy and proteasome inhibitors, for example. And they’re often used together.  

So, what is a combination therapy and why is it used so frequently for myeloma?  

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely, so with learned over the years in myeloma that combining different types of drugs that work in different ways, we call those classes, so different classes of drugs, combining them together is the optimal treatment for myeloma. 

And back in the day, we used to use two drugs. Then, we learned that three drugs are better than two drugs, and now, we have data that four drugs are better than three drugs. And so, we bring in drugs from all kinds of different categories for our patients. And we even know that for the non-transplant-eligible patients, for the older patients, for example, that combining drugs from different classes is really, really important to get the best outcomes. And in general, the three classes that we use – the four classes that we use when we’re treating myeloma patients initially include the immunomodulatory drugs, and examples of those are lenalidomide, also called Revlimid. pomalidomide, also called Pomalyst.  

Thalidomide’s (Thalomid) an older drug, but we still occasionally use it.  

And then, we have the proteasome inhibitors. Examples of those are bortezomib (Velcade), carfilzomib (Kyprolis), and to a much lesser extent, there’s one called ixazomib (Ninlaro). And these days, we know that CD38 antibodies are really important and really getting their foothold into the initial treatment of myeloma.  

Examples of CD38 antibodies are daratumumab (Darzalex) or isatuximab. And then, usually, we combine these treatments with steroid medicines to sort of increase the effectiveness of the regiments. That’s how – those are the classes that we use when we’re treating myeloma. 

Katherine:

Okay and have you learned about adding one treatment to another to another through clinical trials or is trial and error? 

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely. We would not be where we are right now without the conduct of clinical trials. I always tell my patients by the time something’s approved in myeloma, and we had things approved in 2022, the field is already moving past that in clinical trials. It’s unbelievable. So, I’ll give you an example. When daratumumab, one of these antibodies, got approved by the FDA, already when it got approved by the FDA, we knew through clinical trials that were being conducted that combining it with other types of medicines was far more potent. 

And we have countless examples of this, so yeah. Absolutely, so every treatment that we use in myeloma, we discovered and developed through a clinical trial. And I always encourage my patients strongly to consider clinical trials, and then, we have to explain, because when patients hear clinical trials, and I could be deviating a little bit here, Katherine.  

They often think about experimentation and testing things that are unproven. In myeloma, we occasionally do that, but far and away, the overwhelming majority of our clinical trials are testing agents that we know are effective. We’re just trying to figure out what the best combination is and make sure that it’s safe for patients. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Dr. Matous, some of our viewers may have already been through some therapy at some level. Let’s dive into new and emerging treatment. CAR T-cell therapy has been approved for myeloma patients and it’s certainly a hot topic right now. Can you tell us about this treatment and who it might be right for? 

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely, so these T-cell therapies in myeloma are really exciting, and basically, how they work is T cells are cells that normally, in our body, they’re part of our immune system. When they see something foreign, usually, it’s a foreign infection or some kind. T cells go into kill mode and take out the foreign invader, and they’re supposed to do this with cells that are thinking about turning into cancer, but for various reasons, cancer cells can escape the T cells, and then, kind of brainwash the new system to say, hey. It’s okay if we coexist with you. No big deal. We’ll just hang out together. Okay? And that’s not okay. And so, in CAR T-cell therapy, what we do is we take the patient’s T cells.  

We remove them from the blood with a procedure called apheresis, which is a machine that many patients might be familiar with through their stem cell collections. 

It’s the same machine. And we collect these T cells. Then, they go to a laboratory where they are genetically modified in the laboratory using very sophisticated techniques to become myeloma killers. And we tell – we educate the T cells to become myeloma killers. We grow them up in sufficient numbers, and then, we return them to the patient. We just, basically, put them back in the patient’s bloodstream in the vein and they go and they are really effective at killing myeloma cells. And that’s CAR T-cell therapy, so it’s an amazing immune therapy. It’s way more complicated than I laid out, of course, but that’s the general thought behind it. 

Katherine:

What are the risks of this therapy? 

Dr. Matous:

Absolutely, so we have a lot of patients who come and ask about CAR T-cell therapy and think that it’s the same thing as getting daratumumab in the clinic or carfilzomib in the clinic.  

Get it and you’re on your way. Far from that, and so, CAR T-cell therapy has a lot of risks. The risks fall into a few different categories. The first risk is called CRS, which doesn’t stand for what you think it stands for. It stands for Cytokine Release Syndrome. This occurs when the T cells recognize the myeloma cell and kill it, and when they do this, a lot of substances get released in the body that can cause a lot of symptoms, like fever, or low blood pressure, or low oxygen, and this requires specialized management to shepherd people through this.  

This almost always occurs in about the first week of the treatment after the patients receive the CAR-T cells. In addition, patients who receive CAR-T cells can have what’s called neurologic toxicity that falls into many different categories. It can be something as simple as a headache, or a transient or temporary difficulty, you know, saying words or being confused, or in the most severe situation, even a seizure. 

This requires a lot of close monitoring for neuro toxicity. In addition, we know that patients that get CAR T-cell therapy are, for quite a while after they receive the CAR-T cells, an increased risk for infection. It’s very suppressing of the immune system, immunosuppressive. And lastly, a lot of our patients who go through CAR T-cell therapy have low blood counts for a long time and they have to be monitored for this, might need transfusions, or some different therapies. It’s a complicated therapy for sure. 

Katherine:

Yeah, so what questions should patients be asking their doctor when considering CAR T-cell therapy? 

Dr. Matous:

I think the first thing, of course, is am I a candidate, because the commercially approved CAR-T cells, there are very specific criteria for who’s a candidate, who could receive it. Okay, and then, you want to know, one, if you’re a candidate. Two, what the risks and benefits are. 

Three, are there alternatives besides CAR T-cell therapy. Is it too early or too late to do this? Should we think about maybe another clinical trial or one of the T-cell redirecting antibodies, for example? You want to ask those questions for sure. These treatments are tremendously expensive, of course, and so that may come into play, as well. You want to know what the experience of the center is with CAR T-cell therapy, I think, and then, you also want to know are there clinical research studies for which you might be eligible to have CAR-T cells, not just commercially available ones, because we have two that are commercially available right now, and we have scores of CAR T-cell treatments that are still in clinical trial. [22:32] 

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, thank you for that, Dr. Matous. 

I know many viewers will appreciate all of this information. Let’s switch gears now to another therapy we’ve been hearing about; bispecific antibodies. One has been recently approved for myeloma, teclistamab, so let’s start with what are bispecific antibodies and who might they be right for? 

Dr. Matous:

And strap on your seatbelt, because there’s a whole bunch of them coming, I think, for approval. So, the T-cell redirecting antibodies, it’s a different strategy for trying to get your T cells, the patient’s T cells, to attack the myeloma cells. And in CAR T-cell therapy, it’s a single infusion. That’s the treatment. And the bispecific antibodies that I often call T-cell redirecting antibodies, because they redirect the T cells to the myeloma cell, these are given over a continuous period and it might as long as you tolerate it, as long as it’s working. It might be for a year. And they are given either under the skin as a subcutaneous injection, or in the vein. 

And there are many, many different of these T-cell redirecting antibodies, the bispecific antibodies. How they work, I just do this with my patients. I hold up my hand and I say the bispecific antibodies have two hooks on them, and one hook recognizes the T cell and latches onto the T cell, and the other hook latches onto the myeloma cell. And then, what it does, it brings the T cell in proximity to the myeloma cell. Then, the T cell says “Oh, aha. I’m supposed to kill this myeloma cell,” and usually does it. Now, the part that connects the T cell and these bispecific antibodies is always the same. It’s CD3. However, the part that sticks on the myeloma cell, there are different targets, and you referred to teclistamab (Tecvayli), which was approved by the FDA, and that attaches to something on the outside of a myeloma cell called BCMA, BCMA. 

But we know that other bispecific antibodies that can attach to different markers or antigens on the outside of the myeloma cell and affect the same change, and so, I think these are going to be coming fast and furious. 

Katherine:

Who’s this class of treatment right for? 

Dr. Matous:

I think – well, again, the FDA approval right now is for people who have seen pretty much everything. You know, you’ve had a lot of treatments. You’ve seen all the different classes of the myeloma drugs, but in our clinical research trials right now, we’re testing these as an initial therapy, in second-line therapy, after stem cell transplants. They’re being tested pretty much in every scenario right now in clinical trials, so right now, it’s when you’ve exhausted the normal treatments and you’re considering CAR T-cell therapy, or you’re considering getting treated with a drug called selinexor (Xpovio), or looking at another clinical trial. That’s when it’s the time to ask about the bispecific antibodies. 

Katherine:

What are the risks and benefits of this therapy?  

Dr. Matous:

The risks are pretty similar to the risks from CAR T-cell therapy, so Cytokine Release Syndrome. That usually occurs during the first week. Neurologic toxicity is, I think, less frequent with the bispecific antibodies, but infections and low blood counts definitely a concern with these bispecific antibodies, requires a lot of monitoring without any doubt.  

Now, the other thing about the bispecific antibodies, there’s, right now, they’ve been in the realm of the larger centers, so myeloma centers is where people have been getting these bispecific antibodies, but there’s absolutely no question in my mind that these bispecific antibodies are going to be available through almost every general hematology, oncology practitioner’s office, but not for a while. The docs that aren’t used to giving these medicines are a little – they’re being quite cautious rolling them out in their practices right now. There are still a lot of questions as these roll out, and so, right now, I think teclistamab is still largely unavailable outside myeloma centers, but that’s going to change, I think, even over 2023 and definitely into 2024. 

Katherine:

Okay. That’s really good news. For patients who want to know more about bispecifics, what questions should they be asking their healthcare team? 

Dr. Matous:

Again, the same thing is – the same questions. Well, teclistamab is approved by the FDA. What other bispecifics are there? What about combinations? What about clinical trials? And then, that’s what you want to ask for sure. Then, how often do I need to come in the office? With teclistamab, the answer is weekly.  

If they say for how long, it’s until it quits working or you have side effects, and then you can’t take it anymore. That’s the way the FDA label is. And so, it’s a big commitment to go on these treatments, but they’re effective. You ask me about the effectiveness of these drugs and, essentially, all the studies with these different bispecifics, including teclistamab, have been studied initially in people who have seen every myeloma treatment. They’ve had an average of about six different myeloma treatments. 

They’ve seen all the drugs. They’re not working anymore. They’re in trouble. They’re in a pinch, and roughly, seven out of ten people have dramatic responses to these bispecifics when they’re treated, which we’ve never had anything like this at all in the myeloma world. 

Katherine:

Wow. Do the side effects go away at some point? 

Dr. Matous:

The side effects are completely manageable. Yeah and you can – by and large, you can adjust the bispecific, either the schedule or different things, to make these completely tolerable for patients. 

Katherine:

Okay. 

Dr. Matous:

Very few patients on our trials, with these bispecifics, who we have not been able to manage and, pretty much, handle all the – any side effect that occurs. 

Katherine:

Okay. That’s good. Are there other emerging myeloma therapies that patients should know about? 

Dr. Matous:

There are a bunch of other therapies. Looking at in myeloma, for sure, and a lot of these other therapies are – they’re exploring the same pathway where the proteasome inhibitors work, but in a little different way. 

And proteasome inhibitors, again, just to refresh your memory, are  Velcade or bortezomib, Kyprolis or carfilzomib, and there are different drugs that work in this area that are being explored. And also, for the immunomodulatory drugs, there are different what are called cell mod or cell-modifying drugs that are being developed. Also, at our recent hematology meeting last December where all the blood doctors get together, there was a lot of research presented looking at using different cells for attacking the myeloma, for bringing back an old friend, interferon, to fight the myeloma through a new sophisticated way. The field is just really going at breakneck speed right now. 

Katherine:

Where do clinical trials fit into myeloma care? 

Dr. Matous:

I’m biased, Katherine. I think in every step of your myeloma journey you should ask about a clinical trial, because clinical trials might be appropriate as initial therapy, second-line therapy, third-line therapy, post-transplant maintenance therapy. There are clinical trials available, pretty much, at every phase of myeloma care, and so, I think it’s important that you here about your clinical trial options when you’re talking with your physician. Now, for some folks, it’s going to be hard to get on a clinical trial. You might be a long way from a center that does very many clinical trials, but you should always, always ask about it and there are many resources for researching clinical trials that are out there, right? One example is you can call The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society and they have counselors on the phone that can guide you toward clinical trials. You can go to clinicaltrials.gov. You’re paying for it. Might as well use it and search clinical trials there. It’s a pretty easy site to use, as well. 

My answer is at every phase of your journey, whenever you’re considering a treatment or a new treatment for myeloma, you want to know what your clinical trial options are. 

Katherine:

How can patients and care partners stay informed about the latest myeloma research? You mentioned a couple of websites. Are there others? 

Dr. Matous:

There are. There are a bunch of these that are out there, right? There’s the Myeloma Crowd. There’s – you know, this webinar. The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society in the Rocky Mountain area, we have, every year, a blood cancer conference that we put on free for patients through The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society that reviews new goings on in the field of myeloma, so there’s a lot of information out there and just a little bit of effort on the web. You can find great resources. Again, the ones I mentioned earlier I think are my top ones. Particularly, the IMF, the International Myeloma Foundation, because the physicians who run that and the people who run that, they made sure that everything that’s on there is entirely believable. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Okay. Let’s get to a few audience questions that we received before the webinar. Kendall writes, “I’m in the maintenance stage following initial diagnosis and treatment. At first relapse, is it appropriate to push for stronger treatment in hopes of a cure?” 

Dr. Matous:

Yeah, so the answer to that has changed. The answer is yes, and so, the – it used to be said in myeloma that your best treatment was your first treatment. Then, if you relapsed, that the treatments didn’t work as well, and the remissions did not last as long. Throw it out, so now, we get multiple chances to get really deep remissions in patients, and we should be every bit as greedy when we’re treating relapsed disease, at least initially, as we are when we treat disease at the very beginning. We know, for example, that there are many second-line therapies. I’ll just throw out some examples – daratumumab, pomalidomide dex, daratumumab Revlimid dex, daratumumab Velcade dex.  

Not to mention, the T-cell therapies that can put patients in remissions that are so deep that we can’t even find myeloma cells using very sophisticated molecular techniques, so be greedy. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Okay. Good advice. PEN community member, Greg, sent in this question. “Can you discuss any future or potential changes to using stem cell transplant for myeloma patients?” How would you counsel patients who do not want to pursue a transplant as a treatment option? 

Dr. Matous:

So, for stem cell transplant in myeloma, for years, it’s been the standard of care for suitable patients. And every couple years, I liken this to that game we used to play called King of the Hill growing up where stem cell transplants, King of the Hill, and everyone tries to knock stem cell transplant off the hill. And so far, it really hasn’t happened. And so, transplants still, I think, an important part of the overall care for suitable patients. 

For patients who are eligible and safe enough to undergo transplant. However, not all – now, will this be challenged in the future? And the answer is – I think the next challenger, and this will be a serious challenger, will be CAR T-cell therapy. And so, we have to figure out if CAR T-cell therapy or the bispecific antibodies are safe enough to give at the beginning and as effective as stem cell transplant and what the long-term side effects, how they might differ, as well, so that question is going to be tackled in the myeloma word, but it’s going to be several years until we have an answer there, for sure.  

So, for my patients who are otherwise candidates for stem cell transplant, but who don’t want to do it, usually, I’ll say, “You may change your mind in the future. In myeloma, it’s important to keep all your options open and you should at least discuss with the transplant center collecting and freezing away your stem cells for a rainy day to keep that option open to you.” So, even you’re thinking of not doing it, it might be a good idea, it probably is a good idea, to harvest and store your stem cells at a transplant center. 

And then, if you’re not going to do transplant up front, they key is to stay on prolonged maintenance therapy.  

We know that that’s one of the keys for making survival as long as possible in patients who don’t do a transplant is to continue on ongoing maintenance therapy as long as possible. Don’t curtail your therapy just because you’re not doing a transplant. 

Katherine:

Right. Okay. Well, thanks for that, Dr. Matous.  

Those were all great questions. Please continue to send them in to questtion@powerfulpatients.org and we’ll work to get them answered on future programs.  

So, Dr. Matous, as we close out the program, we’ve definitely learned that the field of myeloma is advancing very quickly. Would you share with us why you’re hopeful? 

Dr. Matous:

Yeah. It’s because for – I’ve been doing this quite a while and I always used to tell my patients if you just hang around. 

If you stay in the game, something else is going to come that we don’t even know what it is right now that’s going to impact your life, your quality of your life, the longevity of your life, and be a good treatment for you. And so far, that’s been the case. And right now, with the T-cell therapies, I’m really, really excited about how they can impact the cure of our patients. I also think that the basic research that’s going on in myeloma right now, and this is done by the real smart scientists, not the clinicians like me, but the really smart people that work in the laboratory. Learning how myeloma cells misbehave at very amazing levels, and when we learn that, it almost always results in a treatment that benefits our patients.  

And so, I think that we have every reason to be optimistic for our patients with myeloma, because of all the treatments that are coming out that we know about, that we know are around the corner, and for those that we don’t even have an idea what they are yet. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, it seems like there’s a lot to be hopeful about in myeloma care. Dr. Matous, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure. 

Dr. Matous:

Well, the pleasure’s been mine. I love talking to myeloma patients and I would just encourage you to keep getting all the information you can. The field’s moving really fast. Just keep up with it and don’t lose hope. 

Katherine:

Yeah. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us.