PODCAST: Thriving With an MPN | Managing Symptoms and Treatment Side Effects

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In this podcast, MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju, discusses strategies for managing symptoms and treatment side effects for people living with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Pemmaraju also shares advice for communicating with your healthcare team and provides an update on the latest MPN treatment and research.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is a continuation of our Thrive Series and we’re going to discuss coping with MPN symptoms and managing treatment side effects. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju. Dr. Pemmaraju, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, thank you, Katherine and team. Just an honor to be here. 

I’m Naveen Pemmaraju, a professor of leukemia at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. And I also serve as one of our executive directors for the MD Anderson Cancer Network, and I specialize in MPNs and rare leukemia. So, happy to join you once again, Katherine.   

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today, taking time out of your schedule. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, when it comes to living and thriving within an MPN, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. How can symptoms and side effects impact life with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Katherine, I’m glad you asked about that because I think before we get into the science and the pathobiology and all these complex things, it really starts with the patient. And as you and your team and others have really noted, the MPN for many of our patients, it is a chronic, often lifelong journey. And we really need to reemphasize in this modern era, the patient-centered experience and the caregiver experience.  

And so I would emphasize a few things. One is that our MPNs are oftentimes so-called invisible diseases to other people. So, this phrase that just really is tough for us to hear for our patients and our loved ones, oh, you don’t look that you’re sick. You don’t look like you have cancer. So, it emphasizes the internal part of the internal medicine, that’s one. Number two, it reminds you that you cannot tell on the external what kind of a war, a cytokine war that is going on inside of a patient. And so even though the blood counts are normal, the spleen is okay, the treatment paradigm is going okay, we don’t know what’s really going on. So, that’s why our great friend and colleague Ruben Mesa invented and pioneered the MPN symptom burden to really nail down what’s going on.  

And then third is our treatments, Katherine, our treatments, while overall halting or stopping or helping the MPN can then introduce a whole other round of toxicity, side effects, and so we need to manage that.  

So, both the disease itself and the treatments, two separate entities, and that’s what we need to be monitoring in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right, well, thank you for that. As we get into the discussion, Dr. Pemmaraju, it’s important to note that some of the issues we’ll be talking about today are symptoms of the MPN, and others may be treatment-related side effects. So, let’s start with side effects. What are the most common issues associated with the main MPN treatment classes? Let’s start with JAK inhibitors.   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s exactly the way I think about it too. So, with our JAK inhibitors, we now have 10 years since the approval of the ruxolitinib, the first in class. And now we have two more approved agents which are known as fedratinib (Inrebic) and pacritinib (Vonjo), and hopefully a fourth agent, momelotinib, which is under regulatory review at this time.  

So, we have a whole class of drugs. They have some similarities and then some differences, but in general, the JAK inhibitor class are well-tolerated drugs, but each of them has some side effects.   

I’d like to go through them just as a top-line overview. It’s very important. Number one for the ruxolitinib agent, the one that’s been around longest. This one is usually well-tolerated as we said, but you do have to look out for a few things. Non-melanoma skin cancers can be increased in some of our patients, so the importance of dermatology and skin evaluations. Some infections such as viral herpes, zoster, and shingles, so we need to be aware of that. And then weight gain, weight gain is something that we’re seeing more over time as we appreciate the drug, particularly as we move it into earlier lines of therapy, such as p.- vera.

As I look at the other agents, the fedratinib already carries an FDA black box warning for an encephalopathy syndrome, thought to be Wernicke’s encephalopathy, which can affect the brain. But really an encephalopathy syndrome, which means we have to check thiamine levels and replace them and be aware of that. That’s vitamin B1 and also GI side effects with that agent. And then finally, the pacritinib agent has a few toxicity and side effects.  

Again, all these are on the package label insert, well-known. Some GI side effects, particularly in the first few months, including diarrhea, and we need to watch out for bleeding and these kinds of effects, especially in the opening days and weeks of the agent. So, again, JAK inhibitors, well-tolerated class, oral medicines, but can have some notable side effects that we have to follow together in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about interferon? What are some common side effects?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, great. So, the interferon class, which actually now is a class of drugs. We started out as let’s call it the regular Interferon, which was multiple times a week dosing. Then the Pegylated Interferon, which went down to once a week. And then now we have the ropeginterferon (Besremi), which is the recently approved agent in p. vera, which is every two weeks spaced out to every month.  

So, as you said, in this class of drugs, what’s old is new again. These drugs have actually been around longer than the JAK inhibitors, interestingly. You do have to be mindful. These are a very serious set of drugs. We usually set aside a good amount of time to talk about the side effects, and they are many historically.  

The main ones include psychiatric neurological side effects. So, it can cause a depressed mood, change in the mood, even depression. Hugely important, so everyone needs to be aware of that, including the caregivers. It can cause autoimmune side effects, so such as thyroid, liver, these type of side effects. And then finally, of course, any of these Interferons can cause a flu-like profile, you know, not feeling well, particularly in the beginning days.

So, we usually try to mitigate it with lots of education to the patient, the caregiver, remind all members of the team. If you can, maybe even start at a low dose and escalate up, which is what we’re trying to do in the clinic. And then really close monitoring for stuff that you can monitor, the thyroid, the liver, the mental side effects, as we said. Usually most of our patients over time, most of them do get used to the drug. So, there is some kind of an immune component to it, but you can have side effects at any time.  

I would say also, Katherine, that these later forms of the Interferon continue to improve. And so we’re seeing either less and less side effects or at least better managed, better tolerated, more understanding of these. So, a great class of drugs. And I should also say that our colleagues around the world are starting to combine the two classes of drugs for patients with myelofibrosis. And so we need to be paying attention to those combinatorial approaches. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about hydrea?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, right. Yeah, so hydroxyurea, we also have to mention that.  

One of the workhorse medicines of our field. We use it in all the MPNs.  

Again, an older class of drugs such as the Interferons that have been around prior to the JAK inhibitors. Used in a variety of diseases, both benign and malignant, used in sickle cell anemia. Historically has been used in both blood and solid tumor cancers, but we use it very commonly in MPNs. Almost all of our viewers are familiar. Hydroxyurea is not a benign drug. It is a chemotherapeutic agent. You know, you have to handle it with care.  

And so it’s got a few side effects. It can cause some fatigue in some patients. One of the more notable classical side effects is an ulcer formation, either in the mouth area or in the lower extremities, such is in the feet, so, you know, grossly visible. It can cause some fever and not feeling well in some patients. I will say again, a lot of these drugs are generally well tolerated. Most of our patients are 60, 70, 80, and older, but you can certainly have those side effects. A lot of these drugs, Katherine, can affect the skin.  

I did mention that earlier. So, ruxolitinib, even the interferons, hydrea, they can all cause skin lesions, maybe some of them associated with non-melanoma skin cancer, such as squamous cell and basal cell. So, one amazing part of the practice has been close association with our dermatology colleagues, not something I would have expected 10, 15 years ago. And that’s been a helpful part of the practice.   

So, I think it’s a point where I can emphasize that, in addition to having us as the MPN or blood cancer team, Katherine, the pandemic has reminded us the importance of primary care team as well. So, it’s really two teams, someone checking the cholesterol, cancer screenings, skin checkups, mammogram, PSAs. And then in coordination with your MPN team and then everyone working together, so colonoscopies, et cetera. So, just a plug there, especially the last three, four years where people have gotten behind to make sure that we’re keeping up with that part of the deal as well.  

Katherine Banwell:

With all the testing, yeah.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Exactly, right.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned a couple of treatment side effects and how they’re managed, but in general, across the board, are treatment side effects managed in the same way, in similar ways?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Now, that’s a great question. So, here I’ve given you this nice list, kind of academic version of the list, but boy, no, right. And all my patients and everyone out there knows that there’s some varied practices. You know, the varied practices are not only, as you say, across the country and across the world, but also even in our own clinics, patient to patient. The MPNs have humbled and taught us that one person’s MPN can be starkly different from the next, so on and so forth.

So, I’m not just talking about the difference between PV, ET, myelofibrosis, and systemic mastocytosis. I’m talking about one person’s MF is completely different than the other. I think there are a couple of things I didn’t mention. So, pruritus, or itching is one of the great symptoms really. It’s not a side effect usually, but it’s a symptom of the MPN. There are some ways to treat that in the clinic.  

Fatigue really has no great way to treat it. Usually when you introduce one of the JAK inhibitors that can improve. On the side effects side, as we were mentioning, a lot of these are unsatisfying things. The flu-like symptoms of the interferon, the weight gain of the JAK inhibitor. So, I think what you’re saying is so correct, and let me admit it, I’m going to be the first to admit it, there’s not really a good standard playbook.  

But on the other hand, I think personalization. As we’ve always said, in our rare disease space, if you have a disease, it’s not rare to you. It’s what you have, it’s what your spouse is dealing with, your loved one, your mother with you. And so, I would advocate here that there’s a personalized playbook there. I would say that there are three guiding principles though. One is when you have side effects of a medicine, the first thing to do is let your healthcare provider team know. I know that sounds obvious, but here I am in the clinic and sometimes we don’t find out until later.

And so some of that is because the patient says to themselves, let’s tough it out. Or they may not know, or they may not be able to, or it may not be easy to communicate with our healthcare teams. Two is when you’re evaluating, every patient’s case is different. This is not specific advice, as you said, at the top of the hour here. But in a general sense, you really need to evaluate if the side effect is peculiar or particular to just that patient case, so idiosyncratic, unpredictable, notable. 

Or, is it a general expected sort of something that you thought could already happen and then go with it from there? And then finally, the concept of dose interruptions, dose reductions, treatment holidays, something very important. So, basically a lot of different ways you can go, but no standard or uniform playbook in our MPN field, as you and the team well knows.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that Dr. Pemmaraju. I’d like to move on to common MPN symptoms now. Let’s start with myelofibrosis. What are the symptoms associated with this particular MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Excellent question. So, for the myelofibrosis, generally thought to be our most advanced of the MPNs, can be low risk, intermediate to high risk. We’ll focus our comments here on intermediate to high risk, the more advanced MF. This is important because not only what I’m going to tell you is sort of a subjective list of symptoms, but because of the work of my great friend, Ruben Mesa, who pioneered the MPN symptom burden, we’ve actually been able to, as he and I say, quantify the unquantifiable.  

So, take subjective information and turn it into objective. For example, we know that among the three MPNs, PV, ET, and MF, that fatigue is by far the most common symptom that our patients report. It’s a fatigue that’s more than the general feeling tired at the end of the day. It’s sometimes a wiped-out fatigue. Some of our patients will have pruritus or itching. Many of our patients will have early satiety, which means getting full too early because either the spleen is too big, decreasing the appetite. Bone pain and neuropathy can happen in our MF patients. Brain fog and decreased concentration, huge issue among a lot of our patients.

And finally, because of the low blood counts, if a myelofibrosis patient is anemic, they can have those issues. So, fatigue, shortness of breath, even chest pain and palpitations. If the platelets are too low, or too high for that matter, bleeding or clotting.  

So, the problem with myelofibrosis, it ranges the gamut from the low-risk patients, who can be treated maybe even as a PV or ET observation or not as advanced treatment paradigm, all the way to intermediate high risk where patients are cachectic, losing weight, not feeling well, drenching night sweats. And all of these can be captured on not only the scoring systems but also the symptom burden scales. And to be honest with you, this is the majority of what our patients are feeling outside of the blood counts and outside of the objective information. So much so to the point, Katherine, where a patient can present with these symptoms solely, without ever having a blood count or a bone marrow or anything, and then it leads to the work of it.   

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating. What about symptoms for polycythemia vera?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so this is a great theme that you’ve got going here, which is know your body. If you know your body, then you’re able to tell what’s abnormal or normal. p. vera can be a bit more subtle.  

Oftentimes patients with p. vera can have a normal life expectancy and the longer term series in Europe show that it’s basically about the same life expectancy as the general population or slightly lower. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Patients with p.  vera can have an unbelievable symptom burden, either from the hyperviscosity of the hematocrit, the blood level being too high or the cytokine storm, that I mentioned, that makes people feel not well. So fatigue, brain fog, feelings of sluggishness, feeling too full, those are common in p. vera.  

The treatments are aimed at trying to make that better. So, phlebotomy to bring the hematocrit down below 45 can make you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, decrease the brain fog. If you’re using either the standard treatments of hydrea or Interferon, and then, of course, the baby aspirin to prevent clots, heart attacks, stroke. The newer agents in p. vera include the ropeginterferon that we mentioned earlier, clinical trials, such as the PTG-300 that I’m a part of, that try to really keep the blood levels normal all the time.  

And so hopefully help to improve the quality of life, decrease the chance of having a clot, and also hopefully try to make patients feel better from these aspects.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about essential thrombocythemia or ET? 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

ET, again, just like PV, you can have a lot of patients who are either incidentally diagnosed or not too much of a symptom burden. But again, here, the blood counts don’t tell the story. You can have “low risk ET” which is defined as less than 60 or no prior blood clots. So, you can be 43 years old, diagnosed with ET, your blood counts aren’t that high, but yet you’re still feeling overwhelming fatigue, itching. You’re seeing flashing things in your eyes called scotomas. You’re having small nerve or vascular issues called erythromelalgias. It’s a very elusive and difficult disease, particularly for our young patients. So, in ET, again, the same set of symptoms can happen. This fatigue, itching, the brain fog, concentration, bleeding, and or clotting.  

And so again, the goal of therapy is to mitigate those. If you’re young, a lot of patients are either observed or baby aspirin. If you’re older than 60 or have high risk features, then again, cytoreductive therapy. The other aspect I should mention is you can start out with one of these and it transforms into the other. That’s called clinical or phenotypic shifts. You can start out as an ET, go to PV. You can start out as PV and go to myelofibrosis. You can start out as myelofibrosis and go to acute myeloid leukemia. So, that’s why follow-up, even over years, decades, is important, preferably with an expert team, because you never know when one of these things wants to transform. And then your side effect, or I should say your symptom profile therefore changes with that transformation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s obvious that there’s some symptom overlap along with this.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Right. 

Katherine Banwell:

And so I’m wondering what the strategies are for managing these. Let’s start with fatigue first.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Let’s do that.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do you manage that?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

This is one of the tougher parts of what we do. I’m glad you’re pinning me down to say it because really this is the majority of what we need to be talking about in the clinic. I’m going  to just be honest, you know, with all the scientific breakthroughs and everything, some of these are limited. The fatigue, this is some of the strategies I use and some of the experts in the field. I think one is managing the underlying disease. So, as you mentioned, if you have high-risk, intermediate to high-risk myelofibrosis, one of the great findings of our field is the JAK inhibitor class generally helps to improve symptom burden.  

So, that is the splenomegaly, the fatigue, the pruritus. Maybe not so much the itching, but some of these other things. So, I think treating the underlying disease, that’s okay. Number two is many clinics, Onc centers around the country are starting to open up a supportive care or fatigue center clinic. So, I am referring several of my patients there, we’re talking about diet, nutrition, exercise. We used to never talk about these things. Ruben Mesa has found that doing yoga and meditation can genuinely actually help the pathobiology to reduce the cytokine storm and improve the fatigue and quality of life. 

Dr. Angela Fleischman, our colleague at UC Irvine, has done work suggesting that possibly an antioxidant diet such as the Mediterranean diet can help the overall general fatigue, well-being, wellness. And then of course I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention here too, sometimes fatigue is outside of the MPN. Have you had your TSH or thyroid checked? What about your vitamin D levels? How are you doing on these PCP general checks? Things that may be contributing to the life and the happiness.

And finally, let me make a plug for mental health. I don’t know how much we were emphasizing before the COVID pandemic, but after, the last three or four years have been tough. Healthcare providers, caregivers, patients themselves, mental health checkup, that can also be contributing to fatigue, not getting out of bed, in addition to the organic medical problems. So, let me advocate a multifactorial approach, scientifically summed up as treating what you can with the underlying MPN, fine, treating the side effects and symptoms of the MPN, as you said. 

And then, other, which can be a huge bucket, particularly as we get older, to not forget about that. Again, checking the thyroid level. And then when you’re on these different treatments, you can personalize it. Interferon, obviously, has its own separate set of side effects and then of course the other agents. So, I think that may be the best way to approach it. Maybe a three-bucket approach. The MPN itself, and then the treatment itself, and then the other, something like that.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, yeah. And as you’ve mentioned, it’s all going to be personalized and individualized, because what’s going to work for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hear, hear, well said to that. You know, you think you make a great diagnosis in the clinic, someone’s having fatigue, they’re on therapy for your MPN. You check the TSH, it’s wildly abnormal. Okay, you refer them to endocrine. Six months later, the thyroid level is completely normal now on thyroid medicine. And yet, the fatigue, brain fog, everything is still not clear.  

The MPN is under good control. What gives? That’s the difficult part of these diseases. So, I really love what you said about the personalization and to keep looking and keep trying.   

Katherine Banwell:

What might an increase in symptoms mean? Does it mean that the disease is progressing or that maybe it’s time to change therapies?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, possibly. So, with all this objective evidence, there’s different buckets of disease progression. And some of them are objective and obvious, rising spleen, increasing blasts, or leukemia cells in the peripheral blood. The start of transfusion dependency for either anemia or platelets that weren’t there before. Sometimes, there are obvious things that you can point to, but there are a couple of scenarios where it’s not as obvious. You just named one. One is increasing symptom burden profile. You see, sometimes you have to think about, is it the sequela of the treatment itself or is it disease progression?  

I’ll give an example. If you start on an Interferon product and the dose is too high, you may be feeling not so great from the Interferon. But maybe in that case, a simple dose reduction was the answer because then you’re still getting the anti-disease activity, less side effects and all that. So, I’ll answer your question by saying possibly, but it can’t be the whole story. So, increasing symptoms is a harbinger, it’s a red flag. In the clinic, it means pause. Workup, is this a subject of the treatment itself? Is it because the disease is progressing? Do we need to do a restaging and workup, whether that means a bone marrow biopsy, whatever that means?

Or again, let’s put that other in there. What about the other comorbidities? Do you have class one heart failure, that’s now class three and you’re retaining fluid? And that’s why you’re short of breath and you actually need an echo and a cardiologist and an evaluation of your diuresis. So, I think that’s important, but the key is don’t blow it off, right? So, increasing symptom in MPN is telling you something isn’t right, and we need to check it out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right, and for the patient, tell your healthcare team about it.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Communicate always. I think what we see is people are so proper and so compassionate and so kind and collegial, and that’s beautiful. But actually in the MPNs and all these rare blood cancers where so little is known and so little is obvious, communication is the key.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’d like to make some time now to answer questions from the audience.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great. 

Katherine Banwell:

And here are a few we received prior to the program. Stephanie writes, I have ET and I’m not being treated. Do you have advice for the watch and wait period? I’m anxious about the disease changing and don’t know what I’m waiting for. So, before you answer the question, Dr. Pemmaraju, would you define this term, watch and wait?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

I will. And to Stephanie and everyone out there, this is a great question. I will say half the folks I talk to actually call it watch and worry, okay. Some people call it watch and wait, and as Stephanie’s saying, some people call it watch and worry.   

Yeah, the concept is threefold. One is that there are many cancers, many cancers, including blood cancers, that can be caught so early on that they don’t require treatment. A lot of patients with CLL, chronic lymphocytic leukemia, ET, as Stephanie mentioned, in the solid tumor. It’s very common to be diagnosed with a prostate cancer that’s low grade, early stage that can be observed. Number two is in ET, there is a science behind it.   

What we found in our studies, and they can be updated over time and you’ll see those, the traditional is that if you’re below the age of 60 and/or you’ve had no blood clot, thrombotic event, that’s considered low risk. And the treatment can be observation, perhaps adding in a baby aspirin to prevent against blood clots if there’s no contraindication. Now what’s magic about that age 60, obviously as you know, it’s not magic. It’s more of a statistical, continuous variable algorithm that says around that time, the risk of blood clots goes up. And so then you’d consider cytoreductive therapy at that point. Now there’s exceptions to that.

Many of our young patients are on therapy, but there’s usually some reason for that. Some high-risk feature, wildly uncontrolled blood counts, for example, symptom burden, some other high-risk features. So, it’s a suggestion. It’s a guideline, not an absolute. And then the third part of it is, the what do you do in that time? And that’s the frustrating thing. And I think that’s what Stephanie’s getting to.  

Again, that’s why I said the watch and worry versus watch and wait. Some of it is, how are you feeling outside of this? Some patients take it as a great news. Hey, you have this blood cancer, that’s not good news. But the good news is it’s probably not going to be active for a long time, we can, “just watch it.” But some people, as Stephanie is saying, take it the opposite way. What do you mean I got a blood cancer? I got something lurking in my body. You’re telling me it’s there, you know it’s there. And so what’s up with that? And the concept there is that some of these situations like low-risk ET, we found that if you treat too early, too aggressively, you can actually do harm.  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh. 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

So, that’s the key. These chemo drugs are not benign as you had me discuss earlier. They have toxicity, side effects, short-term, long-term. So, it’s a risk-benefit thing. If the risk far outweighs the benefit, as in the younger patient with no symptoms, no high-risk features, observation is okay. But at some point, when it turns, that’s the threshold.  

So, really the key is, if we believe these are stem cell blood cancer disorders, we need to be thinking about and designing therapies with minimal to no toxicity. Something that actually modifies the disease early on and something that leads to long-term outcomes. And we don’t have that yet in ET. We’re working on that in PV and myelofibrosis. So, stay tuned for that. And then finally, let me also add, this is an important point, not everybody gets it. This watch and wait versus watch and worry. So, I’m glad Stephanie brought that up because it’s not always good news, uniformly, when you tell someone, good news is you don’t have to do anything bad news, there’s something there.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. Jess wrote in with this question. I’ve been experiencing bone pain and neuropathy. Is there anything that can eliminate or reduce these symptoms?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great question, and it ties into our earlier question about the MPN symptom burden. On the original MPN-10 scale that Ruben and others pioneered, you will see both of those. You will see the bone pain, neuropathy.  

Now there’s been, you know, different narrowing down of these questionnaires and things, but in general, our patients do have these and that’s across the board. So, not only myelofibrosis but also our patients with PV and ET. These are among the most frustrating, I would say. Again, as you would expect, if you are advanced enough and you’re getting treatment, you hope that the treatment itself, whether it’s the Interferon or the JAK inhibitors or whatever you’re doing, clinical trial, hopes to alleviate those. But it doesn’t all the time.

Then the second issue is, these are likely the result of a cytokine storm or increased cytokines, these protein messengers that are abnormally high in our patients with MPNs. There’s varying unsatisfying things that people do. Sometimes we give antihistamines for people with bone pain. So that’s these over-the-counter sinus allergy medicines. Interestingly, the Claritins and the Zyrtecs, these type of medications, that can sometimes help in MPN bone pain. And then also for the neuropathy, these common neuropathy drugs that everybody knows, the gabapentins and all of these drugs are used frequently.  

There’s no doubt in my clinic and everybody else’s, but the varying levels of success. So, I think it speaks to the fact that these two are kind of from the MPN itself. And treating the underlying MPN is still usually your best strategy, using these, borrowing these medications, from the other aspects.

And then finally, my other plug here, which has kind of been a theme here, hopefully it resonates, and it doesn’t sound generic or unnecessary, is these things can sometimes be something else. Okay, bone pain and neuropathy can be something else. So, we do have cases of people having frequent falls, really serious stuff. In those cases, I refer those patients to a neurologist. Nerve conduction studies right, very advanced studies in the couple of cases that are so severe that it’s beyond thinking that it’s just due to the MPN.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, as a researcher, what are new and emerging therapies on the horizon in MPN care?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, Katherine, I’m glad you asked because I’m proud to tell you here, at the end of 2023, that we’ve now entered a new golden era of therapies for MPNs. Your group, and others, have led the way in advocating, but for so many years, honestly, we didn’t have many breakthroughs or new medicines. And now we literally have something we’re hearing about once a month. I think this golden era is divided into four buckets, Katherine, and that’s why I’m so excited for our patients and their caregivers.

Number one is novel JAK inhibitors. So, beyond the approved ruxolitinib, fedratinib, and now pacritinib, we have a fourth one that’s under consideration, that’s called momelotinib. Hopefully, we’ll have that approved by the end of the year. And there are actually other drugs around the world. So, not just in the U.S. and North America that are being developed as a further JAK inhibitor. So, just like we’ve seen in CML with the TKIs for BCR-ABL after the imatinib Gleevec medicine, hopefully, we have seven to 10 choices for our patients.  

Number two is the combinatorial approach of a JAK inhibitor plus something else. And that’s a field that I’m personally very involved in and helping to lead. The concept there is you take the known workhorse drug, the JAK inhibitor, use it as the backbone, and then add in the second agent. We started to do those studies in patients who were already starting to lose a response and we added in the second agent, those were called suboptimal studies.

And then now we’re moving those drugs into the frontline setting in international global randomized studies. So, stay tuned, let’s see how those go. But the concept is, can you take a new agent, whether it’s a BET inhibitor, a bromodomain inhibitor, a Bcl-xL inhibitor, PI3 Kinase, et cetera, and combine it with the JAK inhibitor? The third bucket that’s even more exciting to many people is that of novel agents standing alone by themselves. Now you’ve had either a JAK inhibitor or some other therapy for your myelofibrosis. That didn’t work for whatever reason. Now you’re looking for a completely new strategy.  

An explosion of research, not just in the lab, which we’ve had for the last 10 years, but over the last three or four years, amazingly, even despite the COVID pandemic. I would say dozens, really dozens of trials that are what you would consider beyond or non-JAK inhibitor therapy. Some of them include telomerase inhibition, with the imetelstat agent, for example. And so the concept here is, can you now hit the myelofibrosis in a completely different pathway?

And the answer clearly is yes. And those results have been tested now in the lower stages, the earlier stages, phase one and two. And you’re starting to see those drugs enter into the phase two and phase three. We eagerly await those results if there can be a viable beyond JAK inhibitor. And then finally, if that wasn’t exciting enough, there’s a fourth bucket, which is thinking about specifically the anemia myelofibrosis. We’ve never really historically done that. We’ve had older drugs, danazol, steroids, growth factor shots, blood transfusions.  

But now here you see both pharmaceutical interest, as well as academic interest, in developing agents that either specifically target the anemia of MF or both, the MF and the anemia. And that could be a game changer for our patients in the next five years. So, Katherine, a wealth of exploding research that I’m personally very excited about that gives me and our field hope, momentum, and enthusiasm going into 2024.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to end with a question that we usually start within our Thrive Series. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, I really love that phrase so much because it’s meaningful to me.  

You know, you’re talking about something that resonates with me and my patients, which is not just living with the MPN, but you’re talking about thriving with an MPN. That’s so resonant to us. I think really, I would go for three parts to that.  

One is that it’s an acknowledgment or a complete understanding of the disease. So, not denial, the opposite of denial, whatever that is, Katherine. So, understanding as much as you can about the disease which is, I encourage people to Google, look up on the internet. I just, what I want you to do is couple that with talking about it in context with your provider. I think the worry that people have is you’re at your home midnight, you’re Googling stuff, it may or may not be right.

So, anyway, so just do that, but then bring the information to the next visit. So, fully understanding and learning as much as you can in your own way. Number two is to be able to have a quality of life that is not just living with the disease, but actually being successful at your relationships, your work, whatever it is that brings you meaning and joy in life. And that sometimes has to do with the MPN paradigm, sometimes has to do with the other stuff we said.  

But I think, doing that, not despite the fact that you have the MPN, but acknowledging it with that, right? And then I think the third aspect is, if you have some way or some platform to be able to express yourself with the MPN because it’s such a rare disease, we think maybe only four out of 100,000 people worldwide get these. A lot of patients, not for everybody, by the way, but a lot of patients are thriving on support groups. 

It used to be you have to be in person, that’s very difficult to do with rare diseases. But now online, social media, a lot of different ways to get involved. Whether someone’s an introvert or an extrovert, whether someone wants to be private or public, all those things are hugely important, so it’s a personal decision. But for many, they want to get out there, and it’s not necessarily this scientific information exchange, although that’s good. But the support and encouragement and comradery of talking to other patients about what we’re talking about.  

It is, in fact, a little bit more facile to do it with the more common diseases, breast cancer, all of these things. And it’s much more difficult, social media online has opened that up. So, to me, I think that’s a kind of mix that I’ve been seeing in my patients. And that leads to empowerment. It leads to taking control of the things that can be controlled, leaving the things that can’t be controlled to what needs to happen. And then an understanding and anticipation of things that may happen in the next few visits, in the next few years. I think that’s how people can thrive with these MPNs. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. And that’s a hopeful message to leave our audience with Dr. Pemmaraju. Thank you so much for joining us today.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, thank you, Katherine, and hats off to you and the team for not only keeping the advocacy and information going but during this pandemic time, becoming an essential source of information for our patients and getting the word out there. So, thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, thank you. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.  

PODCAST: HCP Roundtable: Shared Decision-Making in Myeloproliferative Neoplasm (MPN) Care

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What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care? How should fellow MPN specialists explain disease progression to patients and care partners? In this HCP-to-HCP roundtable discussion, experts Dr. Gabriela Hobbs and Natasha Johsnon share best practices for helping your MPN patients play an active role in managing their health.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia, and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital and is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. 

Natasha Johnson, is an Advanced Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for people living with MPNs with kindness, patience, and humanity. Natasha also speaks at conferences to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research, and treatment.

See More from Empowering MPN Providers to Empower Patients (EPEP)

Transcript:

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. My name is Dr. Nicole Rochester, I’m a pediatrician and the CEO of Your GPS Doc. This program is for providers who desire to empower their patients and families. In this Patient Empowerment Network program, we connect MPN expert voices to discuss enhancing physician-patient communication and shared decision-making in MPN care. Some of the topics we’re going to cover today include how to help your MPN patients play an active role in managing their care, healthcare provider recommended strategies for managing disease burden to minimize disease impact on MPN patients’ lives, the importance of advanced practice clinicians on the health care team of MPN patients, clinical trials and the importance of nurses addressing this topic with their patients and families, as well as cultural humility in action.

I’m thrilled to be joined by MPN experts, Dr. Gabriela  Hobbs, Director of the Adult Leukemia Services at Massachusetts General Hospital and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Hobbs leads multiple investigator-initiated clinical trials in MPN as well as non-interventional trials, assessing outcomes for patients with MPN.

I am also thrilled to be joined by Natasha Johnson, an Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for patients living with MPN. Ms. Johnson also works to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research and treatment. Thank you both for joining me for this important conversation.

Natasha Johnson:

So glad to be here. Thank you.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Thank you so much.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

So I’d like to start by talking about the MPN care team and best practices for shared decision-making. We hear a lot about shared decision-making in healthcare. I would say for some, it’s more of a buzzword than an actual practice. I’m sure that you all agree that it’s incredibly important and really a core for the type of care that we should provide patients and their families, so I’d love to hear from each of you about what does that actually mean? What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care. And we’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Great question. I think shared decision-making can take many different forms in many of our clinical encounters, and I think one of the luxuries that we have in myeloproliferative neoplasms is that a lot of the decision-making that we need to make doesn’t have to happen immediately, and we also have the luxury of really getting to know our patients over time. And so having that longitudinal relationship, I think really helps in shared decision-making, because I know who that patient is, I know what’s important to them, we get to know their families, and they’ve also gotten to know our care team throughout our relationship. But in general, when we do need to make a decision about treatment, using that foundation, I think is really what’s most important for shared decision-making.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Oftentimes, patients are the drivers of a lot of these decisions and they’ll bring up the questions, but, of course, every patient is a little bit different, and sometimes I need to be more on the side of bringing up the questions, etcetera. So I think knowing where your patient is emotionally, what’s important to them, what are their worries, is really important, so you can have a conversation where you’re not just speaking about the things that you as a provider think is important, but really also listening to where the patient is coming from, and so that you can make sure that you’re appeasing their anxieties and whatever decision you make is consistent with both what you think is medically important, but also with what’s really important for the patients. I think listening is really at the core there.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Love that you highlighted listening. I think that’s something that we often don’t do enough of in healthcare, so thank you for that, Dr. Hobbs. What about you, Ms. Johnson? What are your thoughts about shared decision making in MPN care? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yeah, I agree with everything Dr. Hobbs said. I really believe it’s just…it starts with conversations and taking the time, making sure that you have the patient, you have the caregiver, if they can’t be there in person, sometimes you’re calling them on the phone. If it’s through Zoom visit they’re joining, and the health care provider, and I think that we spend a ton of time educating them to make sure that they really understand this disease, the symptoms that go along with it, the treatments that go along with that, and once we have a good confidence that they understand everything, lead them into discussing what their goals of care are, and then we take all that information together, and we create a treatment plan specific to that patient, really aiming to improve their quality of life and overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, so both of you spoke about the importance of listening and of really understanding the goals of the patients and their care partners, their family members, understanding their values, but we know that in reality, when you’re in that examination room and when you have all the distractions and all the competing priorities and the limited time, which is the thing I hear about most, I think, when I’m talking to colleagues, sometimes it can be difficult to put this into practice. So what can you share with fellow providers, maybe some tips or tricks or strategies that in face of all of those known barriers, how can they help patients take a more active role in managing their MPN? And we’ll start with you this time, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

All right, so one thing I would say is that here’s why I really think there’s a benefit to seeing an MPN expert that is at a national cancer center, academic center. I do think there is some more time allotted to those visits, especially the consults and first appointments for the patient, and we kind of start this with my doctor and other providers of assessing how much does the patient even know to begin with? So that can direct us where to start. And then how deep do they want to go. You know sometimes we have patients that they want to get down to the nitty-gritty and know all the scientific details, and other ones are like, Just lay it out for me easy. So really like assessing that from the beginning and then…so then start educating. Just like I said before, what does the disease look like, the symptoms, the treatment, alleviating symptoms, explaining that this is only cured by transplant. I think that’s really important to discuss right up front, and if they start treatment, usually treatment is indefinite. Of course, it’s changed depending on things, but educating them, so spending that time and then providing resources.

So we do this a lot by…I write a lot of things down for my patients when I see them, I think visuals are really helpful, provide literature, I tell them what websites to visit. A lot of times, they just will Google their doctor, which is great because they can find them and listen to their own lectures, and they really learn a lot. So just guiding them to those resources. I do think it’s important, too, to give them something like the total symptom score form. Just having that visual of, these are what is common, and then they can think about that between visits, but I think all of those things really help to educate them and get them involved.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, thank you for that, Ms. Johnson. What about you, Dr. Hobbs? Do you have any additional strategies that really help to empower patients to manage their care? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I think everything that Ms. Johnson said was spot on, and I agree with everything that she said. A few additional things that I would add to that is reminding a patient that they don’t need to remember every single thing we talk about at every single encounter, this is an ongoing conversation and decision-making will happen over time, especially when we’re trying to make more difficult decisions about when or if they have to go to transplant, for example. Sometimes I have a conversation with my patients for years before they actually get a transplant. Other things that I think are helpful strategies is reminding patients that they can be in touch.

Nowadays, we have so many different ways of keeping in touch with our patients, they know how to call our practice nurses in our clinic, how to get in touch with the nurse practitioner that I work with the most, how to get in touch with me through the patient portal. And so, knowing that when that visit finishes, which sometimes does feel short, even if…like Ms. Johnson said, we do have the luxury of time more in academic centers, they’re still…the patients will invariably get out of the room, get in their car and be like, “Oh, I forgot to ask that one question.” And so reminding them that they can get in touch, and then helping them to prepare for their next visits to make the most out of those visits, especially for some of those patients that maybe don’t always necessarily come back to see me.

There are some patients that live far away, and then they maybe see me infrequently, talking to them about the symptom assessment form, like Ms. Johnson said, pointing them to the right direction in terms of literature and reminding them that, especially for those patients that are very symptomatic, for example, keeping track of their symptoms over time, writing down notes about how they felt, what they think made something better, made something worse, how they’re responding to these medications, questions that they may have, and writing all of that down helps them be more empowered patients. They can advocate for themselves in a more organized way when they do go see either me or another clinician. So they come in fully prepared with the information and the questions that they want to get out of that visit.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Perfect, thank you both. That’s really important. And so this leads nicely into our next topic, both of you have mentioned the importance of tracking symptoms, and so we want to shift and talk about strategies for managing disease burden, and I’d love to hear from each of you about what are your recommendations as you speak to MPN patients and their care partners about symptoms? How should other providers bring up those conversations and what are the best ways to really elucidate the symptoms that patients with MPN are having? So I’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So this may sound obvious, but the first way of figuring out what symptoms a patient has is by asking, and it’s so interesting, right? There have been studies comparing what symptoms are most important to patients and what symptoms clinicians think the patients have. And guess what, the clinicians don’t actually know which symptoms the patient has, or which symptoms are most important to the patient, and…so anyway, it sounds obvious, but it sometimes isn’t, and I think clinicians are busy and sometimes feel like having a tool to ask those questions is maybe too burdensome. I personally find that the MPN symptom assessment form is a quick form, it’s easy to complete, it can be given to a patient, there’s a piece of paper while they’re waiting for you.

And that also directs the conversation because it really just gives numbers, makes it objective, and then can really start that conversation. And so remembering that we do have this tool, it actually can help cut down time to the visit and make it more focused, and it’s helpful to…empowers the patient and make sure that you really are asking about all of those symptoms, and just making sure that you don’t just assume that a patient has or doesn’t have a symptom, but really saying, “Are there any other symptoms that you’ve noticed?” I’m trying to be really thorough because, honestly, MPN symptoms can manifest in so many different ways for our patients in addition to those 10 symptoms that are asked in the MPN symptom assessment form, and so trying to be thorough about those symptoms, I think, really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

And thank you for that and for highlighting sometimes this disconnect between the patients and the clinicians, and also the fact that what’s important to us may not be as important to the patient, and what’s important to the patient may get overlooked by us, and so again, it’s always going back to centering the patient and their experiences. Do you have anything to add, Ms. Johnson, with regard to talking to patients about their symptoms? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes, I had to just laugh in on my head with what Dr. Hobbs said, because it’s so true. With MPNs, numbers are a big deal in this world, and we can see a patient and just look at their numbers and think, “They look good,” and then you see them and they’re like, “I feel horrible.” And it just doesn’t relate. And so I agree with what she said, really going over what are the common symptoms and then thinking about, if they’re on treatment, is this like a medication side effect or is this a disease-related symptom, and then thinking just about comorbidity. So often our patients can have CHF or pulmonary hypertension that’s contributing to their symptoms, and so discussing that and trying to get those things managed.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, Dr. Hobbs, did you have something you wanted to add? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Yeah. You know what I was thinking, we also have obviously very different personalities for our patients, of course, in addition for our clinicians, and there are sometimes patients that are very vocal, will come in and share every single symptom, and then we have some stoic patients that never complain, but for those patients, it’s very helpful to turn around and look at the spouse. And so you’ll ask the patient, “Are you tired?” “No, I’m fine.” “Are you whatever?” “No, everything’s okay,” and then the spouse is like, “But remember, you really haven’t been having your dinner, and remember how you were complaining about how your stomach was hurting every time you ate. And you say you’re not itchy, but every night when we’re watching TV, I turn around and I see that you’re scratching.” And so I think that’s also a really important tool to make sure that you make use of the family members, because they really know what’s going on if the patient is not willing to share as much or doesn’t like to complain. [chuckle]

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Oh, Dr. Hobbs, you are reminding me of my former caregiving experience. There were so many occasions where my dad, who did not have MPN by the way, but my dad would…he was that stoic person who would downplay everything, even though the entire car ride to the doctor’s office, he had been complaining, [chuckle] but in front of the doctor he was always fine.

Gabriela  Hobbs, MD:

Everything is fine.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Yeah, I was the care partner that was like, “But what about what you said 5 minutes ago?” So I appreciate you sharing that. We cannot overemphasize the importance of engaging with those incredible care partners. So you all both mentioned there are a lot of symptoms and those symptoms can really have an impact on patients and on their families, their care partners, what specific strategies can other providers use to explain how to minimize the disease impact of MPN? And I’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

Okay, so the number one symptom I hear is fatigue, and it has nothing really to do with hemoglobin, whether it’s normal or not. It’s so many factors that go into the disease, that cause it, and then also considering comorbidity, so I really try to encourage patients to be as active as possible. And we’ve seen with some of our solid tumors and studies that have been done when fatigue’s an issue, activity or physical exercise really seems to be the best way to combat that.

And I really try to encourage them. “Once you stop doing something and you sit down, it’s going to be hard to get back up and do it again. So pace yourself and do what you can.” But that is a big encouragement that I give. And then a second one I would say is diet. There’s been some new interest in looking at the Mediterranean diet, and that it has a possible benefit in reducing symptom burden in patients, so I think that’s something we can continue to look into, but it certainly can’t hurt a patient, especially when you look at cardiovascular risk factor, so just encouraging healthy diet. But I’m also a great advocate for, if they can eat, I want them to enjoy life and eat, too. So I go back and forth a little bit on that depending on the patient. And then just lastly, I really do encourage them to live, you know, live each day, continue living, and I have some patients that play pickleball several times a week and can be really active and enjoy that, and some, it’s just maybe having their neighbors over to play cards once a week, and that’s okay. Or their family, or their church community. Just an encouragement that if they’re living and trying to have healthy habits, I really think it can improve symptom burden.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Dr. Hobbs, are there any non-pharmacologic strategies that you endorse? And I’m asking you specifically because I think a lot of times, patients and care partners think that physicians aren’t well-versed in non-pharmacologic therapies or that we don’t endorse non-pharmacologic therapy. So I’m curious to know if there are any that you tend to recommend to your patients with MPNs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:  

I love this question, and I’m glad to have an opportunity to talk about it, and I loved everything that Ms. Johnson said. For many years, I’ve felt in my practice like I’m a primary care doctor, and I’m talking to patients about diet and exercise, [chuckle] especially for the patients that have essential thrombocythemia and polycythemia vera or low-risk myelofibrosis, those diseases really are diseases that I think about as another cardiovascular risk factor. And when we’re talking to patients that have cardiovascular risk factors, like obesity, like hypertension, like hyperlipidemia, diabetes, etcetera, what do we talk to them about? We talk about lifestyle modification. And I think that that fits in beautifully in the care of a patient with an MPN because there’s nothing like getting a diagnosis to take away control from your life. And so giving patients control back by saying, “Actually, you do have control over this disease by changing your lifestyle, by living an active healthy lifestyle and having a well-balanced diet,” I think can actually be very helpful.

One of the things that we don’t talk a lot about in MPNs, ’cause we’re focused on cell signaling and new fancy medications, is just the basics, lifestyle modification. And so I’m a huge fan of that holistic approach. I loved what Ms. Johnson said about, “Don’t let yourself be defined by this disease.” Let’s really find a way of improving your quality of life and maximizing how you live your days. And so I think talking to them about lifestyle modification is something that is really near and dear to my heart. We have a clinical trial now helping patients to really change their lifestyle, get more active and eat more healthily, and I think that those things are actually really, really important. Many of my patients, the first thing they do when they get diagnosed is they want to go and find that magical supplement that’s going to change their natural history of their disease. And although I can’t really say if any of those supplements are going to be helpful or not, I can for sure say that there is no harm, and there’s probably benefit to staying active and also to having a more plant-based, less processed food diet. And I think that that really goes a long way in terms of helping patients to improve their symptoms, feel less tired and feel less anxious, also feel like they have more control over what’s going on with them.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Wonderful. That’s great to hear. So I wanted to shift again and start to talk about specifically disease progression. And we know that that is, unfortunately, something that is an important element of MPNs. And so as we talk to fellow MPN specialists, what are you all’s recommendations for how they can best explain disease progression to patients? Are there any specific languaging or specific tactics that you all use, and even things that maybe you shouldn’t say as you are sharing information about disease progression? Either one of you, feel free to go first.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So disease progression, I think is a really challenging topic, because on the one hand, I think it’s really important to educate patients. It’s really important for patients to know that that is a possibility, that it is something that can happen. It’s really challenging to have a patient that has lived with this disease for a long time, hardly even knows the name of that disease. Maybe they were seen elsewhere, etcetera, and then all of a sudden, something’s going wrong and they just weren’t prepared for that. But I feel like that really does need to be balanced by the fact that, thankfully, progression happens infrequently. And so you also…going back to what we were saying before, you want to help a patient to be able to live well with these diseases and not be defined by those diseases. And so one of the things that I try to do with patients is, especially during that initial visit, I spend some time explaining to them what the disease is, that it can progress to myelofibrosis, that it can progress to leukemia. But then I also try to reassure them as much as possible that this is an infrequent event, that the reason why we follow patients in-clinic is so that we can start to notice if there’s disease progression, that it usually happens gradually.

And then I try to say, “You have this information. We can’t necessarily change that at this moment, there are maybe some tools that we can use in the future, but try to put that information in a box in your brain, put the key, put it away, try not to think about that every day when you’re outside of here. Definitely okay to open that back up when you’re with me in the room. If you want to get those anxieties out, that’s fine, but let’s really try to make sure that that’s in the back and not at the forefront of our thoughts.” And kind of going back to one of the things we were discussing before about what the patient thinks is most important, what the clinician thinks is most important. If you ask patients what are they most concerned about with their MPN, oftentimes that response is, “Is my disease going to progress?” And so I think acknowledging that and talking about that is important, but then also reminding patients that over time, they need to, hopefully with your help, or maybe they need additional assistance with therapists or social workers, etcetera, let’s find a way to put that away so that it’s not really at the forefront of our thoughts every single day, because that also ends up being not productive.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I love that approach, of providing the education, but also that balance that you talked about, Dr. Hobbs. I love the idea of putting it away, putting it in a box [chuckle] and locking it, and then opening it back up when you’re in the safety with your healthcare provider. That’s beautiful.

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Johnson? 

Natasha Johnson:

I completely agree. Your example there of putting it in the box, I’m going to use that in clinic. [laughter] I think it’s a great visual for patients. Because like you said, they’re very scared, and it can control them and take over, and we don’t want the disease to take over their life. Still live. Enjoy. 

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. So as we start to wrap up, we definitely want to address the role of advanced practice clinicians. We’re honored to have Ms. Johnson here with us, a nurse practitioner. And you mentioned earlier, Dr. Hobbs, that you work very closely with the nurse practitioner, so I’d love for you to share, Dr. Hobbs, the importance, in your professional opinion, of the role of advanced practice clinicians in MPN care. And how can fellow providers best leverage and utilize advanced practice clinicians? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that Ms. Johnson is here with us. And I am thinking about Judy, the nurse practitioner that I work with the most. And honestly, without her and without the NPs that work in our clinic, I’m pretty sure that our clinic would fall apart, [chuckle] so I don’t have enough important…I really don’t have enough good things to say about the NPs or the advanced practice providers. They really play a huge role in the care of our patients and in so many different ways. I think sometimes a patient will feel more comfortable sharing some things either with the practice nurses or with the nurse practitioners. Sometimes having just a different perspective from another clinician is so helpful for the patient. Sometimes even if the two of us are communicating similar information, just to hear it slightly differently in another perspective can be really so helpful. Another thing that I think is also really essential about having that team approach is that when I’m away, if I’m on the inpatient service or Judy is away, [chuckle] the patients always know who they’re going to see when they come to the clinic. There’s that great continuity of care. And so I think the fact that there are two of us taking care of a patient as opposed to just me ends up really being very, very helpful for the patients, because they know that when they come to see us, they’re going to see somebody that really knows them longitudinally. And so two is better than one, honestly.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Two, absolutely better than one. And Ms. Johnson, how would you describe your role? Or maybe is there one example of how you partner with physicians and other members of the team, or maybe something that stands out for you that you’d like to share with the audience? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. So I work with two main physicians, and one of them is a MPN expert. And so he sees them in their consult initial visit. And then oftentimes, they’re following up with me for those more frequent visits. Our physicians are performing research, they’re teaching, so they’re not in clinic as many days a week as, like I am. And so I do see him more often and really get to know them. But I communicate with my physician almost on a daily basis. And because our relationship has grown, I think that he’s come to trust me to know that I can pick up on…when I’m concerned about disease progression, I know that I can go to him and talk to him, and he’s there. And then he also helps me to make…or he also trusts me to make more minor treatment decisions. But when things are a big deal, I call on him, and he’s there. Oftentimes, if the patient come in and we did not expect this and it’s obvious they’ve progressed, he’ll come into the room with me, and I really believe that makes the patient so much more comfortable. They enjoy seeing me. And we have a good relationship, but it’s different when it’s coming from your physician. And so yeah, we work really close, we communicate regularly. I try to ensure the patients of that. But I do develop very close relationships with patients, because I’m seeing them more routinely and more often.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

That makes perfect sense. It takes a team, right? I mean, we talk about healthcare teams, and that’s really what you all are describing, is teamwork in action. Lastly, I want to wrap up by talking about cultural humility. You all have spoken so eloquently about the importance of developing true, genuine relationships with patients and their care partners and valuing what’s important to them and bringing them into the shared decision-making. And we also know that our patients come with their own unique racial and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and that sometimes, unfortunately in healthcare, we don’t take those things into consideration. So when we talk about cultural humility, we’re really talking about acknowledging a patient’s full, authentic self, their full, lived experiences, and also acknowledging our own biases that we bring to the table, listening to our patients and having that interest and that curiosity. So I’d love for you to either share an example of when you or a fellow provider were able to show cultural humility in action, or maybe a specific tip for the providers that are watching this program about how to truly incorporate cultural humility into your practice. We’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that question. And I think this is something that is a lifelong process for all of us, and I think it starts with awareness, really just recognizing that you bring your own background and bias into every encounter. And that’s okay. So I think sometimes we want to feel like we’re color blind and culture blind and that we see everything the same. But we have our own biases. And one example for me where that’s always true is, I’m a physician, but I’m also an investigator, and so, obviously, I have a bias towards research. For me, it’s obvious, yeah, of course, I’m wanting to participate in a clinical trial.

And I think you have to be aware of the fact that clinical trials come with all sorts of different opinions from patients, patients don’t like to be guinea pigs, there is mistrust, there’s all sorts of history in [chuckle] this country, especially about clinical trials. And I think coming into those encounters, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, taking into account that you really do know your patient. But sometimes, you don’t know the patient as well. You’re getting to know them, and you need to make a decision. Just listening, being humble, being aware, trying to understand where the patient is coming from, I think sometimes, especially when you’re trying to make a decision quickly and you find that there’s some friction, I think taking some time to say, “Alright, where is that coming from?” And perhaps I’m coming across too strong with this recommendation to do this clinical trial and there’s maybe something that I need to explore, and so just keeping an open mind and trying to just ask questions, “Where are you coming from? What’s important to you? Why are you hesitating? Or is there something that I can explain in a different way?” And really trying to get the whole picture of who that patient is and where they’re coming from. I think that’s probably a really important one.

Another example and I’ll let Ms. Johnson talk. 

It comes often in my practice, I speak Spanish and I realize the moment that I switch languages, for example, with a patient, the whole conversation can change. And so in some instances, I have the ability to truly get into that cultural mindset very well because it’s a culture that I’m very familiar, and so you can break those barriers more easily. But then there’s some other situations, or maybe a culture that I’m not as familiar with and I don’t speak the language, or I don’t speak to culture, and you need to keep that in mind and realize, “Okay, here, I don’t know exactly all the same custom,” so I need to take a step back, be humble and just ask a lot of questions, and just acknowledge that, and that’s okay.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. What about you, Ms. Johnson? Any examples or anything you want to reflect on regarding cultural humility.

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. When I think about this, I know that I have to go in prepared and be aware, so like educating myself on how does MPN affect this specific population, and with this culture, what are their values that they hold? And so when I’m going in to see the patient, just like Dr. Hobbs said, listening, being respectful, watching my body language, discussing all treatment options. And just two quick examples I can think about is, one, I’ve had a patient due to religious beliefs can’t take transfusions. And so a lot of times anemia is a big deal in our situation, and so really being creative with the treatments to not really worsen that and be okay with it. And you’d really be surprised how a patient can go around with a hemoglobin of like 5 and live normally when their body gets used to it. But I remember just that patient very well and having to respect that and understand it. And then the second is, I’ve had patients progress and they need to go to transplant or we need to do a bone marrow biopsy to really see where the disease is at right now. And in my mind, I think, “You’re fit. You feel good, like pushing these things,” and I have to step back and look at the patient and listen to the patient. And they’re telling me, “Right now for this, this or this reason, I don’t want to do this. And my priorities are over here.” And just really respecting the patient and still taking 100 percent great care of them through all that.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I really appreciate you all’s insight, your expertise. It’s time to wrap up. And you all have said a lot. You’ve talked about the importance of addressing symptoms, you’ve talked about getting to know patients and their care partners, you talked about the idea of centering our patients and their care partners and making sure that we understand their values, we’ve talked about disease progression, we’ve talked about holistic care and cultural humility. Do you have any closing thoughts, any one last thing that you want to leave with the audience as we wrap up this amazing program? We’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson. Any closing thoughts? 

Natasha Johnson:

I think of three things, assessing, educating and providing. So assessing your patient by listening, really getting to know them, seeing what they understand, educate them. Not to put fear in them, but to educate them so that they are well-empowered on their disease and how we’re going to move forward. And then providing them with resources regarding treatment with ways to alleviate symptoms so they can further their knowledge as well. So that way overall, we are aiming our goal to improve their quality of life and their overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome. Thank you for that. And what about you, Dr. Hobbs? Any closing thoughts? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Hard to say anything better than what Ms. Johnson just said, [laughter] But the only thing I’ll add, which I think is really in the same message, is to remember that there’s a ton of hope, and I think our patients are nervous and they’re worried about this disease, but this field is changing rapidly there’s so many clinical trials in this space and new medications that are likely to be approved. That I think it’s important to remind patients that even though right at this moment, you know, the only curative treatment is a bone marrow transplant for those patients with myelofibrosis, I really do feel very optimistic that there’s going to be a lot of different treatments in the next couple of years that are going to be available for them. And so education is critical, and leaving those patients with hope at the end of each encounter is something that’s also really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, I love that we’re ending the program with a message of hope. Thank you so much, Dr. Hobbs, Ms. Johnson, thank you for your time and thank you to all of you for tuning into this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. Have an amazing day.

PODCAST: MPN Specialized Care and Technology: Digital Health and Symptom Management

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Nearly 80% of patients living with a myeloproliferative neoplasm (MPN) are affected by fatigue. Can digital health alleviate symptom burden in MPN care? What exactly is mobile app intervention, and how can it help me? Dr. Krisstina Gowin and Dr. AnaMaria Lopez discuss technological interventions in MPN symptom management, telemedicine limitations and the importance of connecting with an MPN specialist. 

See More from MPN TelemEDucation

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield: 

Welcome to this Patient Empowerment Network Program, I’m your host Lisa Hatfield. In this unique program, we explore cancer care and technology, specifically the importance of specialized care in myeloproliferative neoplasms, MPNs for short, and the role of digital health in symptom management. Today, I’m joined by two incredible experts, Dr. Krisstina Gowin is a hematologist, oncologist treating MPNs. I’m gonna shorten that, simplify it, treating MPNs. Dr. Gowin is Assistant Professor of Medicine at the University of Arizona. And Dr. Gowin it’s such a pleasure to connect with you.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin: 

Oh, it’s such an honor to be on today and connect with you all. Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa Hatfield: 

Also joining us is respected oncologist, Dr AnaMaria Lopez, Professor of Medical Oncology at Sidney Kimmel Cancer Centre, Thomas Jefferson University. Dr Lopez is a telemedicine pioneer as the founding medical director of the Arizona Telemedicine Program. Welcome, Dr Lopez, thank you for being here.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez: 

Thank you so much. So looking forward to the discussion.

Lisa Hatfield: Thank you. So, Dr Lopez, I’d like to start with you to talk about cancer care and technology and how far we’ve come with technology and cancer care. We’ve made a fair number of strides in cancer care as they relate to digital health. Can you speak to that a bit?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. I always say that the COVID pandemic allowed us to advance telehealth in a couple of months what probably would have taken 70 years. So we went from maybe 10% of the visits being done through tele to 90% plus. So a huge, huge change, and a lot of lessons learned, both in the, how do we do it clinically as well as how do we integrate this? How do we integrate this into clinical trials and to move beyond? We really thought telemedicine and really thinking telehealth because there are so many technologies, so there could be monitors, there could be… A lot of us were doing work in patient-recorded outcomes, how do you integrate that? How do you make it easy for patients to use this? And maybe it’s not simply the patient, but it’s also the patient and the caregiver who can help with this reporting. What are really the implementation efforts that need to be done? I could go on and on because there are so many lessons learned and it really shook things up. So people are thinking of this as a new technological revolution. So technology plays a big role in care and certainly a very big role in cancer care.

Lisa Hatfield:

And just out of curiosity, Dr Lopez, do you have a lot of your patients who still continue to see you via digital health or telehealth, who prefer that?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yes. Yeah. For example, in some of the psychiatry literature, which I think is a little bit unexpected ’cause you think psychiatry is such an intimate interaction. Well a lot of patients actually feel safer when it’s digital, when it’s through tele. So yeah, I do. And we were talking earlier about doing integrative medicine, and almost all of my integrative medicine patients, we do at a distance. I really think of it as it’s a way to bring back the house call.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes. Well, thank you for that overview, Dr Lopez. So the pandemic has resulted in significant changes to many aspects of daily living for many of us, but for patients living with cancer like myself, there are different realities that we’ve had to deal with. Do we go in for our monthly blood draws, or do we wait a couple of months? So question for Dr Gowin, can you give us an overview of the impact that Covid-19 has had on MPNs or MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Absolutely. Well, there was a really wonderful study that was done, really led out of Mayo, by Jeanne Palmer and Ruben Mesa, and it was an international study, and it looked at 1500 MPN patients. And they asked questions like, how many of you are actually having telemedicine? And this was in 2020, kind of at the beginning. And over half of them had already been engaging in telemedicine. And about a quarter of them felt that their care actually was delayed a little bit and that there were actually consequences to that delay, so that really speaks to an international kind of change in the paradigm of how we’re delivering care for MPN patients. The other thing is the lockdowns, the lockdowns that were occurring for us here in the US and really internationally. And what they did is, they asked patients their MPN symptom burden, and those that were on lockdown, not surprisingly I think to all of us, had a significantly higher symptom burden.

So I think that really speaks to that A, yes, there was a very large impact of COVID on the development of telemedicine and the need for telemedicine. But it also underscores the need for symptom management that we now have a group of patients that are having a higher symptom burden, probably likely secondary to more sedentary behavior, more anxiety, more depression, but a higher symptom burden because of COVID. And so we really need not only more therapeutics and perhaps non-pharmacologic interventions to support their symptom burden, but it needs to be delivered on a digital platform.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that, Dr. Gowin. So you brought up a really good point, and this is a great segue to talk about integrative health. So I have multiple myeloma, and of course that comes with side effects from the different therapies and symptoms of their own. We have a great integrative health center at our cancer center here locally where I live, and I’ve used it for acupuncture for some of my symptom management. I’ve also watched you on different platforms, through webinars and patient support groups where you describe different integrative health techniques and that type of thing. So I’m wondering… Two questions. The first part is, what symptoms do MPN patients face the most? And then how can they use integrative health to do that, particularly as it relates to telemedicine? Are there telemedicine options for integrative health? I suppose things like acupuncture, maybe not, but other types of integrative health, and can they get a consult for integrative health? Can they even go as far as getting a consult? So if you can answer those questions, the symptoms they face, how to use integrative health, and if they can get a consult for integrative health, that would be great. We’d appreciate that.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yeah. Well, Lisa, I wanna take a moment just to validate your journey that you’re going through and to congratulate you for your self-advocacy to go look for those integrative therapies to support yourself. And for MPN patients, I will say that it’s a really unique group, and so all cancer patients experience symptoms, but in myeloproliferative neoplasms, it’s really kind of this heterogeneous what we call a symptom burden. And so most patients will experience fatigue about 80% of MPN patients. But then beyond that, there’s really a whole slew of different sequelae that can be associated with the disease, which you may or may not think about when you’re thinking about MPNs, such as psychosocial issues, sleep issues, sexual issues.

And then we have kind of the classical issues that happen with MPNs, such as dizziness, but we talked about the fatigue, bone pain, itching, abdominal discomfort from an enlarged spleen and early satiety, or feeling full quickly. It’s really a huge symptom complex, if you will. And we now have validated measurement tools to better understand those. It’s the MPN symptom assessment form, which has really, I think, revolutionized how we look at MPN. It’s no longer just treating the blood counts. We’re treating the patient as a whole, and even within our NCCN guidelines, kind of how we as oncologists go through the algorithms of how to change therapy and how we look at patients. We now have symptoms in there. So even if blood counts are controlled, we may change therapies or even do a bone marrow based on symptoms alone. So symptoms are a huge thing in MPN. So getting to your second question for integrative health.

So I think that MPN… The patients in the community are really early adopters for digital engagement, which is fantastic. Everyone’s very engaged and I’ve had the opportunity to work on meditation apps, yoga apps, a wellness based app here from the University of Arizona, and patients just really accrue fast. Everyone’s so excited. And most of these, though, were very small kind of pilot trials, looking at feasibility, can’t we really do these things? But most of them as well are showing some impacts on depression, anxiety, sleep, and total symptom burden. So I do think that these modalities through digital platforms certainly can make a difference on the symptoms. And we’ve seen that with meditation. We’ve seen it with yoga and we’ve seen it with a seven domain wellness app. And is it the digital engagement? I don’t think so.

I think it’s likely the integrative therapies that they’re receiving through that platform, right? We know meditation works, we know yoga works, perhaps not so well in MPNs. We need to build that evidence base, but other solid cancers, we know those interventions really work. But it’s wonderful to get that kind of early data, say it not only works, but it also works when you’re doing it at home, when you’re doing it on a digital platform. And so I would encourage all patients listening to this to, yes, look at what’s around you, what are the resources, what are the clinical trials? Looking at these different digital modalities for integrative medicine, but also to go get an integrative consultation.

And as Dr. Lopez already had mentioned, she does all of her integrative medicine via telemedicine now, which is fantastic. And so you, it’s really, it’s that you know, your fingertips. You now have access to wonderful oncologists like Dr. Lopez to guide you in this journey. And the journey is not only allopathic western medicine, but it’s treating you as a person, you as a whole symptom complex. And that’s really what integrative medicine aims to support you through.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. Dr. Gowin. So you talked about an app that patients can use. Is this app accessible to any patient or is it just within a trial or a study that you’ve done?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

No, it is widely accessible. It is free, even better. [laughter], it’s called my Wellness Coach. And that’s…

Lisa Hatfield:

I’m writing that down. Okay. [laughter]

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s really wonderful. Many domains of wellness. It’s based on motivational interviewing and smart goals. It gives you little reminders of, hey, and you set your own goals, which is wonderful.

Lisa Hatfield:

And what types of interventions then does that contain? Does it have things like you said, meditation and does it have a yoga program for patients? Or what types of interventions?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Not quite yet. I think that that’s what we aspire to is really this multidimensional intervention. It’s not really an intervention. It’s looking at your life. It’s saying, “what are you eating? What are your nutrition goals? How are you moving? What are your exercise goals?”

How is your resiliency? How is your spiritual health? How are your relationships? And so it’s asking all of these domains of what our wellness is and helps to identify where perhaps you would like to devote more time and energy to, and also gives some resources and education around each of those domains and why they’re so important. But you set your own goals and then…

Lisa Hatfield:

That’s great.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

You’re accountable for your goals.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Well, thank you so much for that information. And you mentioned that Dr. Lopez also does her integrative health via telemedicine. So I’m gonna ask Dr. Lopez, can you speak to that a little bit more? How do you do that with patients? Do they just contact you and set up an appointment for an integrative health consult or appointment? And do you conduct some of that yourself or do you send them to particular resources in the community?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. So, yes, patients can make an integrative oncology appointment directly. I really like to do the consults through tele simply because I can… As I was mentioning, it’s like a virtual house call to really get a sense of the patient. Often a partner, significant other, caregiver might be present as well and as we know there’s the survivor and there’s the co-survivor. So including both can be very helpful to some people and I think the initial intake… Again as Dr. Gowin was saying it depends so much on what the person wants to do. So the first opportunity for coming together is simply, where are you? What are your goals? What’s important to you? And of the panoply of options, which might be the easiest or the one that you are most interested in.

And so depending on what it is we might work together, we might also bring in others if the person is really interested in making lifestyle changes, let’s say related to nutrition. The person might work closely with a nutritionist for some period of time and then come back and we’d come together and reassess. You mentioned the acupuncture and you can’t do acupuncture at a distance, but you can certainly teach people about the points and consider acupressure for certain points. So there’s so many ways to engage and interact, but yes, I think like a lot of medicine, it’s a team-based approach.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Dr. Lopez. I do have to say with acupuncture, one of the side effects of a lot of the cancer medications is neuropathy. And a lot of patients like myself try every option, every pharmacological option, whether it’s gabapentin or something else, and they don’t work an acupuncture for me anyway, personally. I had a significant reduction in the painful neuropathy… Not so much in the tingling, but a significant reduction that, so I am very strong advocate for integrative health. So thank you for explaining that a bit more and as long as we have you on Dr. Lopez, can you also speak more broadly to innovative telehealth tools that are making an impact on symptom management and overall cancer care?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. So one of the things that we know, is that for example, people have appointments every three weeks, or they have appointments once a month with the oncologist, and a lot can happen in that time. So setting up systems that are assisted by technology, so that patients can report their symptoms in real time can be very helpful. And some of this may require… It may not be a common way where the person may be familiar going to a computer or going to their phone to kind of say, “This is how I’m feeling.” So that may require some engagement education, but often regardless of age, regardless of background, people find that really easy and find that so helpful to be able to say, “Oh, was it two weeks ago that I had that?” As opposed to just saying, “Hey, I just had this,” and then it can happen anytime day or night that the patient can report. And that way there’s… It’s just so helpful to have an intervention in real time.

The other part that’s good is that often some of these systems can kind of track. So we can look at it together and say, “You know what? Your fatigue tends to be a couple of weeks after therapy, so how can we either prepare for that?” Or just to have the reassurance that, “Yes you have that depth, but it gets better and you get through it.” So being able to look retrospectively and identify that can be helpful and I think also just the ease for people to be able to connect with multiple specialists, sometimes to have multidisciplinary visits where not only does the patient meet with everyone, but the patient can see that we are all meeting and interacting together. So all of those are incredible tools, one of my favorites though, one of my favorites is patients who are in the hospital and patients who are in the hospital a long time, on some occasions. So and even if a person’s not there a long time, it can feel like a long time, so to use the technology, not just to connect the patient, the healthcare team, but to use the technology to connect the patient with his or her family. And I think especially… I mean, a lot of people have smartphones, but it’s using your minutes, sometimes the internet may not be so strong. So to use the technology that would be used for the clinical piece to have that available in the inpatient setting so that patients can feel connected.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah, that’s a really great thought that you brought up, too. I know when the pandemic was in full swing, but patients were starting to go back into the office to see their provider. For me, I was not allowed to take my husband in with me, so I went in alone. I was far enough along in my journey. I didn’t necessarily need a care partner with me, but some patients do, maybe a newly diagnosed patient. So that is a really great point. Say, a patient has to come in by himself or herself, is that a technology they can use? Are you willing to let them use their phone to maybe FaceTime during that call or we had to use the actual physical landline because my phone did not connect, the signal wasn’t strong enough. But do you allow that during your appointments to have patients contact somebody?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Absolutely.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. That’s great. Yeah.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

And also there’s pandemic, but there’s also… People live everywhere. So you could say their sun could be in California and I’m in Philadelphia and this way it’s okay, we’ll just beam them in.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes. Well, thank you for that information. And some patients might be a little more reluctant to use telehealth or telemedicine. How can patients and their care partners feel more confident in voicing their concerns or communicating with their healthcare teams regarding any telemedicine options that are out there?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

So you mentioned that I had been the founding medical director of the Arizona Telemedicine Program, and it was such a wonderful experience because skepticism and I really respected that. It was brand new and we had our system in the library. And the library, it was down in the basement, so it was very metaphorical. I would meet the new clinician at the entrance of the library. We would walk down the stairs together and often, the conversation was, “Okay, I’m doing this for you. I’m doing it one time. We’ll see how it goes.” And I was always so reassuring that if for some reason,’cause ultimately the clinician needs to feel comfortable, yes, this works, or no, it doesn’t. And if you have any doubt and you feel that you need to see the patient in person, you just need to say that, I need to see the patient in person. And inevitably as we’re walking up the stairs, “Oh, I know you called me because I was on call. Just call me anytime. Don’t call the on-call person”. This was great. I loved it.

So inevitably, people really like it and it’s good. You see the patient in their own environment, you can interact. You often get insights that you may not have gotten otherwise just because of where you are and how comfortable they feel in their own space. So I think, for me it’s the proofs in the pudding. Give people the opportunity, have the right supports and technology in place and often it’s a very positive experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you Dr. Lopez. So Dr. Gowin, a couple of questions for you. Is technology playing a role in accelerating progress in MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Oh, absolutely. And I think some of the ways that it really accelerates progress is pulling us together. So what we need to recognize is that myeloproliferative neoplasms truly is a rare disease and we just celebrated Rare Disease day. But there’s a lot of challenge in treating patients and progressing the field forward in rare diseases because you can’t do the big clinical trials. It’s hard to come together ’cause everything’s siloed and there’s just a couple patients here, a couple patients there in each practice. But with digital health and clinical trials that are offered on a digital platform, it pulls the nation together and even the world together. And we’ve seen that. I’ve done a international survey-based analysis and I had 858 MPN patients from 52 countries participate in that survey. And so that just shows how it pulls the world together. And for the web app that we just discussed, we had 93 patients say they were interested within three weeks, and within actually a week, we identified them all and then took three weeks to actually accrue them to the trial. So it really speaks to A, how MPN patients are digitally engaged and excited about these kinds of platforms. And then B, how effective it really can be to pull the groups together.

So yes, I think it’s… And that’s really how we’re gonna get progress is through these kind of interventions with a rare disease. And I hope it’s okay if we jump back to something you said, Dr. Lopez, which is, I think telemedicine is so so important to bring everyone together. And in particular, I see that on the transplant ward. And so in myelofibrosis, that’s the only curative therapy. And so many myelofibrosis patients actually go through allogeneic stem cell transplantation. And my goodness, that is a socially isolating experience. Patients are in the hospital, not uncommonly for at least 30 days and then have to be near their transplant center for three months, which often is away from home. So to pull in their support system, both through the acuity of the transplant themselves and then the couple of months after is so crucial to a successful transplantation. And I think through FaceTime and also the MPN support groups, which is very robust, the patient advocacy and the way the MPN network sticks together on a digital platform, I think is really unique and offers unique support.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. And then what role does technology play in the disease symptom management, and in particular, in clinical trials too. What role does technology play with clinical trials?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think it helps us through different, clinical trial accrual patterns, we can see who’s eligible where, so it helps us identify patients. It helps us to, understand the different kind of precision based medicine approaches so we can start to pool the data, say for, particular mutations… ASXL1 mutations. And so it helps us in the precision medicine aspect of clinical trials and now we’re looking at symptom management and how do we really integrate that. So large survivorship platforms like Carevive, if you’ve ever heard of Carevive, is now integrating our validated symptom assessment form into the Carevive platform. So now we can really collect that data and use that to mine it for potential kind of retrospective analysis. So it’s helpful for clinical trials as well as for our clinicians and clinics to really identify changes in symptom burden.

And just as Dr. Lopez was mentioning, that we can track these over time and it can flag and say, “Oh, your symptoms are changing, they’re increasing over time,” and maybe we need to be thinking about that. And so Carevive is really kind of a electronic medical record driven it’s really a healthcare driven platform, but now there’s patient ones too. And I just learned about this two weeks ago, I was at an MPN conference in Phoenix and learned about MPN Genie. And so MPN Genie apparently is tracking… Patients are putting their symptoms in and that’s shooting that information to the electronic medical record to their doctors. And so I think that’s fantastic, ’cause, we now get that information real time and we can change our clinical management, maybe bring that patient in sooner, maybe do a bone marrow earlier. We never would’ve identified that if it weren’t for those kind of digital engagements, so I think it’s a really exciting time. And I think we’re gonna see more and more of these new platforms and ways for different EMRs and smartphones to be communicating back and forth between patients and providers.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. That MPN Genie is fascinating to me that we can have that real-time communication going back and forth as a patient, I would love that. So going back to clinical trials, I’m curious if you think that, technology has progressed enough, so in the past… Say I’m an MPN patient or a myeloma patient, I see a clinical trial or hear about one, I have to be onsite for that clinical trial for monitoring maybe for six months to a year. Do you think that technology has progressed enough that clinical trials might allow a patient to be at home, maybe in a more remote area and monitored remotely? Whereas in the past, that same clinical trial required them to be at the facility? Do you think that we’ve progressed to that point in some clinical trials?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

You bet. Yeah. I think COVID out of necessity has forced us to do that. And I have in my own clinical trials, even with pharmacologic clinical trials conducted telemedicine visits that were approved by the sponsor. So the paradigm is shifting, and particularly when it is oral therapeutics, I think that’s really accessible when they’re, IV subcutaneous, I think that has different challenges. Obviously you can’t do that as remote, but when they’re oral therapeutics are non-pharmacologic intervention, such as our integrative interventions, I think it really lands well to a more remote experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. And then would that require communication between the local oncologist and maybe someone like yourself, the investigator on that clinical trial to know what is going on with that particular patient? I assume that that communication would be ongoing?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Absolutely. Always.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Yeah. All right, great. Well, thank you for that information. So, Dr. Lopez, kind of a similar question for you. What are some examples of how technology is influencing cancer care right now?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah, let me just add on the clinical trial question.

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh, Yes.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

That there’s also the opportunity. Again, there were so many things that we thought, “Oh no, we just can’t be done.” But because of the necessity, necessity is the mother of invention, we do remote consent, so that was a big deal in the past. We can also do a tele visit ahead of the appointment, and screen for the cancer clinical trials, people travel large distances for studies and instead of traveling four or five hours, and then to be told, “Oh, actually you don’t meet the criteria.” To be able to do all of that at a distance, to get the records, to get the images, to review all that needs to be reviewed. And then to say yes, and not only yes, but we can also do your consent at a distance in some situations.

And then when you come, there’s actually the more substantive, perhaps even the treatment. There’s also a large, movement around hospital at home and that these patients that are eligible for that would be able… With digital support, be able to get hospital level care in some cases at home. So some of that may involve infusion, some of that… Again, but that visual connectivity and in the past you really had to kind of conceptualize it and it was kind of space aging to talk about it. But we now, we’ve all done FaceTime, so I think we all really can understand what it entails, so tremendous shifts and, we wanna try to keep that momentum going for our patients. So, I do think that, there’s so many ways that technology has impacted cancer care, even when we talk about the electronic record and patients accessing the electronic record and patients having the opportunity to go into a portal and to see their labs, to see their reports…

To be able to track their changes. All of that is really, really powerful. You know, patients with… The most common I think is patients with diabetes who track their blood sugar sometimes to the minute and they can say, “Oh, I ate that and now I see the impact.” So the opportunity for monitoring, the opportunity for also bringing in experts. So let’s say there’s a patient with a rare disease and the expert is elsewhere, there might be the opportunity to bring people together. We do tumor boards. That’s just part of what we do in cancer care. And also as many… There are health systems now so that it’s not one hospital, it’s multiple hospitals together where we can bring all of those folks together, bring in local expertise, regional expertise, national expertise, all for the patient’s benefit.

So there are so many ways that technology even something as simple as the note. Now this is something we experimented with and it’s still in experimentation phase, but there were these Google classes where you could interact with the patient and as I’m talking, the Google glass would record kind of the conversation and would come up with some sort of a structure for the note. So for what that encounter had been like. So there are lots of ways of how do you capture natural language in real time to really help the workflow, the documentation process. So I think there’s aspects to help the patient, to help the families, to help the clinical teams and to help everybody work together.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you. And you talked about the patient portal and I’m one of those patients at fault of seeing a lab result before my doctor saw it and calling him or sending a message via MyChart saying, “Hey, this is going up. What’s wrong with this?” So I’m sure you don’t have to mention any names. I’m sure you’ve seen the challenges of, digital health too, are having that patient portable or portal accessible to patients. So anyway, just wanted to throw that out there that I’m sure that brings challenges to you. Also few little challenges here and there.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

But at the same time, that’s so good, right? It’s so good that patients are engaged. It’s so good that you’re engaged. And I think as long as, we’re communicating that yes, you may see this before me, so you may have questions and then, we just get together and answer the questions.

Lisa Hatfield:

And thank you for saying that Dr. Lopez, because a lot of us patients who do that occasionally feel a little bit guilty for sending a note right away to our doctors. “We know you’re busy. We know you’ve already, you’ll look at those labs. If you’re concerned, you’ll call us or let us know”. And sometimes we jump the gun a little bit. So thank you for reassuring us that that’s okay, that that’s okay to do that. So we appreciate that. So Dr. Gowin, do you have anything to add on, how MPN care or just cancer care in general could change with different technologies? We didn’t touch a lot on things like artificial intelligence and that type of thing, and we can speak to that or, any other type of technology that you’re familiar with.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think the artificial intelligence aspect is really going to change the paradigm again on how we’re designing, studies. And I think one of the biggest challenges that we have in myeloma and as well as myeloproliferative neoplasms, is to think about how do we optimally sequence our therapies to achieve best survival, right? And I think this is a wonderful problem to have. We have now not only one JAK inhibitor on the market, but several and more in the pipeline and several other therapeutic targets. And so now the question is which therapy and when do we employ it? So things like artificial intelligence will help us to answer that question with machine learning decision tree analysis, all of that is going to be answered through those kind of platforms. And so I think that is going to be a shift we will see in the next five years is many different machine-based learning algorithms to better understand those problems we cannot have tackled traditionally otherwise.

Sensors though is another one, right? And so a big thing in MPNs is not only addressing the blood counts and reducing risk of thrombosis, and to address symptom burden, but it’s really addressing lifestyle because it’s things like cardiovascular disease, stroke that really we’re worried about as some of the sequelae of having the disease and what we’re trying to prevent with therapeutics. And so even going back to this NCCN guidelines, it’s addressing cardiovascular risk factors as part of our core treatment goals. And so how do we really do that? And it’s really through lifestyle medicine and that’s where the sensors come in. And so now we have, these Fitbits and smartphones that connect to our Apple watches and we have Garmins and all these wonderful devices that are prompting us to move more, prompting us to be cognizant of our heart rate and stress response prompting us to meditate. And so I can envision those evolving over time and connecting to the EMR and being very seamlessly interwoven into our clinical trials. And we’re already doing that. In fact, we’re talking about doing one very soon in MPN patients. And so I think the sensors are gonna be another big way that we’re going to be integrating, into our clinical trials and symptom management tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

That’s fascinating. Thank you for that. And Dr. Lopez, do you have anything to add about other technologies and how they may affect cancer care in the future?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. When Dr. Gowin mentioned the sensors, it just reminded me, we’re building this new building, patient care building and oncology will be there. And I did a tour recently, and we’re used to going to the doctor, you stop in, they get your blood pressure, they get your weight, et cetera. Here, you’ll walk in directly to your exam room and you check in at a kiosk, so you just kinda check in [chuckle] with a little robot kiosk, and then it’ll tell you where you’re going. You’ll go to Room 3, let’s say, and Room 3 will say, “Welcome, Lisa.” [chuckle] And so you know that you’re in the right place. And you’ll walk in, there’s your gown, you’ll sit in the exam chair, and the exam chair automatically is gonna take your vital signs. So it just seems, really these built-in aspects to the technology. And one of the things, again, what I just love about this work is that it’s a very interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary. And one of the projects that we were working on, which it ties into this, when I was in Arizona with the telemedicine program is we worked with the College of Architecture and with this concept of smart buildings.

So it’s kinda like that. Why should you do these different sensors that detect, but that it could also detect. You might walk into the room and you might be really nervous as you might be really cold, and it would detect that and it would warm the room for you. Or you might be coming in and be having hot flashes and it would just cool the room for you. So the technology has so much potential to really improve the patient experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

And that’s amazing to me. I think that would be incredible to walk into a building to have that experience, as long as it doesn’t take away the compassion and care I get from my providers. I am so fortunate to have extraordinary providers, so I don’t think it will ever take over that aspect of it, I think that is a fear people have, especially with artificial intelligence and that type of thing, I think it can only go so far. Can’t provide the humanness that’s required for patient care, so yeah.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah. These are tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes, that it. Great, well, thank you very much. Dr. Gowin, can you provide or share some examples of how telemedicine is influencing personalized medicine and MPN care, and how can MPN patients best advocate for themselves to get the latest in MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think it’s going back to some of the conversations we’ve already had, is that now with telemedicine, you can really access academic centers no matter where you are. And so rural areas now can go to academic centers, very accessible without travel, and so what that lends to is more access to precision-based clinical trials, and very often now we’re doing next generation sequencing panels for patients with MPN. We’re looking at what are the genetic features of the disease and we may be accruing trials based on those genetic features. And so that kind of conversation really only happens at academic centers, and so I think it’s really allowing those that live far away, a few hours away, to really have those personalized and precision-based conversations. And then tying in again the aspect of integrative medicine. And then what is integrative medicine all about is personalizing your treatment plan, asking what are your goals, what is your lifestyle, what is your culture, and how do we really get you on a plan that makes sense for you, that is local for you and sustainable for you to really achieve your optimum wellness?

And so if I were counseling patients listening to this, I would say, start with the in-state academic centers and say, “What are the telemedicine services there? Is there an integrative medicine department there”? And then get a quarterback within that department and say, “Okay, this is the plan”, and then that quarterback can say, “Well, now let’s look local. What do you have? What are your resources there? Let me do some homework with you and hook you up with really evidence-based high quality providers to achieve your personalized needs in your local community”. And I think that’s how we’re really going to get all of our patients in a precision and personalized approach no matter where they live, and that’s again, the beauty of telemedicine and digital health.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you, Dr. Gowin. And I know we’ve spoken, both you and Dr. Lopez have spoken to all of the rewards of telehealth. Are there any risks or drawbacks that you see to telehealth or telemedicine for digital health?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

The most important thing is to remember that the technology is a tool, and if the person feels that there’s a limitation, so for example, if the patient is seen and they say their heart is racing or skipping beats or something, now, there are ways, there are electronic stethoscope, so you can really do a full exam except for palpation through telemedicine. But not everybody has that even in a clinic, but certainly in our own home, we don’t have that technology. So if a patient is expressing a concern for which the clinician really feels that needs a closer evaluation, then that’s the right next step, so we’re not… The technology is a tool to help us care for people, and if it’s not all available right there, then we need to see the patient in person. So I think that’s the risk is just sometimes people may feel limited like, “Oh, well, I’m not really sure.” It’s okay, I’m not really sure I need to see you, or you need to go here or go there for the care.

And the other, which is a really big threat, is that part of the reason we did 70 years work in a couple months is because it was reimbursed and we’re reaching the end of the pandemic, the federal… And with that, the payers may go backwards. We all know that if that happens, we will go backwards in telemedicine. [chuckle] There will just be decreased, decrease use. And it may lead to people then going back to traveling four hours, waiting, only to be told, “Oh, you know what? There’s not this. This clinical trial doesn’t work for you.” So we don’t want to lose ground. And part of not losing ground is that we really need to continue to have advocacy around reimbursement.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you, Dr. Lopez. And I feel compelled, just to follow up with one more question regarding that, because I’m very passionate about this. With some of these rules and guidelines coming to an end, I know in my particular state that I will no longer be able to access my specialist. I see a myeloma specialist. We do not have any here locally. I can access a specialist via telemedicine. I will not have that opportunity. So as all of us know, there are disparities and there are financial disparities in cancer patients. There are racial disparities in cancer patients, there are socioeconomic disparities. Telemedicine has been a tremendous… Has had a tremendous impact on the care and the outcomes and the quality of life of so many patients. So as a patient and as an advocate, do you have any recommendations? Do I go to my doctor and say, “Okay, how can I move forward and still talk to my specialist, who’s out of state? Do I go to my state legislature? Do I talk to my insurance company? How can we get this to continue?” Because this has had such a significant impact on the quality of life and on the outcomes for patients, who otherwise, would not have been able to access that care.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah, I mean, I think all of the above. Partnering with other advocates, the American Telemedicine Association has a map that kind of says where are all the shifting sands regarding the different rules and legislative changes. But I think it’s led us to a place, where we are all advocates and where physicians, nurses, patients, pharmacists, everybody in the same way that we do team-based care, that we do team-based advocacy and it’s all for our patients.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that. Dr. Gowin, any last words that you may have about accessing specialists or telemedicine options?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think we covered the basics, but I just wanna end with just how empowering the access to digital health interventions really is. And so I don’t think there is a one size fits all approach to every patient. So what I would encourage patients to do is just to really think, “How do I compliment my care? What am I missing? How do I achieve my best wellness? And how do I get those resources in my home to make them more convenient for me?” And to start doing some research and self-advocacy to really get those resources ’cause they are out there and in almost… In every domain, there is now a digital version that is accessible to you now.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. So it is time to wrap up our program. I could ask you many more questions. From a patient perspective, it has been so refreshing to take a minute to understand how far we’ve come and to have a look at the exciting innovations ahead. As always, we appreciate all the new tools being added to the toolbox, and I am eternally grateful for Dr. Gowin and Dr. Lopez and all providers who are willing to come on these webinars and answer questions from patients. It is so empowering to us, and we’re so appreciative of your time and your energy and your expertise. So thank you so much for being here today. And just a reminder to all patients, to always consult with your medical team about what is right for you. Thank you again so much to Dr. Lopez and Dr. Gowin for joining us for this Patient Empowerment Network program. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you.

PODCAST: Managing Life With an MPN | What You Need to Know

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MPN expert Dr. Raajit Rampal shares advice for making treatment decisions for patients with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Rampal also reviews tips and tools for managing symptoms and side effects and provides an update on new and emerging MPN therapies.
 
Dr. Raajit Rampal is a hematologist-oncologist specializing in the treatment of myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs) and leukemia at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. Learn more about Dr. Rampal.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today’s webinar is a continuation of our Thrive series. And we’re going to discuss how to manage life with an MPN.  Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Raajit Rampal. Dr. Rampal, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself.    

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m Raajit Rampal from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center where I focus on myeloproliferative neoplasms. 

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

My pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

As we do with each of the webinars in our Thrive series, let’s start with this question. In your experience, what do you think it means to thrive with an MPN? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s a great question, right. I think taking a step back, when we think about our patients with MPNs, one of the questions I always have for patients are what are your goals. And inevitably and invariably, people want two things. They want to live longer and they want to live better. And so, I think that thinking about thriving with an MPN to me is about how do we minimize the impact of an MPN in someone’s life. And that means a couple of things. One that means how do we deal with symptoms or things that are causing medical problems. 

But two, how do we deal with the anxiety of a diagnosis? In many cases in my experience, that can be just as detrimental to somebody’s well-being as the actual physical symptoms of the disease.  

Katherine Banwell:

When it comes to choosing therapy for polycythemia vera essential thrombocythemia, or myelofibrosis, it’s important to work with your healthcare team to identify what is going to work best for you. So, to begin, would you define shared decision making and why is this critical to properly managing life with an MPN? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. Shared decision-making, to me, is really about the physician or whoever is on the healthcare team providing the patient all of the information needed to make a good decision. That means what are we trying to do? What is the medication or invention going to accomplish? What are the side effects because there are always side effects.  

And what do we think that’s going to do or how is that going to impact the patient’s life? Where things get nuanced is that patients come to us because we have expertise. There are two extremes. One extreme is that the physician says this is the medication you should take. End of discussion. The other extreme though is also not helpful, which is to say to a patient here are five choices. Here are the side effects. You pick one. Our job is to lay out those side effects and the benefits but then, also help guide a decision. 

Katherine Banwell:

What are treatment goals and how are they determined?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It depends on the disease to a large extent. Now, when we’re dealing with ET and PV, the primary goal of our interventions is to reduce the risk of a clotting event or bleeding event. And that usually involves controlling the blood counts in some cases, not in all patients with ET. 

Sometimes aspirin is all we do. Myelofibrosis is a little bit more complicated because it depends on what the problem is. Not all myelofibrosis patients have the same challenges. Some have anemia that needs treatment. Some have a big spleen. Some have symptoms and some have nothing and they just need observation. So, it’s a bigger list with MF patients. But I think the first part of the discussion always is defining what the goal needs to be. 

Katherine Banwell:

What factors are considered when choosing therapy for ET, PV, and MF? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think a couple of things. One is what medication we think is going to benefit the patient best. That has to take into account the individual, their willingness to take certain medications, for example, pills versus interferon injection. Some people have an aversion to self-injection, which we have to take that into account. What are the other medical conditions that the patient is dealing with? 

And the reality is, in some cases, it’s cost because these medications, depending on a patient’s insurance, can have quite a different spread in terms of cost. Unfortunately, that is something we have to take into account. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk about what sort of tests should be done following an MPN diagnosis. Can you tell me about those? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. Fundamental to the MPN itself, the things that we really want to know is, in most cases, a bone marrow examination is needed because that will tell us really what the disease is that we’re dealing with. It will tell us about the genetics. I strongly believe we have to be comprehensive in our genetic assessments because that does prognosticate and sometimes gives us an opportunity in terms of treatment. Chromosomal analysis. These are the basic bread and butter hematology tests we want to do from the bone marrow to really understand what the patient’s disease is. 

Beyond that, I think that particularly in patients with PV and ET, it’s important that we partner with their primary care physicians to make sure that they’ve had, for example, testing for diabetes, a recent lipid profile, any cardiovascular tests, particularly measurements of blood pressure because these things are all important in terms of an ET or PV patient’s risk of having a blood clot. So, there are, again, things that are within hematology realm but then, there are other general health things that become really important in somebody who is diagnosed with PV or ET. 

Katherine Banwell:

How often should lab tests of blood work be done? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It really depends on the patient. For some patients with PV, for example, they need to have their blood checked every three weeks because they’re having frequent phlebotomies. Whereas some patients with ET could probably go forward to six months between blood tests.  

So, it depends on the individual. 

Katherine Banwell:

How can results of biomarker testing affect treatment choices for patients with MPNs? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

 question. The genetics are becoming increasingly important in our treatment decisions. So, let’s take a simple example, which is patients with ET. Calreticulin and JAK2 and MPL are the three most common mutations that we see. But they have very different invocation. So, somebody could have a calreticulin-mutated ET and based on them having that calreticulin mutation and no other factors like no history of clotting, that patient may never need to go on a medication aside from aspirin. And even early on, it’s debatable whether or not some of these patients really need aspirin at all. 

Whereas somebody who had a JAK-2 mutant ET, our guidelines and data suggests that that person, once they reach a certain age, should probably be on medication. So, that’s kind of perhaps one of our more clearcut examples of a genetic biomarker telling us how to approach treatment. 

And then, it gets more nuanced from that and more exciting and interesting in the sense that there are mutations, for example, that occur in myelofibrosis and in patients whose disease is progressing towards leukemia, such as IDH mutations. And these are things that are now targetable with FDA-approved drugs.  

And there are now clinical trials combining JAK inhibitors and IDH inhibitors for patients who have more advanced disease who have these IDH mutations. So, you go from on one end, these genomic markers being of prognostic significance and now, on the other hand, we’re getting to a point where, in some cases, they might tell us how to best treat a patient. 

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, should all patients diagnosed with MPN’s undergo molecular testing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I strongly believe that. I think that we’ve learned so much that these tests have prognostic value. 

And in some cases, it may suggest a slightly different diagnosis. I definitely think that should be the case. 

Katherine Banwell:

What should patients be asking once they have the results? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

What does it mean? That’s the most basic and fundamental question. It’s one thing to get a list of mutations. But the real bread and butter question is what does this mean to the disease and my prognosis and my treatment?  Those are the key questions.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, what are the types of treatments available for MPNs?  And let’s start with myelofibrosis or MF. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

If we had had this discussion five years ago, it would be pretty simple, and it would take a minute or two. And that’s completely changing and that’s amazing, and it’s good for all of our patients.  

Right now, for patients with MF, it depends on what the issue is. If the issue is symptoms or spleen, JAK inhibitors are our first line of therapy. Three approved JAK inhibitors are currently available, two on the first side ruxolitinib (Jakafi) and fedratinib (Inrebic). And pacritinib (Vonjo) can be used for patients with really low platelet counts.   

There is a fourth JAK inhibitor that we expect to be, hopefully, approved in June of this year, momelotinib. So, the landscape is about to complete broaden in terms of just JAK inhibitors.  

But beyond the JAK inhibitors themselves, there are a number of late stage clinical trials that are combining JAK inhibitors with agents that work through a different mechanism that don’t work through inhibition of the JAK pathway. So far, these drugs have all shown promise in early phase trials. Now, the definitive Phase III trials are being done. We have to wait and see what the data tells us. But if these are positive trials, this could completely alter the landscape of MPN. 

Katherine Banwell:

There’s also transplants available, right? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Correct. Transplants for more advanced patients, which comes with some major risks. And so, that has to be thought of very carefully in terms of the risks and benefit. But it is a potentially curative strategy.  

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s turn to polycythemia vera or PV. What types of treatments are available? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s really quite a range. So, there are things like phlebotomy and aspirin, which has been the mainstay of therapy for many years. There are drugs like hydroxyurea (Hydrea), interferons, JAK inhibitors. So, ruxolitinib is approved in certain settings for treating polycythemia vera. So, the landscape is broad. There are a lot of questions going on right now with polycythemia vera with regards to how it should best be treated. Is the mainstay of phlebotomy and aspirin really what we should be doing or should we be giving patients treatment earlier on. 

And there is some data to suggest that. There is this drug called ropeginterferon (Besremi) that’s FDA-approved for polycythemia, which was compared in the study to phlebotomy and aspirin.  

And at least the data suggests that there may be better control of the disease and less progression possibly, and it’s a small number of patients, by treating patients earlier. Whereas we would have just given phlebotomy and aspirin. So, it’s something to consider. There are drugs in clinical trials as well that look promising one of which is called rusfertide, which actually works by changing the way iron is used by the body. 

Iron is a key component to hemoglobin and it is, of course, a key component to polycythemia in the sense that we phlebotomize patients to make them iron deficient and that’s how we control the disease. But this is a pharmacological way to do that. So, that drug is now in Phase III trials. So, that may also alter the landscape of treatment of PV in the near future. 

Katherine Banwell:

Finally, how is essential thrombocythemia treated? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

So, in some cases, with absolutely nothing as we had talked about a moment ago. There is some thought that in really, really low-risk patients. Maybe you don’t need to do anything except observe them. Whereas most patients are on an aspirin. And beyond that, we have drugs like interferon, pegylated interferon, and hydroxyurea and anagrelide, all of which can be utilized. It’s not entirely clear if there is one distinct first line treatment that is the best but these drugs are all active. JAK inhibitors have been studied in this setting. And to date, the data hasn’t led to their approval but, certainly, people have studied it.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, how can you tell if a treatment is effective? Are there signs that you look for? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, I think it’s a couple of things.  

One, are we meeting the treatment goals in terms of are we controlling blood counts with ET or PV? That’s one of the first principles in management. And with regards to MF, the same thing. Are patients’ symptoms being controlled? Is the spleen being adequately controlled? And then, there’s the symptom burden because just because the blood counts are being controlled, patients may still have symptoms, in which case, they are not being adequately treated. And then, we have to do our best to try to find a treatment strategy that does control their blood counts but also does control their symptoms. 

So, there is the blood count perspective but there is the symptom perspective as well. 

Katherine Banwell:

How do you know when it’s time to change treatments? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, I think really two things. One is if we aren’t meeting our goals like we just talked about. But the other aspect of that is if we are incurring toxicities that are just not tolerable to the patient and that’s a reason to change therapy always. 

Katherine Banwell:

Many patients, of course, worry about disease progression. Are there key predictors or tests for progression that patients should know about? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

This is a key area of investigation currently. I think one of the things that patients say to us so often when we meet them is what’s going to happen to me. And right now, we don’t have great prediction tools. We can say on a population level well, there is X percent of chance of progression at 15 years. That’s useful if you’re talking about a population. That’s not really useful if you’re talking to an individual. Because if I say to somebody there’s a 20 percent chance of your disease progressing to leukemia, it doesn’t really make a difference. That’s a meaningless statement because if you’re in the 20 percent who progress, it’s not a relevant statistic anymore.  

It’s sort of a binary thing. We’ve got to do better at developing this. This is something that the MPN Research Foundation is really heavily invested in in trying to identify predictive biomarkers. 

If we can do that, then perhaps what we can do is say to a patient this is really what we think your actual risk is. And then, the next step is asking the question if we intervene early, can we prevent that progression from occurring. So, that’s where I think we need to go. We aren’t there yet. 

Katherine Banwell:

What signs or symptoms do you look for that may indicate that the disease is progressing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The blood counts are often the canary in the coal mine regardless of the disease. They can tell us if ET or PV is progressing into MF or whether MF is progressing to more of a leukemic phase. Changes in symptoms sometimes can be a harbinger of disease progression. So, Patient 2, for example, is doing really well and now, he’s having drenching sweats and losing weight. So, those types of symptoms are a sign that physical findings is the size of the spleen if it’s increasing. 

All of those things together give us a hint about progression.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, is there any way to prevent progression?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

That is the million dollar question. Again, that’s where we ultimately need to be. We want to be able to intervene to a point where patients don’t get that sick. It would be amazing if we’d come to the point where we can intervene early and nobody progresses to late stage MF. Nobody gets leukemia. And I think that’s a worthy goal. That’s not something that we should think is too lofty of a goal. That should be our ultimate goal here. And a number of groups are investigating this exact question. It’s complicated and it’s going to take time. But I think that’s a worthwhile investment. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk about MPN symptoms and treatment side effects. Here’s a question we received from a viewer before the program. How common is peripheral neuropathy in primary myelofibrosis? 

And what is the best treatment for it? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, by itself, it’s not a very common symptom of MF by itself. Can it be a symptom? Sure. But there are also a number of things that can cause peripheral neuropathy. So, I’m not sure there’s a best treatment.   

But what needs to be done is a thorough investigation. There can be a number of causes. It could be nerve injury. It could be a deficiency in vitamins like B12. There are a lot of things that could cause it. So, that type of a symptom needs to be thought of in a broad way in terms of diagnosis.  

Katherine Banwell:

Jeff sent in this question. How could I manage the itching? Are there new treatments or strategies to live with itching? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Very common thing. And it’s an interesting thing explaining to when we teach our trainees about this symptom, we have to impress on them the fact that itching is not the itching that everybody else experiences. 

This is a very profoundly different symptom. It’s debilitating for so many people. I have patients who go to the Emergency Room for that. That’s how terrible it could be. There are a lot of things that could be tried. JAK inhibitors, in my experience, work very well for itching but not in everybody. We use sometimes antihistamines that can work well. Sometimes, antidepressants can work well, not because they’re treating depression but because of other properties that they have. And sometimes, UV light therapy can be useful tool here, too. A lot of patients swear by it. 

 Katherine Banwell:

Another common side effect is fatigue. Do you have any advice for managing this symptom? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Fatigue is the most common symptom across MPNs. And it is also one of the most difficult things to treat. Part of the issue is trying to figure out what does fatigue mean to the patient.  

When someone says they’re tired, does that mean they’re sleeping all of the time? Does that mean they don’t have get up and go? The first step is always understanding what does fatigue mean to the patient? And then, the second is trying to dissect that. In some cases, it’s related to anemia, in some cases, it’s not related to anemia and it’s just the disease itself.  

And in some cases, you have to think outside of the box about general medical issues like thyroid dysfunction that could be at play here. So, there isn’t one best fit. 

But the first test is always to dig deep. When someone says they have fatigue to dig deeper and try to figure out what is that really. 

Katherine Banwell: 

What other common symptoms do you hear about from patients? And what can be done about those?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

There are a lot of different things. It’s a spectrum. So, I think that itching and fatigue are very common. Feeling full early is, that’s a big thing, particularly in myelofibrosis patients.  

Bone pain, that’s another big one, particularly in myelofibrosis. There is not one therapy that is best for all. I think the JAK inhibitors, certainly, benefit many of these symptoms. But they don’t benefit everybody and not to the extent that makes it tolerable for everybody. So, often times, we struggle with this and try a lot of different things. But, again, I think one of the things to always remember is we don’t always want to say that this must be because of the MPN. Sometimes, symptom is arising because of another medical condition that’s going on concurrently. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s good advice. Thank you. Let’s answer a few more audience questions we received. This one is from Calvin, “If your hematologist says you’re stable and responding well to Hydrea, should you still seek out a second opinion?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s never wrong to seek out a second opinion. I strongly believe that, especially when you’re dealing with a disease that’s rare like this. 

And even seeking out a second opinion, even if you’re under the care of an expert in the field is never a wrong thing. I think that no one person knows everything. And sometimes, people’s experience and perspective is different. So, I don’t think that’s a bad thing ever.  

Katherine Banwell:

As a follow-up to Calvin’s question, is it sufficient to just look at what the blood tests reveal? Or does having  bone marrow biopsy dictate what treatment you should follow? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think the bone marrow is important, particularly at initial diagnosis or when there is a change. The blood counts are the canary in the coal mine. So, they tell us is there something else going on that we’re not thinking about. And that’s when the bone marrow becomes important. So, I definitely think bone marrow is important at certain points in the disease.  

Katherine Banwell:

Sandra has this question, “Are there new treatments for polycythemia vera being researched beyond interferon?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. So, we talked about rusfertide as an example of this. And there are, certainly, other drugs that have been evaluated in this space. So, there is a lot of work going on for this disease, which is really encouraging. 

Katherine Banwell:

Carolyn sent in this question, “Is there a possibility of bone marrow fibrosis reversal in myelofibrosis without a stem cell transplant?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The answer is yes. So, even with JAK inhibitors, we see that about a third of patients will have a reduction in bone marrow fibrosis. And this is a key question being investigated with some of the newer therapies that are being introduced into the treatment of myelofibrosis. And, certainly, we’ve seen data to date that suggests that the fibrosis can be reduced if not potentially eliminated in some cases.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, should all patients diagnosed with MPNs undergo molecular testing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I strongly believe that. I think that we’ve learned so much that these tests are prognostic value. 

And in some cases, it may suggest a slightly different diagnosis. I definitely think that should be the case. 

Katherine Banwell:

What should patients be asking once they have the results? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

What does it mean? That’s the most basic and fundamental question. It’s one thing to get a list of mutations. But the real bread and butter question is what does this mean to the disease and my prognosis and my treatment?  Those are the key questions. 

Katherine Banwell:

Andrew wants to know does Jakafi cause other mutations to develop? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

That’s a really good question. Right now, we don’t think the answer is necessarily yes. We have seen that in some patients where the disease has progressed on Jakafi, mutations have emerged. 

But the problem is that genetic testing has limits of detection. In other words, the mutation appears, it may not have just appeared or been caused by the drug but that it may have been below our limits of detection and actually grew while the patient was on therapy, which does not mean that the drug caused the mutation but that it was allowed to emerge during treatment with the specific drug. So, that is an area of investigation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, thank you, Dr. Rampal. And please continue to send in your questions to question@powerfulpatients.org and we’ll work to get them answered on future webinars.  

You mentioned earlier clinical trials. And I’d like to dig a little bit deeper. Where do these fit into the treatment plan? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think they should always be considered. None of the therapies that we have do we consider curative. And in many cases, standard therapy is fine given a patient’s clinical situation. In a case where standard therapy is not working or where we think that a patient’s prognosis is particularly challenging, or if they have mutations that may confer resistance to current therapies. 

I think in those scenarios, a trial should always be considered. 

Katherine Banwell:

So, if a patient is interested in possibly participating in a clinical trial, what kinds of questions should they be asking their healthcare team? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

All of these trials are different. I think the first thing is to discuss what’s the risk, what’s the benefit of any given trial or drug. What stage and development is it? What’s the evidence to support it? And what can I expect from it?   

Katherine Banwell:

What about cost? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

So, trials, in general, have two components. One is what we call standard of care meaning that things we would do normally for in the course of a patient’s treatment would be billed to a patient’s insurance as if they weren’t on a trial. 

Almost all trials, the study drug or any tests that are being done specifically with regards to the study drug are all covered by whoever is sponsoring the trial.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do patients find out about where the clinical trials are taking place? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Usually, their physician should either, if they’re in a specialized center, they’ll have access there. But if they’re interested in trials and they’re being seen, for example, by a physician in the community who doesn’t necessarily specialize, asking for a referral to a major center where that MPN expertise is not an unreasonable approach to that. There is also clinicaltrials.gov where patients can go look for ongoing trials for their particular diagnosis.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, if patients want to learn more about MPNs, what sort of resources would you recommend? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The thing I always say to patients is the internet is a very dangerous place for a variety of reasons. We have to, I think, do a good job of communicating to patients what are the resources. And the ones that I always point patients to are, for example, the MPN Advocacy International, the MPN Research Foundation, The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, and the American Cancer Society. Those are sources of information that are vetted by physicians. 

Some of that information is specifically for patients. Those, to me, are good sources for patients to read.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to get your thoughts on where we stand with progress and MPN care. Are there advances in research and treatment that make you hopeful? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Without a doubt. I think I’ve seen more progress in the last three years than I’ve seen in the last 10 years. And we have so many new drugs coming forward, new questions that we’re trying to answer, tough questions as you alluded to. The question about prognosis but also intervening early to prevent progression of disease. These are things that are difficult questions that we are trying to dig into now. So, I think we should be optimistic. We are seeing so many excellent developments. We’ll have to see how far they’re going to take us. I don’t think we know the answer to that. But this is an exciting time.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, thank you so much for joining us. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

My pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us today.   

Empowered! Podcast: Meet Andrea Conners

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Today, we’re extremely proud to introduce our first-ever Empowered! podcast. Empowered! will bring you conversations around topics that are important to patients and care partners.

For our first episode, we meet Andrea Conners. Andrea is Patient Empowerment Network’s Executive Director. Andrea shares a little bit about herself, about PEN, and her inspiration in getting involved.

 

…

Why Getting a 2nd and 3rd Opinion Made a Difference In Her Cancer Treatment, With Sasha Denisova

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This podcast was originally publish on WE Have Cancer by Lee Silverstein on May 7, 2019 here.

Sasha Denisova – WE Have Cancer

Seeking out a 2nd and 3rd opinion in her cancer treatment resulted in a dramatic improvement in Sasha Denisova’s quality of life.

Sasha first appeared on this podcast in Episode 83 where she shared the struggle she faced getting doctors to take her colorectal cancer symptoms seriously.

During our latest conversation she discussed why she made the decision to forego treatment at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota to seek treatment at Memorial Sloan Kettering in New York City. We also discussed:

  • How she got the courage to challenge the initial treatment recommendations made by her doctor and why it’s important for everyone to advocate for their best care.
  • The importance 0f seeking out opinions from the top rated cancer facilities in the U.S.
  • How she eased herself back into working out in the gym and why working with a guided fitness instructor was important.
  • Why exercise is vital to her well-being and how most cancer patients can find an exercise routine that works for them.

Take Control Of Your Care When You’re Seriously Sick via NPR

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This podcast was originally publish on NPR by John Henning Schumann, Mara Gordon, and Chloee Weiner on September 7, 2019 here.

Finding out you have a serious medical condition can leave you reeling. These strategies from medical and lay experts will help you be in control as you navigate our complex health care system and get the best possible care.

Here’s what to remember:

1. Your primary care doctor is the captain of your health care team.

With any serious diagnosis, there will usually be more specialists to see. Having a primary care doctor you trust helps coordinate the information flow and keep track of the big picture. Your primary is on her toes for possible medication interactions. Regular preventive measures shouldn’t be overlooked, either.

2. Don’t be afraid to get a second opinion.

If you’re offered treatment such as chemotherapy or surgery that can be life-altering, it’s crucial to get more than one opinion, ideally from a doctor working for a different institution. Oncologists and surgeons expect patients to seek second opinions — many provide them as a major part of their practice. If your doctor resents you seeking more opinions, that’s a red flag.

3. Get organized, stay organized, and find someone to help you if you can’t do it yourself.

Make a list of what you hope to accomplish at the doctor’s office. If for some reason you aren’t able to take notes, bring someone along who can act as an advocate and make sure your concerns aren’t overlooked. Ask for copies of your medical chart and test results so that you are part of the conversation — you have a legal right to see your records.

4. If you need a procedure, go to someone who does it all the time.

It’s true for medical care as it is in life: The more a doctor does a procedure, the better at it she’ll be. This means fewer complications and better outcomes. It’s OK to ask your doctor how many times she’s done a procedure; a high volume means competence when things go as planned, and calmness for unforeseen complications.

5. Use the Internet, but use it wisely.

Contrary to what you may think, your doctor wants you to be well-informed and engaged with your health. There’s more medical information available online than ever before, but a lot of it is garbage. Stick with trusted sources like the National Library of Medicine, PubMed.gov, or learn about and use the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force.

6. Figure out what matters to you, and fight for it

Our default setting for health care is that more testing is always good. But that’s often not the case, as tests have side effects and can cause undue anxiety because of false positives or incidental findings. Have a frank conversation with your doctor about your values and what you want (and don’t want!) and you’ll be an empowered patient with a doctor as your advocate, not your adversary.

Learning How to Simplify Cancer With Joe Bakhmoutski

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This podcast was originally publish on WE Have Cancer by Lee Silverstein on June 18, 2019 here.

Joe Bakhmoutski – WE Have Cancer

Joe Bakhmoutski was diagnosed with Testicular cancer in 2016.He founded Simplify Cancer  to provide support and advice to those touched by cancer. During our conversation we discussed:

  • Why he created Simplify Cancer
  • How he came to be diagnosed with Testicular cancer
  • How people perceive various cancers and how some are deemed “embarrassing”
  • What patients can do to prepare for their first oncologist appointment and the free tool he offers on his website to assist with this.
  • The book he’s writing to help men dealing with cancer.

Links Mentioned in the Show

Simplify Cancer – http://simplifycancer.com/