PODCAST: Why Test Results Matter | Accessing Personalized Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer Treatment

/in , , , , , /by

Can test results affect non-small cell lung cancer treatment options? Dr. Erin Schenk reviews essential lung cancer testing, discusses how the results may influence treatment approaches, and explains why it’s important for patients to take an active role in their care and treatment choices.

Dr. Erin Schenk is a medical oncologist, lung cancer researcher, and assistant professor in the division of medical oncology at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Center.

Download Program Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Lung Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello, and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today we’re going to discuss the latest advances in lung cancer including the role of genetic testing and how this may affect treatment options. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Erin Schenk. Dr. Schenk, welcome, would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

And thanks so much, Katherine. I’m Dr. Erin Schenk. I’m a medical oncologist at the University of Colorado and I have a great position where I’m able to take care of patients with lung cancer in the clinic and also, do laboratory-based research on new and different therapies for lung cancer. Thanks so much for having me. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s so great. Oh, I’m so glad you were able to join us today. Because this program is part of our Insist series which empowers patients to insist on better care. Can you tell us why you think it’s important for patients to speak up and engage in their lung cancer care decisions?  

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely, and I think as a physician it’s important not only to partner with patients but as well as their loved ones and their caregivers who help navigate this diagnosis of lung cancer. There are some diagnoses in the world, cancer being one of them and lung cancer especially that can turn everything upside down. So, it completely changes your world. Suddenly the life as you’ve been living it, the plans you had they all have to be paused or halted in some way to get care for the lung cancer diagnosis.  

One of the – and one of the really hopeful parts about being a doctor who cares for patients with lung cancer is just the speed of the advancements and the speed of the changes in the treatment options that we have for patients diagnosed with really any type of lung cancer.  

And so, I think it’s really important when you’re meeting with your team and you’re talking with your cancer doctor to really try to understand what is the information that they use to make some of these decisions or referrals on your behalf? And also, think about, is there an opportunity for me to get another opinion about what might be the best options? 

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that Dr. Schenk, that’s helpful as we begin our discussion today. I’d like to start with some basics. What are the various subtypes of lung cancer, and how are they identified?  

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely. So, there are a number of different subtypes of lung cancer that are important for us to identify, because it helps to stratify or helps to select the right treatment approaches for a patient. So, usually when someone is diagnosed with lung cancer there was a scan done at some point that noticed a mass or masses in the body. 

What happens next is a biopsy happens where a needle is used to sample the tissue, and that could be in the lung, that could be in lymph nodes or other parts of the body and that tissue that’s sampled is first sent to my colleagues in pathology.  

And they’re a group of doctors who look at tissues underneath the microscope and try to identify what those are. And based on that initial pathology analysis, we can identify usually pretty straightforward, what is the type of cancer that they see under the microscope.  

And so, in very general terms there are non-small cell lung cancers, there is a group called small cell lung cancers, and there’s also a group called neuroendocrine cancers as well. Oftentimes, times we’re able to differentiate these types of tumors, these types of lung cancers based on how different markers show up, and these are called stains. 

And these stains can differentiate non-small cell between adenocarcinoma versus squamous cell carcinoma. And then they can also help differentiate small cell lung cancer. And then, of course, they can also help to identify if this is a neuroendocrine tumor. 

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Thank you so much for explaining that. Today we’re going to focus on non-small cell lung cancer. Are there specific tests that patients should ask their doctor for following a diagnosis?  

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely, and I think it’s sometimes helpful to understand what are all the pieces of information I need when I first meet a patient to make decisions about treatments? So, we just went over the histology or another word, the pathology, what does the cancer look like underneath – under the microscope? That can help and that’s one of the pieces, understanding what type of non-small cell lung cancer is present. 

Additional information that’s needed includes certain tests, and you might hear say like, molecular testing or sequencing. Those pieces of information can be really important for treatment selection. So, whether there’s a diagnosis of adenocarcinoma or squamous cell lung cancer, we always try to know the PD-L1 status. And that’s actually a surface marker that’s present on the outside of the cancer cells and is able to help us select immunotherapy treatments as appropriate.  

Oftentimes, patients with lung adenocarcinoma will get further sequencing of the tumor itself. And again, you might hear of this called molecular testing or next-generation sequencing, NGS. There are a lot of terms we use for it, but fundamentally, what we’re trying to do is understand the vulnerabilities of the cancer cells. 

And these vulnerabilities can be identified by these molecular tests. They often are able to recognize mutations or fusions or genetic changes within the cancer cells that are present. This is critically important, because we have a whole number of oral targeted therapies that can go after these mutations or alterations, and in other words, they go after the vulnerability in the cancer cells. That’s the adenocarcinoma histology.  

That’s the majority of non-small cell lung cancer diagnoses but I think also if you have been told your diagnosis is of squamous lung cancer, classically we don’t often think of those driver alterations or those fusions or mutations that I just spoke about. But I think it’s also quite important for patients in that situation to also undergo molecular testing.   

As we learn more and more, sometimes those squamous lung cancers can also bear those same alterations. Not to the same frequency, but they can be present, and I think it’s important as you’re thinking about a patient to try to understand what are all the tools I have for them to do that sequencing just to make sure you’re not missing something. So, that’s a really in-depth look to molecular testing.  

I’d like to transition to some of the other tests that would be necessary to help put that molecular testing in context. Another important piece is something called staging. And staging is a way to determine if the lung cancer has traveled elsewhere in the body.  

Sometimes it can be involved in the lymph nodes of the middle of the chest. Sometimes it can go outside the chest. For example, to the bones or the liver or the brain, and understanding that information, understanding that lay of the land before we start treatment, is really important, not only for treatment selection, like the treatments, the medicines I would give as a medical oncologist.  

But also, in thinking about which other colleagues of mine who help take care of patients with lung cancer should I also involve in some of these treatment decisions. So, staging can often involve CT scans of the chest, abdomen, pelvis. A PET scan can be done. As well as an MRI of the brain. 

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Schenk, I just want to confirm that you’ve been speaking about molecular testing, that’s the same as biomarker testing, right?  

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Exactly. Exactly.  

Katherine Banwell:

And how is it performed? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

So, biomarker testing, molecular testing, NGS, there’s a whole range of synonyms we use, that is done primarily on the tumor tissue.   

So, the first test that usually comes back is a marker on the cancer cell. 

That’s PD-L1. That is an IHC test that is able to be done pretty quickly and we’re able to have a turnaround time of just a few days to understand that first biomarker. But the PD-L1 status does not make sense unless we have all of the other information to get the best context, the best understanding of the tumor and what drives the tumor. That additional testing is actually the next-generation sequencing where the genetic material of cancer cells, the DNA and RNA is sequenced in a laboratory to look for those mutations or fusions or other alterations that can drive the cancer cells. And again, it helps me identify additional vulnerabilities in the cancer cells to allow me to pick the optimal therapy for the patient in front of me. 

The tissue testing is the gold standard and we try to get all of our answers from the tissue. Sometimes we’re also able to get additional information from the blood, and that’s what’s called a liquid biopsy. Cancer cells – in some patients, cancer cells shed their genetic material into the bloodstream.  

And these specialized tests are able to pick up that genetic material, have the sequencing done on that, and then report back to me about what may or may not be found.  

Now, as I mentioned, not all of lung cancers shed this information into the blood, so it’s not – if the blood does not reveal an answer or information, that’s – we still need to look closer at the tissue, but occasionally if the blood reveals certain alterations, that can be acted upon, and we don’t have to wait for the tissue testing. 

I think one of the challenges that I absolutely sympathize with their biomarker or molecular testing is that it can take a series of weeks to really get all of the information necessary to make the best choice for the patient in front of us.  

And I have a saying I like to share with patients that is really important and I think really fundamental to the treatment choices for patients with lung cancer and that is, it’s better to get started on the right treatment rather than the fast one, and that’s true. We know through a series of clinical trials that if I were to start a patient on a treatment that wasn’t appropriate to their biomarkers I actually hurt them. So, I actually reduce how well their later therapies will work. 

And so, it’s a tough wait and I anxiously wait with all of my patients but it’s a really important – it’s really important to get all of that information together. 

Katherine Banwell:

Well, would the cancer change dramatically over a period of three or four weeks? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

That’s it, you know, that’s a question I hear a lot from patients, and, again, to empathize with the agony of waiting, it’s hard to wait but I can tell you as a doctor who’s taken care of many, many patients with lung cancer the weeks do not make a difference in terms of will have – will it hurt me? So, it will not in general it does not hurt to wait. It’s better to get started on the right treatment because the right treatment has the highest chance of being effective. 

So, the two to three weeks very rarely in my experience has that changed a situation for a patient, but that’s also why we frequently do the liquid biopsy testing at the same time as the tissue testing, because we too want to try to get the answer as quick as possible. So, we try to exhaust all of the routes that we have to get the answer that we need for our patients. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about the latest advances, is there anything in lung cancer testing that patients should know about? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Yes, absolutely. I think more and more we’re using these liquid biopsies in different situations for patients with lung cancer. So, Katherine, you and I have mostly been talking about patients who’ve been diagnosed with metastatic disease or a disease that’s been spread outside of the lungs. The liquid biopsy testing, though we’re starting to use in patients who have tumors we can remove with surgery or tumors we can try to cure with a combination of chemotherapy and radiation therapy. 

And we’re using more as a marker of response, and what I mean by that is let’s say someone with a cancer that can be surgically resected or removed by surgery, we can check their liquid biopsy. And if we see a marker in their liquid biopsy, we can then follow that over time in conjunction with scans to try to understand is the cancer – you know, with all the information we can, is the cancer completely gone or are we starting to see that marker again? Do we need to think about doing different scans or different tests to look for a potential area of recurrence of the cancer? 

Katherine Banwell:

What sort of questions should patients be asking about their test results? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

I think the primary question is “Have you sent my tissue for biomarker testing?” 

And this is true – in my opinion, this is true regardless of the stage of diagnosis, again in the non-small cell lung cancer space, and that’s because we are starting to use some of our targeted therapies as well as our immunotherapies in patients with cancer that can be resected by surgery or maybe would get chemotherapy and radiation therapy. So, these biomarkers are also important in that decision-making for patients that have an earlier stage of disease. And so, I think the first question is, “Has my tissue been sent for biomarker testing?” because I think that’s a part as a necessary part of care given the advances that we’ve made.  

That’s the first question, two, “When do you expect the results? When did it get sent off?” and then three, you know once that has been sent off and whether that’s tissue testing, liquid biopsy, or both, talking with your doctor and your team about what it means.  

How they incorporate this data into your treatment decisions, and then occasionally, asking about did they get all the information they need? Because while we’ve been able to do this biomarker testing for lung cancer for years now, you know, no test is perfect and sometimes cancer cells aren’t the best material to start with when you’re trying to get a really definitive answer.  

So, occasionally patients might need to be biopsied again to really and truly get the full spectrum of information necessary prior to making treatment decisions.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, great suggestions. Great ideas, thank you. We’re hearing the term personalized medicine a lot these days. Would you define the term for our audience? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely, and I think the treatment of non-small cell lung cancer is one of the poster childs for children – for personalized medicine because based on the result of the biomarker testing that’s what drives my choice of therapy because the biomarkers help to tell me what is this cancer most likely to be vulnerable to and that in my mind that’s a wonderful application of the promise of personalized medicine.   

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Let’s move on to treatment now, Dr. Schenk. Would you walk us through the current treatments being used to treat non-small cell lung cancer? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely, and there are a broad range of options, and thankfully we have so many choices in how to best help patients. And it’s often why visiting with a center that sees a lot of patients with lung cancer can be beneficial so that you have all of the parties at the table that need to be there as we’re making these treatment decisions. So, I would start thinking about patients with early-stage disease. Often surgery if tumors are small enough and there’s not you know, no lymph nodes are involved with the cancer and it’s not anywhere else.  

Sometimes surgery is all that patients might need in terms of their treatment. Those are for patients with smaller tumors and really early-stage disease. As we move forward in the stages, meaning going from stage one to stage two, so a little bit bigger of a tumor, lymph nodes might be involved.  

That’s when really the multi-disciplinary approach happens, and what I mean by that is for example, at my institution where people like me, medical oncologists, radiation oncologists, and surgeons all sit down together to talk about a patient, their scans, you know, what is their health status, what is their biomarker testing, to try to come together to form a treatment approach. And so, at our institution, you know, frequently in stage two to stage three tumors based on biomarker testing we either select upfront surgery followed by chemotherapy followed by sometimes targeted therapies or TKIs.  

Those are the medicines, the TKI, those are the medicines that are really dependent on the presence of biomarker testing. So, the biomarkers often tell us for example if there’s an EGFR mutation. If that’s present then I would use an EGFR TKI, for example. 

But if those biomarkers don’t show a alteration where I have TKI to use, then we frequently are giving patients chemotherapy plus immunotherapy before surgery. This approach is called a neoadjuvant chemoimmunotherapy approach, and it’s one of the newer changes to lung cancer care within the past year that I think really is going to have a positive impact on outcomes for patients with lung cancer.   

So, just again in broad strokes, and then as we move into stage three patients where we can’t resect the tumor, that’s where we give chemotherapy medicines plus radiation therapy. Oftentimes followed by immunotherapy and then when patients have disease that spread outside of the chest, outside of the lungs, the metastatic setting or stage IV, that’s when we think about the whole host of therapies available through medical oncology, systemic therapies is another way to call them.  

And there we think about immunotherapy-based treatments plus or minus chemotherapy or we think about targeted therapy-based approaches with those TKIs. And again, it’s all based on those molecular markers, those biomarkers. 

Katherine Banwell:

Do clinical trials play a role in lung cancer treatment? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Clinical trials are incredibly important for the treatment of lung cancer. These are the tests and the procedures that we do that have continuously advanced our ability to care for patients with lung cancer. You know, it was clinical trial data that helped us get alerted to doing chemotherapy and immunotherapy before surgery really can help patients do better. And similarly, clinical trials have helped us define when do we use TKIs or targeted therapies. 

So, I think that’s another great question to ask your team of, “Based on all of the information you know about me and my cancer are there clinical trials options that are available here where I’m at or ones that are really interesting or appealing elsewhere that might be worthwhile for me to consider?” So, clinical trials are a critical part of how we help patients do better.  

Katherine Banwell:

Personalizing therapy involves taking into account a number of patient factors. What should be considered when deciding on a treatment regimen for a given patient?   

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Yes. That’s a great question and one that is really important in formulating a treatment plan. So, some patients because of their health status, for example, aren’t able to undergo surgery, and that happens. And so, occasionally sort of their health status maybe their lungs don’t work as well as they used to or the heart doesn’t pump as well as it used to. 

You know, those sorts of health concerns can help us tailor and personalize treatments to what would be the most – the safest but also the most effective approach. Occasionally patients have another long-term chronic disease where using immunotherapy might be more dangerous than helpful because they’re sometimes autoimmune diseases.  

Especially ones that affect the brain, so for example multiple sclerosis can be one of those or disease that affect the lungs, you know, interstitial lung diseases. Those would put a patient at great risk of receiving immunotherapy, but outside of the health status, it’s also important I think to talk about what your preferences are as a patient as well.  

Because sometimes we will come to you and say, “Here are these multiple different choices and what’s important to you or maybe what you’re worried about or what you’re concerned about are considerations that we want to hear about and understand so that we can talk you through the process and help make some of these decisions.” You know, for example, if you’re receiving chemotherapy plus radiation together for your cancer care that can be a huge time commitment.  

What I mean by that is when patients get radiation in certain circumstances, that can be once a day every day, Monday through Friday for six weeks at a time and sometimes patients have challenges with transportation. Or sometimes they have you know, challenges balancing a job or childcare or other things like that. So, these are all part of the – just part of bringing it all together and putting together a treatment plan that makes sense for what we understand about the lung cancer itself, but also what we understand about you as our patient. 

You know, how can we make changes or make suggestions that would best fit for you and your needs? 

Katherine Banwell:

You’ve brought up some really good points and of course, patients should be involved in these decisions. If a patient is feeling uncomfortable with their care plan, why do you think it’s important for them to speak up? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

In my experience, when people are worried about certain things or they say they definitely don’t want this therapy it’s because they have seen other loved ones or family members suffer because of that particular type of treatment in the past. And I think bringing up those concerns can be helpful for me as someone’s doctor to talk them through, okay, this is what chemotherapy looks like. This is what we do to help reduce your side effects.  

These are the resources we have to support you through treatment if any of these side effects come about and I think I also impress upon them that receiving treatment is ultimately their decision now. My bias of course, I think we can help patients quite a bit with their treatments, but I think it’s also important to recognize you know, they have autonomy to say no at any point in time. And I think just acknowledging those fears, acknowledging those concerns, putting together a plan you know, before any of those potential worrisome side effects happen can be really powerful to help reduce some of the stress and worry around treatment. 

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Schenk, when should patients consider a second opinion or even consulting a specialist? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

I think any time it’s appropriate. We – at our institution, we’re one of the main lung cancer centers that – you know, within several hundred miles, so we frequently see patients and sometimes it’s just to check in and say you know, the patient says, “Here’s what my team has started me on. You know, what do you think should be the next approach?” and we talk about that, but really anytime I think is appropriate for reaching out for another set of eyes to look at things. I would say perhaps some of those most critical times would be prior to treatment starts especially if – yeah, I would say prior to starting a treatment with that new diagnosis.  

That would be a really critical time because often again, sometimes once we start down a treatment path, we’re in some ways we’re committed, but if that maybe isn’t the optimal treatment path based on, you know, the tumor and the biomarkers and the patient preference starting on that less optimal treatment path could potentially hurt patients in the long run. So, I would say at – you know, potentially at diagnosis when a treatment course is recommended and then if there is a need to change treatments.  

So, for example, especially in the metastatic setting there are certain therapies widely available. People are very familiar with them, can start them no problem, but when those treatments stop being beneficial that might be a time to also meet with a specialist or go to a lung cancer center of excellence to get their opinions on what to do next.  

Katherine Banwell:

You know, one thing patients are often concerned about is the financial aspect, the financial burden that is involved in their treatment care. How do they deal with that? Are there resources available for them? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

There can be and this definitely can vary based on what treatment you’re being given and where you are, at what institution and what state you’re being treated at since resources are different. But for example, the targeted therapies or the TKIs I made reference to earlier, those can have some significant out-of-pocket costs and most of the,  if not all of the manufacturers of those various TKIs have patient assistance programs that help to reduce the out-of-pocket costs for those specific medicines.  

When I prescribe a TKI for a patient often what’s part of that is a prior authorization to try to understand what’s the out-of-pocket cost for the patient and then kind of get on top of whether or not we need to apply for patient assistance to help pay for the cost of that medication. So, that’s one way that we can help. 

I think, in again, this is specific to my institution and our clinical practice, but we often have – we work very closely with other cancer doctors in the community. So, if traveling to our site is a major burden we can usually have them visit with a oncologist who’s close to them so there’s less travel, there’s less costs in you know gas and staying somewhere. But they still can be connected with us. So, while they can get most of their care under a doctor that’s closer to them, every so often they come back and see me and just talk about how things are going and what you know might be worthwhile to consider down the road.  

And I would also recommend that if there are other costs or concerns you know, kind of above and beyond these things that we’ve touched on, connecting with a social worker through the cancer center can be helpful in dealing with paperwork for disability or retirement or sometimes connecting to resources if there’s a childcare need. 

Or you’re caring for a spouse and you need additional help at home. You know all of the different burdens that are present in life that just get magnified with a cancer diagnosis and you know, we can – there’s usually a really big attempt to try to find a way to help figure out navigating those so that you can get the care you need.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Before we close, Dr. Schenk, I’d like to get your final thoughts. What would you like to leave the audience with? Are you hopeful? 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Yes. There are tremendous – there has been tremendous growth and change in the practice in how we treat patients with lung cancer, even just in the past handful of years and it’s made marked improvements in how well people do and for how long they do well. 

And that – you know that trajectory I anticipate continuing based on the clinical trials I’ve been involved with as well as the data I hear about from other clinical trials thinking about new and different medicines that we could use in the diagnosis of lung cancer. As well as applying some of the medicines we already have in different ways and different situations you know, to help better control the cancer or help even increase the cure rate in certain situations.  

So, I think there are a number of reasons to be hopeful and if you visit with your team of doctors and that you don’t get that sense of hope or you don’t hear about all the different ways that they can help you, you know that might be a time to really think about, “Perhaps I need to get a second opinion and hear about some of these developments or some these other ways that potentially I could be treated with my new diagnosis of lung cancer.”   

So, I think there are a lot of reasons to be hopeful. Lung cancer, of course, is still a serious life-changing diagnosis, but there are ways we can help regardless of what the stage is or where you’re at in life. I think there are opportunities for us to still help you. 

Katherine Banwell:

It sounds promising, Dr. Schenk. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Erin Schenk:

Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about lung cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient visit powerfulpatients.org.  

I’m Katherine Banwell, thanks for being with us today.   

PODCAST: Thriving With an MPN | Managing Symptoms and Treatment Side Effects

/in , , , , , /by

 

In this podcast, MPN specialist Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju, discusses strategies for managing symptoms and treatment side effects for people living with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Pemmaraju also shares advice for communicating with your healthcare team and provides an update on the latest MPN treatment and research.

Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju is Director of the Blastic Plasmacytoid Dendritic Cell Neoplasm (BPDCN) Program in the Department of Leukemia at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Pemmaraju.

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program is a continuation of our Thrive Series and we’re going to discuss coping with MPN symptoms and managing treatment side effects. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Naveen Pemmaraju. Dr. Pemmaraju, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, thank you, Katherine and team. Just an honor to be here. 

I’m Naveen Pemmaraju, a professor of leukemia at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. And I also serve as one of our executive directors for the MD Anderson Cancer Network, and I specialize in MPNs and rare leukemia. So, happy to join you once again, Katherine.   

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today, taking time out of your schedule. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, when it comes to living and thriving within an MPN, managing disease symptoms and treatment side effects is a big part of that. How can symptoms and side effects impact life with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Katherine, I’m glad you asked about that because I think before we get into the science and the pathobiology and all these complex things, it really starts with the patient. And as you and your team and others have really noted, the MPN for many of our patients, it is a chronic, often lifelong journey. And we really need to reemphasize in this modern era, the patient-centered experience and the caregiver experience.  

And so I would emphasize a few things. One is that our MPNs are oftentimes so-called invisible diseases to other people. So, this phrase that just really is tough for us to hear for our patients and our loved ones, oh, you don’t look that you’re sick. You don’t look like you have cancer. So, it emphasizes the internal part of the internal medicine, that’s one. Number two, it reminds you that you cannot tell on the external what kind of a war, a cytokine war that is going on inside of a patient. And so even though the blood counts are normal, the spleen is okay, the treatment paradigm is going okay, we don’t know what’s really going on. So, that’s why our great friend and colleague Ruben Mesa invented and pioneered the MPN symptom burden to really nail down what’s going on.  

And then third is our treatments, Katherine, our treatments, while overall halting or stopping or helping the MPN can then introduce a whole other round of toxicity, side effects, and so we need to manage that.  

So, both the disease itself and the treatments, two separate entities, and that’s what we need to be monitoring in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

All right, well, thank you for that. As we get into the discussion, Dr. Pemmaraju, it’s important to note that some of the issues we’ll be talking about today are symptoms of the MPN, and others may be treatment-related side effects. So, let’s start with side effects. What are the most common issues associated with the main MPN treatment classes? Let’s start with JAK inhibitors.   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s exactly the way I think about it too. So, with our JAK inhibitors, we now have 10 years since the approval of the ruxolitinib, the first in class. And now we have two more approved agents which are known as fedratinib (Inrebic) and pacritinib (Vonjo), and hopefully a fourth agent, momelotinib, which is under regulatory review at this time.  

So, we have a whole class of drugs. They have some similarities and then some differences, but in general, the JAK inhibitor class are well-tolerated drugs, but each of them has some side effects.   

I’d like to go through them just as a top-line overview. It’s very important. Number one for the ruxolitinib agent, the one that’s been around longest. This one is usually well-tolerated as we said, but you do have to look out for a few things. Non-melanoma skin cancers can be increased in some of our patients, so the importance of dermatology and skin evaluations. Some infections such as viral herpes, zoster, and shingles, so we need to be aware of that. And then weight gain, weight gain is something that we’re seeing more over time as we appreciate the drug, particularly as we move it into earlier lines of therapy, such as p.- vera.

As I look at the other agents, the fedratinib already carries an FDA black box warning for an encephalopathy syndrome, thought to be Wernicke’s encephalopathy, which can affect the brain. But really an encephalopathy syndrome, which means we have to check thiamine levels and replace them and be aware of that. That’s vitamin B1 and also GI side effects with that agent. And then finally, the pacritinib agent has a few toxicity and side effects.  

Again, all these are on the package label insert, well-known. Some GI side effects, particularly in the first few months, including diarrhea, and we need to watch out for bleeding and these kinds of effects, especially in the opening days and weeks of the agent. So, again, JAK inhibitors, well-tolerated class, oral medicines, but can have some notable side effects that we have to follow together in the clinic.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about interferon? What are some common side effects?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, great. So, the interferon class, which actually now is a class of drugs. We started out as let’s call it the regular Interferon, which was multiple times a week dosing. Then the Pegylated Interferon, which went down to once a week. And then now we have the ropeginterferon (Besremi), which is the recently approved agent in p. vera, which is every two weeks spaced out to every month.  

So, as you said, in this class of drugs, what’s old is new again. These drugs have actually been around longer than the JAK inhibitors, interestingly. You do have to be mindful. These are a very serious set of drugs. We usually set aside a good amount of time to talk about the side effects, and they are many historically.  

The main ones include psychiatric neurological side effects. So, it can cause a depressed mood, change in the mood, even depression. Hugely important, so everyone needs to be aware of that, including the caregivers. It can cause autoimmune side effects, so such as thyroid, liver, these type of side effects. And then finally, of course, any of these Interferons can cause a flu-like profile, you know, not feeling well, particularly in the beginning days.

So, we usually try to mitigate it with lots of education to the patient, the caregiver, remind all members of the team. If you can, maybe even start at a low dose and escalate up, which is what we’re trying to do in the clinic. And then really close monitoring for stuff that you can monitor, the thyroid, the liver, the mental side effects, as we said. Usually most of our patients over time, most of them do get used to the drug. So, there is some kind of an immune component to it, but you can have side effects at any time.  

I would say also, Katherine, that these later forms of the Interferon continue to improve. And so we’re seeing either less and less side effects or at least better managed, better tolerated, more understanding of these. So, a great class of drugs. And I should also say that our colleagues around the world are starting to combine the two classes of drugs for patients with myelofibrosis. And so we need to be paying attention to those combinatorial approaches. 

Katherine Banwell:

What about hydrea?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, right. Yeah, so hydroxyurea, we also have to mention that.  

One of the workhorse medicines of our field. We use it in all the MPNs.  

Again, an older class of drugs such as the Interferons that have been around prior to the JAK inhibitors. Used in a variety of diseases, both benign and malignant, used in sickle cell anemia. Historically has been used in both blood and solid tumor cancers, but we use it very commonly in MPNs. Almost all of our viewers are familiar. Hydroxyurea is not a benign drug. It is a chemotherapeutic agent. You know, you have to handle it with care.  

And so it’s got a few side effects. It can cause some fatigue in some patients. One of the more notable classical side effects is an ulcer formation, either in the mouth area or in the lower extremities, such is in the feet, so, you know, grossly visible. It can cause some fever and not feeling well in some patients. I will say again, a lot of these drugs are generally well tolerated. Most of our patients are 60, 70, 80, and older, but you can certainly have those side effects. A lot of these drugs, Katherine, can affect the skin.  

I did mention that earlier. So, ruxolitinib, even the interferons, hydrea, they can all cause skin lesions, maybe some of them associated with non-melanoma skin cancer, such as squamous cell and basal cell. So, one amazing part of the practice has been close association with our dermatology colleagues, not something I would have expected 10, 15 years ago. And that’s been a helpful part of the practice.   

So, I think it’s a point where I can emphasize that, in addition to having us as the MPN or blood cancer team, Katherine, the pandemic has reminded us the importance of primary care team as well. So, it’s really two teams, someone checking the cholesterol, cancer screenings, skin checkups, mammogram, PSAs. And then in coordination with your MPN team and then everyone working together, so colonoscopies, et cetera. So, just a plug there, especially the last three, four years where people have gotten behind to make sure that we’re keeping up with that part of the deal as well.  

Katherine Banwell:

With all the testing, yeah.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Exactly, right.  

Katherine Banwell:

You mentioned a couple of treatment side effects and how they’re managed, but in general, across the board, are treatment side effects managed in the same way, in similar ways?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Now, that’s a great question. So, here I’ve given you this nice list, kind of academic version of the list, but boy, no, right. And all my patients and everyone out there knows that there’s some varied practices. You know, the varied practices are not only, as you say, across the country and across the world, but also even in our own clinics, patient to patient. The MPNs have humbled and taught us that one person’s MPN can be starkly different from the next, so on and so forth.

So, I’m not just talking about the difference between PV, ET, myelofibrosis, and systemic mastocytosis. I’m talking about one person’s MF is completely different than the other. I think there are a couple of things I didn’t mention. So, pruritus, or itching is one of the great symptoms really. It’s not a side effect usually, but it’s a symptom of the MPN. There are some ways to treat that in the clinic.  

Fatigue really has no great way to treat it. Usually when you introduce one of the JAK inhibitors that can improve. On the side effects side, as we were mentioning, a lot of these are unsatisfying things. The flu-like symptoms of the interferon, the weight gain of the JAK inhibitor. So, I think what you’re saying is so correct, and let me admit it, I’m going to be the first to admit it, there’s not really a good standard playbook.  

But on the other hand, I think personalization. As we’ve always said, in our rare disease space, if you have a disease, it’s not rare to you. It’s what you have, it’s what your spouse is dealing with, your loved one, your mother with you. And so, I would advocate here that there’s a personalized playbook there. I would say that there are three guiding principles though. One is when you have side effects of a medicine, the first thing to do is let your healthcare provider team know. I know that sounds obvious, but here I am in the clinic and sometimes we don’t find out until later.

And so some of that is because the patient says to themselves, let’s tough it out. Or they may not know, or they may not be able to, or it may not be easy to communicate with our healthcare teams. Two is when you’re evaluating, every patient’s case is different. This is not specific advice, as you said, at the top of the hour here. But in a general sense, you really need to evaluate if the side effect is peculiar or particular to just that patient case, so idiosyncratic, unpredictable, notable. 

Or, is it a general expected sort of something that you thought could already happen and then go with it from there? And then finally, the concept of dose interruptions, dose reductions, treatment holidays, something very important. So, basically a lot of different ways you can go, but no standard or uniform playbook in our MPN field, as you and the team well knows.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that Dr. Pemmaraju. I’d like to move on to common MPN symptoms now. Let’s start with myelofibrosis. What are the symptoms associated with this particular MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Excellent question. So, for the myelofibrosis, generally thought to be our most advanced of the MPNs, can be low risk, intermediate to high risk. We’ll focus our comments here on intermediate to high risk, the more advanced MF. This is important because not only what I’m going to tell you is sort of a subjective list of symptoms, but because of the work of my great friend, Ruben Mesa, who pioneered the MPN symptom burden, we’ve actually been able to, as he and I say, quantify the unquantifiable.  

So, take subjective information and turn it into objective. For example, we know that among the three MPNs, PV, ET, and MF, that fatigue is by far the most common symptom that our patients report. It’s a fatigue that’s more than the general feeling tired at the end of the day. It’s sometimes a wiped-out fatigue. Some of our patients will have pruritus or itching. Many of our patients will have early satiety, which means getting full too early because either the spleen is too big, decreasing the appetite. Bone pain and neuropathy can happen in our MF patients. Brain fog and decreased concentration, huge issue among a lot of our patients.

And finally, because of the low blood counts, if a myelofibrosis patient is anemic, they can have those issues. So, fatigue, shortness of breath, even chest pain and palpitations. If the platelets are too low, or too high for that matter, bleeding or clotting.  

So, the problem with myelofibrosis, it ranges the gamut from the low-risk patients, who can be treated maybe even as a PV or ET observation or not as advanced treatment paradigm, all the way to intermediate high risk where patients are cachectic, losing weight, not feeling well, drenching night sweats. And all of these can be captured on not only the scoring systems but also the symptom burden scales. And to be honest with you, this is the majority of what our patients are feeling outside of the blood counts and outside of the objective information. So much so to the point, Katherine, where a patient can present with these symptoms solely, without ever having a blood count or a bone marrow or anything, and then it leads to the work of it.   

Katherine Banwell:

Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating. What about symptoms for polycythemia vera?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, so this is a great theme that you’ve got going here, which is know your body. If you know your body, then you’re able to tell what’s abnormal or normal. p. vera can be a bit more subtle.  

Oftentimes patients with p. vera can have a normal life expectancy and the longer term series in Europe show that it’s basically about the same life expectancy as the general population or slightly lower. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Patients with p.  vera can have an unbelievable symptom burden, either from the hyperviscosity of the hematocrit, the blood level being too high or the cytokine storm, that I mentioned, that makes people feel not well. So fatigue, brain fog, feelings of sluggishness, feeling too full, those are common in p. vera.  

The treatments are aimed at trying to make that better. So, phlebotomy to bring the hematocrit down below 45 can make you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, decrease the brain fog. If you’re using either the standard treatments of hydrea or Interferon, and then, of course, the baby aspirin to prevent clots, heart attacks, stroke. The newer agents in p. vera include the ropeginterferon that we mentioned earlier, clinical trials, such as the PTG-300 that I’m a part of, that try to really keep the blood levels normal all the time.  

And so hopefully help to improve the quality of life, decrease the chance of having a clot, and also hopefully try to make patients feel better from these aspects.  

Katherine Banwell:

What about essential thrombocythemia or ET? 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

ET, again, just like PV, you can have a lot of patients who are either incidentally diagnosed or not too much of a symptom burden. But again, here, the blood counts don’t tell the story. You can have “low risk ET” which is defined as less than 60 or no prior blood clots. So, you can be 43 years old, diagnosed with ET, your blood counts aren’t that high, but yet you’re still feeling overwhelming fatigue, itching. You’re seeing flashing things in your eyes called scotomas. You’re having small nerve or vascular issues called erythromelalgias. It’s a very elusive and difficult disease, particularly for our young patients. So, in ET, again, the same set of symptoms can happen. This fatigue, itching, the brain fog, concentration, bleeding, and or clotting.  

And so again, the goal of therapy is to mitigate those. If you’re young, a lot of patients are either observed or baby aspirin. If you’re older than 60 or have high risk features, then again, cytoreductive therapy. The other aspect I should mention is you can start out with one of these and it transforms into the other. That’s called clinical or phenotypic shifts. You can start out as an ET, go to PV. You can start out as PV and go to myelofibrosis. You can start out as myelofibrosis and go to acute myeloid leukemia. So, that’s why follow-up, even over years, decades, is important, preferably with an expert team, because you never know when one of these things wants to transform. And then your side effect, or I should say your symptom profile therefore changes with that transformation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, it’s obvious that there’s some symptom overlap along with this.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Right. 

Katherine Banwell:

And so I’m wondering what the strategies are for managing these. Let’s start with fatigue first.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Let’s do that.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do you manage that?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

This is one of the tougher parts of what we do. I’m glad you’re pinning me down to say it because really this is the majority of what we need to be talking about in the clinic. I’m going  to just be honest, you know, with all the scientific breakthroughs and everything, some of these are limited. The fatigue, this is some of the strategies I use and some of the experts in the field. I think one is managing the underlying disease. So, as you mentioned, if you have high-risk, intermediate to high-risk myelofibrosis, one of the great findings of our field is the JAK inhibitor class generally helps to improve symptom burden.  

So, that is the splenomegaly, the fatigue, the pruritus. Maybe not so much the itching, but some of these other things. So, I think treating the underlying disease, that’s okay. Number two is many clinics, Onc centers around the country are starting to open up a supportive care or fatigue center clinic. So, I am referring several of my patients there, we’re talking about diet, nutrition, exercise. We used to never talk about these things. Ruben Mesa has found that doing yoga and meditation can genuinely actually help the pathobiology to reduce the cytokine storm and improve the fatigue and quality of life. 

Dr. Angela Fleischman, our colleague at UC Irvine, has done work suggesting that possibly an antioxidant diet such as the Mediterranean diet can help the overall general fatigue, well-being, wellness. And then of course I mentioned earlier, but I’ll mention here too, sometimes fatigue is outside of the MPN. Have you had your TSH or thyroid checked? What about your vitamin D levels? How are you doing on these PCP general checks? Things that may be contributing to the life and the happiness.

And finally, let me make a plug for mental health. I don’t know how much we were emphasizing before the COVID pandemic, but after, the last three or four years have been tough. Healthcare providers, caregivers, patients themselves, mental health checkup, that can also be contributing to fatigue, not getting out of bed, in addition to the organic medical problems. So, let me advocate a multifactorial approach, scientifically summed up as treating what you can with the underlying MPN, fine, treating the side effects and symptoms of the MPN, as you said. 

And then, other, which can be a huge bucket, particularly as we get older, to not forget about that. Again, checking the thyroid level. And then when you’re on these different treatments, you can personalize it. Interferon, obviously, has its own separate set of side effects and then of course the other agents. So, I think that may be the best way to approach it. Maybe a three-bucket approach. The MPN itself, and then the treatment itself, and then the other, something like that.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, yeah. And as you’ve mentioned, it’s all going to be personalized and individualized, because what’s going to work for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Hear, hear, well said to that. You know, you think you make a great diagnosis in the clinic, someone’s having fatigue, they’re on therapy for your MPN. You check the TSH, it’s wildly abnormal. Okay, you refer them to endocrine. Six months later, the thyroid level is completely normal now on thyroid medicine. And yet, the fatigue, brain fog, everything is still not clear.  

The MPN is under good control. What gives? That’s the difficult part of these diseases. So, I really love what you said about the personalization and to keep looking and keep trying.   

Katherine Banwell:

What might an increase in symptoms mean? Does it mean that the disease is progressing or that maybe it’s time to change therapies?   

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Yeah, possibly. So, with all this objective evidence, there’s different buckets of disease progression. And some of them are objective and obvious, rising spleen, increasing blasts, or leukemia cells in the peripheral blood. The start of transfusion dependency for either anemia or platelets that weren’t there before. Sometimes, there are obvious things that you can point to, but there are a couple of scenarios where it’s not as obvious. You just named one. One is increasing symptom burden profile. You see, sometimes you have to think about, is it the sequela of the treatment itself or is it disease progression?  

I’ll give an example. If you start on an Interferon product and the dose is too high, you may be feeling not so great from the Interferon. But maybe in that case, a simple dose reduction was the answer because then you’re still getting the anti-disease activity, less side effects and all that. So, I’ll answer your question by saying possibly, but it can’t be the whole story. So, increasing symptoms is a harbinger, it’s a red flag. In the clinic, it means pause. Workup, is this a subject of the treatment itself? Is it because the disease is progressing? Do we need to do a restaging and workup, whether that means a bone marrow biopsy, whatever that means?

Or again, let’s put that other in there. What about the other comorbidities? Do you have class one heart failure, that’s now class three and you’re retaining fluid? And that’s why you’re short of breath and you actually need an echo and a cardiologist and an evaluation of your diuresis. So, I think that’s important, but the key is don’t blow it off, right? So, increasing symptom in MPN is telling you something isn’t right, and we need to check it out.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right, and for the patient, tell your healthcare team about it.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Communicate always. I think what we see is people are so proper and so compassionate and so kind and collegial, and that’s beautiful. But actually in the MPNs and all these rare blood cancers where so little is known and so little is obvious, communication is the key.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. I’d like to make some time now to answer questions from the audience.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great. 

Katherine Banwell:

And here are a few we received prior to the program. Stephanie writes, I have ET and I’m not being treated. Do you have advice for the watch and wait period? I’m anxious about the disease changing and don’t know what I’m waiting for. So, before you answer the question, Dr. Pemmaraju, would you define this term, watch and wait?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

I will. And to Stephanie and everyone out there, this is a great question. I will say half the folks I talk to actually call it watch and worry, okay. Some people call it watch and wait, and as Stephanie’s saying, some people call it watch and worry.   

Yeah, the concept is threefold. One is that there are many cancers, many cancers, including blood cancers, that can be caught so early on that they don’t require treatment. A lot of patients with CLL, chronic lymphocytic leukemia, ET, as Stephanie mentioned, in the solid tumor. It’s very common to be diagnosed with a prostate cancer that’s low grade, early stage that can be observed. Number two is in ET, there is a science behind it.   

What we found in our studies, and they can be updated over time and you’ll see those, the traditional is that if you’re below the age of 60 and/or you’ve had no blood clot, thrombotic event, that’s considered low risk. And the treatment can be observation, perhaps adding in a baby aspirin to prevent against blood clots if there’s no contraindication. Now what’s magic about that age 60, obviously as you know, it’s not magic. It’s more of a statistical, continuous variable algorithm that says around that time, the risk of blood clots goes up. And so then you’d consider cytoreductive therapy at that point. Now there’s exceptions to that.

Many of our young patients are on therapy, but there’s usually some reason for that. Some high-risk feature, wildly uncontrolled blood counts, for example, symptom burden, some other high-risk features. So, it’s a suggestion. It’s a guideline, not an absolute. And then the third part of it is, the what do you do in that time? And that’s the frustrating thing. And I think that’s what Stephanie’s getting to.  

Again, that’s why I said the watch and worry versus watch and wait. Some of it is, how are you feeling outside of this? Some patients take it as a great news. Hey, you have this blood cancer, that’s not good news. But the good news is it’s probably not going to be active for a long time, we can, “just watch it.” But some people, as Stephanie is saying, take it the opposite way. What do you mean I got a blood cancer? I got something lurking in my body. You’re telling me it’s there, you know it’s there. And so what’s up with that? And the concept there is that some of these situations like low-risk ET, we found that if you treat too early, too aggressively, you can actually do harm.  

Katherine Banwell:

Oh. 

Dr. Pemmaraju:

So, that’s the key. These chemo drugs are not benign as you had me discuss earlier. They have toxicity, side effects, short-term, long-term. So, it’s a risk-benefit thing. If the risk far outweighs the benefit, as in the younger patient with no symptoms, no high-risk features, observation is okay. But at some point, when it turns, that’s the threshold.  

So, really the key is, if we believe these are stem cell blood cancer disorders, we need to be thinking about and designing therapies with minimal to no toxicity. Something that actually modifies the disease early on and something that leads to long-term outcomes. And we don’t have that yet in ET. We’re working on that in PV and myelofibrosis. So, stay tuned for that. And then finally, let me also add, this is an important point, not everybody gets it. This watch and wait versus watch and worry. So, I’m glad Stephanie brought that up because it’s not always good news, uniformly, when you tell someone, good news is you don’t have to do anything bad news, there’s something there.  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. Jess wrote in with this question. I’ve been experiencing bone pain and neuropathy. Is there anything that can eliminate or reduce these symptoms?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Great question, and it ties into our earlier question about the MPN symptom burden. On the original MPN-10 scale that Ruben and others pioneered, you will see both of those. You will see the bone pain, neuropathy.  

Now there’s been, you know, different narrowing down of these questionnaires and things, but in general, our patients do have these and that’s across the board. So, not only myelofibrosis but also our patients with PV and ET. These are among the most frustrating, I would say. Again, as you would expect, if you are advanced enough and you’re getting treatment, you hope that the treatment itself, whether it’s the Interferon or the JAK inhibitors or whatever you’re doing, clinical trial, hopes to alleviate those. But it doesn’t all the time.

Then the second issue is, these are likely the result of a cytokine storm or increased cytokines, these protein messengers that are abnormally high in our patients with MPNs. There’s varying unsatisfying things that people do. Sometimes we give antihistamines for people with bone pain. So that’s these over-the-counter sinus allergy medicines. Interestingly, the Claritins and the Zyrtecs, these type of medications, that can sometimes help in MPN bone pain. And then also for the neuropathy, these common neuropathy drugs that everybody knows, the gabapentins and all of these drugs are used frequently.  

There’s no doubt in my clinic and everybody else’s, but the varying levels of success. So, I think it speaks to the fact that these two are kind of from the MPN itself. And treating the underlying MPN is still usually your best strategy, using these, borrowing these medications, from the other aspects.

And then finally, my other plug here, which has kind of been a theme here, hopefully it resonates, and it doesn’t sound generic or unnecessary, is these things can sometimes be something else. Okay, bone pain and neuropathy can be something else. So, we do have cases of people having frequent falls, really serious stuff. In those cases, I refer those patients to a neurologist. Nerve conduction studies right, very advanced studies in the couple of cases that are so severe that it’s beyond thinking that it’s just due to the MPN.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Pemmaraju, as a researcher, what are new and emerging therapies on the horizon in MPN care?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, Katherine, I’m glad you asked because I’m proud to tell you here, at the end of 2023, that we’ve now entered a new golden era of therapies for MPNs. Your group, and others, have led the way in advocating, but for so many years, honestly, we didn’t have many breakthroughs or new medicines. And now we literally have something we’re hearing about once a month. I think this golden era is divided into four buckets, Katherine, and that’s why I’m so excited for our patients and their caregivers.

Number one is novel JAK inhibitors. So, beyond the approved ruxolitinib, fedratinib, and now pacritinib, we have a fourth one that’s under consideration, that’s called momelotinib. Hopefully, we’ll have that approved by the end of the year. And there are actually other drugs around the world. So, not just in the U.S. and North America that are being developed as a further JAK inhibitor. So, just like we’ve seen in CML with the TKIs for BCR-ABL after the imatinib Gleevec medicine, hopefully, we have seven to 10 choices for our patients.  

Number two is the combinatorial approach of a JAK inhibitor plus something else. And that’s a field that I’m personally very involved in and helping to lead. The concept there is you take the known workhorse drug, the JAK inhibitor, use it as the backbone, and then add in the second agent. We started to do those studies in patients who were already starting to lose a response and we added in the second agent, those were called suboptimal studies.

And then now we’re moving those drugs into the frontline setting in international global randomized studies. So, stay tuned, let’s see how those go. But the concept is, can you take a new agent, whether it’s a BET inhibitor, a bromodomain inhibitor, a Bcl-xL inhibitor, PI3 Kinase, et cetera, and combine it with the JAK inhibitor? The third bucket that’s even more exciting to many people is that of novel agents standing alone by themselves. Now you’ve had either a JAK inhibitor or some other therapy for your myelofibrosis. That didn’t work for whatever reason. Now you’re looking for a completely new strategy.  

An explosion of research, not just in the lab, which we’ve had for the last 10 years, but over the last three or four years, amazingly, even despite the COVID pandemic. I would say dozens, really dozens of trials that are what you would consider beyond or non-JAK inhibitor therapy. Some of them include telomerase inhibition, with the imetelstat agent, for example. And so the concept here is, can you now hit the myelofibrosis in a completely different pathway?

And the answer clearly is yes. And those results have been tested now in the lower stages, the earlier stages, phase one and two. And you’re starting to see those drugs enter into the phase two and phase three. We eagerly await those results if there can be a viable beyond JAK inhibitor. And then finally, if that wasn’t exciting enough, there’s a fourth bucket, which is thinking about specifically the anemia myelofibrosis. We’ve never really historically done that. We’ve had older drugs, danazol, steroids, growth factor shots, blood transfusions.  

But now here you see both pharmaceutical interest, as well as academic interest, in developing agents that either specifically target the anemia of MF or both, the MF and the anemia. And that could be a game changer for our patients in the next five years. So, Katherine, a wealth of exploding research that I’m personally very excited about that gives me and our field hope, momentum, and enthusiasm going into 2024.   

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Well, Dr. Pemmaraju, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to end with a question that we usually start within our Thrive Series. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with an MPN?  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, I really love that phrase so much because it’s meaningful to me.  

You know, you’re talking about something that resonates with me and my patients, which is not just living with the MPN, but you’re talking about thriving with an MPN. That’s so resonant to us. I think really, I would go for three parts to that.  

One is that it’s an acknowledgment or a complete understanding of the disease. So, not denial, the opposite of denial, whatever that is, Katherine. So, understanding as much as you can about the disease which is, I encourage people to Google, look up on the internet. I just, what I want you to do is couple that with talking about it in context with your provider. I think the worry that people have is you’re at your home midnight, you’re Googling stuff, it may or may not be right.

So, anyway, so just do that, but then bring the information to the next visit. So, fully understanding and learning as much as you can in your own way. Number two is to be able to have a quality of life that is not just living with the disease, but actually being successful at your relationships, your work, whatever it is that brings you meaning and joy in life. And that sometimes has to do with the MPN paradigm, sometimes has to do with the other stuff we said.  

But I think, doing that, not despite the fact that you have the MPN, but acknowledging it with that, right? And then I think the third aspect is, if you have some way or some platform to be able to express yourself with the MPN because it’s such a rare disease, we think maybe only four out of 100,000 people worldwide get these. A lot of patients, not for everybody, by the way, but a lot of patients are thriving on support groups. 

It used to be you have to be in person, that’s very difficult to do with rare diseases. But now online, social media, a lot of different ways to get involved. Whether someone’s an introvert or an extrovert, whether someone wants to be private or public, all those things are hugely important, so it’s a personal decision. But for many, they want to get out there, and it’s not necessarily this scientific information exchange, although that’s good. But the support and encouragement and comradery of talking to other patients about what we’re talking about.  

It is, in fact, a little bit more facile to do it with the more common diseases, breast cancer, all of these things. And it’s much more difficult, social media online has opened that up. So, to me, I think that’s a kind of mix that I’ve been seeing in my patients. And that leads to empowerment. It leads to taking control of the things that can be controlled, leaving the things that can’t be controlled to what needs to happen. And then an understanding and anticipation of things that may happen in the next few visits, in the next few years. I think that’s how people can thrive with these MPNs. 

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. And that’s a hopeful message to leave our audience with Dr. Pemmaraju. Thank you so much for joining us today.  

Dr. Pemmaraju:

Well, thank you, Katherine, and hats off to you and the team for not only keeping the advocacy and information going but during this pandemic time, becoming an essential source of information for our patients and getting the word out there. So, thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah, thank you. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.  

PODCAST: Thriving With AML | Tips and Support for Navigating Treatment

/in , , , , , , , /by

 

How can you navigate care and thrive with acute myeloid leukemia (AML)? In this webinar, Dr. Jacqueline Garcia, an AML specialist and researcher, discusses the treatment and management of AML. Dr. Garcia will review factors that impact therapy choices and shares advice and resources for people living with AML.
 
Dr. Jacqueline Garcia is an oncologist and AML researcher at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. Learn more about Dr. Garcia.

Download Resource Guide

See More from Thrive AML

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello, and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for this webinar. Today’s program is about how to live and thrive with AML. We’re going to discuss how to live well with AML and why you should play an active role in your care. Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Jacqueline Garcia. Dr. Garcia, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Yes. Hi. My name is Jacqueline Garcia. I’m an oncologist at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. I’m a clinical translational investigator. And what this means is I take care of patients with acute and chronic leukemias. I focus mainly on patients with acute myeloid leukemia. The investigator part means, in addition to seeing patients, I spend a lot of time writing, developing, and executing clinical trials in the AML space. We know that there have been so many wonderful therapies that we helped to move froward and bring to the field and so there is more work to be done. So, having active investigations is a key part of this role.  

Katherine Banwell:

Excellent. Well, thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to join us today. We really appreciate it. We start all of our webinars in our Thrive Series with the same question. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with AML?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

I think that’s a really great question and I’m glad you’re asking me now as opposed to a decade ago. In the last several years, we’ve had a tremendous number of drugs that got FDA-approved and a lot of exciting clinical trials that have not only shown efficacy and safety but really some long-term responses. So, we can now focus on not just finding what drug can work, which used to be our problem 10 years ago, since we had very limited therapeutic tools, meaning treatments. We now have several treatments available.  

So, when I think of what it means to thrive, it’s identifying the right treatment for each individual patient with acute myeloid leukemia, because what might be recommended for one patient may not be the right for another. And there are many different patient- and disease-related factors that go into that decision-making.  

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you for that, Dr. Garcia. It helps guide us as we move into our conversation. Typically, there are a number of team members to care for a patient. Who is part of an AML healthcare team?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Absolutely. We definitely cannot work on our own. Our team is very large, and it’s because these patients require a lot of support. At a bare minimum, a healthcare team will include at least one physician or an oncologist. The AML healthcare team might also include a second oncologist – that could be a bone marrow transplant doctor.  

Other members that are very critical include having a mid-leveler available that’s a physician assistant or a nurse practitioner. Often, an oncologist who runs a busy practice, who takes care of patients that could be very sick, like AML, they work in partnership with often very talented physician assistants and nurse practitioners. I know I do.  

In addition to that, I’m at an academic center so I’m super fortunate. I have really amazing and very smart hematology oncology fellows and residents that also follow to learn how to take care of patients. But we also, in the background, that patients don’t see – we have a pharmacist that helps us with making sure that drugs are prescribed correctly. They often call the patients with oral therapies to follow up. We have financial resource teams to help patients, to link them to LLS for support for bills that might come up, or transportation, or linking them up to other services that could help to defray or reduce costs.  

So, the healthcare team is quite extensive. But in terms of those that are patient-facing, it’s primarily the MDM that are mid-leveler. Some teams operate also with a nurse or a nurse care coordinator. That’s pretty common, too. And that person helps to not only schedule but also to answer pages or phone calls from patients if the medical team is not doing that.  

Katherine Banwell: What about a social worker or psychologist?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Oh. Yes. Yes. So, absolutely. So, every patient can be offered, if needed, access to an inpatient or outpatient social worker. Often, if my patients are admitted we have them see a social worker because that’s fairly seamless. Otherwise, for outpatient, if we identify any particular needs or there’s an interest, we’ll link them up with a social worker. This is the same that goes for physical therapy, or nutritionists, or those other ancillary services that can be really critical when patients are getting started.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Of course, getting appropriate care and treatment is essential to thriving. Can you walk us through the classes of treatment that are considered when choosing an AML treatment approach?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Yeah. In terms of the different classes of treatments, I would say we think of probably three broad categories. One would be – sorry, four broad categories. One would be intensive chemotherapy. And that involves generally hospitalization. Another would be less intensive therapy. That could involve a mixture of inpatient or outpatient therapy. That could also include targeted therapy. The third would be clinical trials, which can include any of the former options I recommended, but they would be in an experimental study. And the fourth would be focusing solely on supportive care or hospice for patients that are too sick to receive therapy.  

Other aspects that are specific, such as pills, versus IV, versus role of transplant, I don’t see it as being separate. You don’t go right to transplant when you have a diagnosis of AML. You have to be in remission. So, transplant, for instance, would come after an intensive therapy or after the less intensive chemotherapy. So, I see that as being the second step once I choose the right treatment option for the patient.  

Katherine Banwell:

And when you’re talking about transplant, you’re talking about stem cell transplant, right?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Yes. Stem cell transplant, bone marrow transplant – they mean the same thing. We recruit stem cells from donors that are related or unrelated, and we mobilize them from bone marrow to blood. And so, we can collect stem cells either from blood or bone marrow at this point. So, that’s exactly right.  

Katherine Banwell:

And what about targeted therapy?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

We have targeted therapy available that’s IV or pill form. And so, any one of these options can be considered. But everything is very patient-specific, and I am very happy to tell you some of the categories and nuances of things that I look at, because I don’t usually just offer patients a menu.  

I tell them what’s appropriate based on their patient characteristics, meaning what their liver function is, their heart function, their history, medical history, what their labs show. And then, I look at their disease history. We are now in an era where we have options. So, I look to see are there mutations that are targetable. Are there not? Are there markers on the surface of their leukemia cells that suggest that there’s a target for an immunotherapy?  

So, we don’t offer classes per se without it being specific. So, I always look to see what are the patient disease-specific characteristics, and then I start the conversation about what the potential options could be and then what I think the best option would be for that particular case.  

Katherine Banwell:

As a researcher, Dr. Garcia, you’re on the frontlines of AML treatment. Are there new and emerging therapies that patients should be aware of?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Yeah. I think we’re at this really exciting point now where we had for a long time just been giving people standard two agent intensive chemotherapy. We have been studying in Phase II and Phase III settings, and even in Phase I – which means testing safety out for the first time. We’ve been moving a lot of treatments to more mature settings where we’re testing the addition of a third drug. So, for people that are getting intensive chemo, we’re looking at, “Can we add a pill to augment responses deep in them to reduce risk of disease returning?”  

For less intensive chemotherapies, one of the most common regimens we now use is something called azacitidine (Vidaza), which is a hypomethylating agent that is given by IV or subcutaneous administration. Plus, a pill called venetoclax (Venclexta).   

We helped to get that FDA-approved a couple of years ago. That combination of therapy, we call that a doublet, meaning it’s two drugs – because it’s so well-tolerated and active, we’re now asking the greedy question of, “Well, can we make it more active for patients since we’re seeing how well-tolerated it is?”  

So, there have been a lot of therapies that are currently under investigation that are adding a third drug to these less-intensive doublets. So, there’s a lot of therapies under investigation to test, “Can we add an immunotherapy target? Is there another pill that we can add? Is there another targeting mutation to add to the doublet?” So, we’re looking at AML therapies from different angles. We’re looking at adding something to the existing new standard of care – those are these new, so-called, triplets.  

We’re looking at still the role of cellular therapy or CAR Ts targeting leukemia cells from an immunotherapy standpoint.  

That remains underdeveloped overall, and we have not succeeded as well, like our lymphoid colleagues in the lymphoma and acute lymphoblastic leukemia realm where there are drugs that are active and FDA-approved.  

So, we’re still trying to identify the right target. But those are some of the areas that are currently under study.  

Katherine Banwell:

You touched on this earlier, Dr. Garcia, but I’d like to get into a bit more detail. With all the treatment options available, how do you decide who gets what? Tell us what is considered when choosing treatment for a patient.   

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

When I – this is a complicated question, because it’s not like you follow any particular algorithm. But when I meet a patient, I make a decision on what’s important to the patient and what’s  their goal. If I know – I need to understand their overall health to get a sense of are there ongoing competing risk factors that are active and more likely to impede with response, ability to deliver chemo, ability to get to transplant, something that tells me that’s not a possibility, or is their age too advanced – meaning greater than 75 – where we know that some of the treatments are not safe to deliver in that setting?  

So, I take a look at a patient’s overall health and age to make a decision. I take a look at bone marrow biopsy and lab findings to understand the flavor of their leukemia, from chromosomes to mutations. And because I am familiar with the data to give me a sense of what’s safe, what’s tolerable, and importantly what types of diseases, or subtypes of AML, would respond to one therapy over another, that’s how I formulate a recommendation.   

And based on all of that, all together, I’ll talk to them about treating the AML in steps. The first step is getting them into a remission, which can be done regardless of therapy type. That means to get their bone marrow under control, blood counts to recover. The second step, which is a more involved conversation that I often give a little bit of a hint of, but I go into greater detail over time, because we will see each other quite a lot, whether in the hospital or in clinic, is how to keep them in remission.   

And that’s where details about things like transplant come into play. I do my best to not overwhelm them, because when a patient hears the word transplant – and that’s often what they hear from family and friends because that’s what you can Google – they don’t know that there are many things, or many weeks of therapy, that have to happen in advance of transplant even being considered or happening. And transplant can’t even happen until someone’s in remission.  

But that is always on the forefront of a leukemia doctor’s mind, “Can I bring this patient to a transplantation? How successful will I be and what else do I need to give them to get them there sooner, safer, with a deeper response?” So, that way transplant could be successful. Transplant, by the way, is when we give a patient someone else’s stem cells that match their HLA typing, or their white blood cell signature.  

And it helps us to use someone else’s immune system to completely irradicate any microscopic leftover leukemia in a patient. But that is only successful when patients have good disease control or remissions. And that is only also successful if we have a donor for the patient, both of which  require at least several weeks to a couple of months of therapy. But that process is always initiated and ongoing in the background. And so, we often do this in piecemeal, because getting a diagnosis is already overwhelming. Learning about treatment is overwhelming.  

Learning about the frequency of labs, transfusions, being hospitalized, and then details about what a transplant would entail can be also overwhelming. But a lot of family and friends like to ask, because they feel like that is one way they might be able to help a patient. So, I know that they often eagerly ask the patient, “Well, what about this? How can I help?”  

Katherine Banwell:

Right. I can imagine that patient preference is also considered. But what kind of questions should patients ask about their treatment regimen?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

I always tell patients that I care very much about things like travel, hotels, all that jazz. But I always tell them let’s first talk about their health, what treatment I would recommend based on the available options and what their disease would mostly respond to, because I want it to be successful. And I always tell them let’s reserve questions on how it’s going to be done for last. I call that the logistics. I will never bring up or recommend something that could never be possible. But that being said, I try not to let the commute determine the decision.  

Whether or not there needs to be a hospitalization versus a hotel stay. I always consider then the background, but that financial decision should not drive the best treatment choice for a patient. Very fortunately, we’re in a country where patients have the ability – often, not always – to seek second opinions or to travel to academic centers.  

And because AML is an emergent or life-threatening disease, many insurance providers allow patients to come up to a big center to be treated, which I think is more than appropriate. So, we get into details of logistics last, because that’s the one thing that we can often overcome by providing additional resources and support. In terms of patient preference, if that’s what you mean with that, I would say I leave logistics to last, but we always consider and we do our best to accommodate.  

And that might be where we inform them we will look into getting a local partner to help us with additional therapies after the first month or upon discharge. So, it totally depends on the scenario for a patient, whether or not they have a local provider and a local hospital that could accommodate acute leukemia. I always tell patients ideally you don’t want to go to a place that only sees this once per year. You want to go to a place where everyone has seen it multiple times, including the nurses on the floors.  

So, that way, when there’s a complication, everyone knows what to do. We don’t want any “surprises” when it’s really just run-of-the-mill standard stuff for us every day. In terms of what patients desire, we always keep that in the conversation of their level of support. Can they swallow pills? Are they able to cope with being in and out of the hospital? All that stuff gets considered, but I think if they hear about the plan, about what’s required, when my expectation would be for a response, when the frequency of trips to a big city would decrease, how I could get a local partner to help with some of the lab or transfusion burden.  

Many of those preferences that they thought they had diminished, because they recognize that we found a way to make it work.  

Katherine Banwell:

Okay. Well, that’s really good to know. You touched on oral therapies a bit ago, and I know that they’re available for certain patients. Do you have any advice for patients who are in charge now of administering their own therapy?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Yeah, I think that taking pills in general is hard for anybody, whether they’re naïve to pills. I definitely have patients that have never been on anything, and suddenly they’re on many medicines, to other people that are managing multiple medical conditions and this is yet another burden to add. I would say having an oral regimen is wonderful. It offers a lot of convenience. But we are all very thoughtful, and we all need to be proactive about looking for drug-drug interactions, because often there could be increases in the chemotherapy presence when another drug is on board.  

Sometimes, antibiotics are added on but they don’t realize it can add to side effects to chemotherapy. So, I would say number one is always make sure your oncology team is aware of the medications you are on or get recommended to add on in the midst of therapy, so we can make sure there are appropriate dosage estimates or if a particular drug should be avoided, then we can do that.  

I would say, too, having oral therapies is great, but there’s also financial toxicity that comes with it. Sometimes copays can get hefty. So, just because it’s oral, it’s not always convenient financially. Also, when things are oral it can add to more GI or mal gut toxicity. So, we’re always keeping in mind how many oral therapies, what drugs they are, so we don’t increase nausea and diarrhea, which can happen frequently when you’re requiring the GI tract to absorb the therapies that are necessary to eliminate the disease.  

So, all these things are under consideration. But to help people that are on oral therapies, it’s helpful to let your providers know if you’re noticing a pattern of nausea, so we can premedicate, have you take a nausea medicine before you take the chemo. You could also put a timer on your phone if you’re not used to taking medicines to serve as a reminder. You could create little calendars or check off on a paper calendar when you’ve taken a drug if you need help with reminding.  

So, there are little tricks like that. I always consider using a pillbox if you don’t have other pills to mix in and if you’re the only one touching it. I don’t want anybody to be exposed to therapies that they shouldn’t be otherwise.  

Katherine Banwell:

That’s good advice. Thank you. If a patient is feeling uncomfortable with the direction of their treatment plan or their care, should they consider a second opinion or even consulting a specialist?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Oh, 100 percent. I would say – I think that I’m spoiled. I’m a leukemia specialist, so they’re already seeing a specialist when a patient sees me. I don’t take care of any other cancers. But, I would say, for anyone seeing any oncologist in general, I would – number one, it doesn’t do the medical team any favors if you withhold any feelings of how the treatment’s going. Meaning, if you feel uncomfortable or that you’re having symptoms or people are taking too long to get back to you based on your experience.   

I would just make sure you do your best to at least let them know so that they have the ability to adjust or accommodate whatever need you might have that might be different than what they’re used to, because every patient’s different. Some people have a really great support system. Or they have a little bit of experience of being a patient. Different coping mechanisms. Everyone’s different. There’s no right or wrong. But I would just make sure that it’s clear with your existing team because they’re actively seeing you. Give them a chance to make the experience better.  

I would for sure seek a second opinion. Don’t delay – I will just put this disclaimer. I would not delay treatment for an AML if your current doctor is giving you a good plan and you feel confident that they have looked into whether or not you need to go to a bigger leukemia center and all that other stuff. But if you feel like they are giving you a good plan, don’t delay your therapy in the beginning, because you might get sick.  

If, however, there is demonstration of safety and time to see someone within a short timeframe for a second opinion at the time of diagnosis before treatment started, then that’s okay. But wouldn’t wait a few months to go looking around, because that could put your health at risk. Once you’re on treatment, seeking a second opinion, if you’re dissatisfied with your ongoing team, it’s fine. I always want patients to feel comfortable with their treatment plan.  

But I would recognize that you want to make it clear to your current team that they’re still helping you and responsible for your treatment. Because if you, for instance, started seeing multiple doctors and they won’t know who should be helping to follow up on certain things, who’s going to be scheduling the next round of therapy. And that ends up putting more ownership unnecessarily onto the patient where they might not have needed to have all that extra responsibility. So, I would just say just make sure that’s clear. Yeah.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Garcia, you mentioned earlier the fact that some therapies can cause a lot of side effects, like nausea. And certainly, speaking up and telling your healthcare team how you’re feeling and what some of the symptoms and side effects are, that’s really essential. What is the impetus for someone to consider changing treatment if something is just absolutely not agreeing with them?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

So, there are many reasons to change a treatment. One is a patient doesn’t tolerate it. It depends on what the issue is. Is it something that’s serious, like a liver or enzyme abnormality that is very abnormal, or a new cardiac problem where it would warrant a change or a dose reduction? That makes sense. There is definitely – often, there’s a lot of guidance in the package inserts or within a clinical trial and how to manage that. But if patient has some intolerabilities that could be overcome with standard supportive care methods, I would make sure we’ve done that.  

So, I would make sure you give you medical team the chance to fix any nausea. We have so many great antinausea drugs. I would want to make sure – or if constipation or diarrhea. It’s often a GI issue that patients get really bothered by.  

I would try to delineate whether or not the side effect was really from the chemo or is from the leukemia that is not yet under control. Or is it another medical condition or a drug-drug interaction that was missed. So, I would do my best to make sure there wasn’t something that was fixable or something else that should be addressed. We otherwise would recommend changing therapy for an extreme intolerability if there was another equivalent better option. And if someone’s disease does not respond to treatment, then we would consider another therapy, too.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Garcia, I want to make sure that we get to some of the audience questions that were sent to us prior to this program. Let’s start with this one.  

 Jerry had this question. “How long can patients stay on azacitidine and venetoclax before relapse or toxicities force them to abandon treatment?”  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

So, this is a good question. I would say azacitidine and venetoclax just got FDA-approved just shy of five years now, and it’s totally changed our treatment paradigm in many great ways. It was initially approved for patients that could not get intensive chemotherapies or were above 75. We call these our older patients, our more vulnerable.  

And we demonstrated and compared to azacitidine alone. It was given with placebo. We saw that the combination of azacitidine and venetoclax not only was safe, well-tolerated, it led to two-and-a-half times higher complete remission rates and impressively longer survival. That’s all we care about, patients are living longer. So, one of the things that we are appreciating in 2023 now, now that we have more patients on azacitidine and venetoclax, is that we have many patients that are long-term responders.  

So, in the original clinical trial we’ve been reported – and we just submitted the update for the long-term follow-up that we presented at the American Society of Hematology meeting in 2022, in December.  

We presented the long-term follow-up data that shows that responses can be durable and even as long as two years or three years in some patients. The average amount of time the patients are on therapy is somewhere between one-and-a-half to two years. But not every patient performs like an average patient.  

We have some that respond for less time. We have some that respond for a longer time. So, I definitely have a few patients that have been on combination therapy, and we’ve gone to year three, then four, and two that got to year five. And that was using the original indication of older the 75, no intensive chemotherapy. Most of those patients in the original trial and led to the approval were not transplant candidates. But once those drugs got approved, more patients that were older started getting this therapy.  

And so, the durability of this treatment might be longer for people that don’t have competing health problems and for specific mutation subtypes. There are a couple of mutation subtypes that include IDH2 and NPM1, where we’ve seen some extreme long-term responders.   

And then, there are others that are much shorter. So, I would say it’s very individual. In terms of toxicities in general, the regimens very well-tolerated. And if it’s not, often it’s because there should be supportive care, prophylaxis, and adjustments to the dosing strategy, which has been well-published. Sometimes, if you have a treating oncologist that is less familiar, they won’t know the nuances of how to adjust the doses, so I would ask your local oncologist to reach out to anybody that was part of the original trials. Often, a lot of us are very responsive to helping out our colleagues to help patients to stay on treatment.  

But at the end of the day, if a patient loses response or has a bad toxicity that makes it very difficult, we have to move on to another therapy.  

Katherine Banwell:

Of course. Carrie sent in this question. “What percent of patients relapse and what percent of patients relapse more than once?”  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Okay. So, this is a question that I can certainly answer, but I would say it depends on the context. So, if I was taking – any time a patient asks me that, I always ask them what they want to know and what they don’t want to hear, because sometimes hearing numbers can be really daunting to patients overall.  

So, a very large number of patients with leukemia can go on to relapse, which is why, if you’re on a treatment like azacitidine and venetoclax, we continue it every month as long as we can with dose reductions to help with tolerability.  

And that’s why, if you got that regimen or intensive chemo or another clinical trial and you get into remission, we ask the question of can we transplant this patient to do our best to cure them long-term to avoid and reduce the chance of a relapse. So, even with transplant, which remains our gold standard for long-term curability – it’s the only treatment we have that has a guaranteed track record of cure – not every patient that goes to transplant will remain in remission.  

If I were to be asked, “Well, how many relapse,” I would say it depends. I would say if I took the average patient, maybe 40 to 50 percent will relapse. But if you ask me for certain mutation types it could be 90 percent are cured or only 20 percent are cured. So, it’s very individual. It depends on age. It depends on mutations. It depends on the level of response they had before they go to transplant.  

So, I would say even though the word relapse is very scary or disease coming back is definitely a scary thing, there are a lot of people, including me, that are working on ways to reduce risk of relapse, improve how we transplant, improve the treatments around and after transplant, and improving frontline and relapse therapies.  

I think you had a second question of what happens if you relapse once and then what about if relapse happens again? I would say that getting into remission the first time is always the easiest. The way I always think about it is, you kill off all the bad cells that are the easiest to die the first time around with chemotherapy. Anything that’s left behind are often the resistant types. And so, getting into a second remission or responding the second time around with treatment is doable, but it’s much harder.  

So, I would say the majority of patients that relapse the first time will relapse the second time, unless we can successfully bridge them to a transplantation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Yeah. Dr. Garcia, as we close out this conversation, I wanted to get your thoughts on where we stand with progress in helping people live longer and thrive with AML. What would you like to leave the audience with?  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

I think that this is – I feel very lucky with when I entered the field, that in this last decade, as I’ve developed – my time at Dana-Farber, for instance – I’ve seen that there have been so many drugs that we helped to get approved that are now in the hands of local oncologists and other academic oncologists, suggesting that the clinical trials are a gateway to improving treatments and offering new options.  

 We’ve gotten better at understanding what mutations and chromosomes means and personalizing medicines, and that has allowed us to develop smarter and better clinical trials, which we hope we will get to keep approving and making more available to patients. So, I think that this is a really good time for AML, meaning we have more than one option, that is for sure. We can now think about what the patient wants, what the patient, and what their patient disease has in order to make a decision. We weren’t able to do that before.  

So, we can really involve patients so they understand why we would recommend one option versus another. And we are still not done with investigation, even though many drugs got approved in the last five years. There’s a lot more progress to be made, especially in areas that we touched upon, from approving getting patients to transplant, reducing relapse risk, keeping people in remission. Those are all things that I’m personally working on in the clinical trial space and things a lot of my colleagues in the world are working on, too.  

It’s very important to all of us. So, I would say be hopeful that we are not done. There’s a lot of great options out there. We really can personalize. There are a lot of options out there, but everyone will get offered their best therapy and the first-line therapy is the most important. And I am very hopeful that we will keep getting better at prolonging remissions and durability of those responses.   

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Garcia, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. It’s been a pleasure.  

Dr. Jacqueline Garcia:

Thank you.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. To learn more about AML and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.   

PODCAST: Advanced Non-Melanoma Skin Cancer: What Do You Need to Know About Evolving Treatment and Research?

/in , , , , , /by

 

Treatment options for advanced non-melanoma skin cancers—such as squamous and basal cell carcinoma—are evolving quickly. Dr. Diwakar Davar shares an update on emerging research, discusses current treatment options, and provides tips for partnering with your team on care decisions.

Dr. Diwakar Davar is the Clinical Director of the Melanoma and Skin Cancer Program at UPMC Hillman Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Davar.

See More from Evolve Non-Melanoma Skin Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello, and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program focuses on helping patients with advanced non-melanoma skin cancer. We’ll review treatments, and research, and share advice for getting involved in care decisions. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar.  

At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey. Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars. Finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice.  

Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Diwakar Davar. Dr. Davar, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Davar:

Katherine, thank you for this invitation. My name is Diwakar. I’m a medical oncologist and I’m the Clinical Director of Cutaneous Malignancies and Melanoma at the University of Pittsburgh’s Hillman Cancer Center. My practice largely focuses on advanced skin cancer, including both melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancers. I also direct the translational research laboratory focusing on drug development. I’m glad to be able to contribute towards this program. And, I’m happy to answer any questions that you and your colleagues might have. 

Katherine:

Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to join us today. 

Dr. Davar:

Sure. 

Katherine:

Today, we’re focusing on the most common forms of advanced non-melanoma skin cancer. What does it mean to have advanced non-melanoma skin cancer? 

Dr. Davar:

Sure. “Non-melanoma skin cancer” is actually a very broad, heterogenous term and includes patients with cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma, which is actually the commonest cancer in the United States with approximately 1 million cases a year, the vast majority of which are actually not necessarily, particularly serious or deep but do indicate predisposition towards further cancers and exposure to carcinogenic ultraviolet light. 

It also includes the entities of Merkel cell carcinoma as well as basal cell carcinoma. These common cancers ranging from very common cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma to the least common Merkel cell carcinoma and basal cell in between are primarily seen in Caucasian patients. There is a predisposition towards these cancers we discovered in patients who are older, and certainly there is a predisposition in finding these cancers in certain anatomical regions such as the head and neck areas. Most of these cancers happen in older Caucasian patients, typically above the clavicle in the head, neck, around the ears, and on the cheeks and the face. 

Katherine:

Why is that?  

Dr. Davar:

Well, the primary etiologic agent driving carcinogenesis in these cancers is ultraviolet light.  

Again, the vast majority of ultraviolet light exposure happens to people before the age of 12, and it happens predominantly on the head and neck because that is the area that is most exposed to the sun. The cancer takes a while to form because the carcinogenic effects take a while to cause the cancer. So predominantly, patients, as they start hitting their 70s and 80s, it becomes increasingly common and occasionally, these cancers can actually end up being serious and start causing advanced cancers.  

Dr. Davar:

You know, in most cases, the definition of what is considered an advanced cancer is stage IV disease. If you have lung cancer, advanced lung cancer is stage IV cancer that has spread to the opposite lung, or to the brain, or the liver. 

If you have advanced melanoma, it is cancer that has spread to a distant organ such as the lung, the liver, or the brain. Skin cancer is very, very different. Because of its unique anatomical location, even a large tumor that potentially can be cut out but hasn’t necessarily spread can still threaten vital organs. You can have a 3 cm tumor near the eye that is threatening the globe. If it is not shrunk, the surgical resection of this tumor will potentially involve removing the eye.   

Similarly, you can have a very large tumor that is not necessarily spread, but is involving the right side of the cheek near the jaw. In which case, the potential surgical removal of this tumor would involve the extremely disfiguring surgery of jaw removal, what is known as mandibulectomy.   

Given the nature of these tumors and the location of these tumors, the definition of locally advanced for this particular cancer has started to incorporate more elements of the location and the ease of which the cancer can be removed, which is very distinct from cancers in other locations, and also the proximity of these cancers to critical structures such as the nose, the lips, the eye, as well as critical vascular and neurovascular structures in the neck, such as the carotid artery, the internal and external jugular veins, and the vagal nerve bundle. 

Katherine:

What approaches are currently available to treat these more common forms of advanced non-melanoma skin cancer? 

Dr. Davar:

Right now, the most common mode of treatment is typically treating cancer that is localized.  

Again, even with the extremely increasing incident of these cancers, the vast majority of cancers that we detect are still localized and are amenable to easy surgical eradication by a trained dermatologist or a trained mole surgeon. A trained dermatologist, a trained mole surgeon, a plastic surgeon, these are commonly the physicians that encounter these patients. Surgical removal is still the primary mode of eradications of these lesions. However, increasingly, there is a role for early systemic therapy and local regional therapy to improve patient outcomes for reasons that we can talk about. Still, the vast majority of patients are still treated surgically and then increasingly, there is the role for referral to medical oncologists and radiation oncologists to talk about alternative forms of treatment that may be needed after that. 

Katherine:

What sort of alternative therapies? Are you looking at targeted therapies? Immunotherapies?  

Dr. Davar:

The primary reason for which advances have happened in this disease is really the advent of effective systemic immunotherapy and the spillover of immunotherapy into the patient landscape in these diseases. The reason for that is as follows. Immunotherapy essentially is most effective in tumors that carry a high tumor mutation burden. For example, melanoma has a tumor mutation burden on average of about 15. And the tumor mutation burden in melanoma is driven by the fact that melanoma, cutaneous melanoma is an ultraviolet light-driven skin cancer.  

However, non-melanoma skin cancers have tumor mutation burdens that are many, many magnitudes higher than that of melanoma. For example, the median tumor mutation burden in cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma is 50. Melanoma is 15. The median tumor mutation burden in cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma is three times that of melanoma. Similarly, for Merkel cell carcinoma. A large majority of Merkel cell carcinoma is caused by an unusual virus known as a Merkel cell polyomavirus. Both the viral driven tumors and the non-viral driven tumors have high tumor mutation burdens, and the same is true of basal cell carcinoma because of ultraviolet light exposure.  

The primary reason why immunotherapy has gotten a foothold in these diseases is because the underlying etiologic agent that drives carcinogenesis, ultraviolet light for the majority of these, and the Merkel cell polyomavirus for the subcategory of non-melanoma skin cancer that is Merkel are both associated with a response to immunotherapy.  

As a result of that, immunotherapy, anti-PD-1 immunotherapy is now standard of care for patients with tumors that are either locally advanced undissectible or locally advanced and/or metastatic, that is, that they have spread. They are now available for use and FDA-approved for this indication in both Merkel, basal, as well as non-melanoma cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma. 

Katherine:

Dr. Davar, now that we understand approved approaches, can you walk us through ongoing research and developing treatments that patients should know about? 

Dr. Davar:

Yeah. Now, if you think about it, the vast majority of patients with, say, cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma is presenting with large tumors involving the areas of the head and neck region. The average tumor size is approximately 1 to 2 cm.  

There are small groups of patients with much larger tumors and/or tumors with high-risk features. These include tumors that are either anatomically large or 3 cm, 4 cm in size, tumors that involve critical locations, such as the bone, the skull table, the jaw, tumors that are very close proximity to critical structures such as the eye, or tumors involving lift nodes in the neck. 

In these patients, recent work by many groups including ours has demonstrated that perioperative immunotherapy improves outcomes. What is perioperative immunotherapy? In the context of melanoma and lung cancer, giving people immunotherapy before surgery improves patient outcomes. This the same drug that you would normally get after surgery, but giving it before surgery. The very same drug before surgery improves event-free survival.  

It improves the likelihood of cancer not coming back. The primary reason for that is by turning the immune system on even before you take the tumor out, you sensitize the immune system to tumor antigens, you kill more cancer, and you do that while the tumor is present because the immune system acts and recognizes this with the immune therapy acting as a vaccine. This approach has now migrated to non-melanoma skin cancer and is actually transformative, particularly given the location of these tumors which render surgery difficult.   

Therefore, in this disease, not only is perioperative immunotherapy especially transformative in terms in terms of producing dramatic response rates, the median response rate of pathologic perioperative immunotherapy is approximately a path CR rate of approximately 50 percent. In pivotal trials done by Neil Gross, the results of which have been published in prominent journals, neoadjuvant or perioperative Cemiplimab, anti-PD-1 inhibitor has shown path response rates of approximately 50 percent. 

Whether it’s given for two cycles over six weeks or four cycles over three months, this drug really dramatically reduces the tumor and improves the likelihood of the cancer not coming back. More interestingly, recent data has also shown that this affects surgical outcomes in other ways. Historically, in melanoma and lung cancer and other diseases where perioperative immunotherapy is a standard of care, we never considered the nature of the surgery. Patients still underwent the same surgery that they would’ve undergone anyway whether or not they got immunotherapy.  

However, given the dramatic effect of perioperative immunotherapy, increasingly, we are turning out attention, particularly in cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma, which involves critical structures, to the role of surgical de-escalation as well as radiation de-escalation.  

We’re trying to see if by using perioperative immunotherapy, you can give people potentially less radical surgery, make people heal faster, undergo less plastic surgical reconstruction, improve functional outcomes, and also reduce the need for radiation, particularly in the patients who have done extraordinarily well to reduce the risk of radiation-related early and long-term toxicity.  

These results, some of which are recently being presented at prominent national meetings by Dr. Zuur from the Dutch NKI. As well as Dr. Ascierto from the Italian National Cancer Institute in Naples have shown that firstly, the pathological response rates are high but very provocatively, surgical de-escalation has been achieved and is associated with good quality of life. What we are seeing here is that perioperative immunotherapy really has an increasing role. Particularly in this disease, for reasons that have to do with the unique anatomical location of perioperative cutaneous squamous carcinoma.  

Perioperative immunotherapy is also migrating to other non-melanoma skin cancers including Merkel and basal cell carcinoma. Early trials have been done. The drugs appear to be effective. However, trials are still needed to further understand the role of perioperative immunotherapy in these other two entities. However, in cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma, perioperative trials are very advanced, pivotal trials are being designed, and increasingly, this is considered a standard of care for potentially resectable patients.  

You and I have talked about the role of immunocompetent non-melanoma skin cancer but one thing that patients do not necessarily realize that if you have a solid organ transplant such as a liver transplant, a heart transplant, or a kidney transplant, the primary reason for mortality in the first one year is allograft failure. However, if you make it past three years, the primary reason for mortality is cancer, and not cancer of the lung, but primarily, skin cancer. In this instance, the reason that skin cancer is common now, on average, skin cancers in transplant patients are much more common than skin cancer in non-transplant patients.  

In fact, patients with solid organ transplants had 100-fold higher risk of developing skin cancer compared to the general population. It has to do with the immunosuppression that is used. The immune suppression that maintains allograft tolerance also reduces T cell function. 

That reduction in T cell function allows for immune escape and the development of high-risk skin cancers. The most important thing that transplant patients need to do is make sure that they see a dermatologist. Increasingly, as we discover high risk skin cancer, there have been two main approaches that have been identified that are potentially helpful. The first is investigators at two primary sites. One, Dr. Evan Lipson at the Johns Hopkins University and Dr. Glenn Hanna at Mass General Hospital have independently demonstrated, and very provocatively, that in organ transplant patients, very close titration of immunosuppression can be done to allow for the concomitant use of immune modulating therapy.  

Historically, this is a patient population for whom systemic anti PD-1 immunotherapy was technically contraindicated because the primary risk was allograft failure. What Dr. Hanna and Dr. Lipson have demonstrated is that by carefully modulating the doses of immune suppression, you can co-administer systemic anti PD-1 without allograft rejection, and these transformative results have been publicly represented by Dr. Hanna and Dr. Lipson as a paper under review in a prominent journal.  

Concurrently, work by a biopharmaceutical company has demonstrated that the intralesional administration of an oncolytic virus, a cancer killing virus known as RP1, has provocatively demonstrated anti-cancer effect in high-risk, advanced transplant-associated skin cancers.  

These data have been presented by many colleagues, including myself and others at several recent meetings. And the most recent publication of which was by Dr. Mike Migden of MD Anderson Cancer Center in a recent transplant meeting. This drug, which was injected within the tumor by direct visual injection has dramatic effect in up to about 25 percent of the treated patients without any risk of allograft rejection and/or herpes serial conversion because this is an attenuated herpes virus. These two advances have dramatically altered the potential for patients with solid organ cancers who are developing skin cancers to potentially get novel agents that would otherwise, the absence of which, potentially result in mortality. 

Katherine:

Wow. That’s really exciting news. Research often moves quickly and I think you’re just pointing this out. How can patients stay up to date with what’s going on? 

Dr. Davar:

Well, it’s very difficult. The information is moving at the speed of light in this disease. In fact, the first study of perioperative immunotherapy was done two years ago. Right now, perioperative immunotherapy is on NCCN guidelines. 

It’s not FDA-approved, but it’s a strong Class One recommendation on NCCN given the dramatic data that Dr. Gross and many of our colleagues have generated. Just in the span of three years, much has been achieved. The way to stay up to date is to read and also to seek out information from well-trusted sources. Information such as what has been generated by the Health Content Collective, information that is from WebMD and these other areas are very useful, but do check in with your providers. Please make sure your providers are up to date and do not be afraid of asking questions. No provider would ever feel insulted that you are questioning his or her judgment by asking a question.  

I often welcome patients to ask me questions about whether or not I feel like this is the best therapeutic modality. And, do ask if there is a role for novel treatments. This is particularly because when you advance, as I mentioned, at the speed of light, particularly in the context of patients who are immunosuppressed.

Katherine:

Dr. Davar, thank you for that detailed information. It is really valuable. You mentioned, a few moments ago, clinical trials. What are the benefits of participating in a clinical trial? 

Dr. Davar:

Well, the first and the most important benefit of participating in a clinical trial is that oftentimes, your team is larger. Normally, a patient has a doctor. We have a PA and we have a nurse taking care of them. When you have a clinical trial, at that clinical trial, you have three, four, five times that number of people taking care of you. There are research nurses, research coordinators, nurse navigators, and all of these people are looking over your chart helping the doctor cross check and check to make sure that nothing falls through the cracks.  

The first and the most important thing is when you enter a clinical trial, your team grows. You have a primary physician taking care of you, but he has more help and more support. That helps ensure that the best possible care is delivered for our patients. The second benefit of taking part in clinical trials is that you oftentimes have access to the latest and the greatest.  

For example, in the context of non-melanoma skin cancer that is transplant associated, these provocative approaches that are being tested, immune augmentation of immune suppression with concurrent systemic immunotherapy without causing allograft rejection, this is only available in the context of an NCI, ECTCN funded trial that Dr. Lipson is leading. If you’re not a member of one of the ECTCN sites, you do not have access to this trial. If you’re not a patient that is being seen at one of these sites, you, unfortunately, do not have access to this trial.  

The key thing here is, entering a clinical trial represents the ability, potentially, to get a treatment that potentially could improve cancer and save one’s life without causing allograft rejection. In the context of the RP1 study, you could potentially be getting a drug that doesn’t cause allograft rejection and causes cancer aggression in a significant number of patients. But again, it is not a standard of care agent. 

Entering clinical trials helps you because it allows you access to the latest and the greatest in terms of treatment modalities. But also, it allows you to receive the best possible care.  

Katherine:

You know, Dr. Davar, we often hear this term “personalized medicine.” What does it mean? 

Dr. Davar:

Personalized medicine really means individualizing the patient’s treatment for that particular patient’s tumor. No two tumors are the same. Every tumor is different just as every person is different. Therefore, identifying and crafting the optimal treatment plan really involves identifying the most available and up-to-date information about the person’s tumor and contextualizing the treatment options in that setting.  

For example, in the context of Merkel cell polyoma, the virus associated with Merkel cell carcinoma, the treatment options would certainly include checkpoint inhibitor therapy with the understanding that the Merkel cell polyomavirus status could change both the response to the treatment but also the monitoring of the treatment because there is and acid that uses antibody titers to track the disease.  

In the context of patients with advanced cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma, the presence or absence of intratumoral CD8 T cells very provocatively can affect the response of checkpoint inhibitor therapy. The key thing to understand about personalized medicine is the more information we have about your tumor, the more informed we are about not only your current treatment, but also what future treatments might be available to you if the current treatment stops working. 

Katherine:

Aside from testing, what other factors are involved when choosing therapy? 

Dr. Davar:

These factors include, particularly for non-melanoma skin cancers, the patient’s age and performance status. We do know that as patients get older, their comorbid piece changes. They have a higher risk of having concomitant second illness such as cardiac issues, diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol issues, strokes, and coronary artery disease.  

These diseases in and of themselves do not necessarily affect one treatment choice over another, but it may change how you treat the patient. For example, a 60-year-old patient with melanoma may be a great surgical candidate. A 60-year-old patient with squamous cell carcinoma maybe a great surgical candidate. However, an 85-year-old patient with cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma with a tumor near the eye may not necessarily be a great surgical candidate because even though the tumor could be removed, it would result in the removal of that person’s eye.  

If this person has already has got, for example, age-related issues with balance, age-related issues with difficulty and vision and depth perception, removing this person’s eye, which is a very morbid procedure, but can be done at relatively low surgical risk, could really affect this patient’s quality of life and may force you to rethink what you would do and may result in you offering this patient a different treatment modality such as upfront use of systemic therapy rather than a standard surgical approach.  

The idea is that the more information you have about the patient, the easier it is to contextualize the treatment for a particular patient and particularly in the context of non-melanoma skin cancer. Which often time happens to patients who are, on average, one decade older than patients with melanoma. Taking their age and taking their comorbid conditions is very important in determining the treatment modality and also in making individualized patient recommendations. 

Katherine:

It’s not always easy to access the latest treatments or to find a specialist. I’m wondering what the common obstacles patients face in accessing the best care.  

Dr. Davar:

Some of the major issues are access to highly specialized treatment centers. Across the entire United States, there are clearly comprehensive cancer centers where the NCIS designated these places as being areas where patient care can deliver clinical trials available.  

Oftentimes, there is the breadth of research all the way from population research all the way to clinical trials. Not everybody has access to a comprehensive cancer center. Some patients may be living in a geographical location that is remote. Some patients could be living in a location that is not necessarily remote from a comprehensive cancer center, but may have social determinants of health that make it hard for them to access these comprehensive cancer centers. The only way around this is information.  

Patients need to be able to access information in a fashion that is both trusted, and up-to-date, and secure so that they are enabled and equipped with the right information for them to be able to have informed discussions about their care with their providers. 

Katherine:

This is all such great information, Dr. Davar. As we wrap up, I would like to get your thoughts.  

How do you feel about the future of advanced non-melanoma skin cancer research? 

Dr. Davar:

I am actually extraordinary optimistic about this landscape. When I started out as an oncologist, my big focus was in melanoma. I very quickly realized that most of the excitement was certainly, while in melanoma, was being generated, it was actually spilling over into non-melanoma skin cancer and the primary reason for that is the unique patient level challenges that make this disease a difficult disease to treat. The patient age, the comorbidities, the fact that a vast majority of our patients had gotten transplants, and that resulted in a relative contraindication of the administration of the effective agents that were developed that eradicated the majority of this disease.   

What oftentimes is a challenge, what is one man’s challenge is another man’s potential cure and it’s a potential benefit in an area in which it could be studied.  

What we realize about these challenges is they actually give us opportunities and avenues for research. As we think about non-melanoma skin cancer, we realize that this is an area in which there is tremendous potential where you can potentially give people immune therapy and improved outcomes, but not just improve patient outcomes in making people live longer, but also by reducing the burden of care by reducing the amount of surgery and radiation that people need that enables people to not just live longer, but live longer and maintain their quality of life as they age, and allows them to age with dignity. 

Katherine:

Dr. Davar, it all sounds so exciting. I want to thank you for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Davar:

Well, thank you for having me on this lovely program. 

Katherine:

And, thank you to all of our collaborators. If you would like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. Don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs.  

To learn more about advanced non-melanoma skin cancer, and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us today.  

PODCAST: Advanced Prostate Cancer: How to Access the Best Care and Treatment for YOU

/in , , , , , , , /by

 

Progress in advanced prostate cancer has led to more personalized treatment options and individualized care for people with this diagnosis. Dr. Xin Gao discusses how the results of essential testing can help guide a patient’s prognosis and treatment path, reviews available therapies, and shares advice for self-advocacy.

Bio:
Dr. Xin Gao is a Medical Oncologist at Massachusetts General Hospital. Learn more about Dr. Gao.

Download Resource Guide

See More From INSIST! Prostate Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m your host Katherine Banwell. Today’s program focuses on how people with advanced prostate cancer can access the best treatment in care. We’ll review essential testing, discuss the latest research, and share tips for self-advocacy. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to a resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar. At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey. Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars.  

Finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Xin Gao. Dr. Gao, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Gao:

Yeah. Thank you very much for having me. My name is Xin Gao. I’m a medical oncologist at Mass General Cancer Center in Boston, Massachusetts. I focus on prostate cancer and other cancers involving the urinary system. I’m also involved in our clinical trials program where we’re studying newer and what we hope are better treatments for these types of cancers.  

Katherine:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I know you’re a busy guy.  

Dr. Gao:

I’m happy to be here.  

Katherine:

Good. Dr. Gao, this program is focusing on advanced prostate cancer. Would you walk us through how the disease progresses in each stage? 

Dr. Gao:

Sure. I think advanced prostate cancer can mean a lot of different things, but in general, it means a prostate cancer that has either spread out from the prostate gland itself to other areas of the body or has recurred despite either surgery or radiation-based therapy to the primary prostate tumor. 

In each of these situations, typically the focus would on medication types of treatments and we think about advanced prostate cancer as either hormone-sensitive or hormone-resistant, or the other term in the field for it would be castration-resistant, meaning that the prostate cancer is either sensitive to hormonal therapies or perhaps it’s no longer sensitive to the most common type of hormone therapy called androgen deprivation therapy. So, those are sort of the ways that the cancer can progress, and typically all these cancers start as hormone-sensitive prostate cancers and over time, they may evolve and become resistant and become what we call castration-resistant prostate cancer. 

Katherine:

Okay. So, they’re not numbered as in a lot of other cancers, like stage I, stage II?  

Dr. Gao:

Meaning by stage, oh. So, there are stages. All advanced prostate cancers are by definition stage IV. All advanced cancers, in general, are stage IV but advanced prostate cancer would be stage IV. Most prostate cancers actually present as localized prostate cancer, stage I, stage II, even stage III prostate cancers and the majority of localized prostate cancers are actually fortunately quite curable with either surgery or radiation-based therapies.  

Unfortunately, not all are curable and some will recur despite these curative intent treatments and others might just be inherently more aggressive biologically and they could even present with metastatic disease or stage IV disease having spread to other sites outside of the prostate gland, even at diagnosis. 

When prostate cancer metastasizes or spreads, it commonly spreads by lymphatic vessels or by the bloodstream and most commonly, they tend to go to either lymph nodes or bones or some combination of both. More common areas of lymph node spread are in the pelvic areas, kind of near where the prostate gland is, or deep in the abdomen in an area called the retroperitoneum. And then bones more commonly could be in sort of the back or spine bones or in the pelvic bones, but it could go to other areas less common as well.  

Katherine:

What are common symptoms of advanced disease, and how are the symptoms managed? 

Dr. Gao:

So, with advanced disease, the symptoms can present in a variety of different ways.  

They’re often related to where the cancer has spread to. If there’s a tumor in the prostate gland itself or next to it, some patients might experience urinary symptoms, urinary frequency, feeling of incomplete emptying or a weak urinary flow. Or even pain or discomfort of leading with urination. That’s sort of the primary prostate tumor itself. Bone metastases can cause bone pain and commonly this involves bones in the spine or back or in the pelvis.   

There’s also a heightened risk of fractures with bone metastases and obviously that can sometimes cause pain. However, I think I should mention, many bone metastases actually don’t cause pain. It’s not uncommon that we see a bone scan or a CAT scan that the cancer is in multiple bones, but the patient actually, you know, I think fortunately, doesn’t feel any pain from that. 

Lymph node spread, I would say, rarely causes symptoms early on, but if there’s significant enlargement of these lymph nodes or in risking anatomic areas, sometimes the lymph nodes can cause discomfort or pain. Sometimes they can compress upon major veins or blood vessels or on the ureters that drain the kidneys and cause either blood clots or lower extremity swelling if it’s the major veins or cause kidney dysfunction because the ureters aren’t draining the kidneys appropriately. And then, I think in general, as with any advanced cancer, advanced prostate cancer can commonly cause fatigue and cause patients to just kind of generally feel unwell in sort of a hard to pinpoint type of way.  

I think it’s sort of the general toll that the cancer – the burden of the cancer is causing on the body and maybe taking, you know, essential nutrients or other things away from normal body organs or body cells.  

Katherine:

How are some of these symptoms managed?  

Dr. Gao:

So, pain, if people have pain, it’s typically managed with analgesics and pain medications, whether it’s Tylenol or ibuprofen. Other NSAID types of medications. Opiates and narcotic pain medications are commonly used for advanced prostate cancers as well to control and manage and treat the pain. And patients with cancers involving the bones that have become resistant to standard hormone therapy, we also commonly give medications called bisphosphonates. 

Zoledronic acid is a common one. Or a related medication called denosumab to try to reduce the risk of fractures, to strengthen the bones a bit. And these medications can also help with bone pain to some extent. And sometimes we treat other symptoms of cancer with medications that might help improve energy levels and improve the fatigue, for example.  

So, methylphenidate or methylphenidate  (Ritalin) is a common medication that is used to try to help with energy levels or reduced energy in advanced cancer patients. Sometimes steroid medications can do that as well, could be helpful. Appetite, reduced appetite with advanced cancer is not uncommon, although I think for prostate cancer, we see it to a lesser extent compared to other advanced cancers. 

There are other medications, steroids being one of them, and medications like mirtazapine or Remeron can be used to help try to simulate the appetite a little bit more. In terms of other symptoms, urinary symptoms, let’s say from the primary prostate tumor, that’s often co-managed with my colleagues in urology. There are medications that can be used to try to help with the urinary flow or stream in some situations or perhaps procedural interventions that might be able to help open up the urinary outlet a little bit more. Those things can be considered as well.  

Katherine:

I’d like to talk about what goes into deciding on a treatment pass. What testing is used to understand a patient’s individual disease? 

Dr. Gao:

There is a lot of testing that we do for – to try and characterize a patient’s individual disease and try to select an optimal management strategy for their specific cancer and their specific situation. 

We look at the biopsy, the pathology. The most common type of prostate cancer is called adenocarcinoma, but rarely we see certain other types under the microscope, things like neuroendocrine or small cell prostate cancers that tend to be treated in a different way. We look at things like the Gleason score.  

That tells us a bit more about sort of the aggressiveness of this cancer, as well as the PSA, you know, it’s a very good correlate for how the cancer is doing in general once somebody has been diagnosed with prostate cancer. For imaging tests, we commonly rely on imaging. We look at prostate MRIs to get an idea of the local extent of the prostate tumor. We get things like bone scans and CAT scans to look at the entire rest of the body to see if or where the cancer may have spread to.  

And there are newer imaging tests like the PSMA PET scan, which we commonly use now, which is a much more sensitive test for detecting prostate cancer in 2023 compared to traditional scans like CAT scans and bone scans. I also commonly make use of genetic testing and molecular information.  

So, for any patient with an advanced prostate cancer, I do recommend both what we call a germline test, which is testing for inherited cancer genes that a patient could have gotten from the parents and pass onto their kids, as well as somatic testing, which is testing the cancer itself to see what genetic mutations or alterations might’ve developed within their cancer. And that can actually factor into certain treatments that the patient may or may not be more likely to benefit from if they have these genetic mutations.  

Katherine:

Dr. Gao, a patient sent in this question prior to the program. What other genetic testing, beside BRCA markers, are important for deciding future targeted therapies and how are each of them used? 

Dr. Gao:

Yeah, that’s a great question. Targeted therapies have been used in a lot of different cancers and it’s only really within the past few years that we’re using them as a standard of care routinely in prostate cancers. So, BRCA II and BRCA I mutations are some of the more common mutations or genetic alterations that are targetable in prostate cancer. Recently, there have been multiple FDA approvals of different drugs that are called PARP inhibitor, which are able to target the cancer if they have BRCA II or BRCA I mutations.   

Beyond BRCA II and BRCA I, there’s a panel of what’s called homologous recombination repair genes and that’s defined differently in varying extents, depending on the specific drug. That has been FDA approved, but in general, it’s about 12-14 genes total and they actually include the BRCA II and BRCA I genes.  

So, some of the ones that have been…it seems like the data shows maybe more activity or better efficacy with these PARP inhibitors include a gene called PALB2, P-A-L-B 2. It’s not a very common mutation that we see, but it is something that we should look for because even if it’s not common overall for the patient who has it, it could be a very helpful and useful gene to know that that they have and it certainly would warrant treatment with a PARP inhibitor. 

The other sort of dozen  or so…10-12 genes in this homologous recombination repair pathway, the data, I would say, is still early and it is still somewhat limited in terms of how much people with those gene mutations truly benefit from these PARP inhibitors, but I do think it’s important to look for them, to know that if they do have one of these genetic mutations that it does make a PARP inhibitor an option for them. And then, beyond these HRR genes, I always look for something called a microsatellite instability or mismatched repair deficiency. These are sort of genetic features or really a panel of about four genes involved in a cellular process called – a DNA repair process called mismatch repair.  

For those patients that have either mismatched repair deficiency or microsatellite instability high cancers, I do recommend that they consider an immunotherapy medication called pembrolizumab which is FDA-approved regardless of cancer type for any MSI high or mismatched repair cancer and they’ve shown pretty solid activity for those kinds of cancers.  

Katherine:

Dr. Gao, now that we know what goes into understanding a patient’s disease, I’d like to talk about treatment, starting with treatment goals. How do goals vary by patient, if they vary at all? 

Dr. Gao:

Sure, yeah. I do think they vary and I think it is important to be clear about what the realistic goals of treatment might be so that the patient can make an informed decision on how the prostate cancer should be treated or managed. 

Some prostate cancers are highly curable, although there isn’t anything that’s 100 percent, right? And others are curable, but we acknowledge that there may still be a significant risk of relapse despite treatment. And maybe that rough percentage, the probability of cure and sort of the potential downsides or side effects of treatment, that’s something that the patient has to weigh in terms of whether they want to proceed with that treatment or not.  

And then, there are cancers, especially with advanced prostate cancers, that are unfortunately not curable, but yet treatments have the ability to significantly prolong somebody’s life, to slow the cancer progression down or even to shrink it, and to improve cancer-associated symptoms and other sources of distress that we talked about earlier. 

And so, with each patient, I think it is important to talk about these treatment goals because it may not be readily clear, is this a curable cancer or not? And it might not be clear how much benefit they might expect with treatment or are we talking about a marginal benefit? And then that way, you know, they can think about it, talk about it with their family, and kind of factor into their overall benefit risk calculation about whether to do something or not.  

Katherine:

Would you provide an overview of current treatment options for advanced disease? 

Dr. Gao:

Sure. So, it’s a big, very open-ended question, I think.  

So, I think you can divide it up into sort of the major treatment modalities, so things like radiation or radiation types of therapies, chemotherapy, hormonal therapies which are the mainstay of prostate cancer treatments, targeted therapies, and immunotherapies.   

Starting with hormonal therapies which are the backbone of prostate cancer treatments, for advanced prostate cancer, androgen deprivation therapy or ADT is often given indefinitely as the typical standard of care treatment and there are various forms of ADT, most commonly in the form of long-lasting injectable medications – leuprolide (Eligard/Lupron Depot), goserelin (Zoladex), sometimes degarelix (Firmagaon)  is used. And then more recently, there was an FDA approval a couple years ago of an oral pill called relugolix (Orgovyx), which is also a form of ADT or androgen deprivation therapy.   

These medications block the body’s ability to make testosterone which is important for prostate cancer survival and spread. In addition, abiraterone is an oral medication that is also considered a hormonal therapy. It blocks the production on androgens or male sex hormones outside of the testes. That includes the adrenal glands and some other tissues such as prostate cancer itself. And abiraterone (Zytiga) is commonly used in advanced prostate cancer management, in addition to androgen deprivation therapy whereas ADT blocks the testes from making testosterone and androgens, abiraterone blocks the production of androgens outside of the testes. 

And then finally, oral anti-androgen medications that block the prostate cancers from being able to detect androgens or male hormones and to block the androgen receptors on prostate cancers from sending cellular signals for growth and survival are also very commonly used.  

There are older anti-androgen medications like bicalutamide (Casodex), flutamide (Eulexin), lutamide, and there are newer ones, stronger versions, called enzalutamide (Xtandi), apalutamide (Erleada), and darolutamide (Nubeqa). For most patients who present with advanced prostate cancer, I think this is much easier, ADT along with either abiraterone or one of the newer, stronger anti-androgens, is the standard of care for most advanced prostate cancer patients with metastatic disease.  

And then, sometimes for patients with higher volume or more aggressive cancers even in the group with metastatic disease, we even add on another treatment, usually chemotherapy, something called docetaxel for what we call triple therapy. And then, maybe that’s a segue to chemotherapy, so docetaxel chemotherapy is a common chemotherapy used for prostate cancer, certainly advanced prostate cancers. Cabazitaxel (Jevtana) is also a common chemotherapy in this situation. These two are related drugs in a family of drugs called taxane chemotherapies and basically they kind of block the trafficking of important components within cancer cells and cause the cancer cell death.  

Docetaxel (Taxotere) is the more commonly used one. It’s typically used earlier, before cabazitaxel. And like I said earlier, for certain patients with what we call high volume metastatic prostate cancer, it’s often used in combination with hormonal therapies early on, what we call upfront therapy for six cycles. If a patient doesn’t receive docetaxel up front, docetaxel is commonly used after progression, after the cancer has progressed on ADT and one of the oral hormone medications.  

Cabazitaxel is more commonly used after a patient has previously received or progressed on docetaxel. Both drugs have been evaluated in randomized Phase III clinical trials and have shown to provide efficacy for patients with advanced prostate cancers. 

In addition to these taxane chemotherapies, platinum chemotherapy, such as carboplatin or cisplatin, are sometimes used for advanced prostate cancers as well, especially for certain neuroendocrine or small cell prostate cancers. These are rarer cancers, but they tend to respond better to platinum-based chemotherapies.  

Or for certain what we call aggressive variant prostate cancers, these platinum-based chemotherapies are also used in combination with either one of the taxanes or with another chemotherapy drug called etoposide. In terms of other treatment modalities, I think recently what we call radiotherapeutics or radioligand therapies have gotten a lot of press with the approval of a new medication called lutetium PSMA or 177 lutetium PSMA 617 (Pluvicto). 

The brand name for that in the U.S. is Pluvicto and what this is is a drug that’s a small molecule that binds to PSMA, which is a protein highly expressed in close to 90% of prostate cancer, advanced prostate cancers. And the small molecule will home to the cancer and it’s linked to radioactive lutetium and the lutetium will decay in that area and lead to cancer cell death.  

So, Pluvicto or lutetium was FDA approved in spring of 2022 based on randomized Phase III trials that show significant efficacy for patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer who have previously received a second-generation androgen receptor pathway inhibitor, such as abiraterone and enzalutamide, as well as a taxane chemotherapy, like docetaxel or cabazitaxel.  

The medication is given intravenously, once every six weeks, for up to six doses, and there are ongoing clinical trials, actually, that are trying to evaluate this medication in earlier settings where patients haven’t gotten prior chemotherapy before. There was a press release from about half a year ago stating that they’re seeing some early encouraging signs of efficacy with this drug, even in patients who had never received chemotherapy before, so it may be a medication that is going to be used more and more so in more patients even earlier in their course of disease. 

Katherine:

This actually leads me to my next question which is about research news. 

Prostate cancer research is evolving quickly, like so many other cancers. And it’s important for patients to stay up to date on developing news. So, are there research advances that patients should be aware of? 

Dr. Gao:

Yeah, I mean some of the treatments that I just mentioned, PARP inhibitors, pembrolizumab (Keytruda) for MSI higher and mismatch repair deficient tumors and lutetium. Those have come out of recent major clinical trials and have become the standard of care in a lot of different…in various different settings for patients. And there are always new research trials, clinical trials, that are going to either move some of these established treatments to earlier lines of setting, earlier lines of treatment, or using them in maybe combination with other drugs where we might learn that they’re more useful if we combine it with another drug or maybe combine it with hormone treatments earlier rather than later. 

So, there are always clinical trials for advanced prostate cancer. There are even newer trials, novel therapies, completely new treatments that have been studied in the laboratory in say petri dish models of cancer or animal, mouse models of prostate cancer, but have shown enough early exciting data to try to move them into human beings and hopefully help advanced prostate cancer patients. 

Katherine:

Dr. Gao, if a patient is feeling like they’re not getting proper care or if they’re just not comfortable with their care team, what steps would you recommend they take to change the situation? 

Dr. Gao:

Yeah, I think that’s a difficult question to answer and it depends on sort of what the specifics are, but I will always encourage people to be up front with their providers, with their oncologists and their oncology team. I think it’s… it really is a collaboration and it really needs mutual trust and open communication.  

And to be able to say these are the things that I wish could be a bit better or not that different or could you clarify this or answer this or what about this idea or this thing that maybe I heard about. See what their thoughts are. I think clear communication is always important and it shouldn’t – I tell my patients that I view my role as sort of advising them about what the reasonable treatment or management strategies might be in their situation and what the data shows and what is recommended. 

But ultimately, it is a shared decision and the patient is in charge of their own body and own health and they can make the decision on what makes sense for them. So, again, I think it’ s a two-way street and open communication is the most important thing.  

Katherine:

As we wrap up, Dr. Gao, I’d like to get your thoughts. How do you feel about where we stand with advanced prostate cancer care? 

Dr. Gao:

Yeah. I think there have been a lot of advances in advanced prostate cancer care in recent years. Newer and better treatment strategies seem to come along every couple of years and I think what we’ve seen for advanced prostate cancer patients over the past, really, since probably 2015 or so, is a significant improvement in outcomes, long-term outcomes like survival and slowing down of the cancer. 

And it’s… I think it’s important to acknowledge that and to acknowledge that the clinical trials in recent years have really led to a lot of improvements and really the hope that in the coming years, there’s going to be additional research, additional clinical trials, newer treatments hopefully, that will continue to improve outcomes for advanced prostate cancer patients. I also think that it’s really critical to evaluate the specific patients’ cancer characteristics, things like the genetic testing that I mentioned earlier, as well as their sort of life situations and other medical comorbidities to come to a shared decision about what makes the most sense in terms of their cancer management.  

Genetic testing might open up the option for certain FDA-approved therapies or consideration of certain targeted therapies that still might be in clinical trials. And clinical trials, again, are also an option for additional treatment strategies that otherwise would not be available. 

Katherine:

Dr. Gao, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Gao:

You’re welcome. Thanks for having me. 

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. If you would like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this program. It will help us as we plan future webinars. To learn more about prostate cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us. 

PODCAST: HCP Roundtable: Shared Decision-Making in Myeloproliferative Neoplasm (MPN) Care

/in , , , , , , /by

 

What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care? How should fellow MPN specialists explain disease progression to patients and care partners? In this HCP-to-HCP roundtable discussion, experts Dr. Gabriela Hobbs and Natasha Johsnon share best practices for helping your MPN patients play an active role in managing their health.

Dr. Gabriela Hobbs is a hematology-oncology physician specializing in the care of patients with myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPN), chronic myeloid leukemia, and leukemia. Dr. Hobbs serves as clinical director of the adult leukemia service at Massachusetts General Hospital and is an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. 

Natasha Johnson, is an Advanced Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for people living with MPNs with kindness, patience, and humanity. Natasha also speaks at conferences to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research, and treatment.

See More from Empowering MPN Providers to Empower Patients (EPEP)

Transcript:

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Welcome to this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. My name is Dr. Nicole Rochester, I’m a pediatrician and the CEO of Your GPS Doc. This program is for providers who desire to empower their patients and families. In this Patient Empowerment Network program, we connect MPN expert voices to discuss enhancing physician-patient communication and shared decision-making in MPN care. Some of the topics we’re going to cover today include how to help your MPN patients play an active role in managing their care, healthcare provider recommended strategies for managing disease burden to minimize disease impact on MPN patients’ lives, the importance of advanced practice clinicians on the health care team of MPN patients, clinical trials and the importance of nurses addressing this topic with their patients and families, as well as cultural humility in action.

I’m thrilled to be joined by MPN experts, Dr. Gabriela  Hobbs, Director of the Adult Leukemia Services at Massachusetts General Hospital and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Hobbs leads multiple investigator-initiated clinical trials in MPN as well as non-interventional trials, assessing outcomes for patients with MPN.

I am also thrilled to be joined by Natasha Johnson, an Oncology Nurse Practitioner at Moffitt Cancer Center, where she cares for patients living with MPN. Ms. Johnson also works to educate other healthcare professionals about MPN care, research and treatment. Thank you both for joining me for this important conversation.

Natasha Johnson:

So glad to be here. Thank you.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Thank you so much.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

So I’d like to start by talking about the MPN care team and best practices for shared decision-making. We hear a lot about shared decision-making in healthcare. I would say for some, it’s more of a buzzword than an actual practice. I’m sure that you all agree that it’s incredibly important and really a core for the type of care that we should provide patients and their families, so I’d love to hear from each of you about what does that actually mean? What does shared decision-making look like in myeloproliferative neoplasm care. And we’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Great question. I think shared decision-making can take many different forms in many of our clinical encounters, and I think one of the luxuries that we have in myeloproliferative neoplasms is that a lot of the decision-making that we need to make doesn’t have to happen immediately, and we also have the luxury of really getting to know our patients over time. And so having that longitudinal relationship, I think really helps in shared decision-making, because I know who that patient is, I know what’s important to them, we get to know their families, and they’ve also gotten to know our care team throughout our relationship. But in general, when we do need to make a decision about treatment, using that foundation, I think is really what’s most important for shared decision-making.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Oftentimes, patients are the drivers of a lot of these decisions and they’ll bring up the questions, but, of course, every patient is a little bit different, and sometimes I need to be more on the side of bringing up the questions, etcetera. So I think knowing where your patient is emotionally, what’s important to them, what are their worries, is really important, so you can have a conversation where you’re not just speaking about the things that you as a provider think is important, but really also listening to where the patient is coming from, and so that you can make sure that you’re appeasing their anxieties and whatever decision you make is consistent with both what you think is medically important, but also with what’s really important for the patients. I think listening is really at the core there.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Love that you highlighted listening. I think that’s something that we often don’t do enough of in healthcare, so thank you for that, Dr. Hobbs. What about you, Ms. Johnson? What are your thoughts about shared decision making in MPN care? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yeah, I agree with everything Dr. Hobbs said. I really believe it’s just…it starts with conversations and taking the time, making sure that you have the patient, you have the caregiver, if they can’t be there in person, sometimes you’re calling them on the phone. If it’s through Zoom visit they’re joining, and the health care provider, and I think that we spend a ton of time educating them to make sure that they really understand this disease, the symptoms that go along with it, the treatments that go along with that, and once we have a good confidence that they understand everything, lead them into discussing what their goals of care are, and then we take all that information together, and we create a treatment plan specific to that patient, really aiming to improve their quality of life and overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, so both of you spoke about the importance of listening and of really understanding the goals of the patients and their care partners, their family members, understanding their values, but we know that in reality, when you’re in that examination room and when you have all the distractions and all the competing priorities and the limited time, which is the thing I hear about most, I think, when I’m talking to colleagues, sometimes it can be difficult to put this into practice. So what can you share with fellow providers, maybe some tips or tricks or strategies that in face of all of those known barriers, how can they help patients take a more active role in managing their MPN? And we’ll start with you this time, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

All right, so one thing I would say is that here’s why I really think there’s a benefit to seeing an MPN expert that is at a national cancer center, academic center. I do think there is some more time allotted to those visits, especially the consults and first appointments for the patient, and we kind of start this with my doctor and other providers of assessing how much does the patient even know to begin with? So that can direct us where to start. And then how deep do they want to go. You know sometimes we have patients that they want to get down to the nitty-gritty and know all the scientific details, and other ones are like, Just lay it out for me easy. So really like assessing that from the beginning and then…so then start educating. Just like I said before, what does the disease look like, the symptoms, the treatment, alleviating symptoms, explaining that this is only cured by transplant. I think that’s really important to discuss right up front, and if they start treatment, usually treatment is indefinite. Of course, it’s changed depending on things, but educating them, so spending that time and then providing resources.

So we do this a lot by…I write a lot of things down for my patients when I see them, I think visuals are really helpful, provide literature, I tell them what websites to visit. A lot of times, they just will Google their doctor, which is great because they can find them and listen to their own lectures, and they really learn a lot. So just guiding them to those resources. I do think it’s important, too, to give them something like the total symptom score form. Just having that visual of, these are what is common, and then they can think about that between visits, but I think all of those things really help to educate them and get them involved.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, thank you for that, Ms. Johnson. What about you, Dr. Hobbs? Do you have any additional strategies that really help to empower patients to manage their care? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I think everything that Ms. Johnson said was spot on, and I agree with everything that she said. A few additional things that I would add to that is reminding a patient that they don’t need to remember every single thing we talk about at every single encounter, this is an ongoing conversation and decision-making will happen over time, especially when we’re trying to make more difficult decisions about when or if they have to go to transplant, for example. Sometimes I have a conversation with my patients for years before they actually get a transplant. Other things that I think are helpful strategies is reminding patients that they can be in touch.

Nowadays, we have so many different ways of keeping in touch with our patients, they know how to call our practice nurses in our clinic, how to get in touch with the nurse practitioner that I work with the most, how to get in touch with me through the patient portal. And so, knowing that when that visit finishes, which sometimes does feel short, even if…like Ms. Johnson said, we do have the luxury of time more in academic centers, they’re still…the patients will invariably get out of the room, get in their car and be like, “Oh, I forgot to ask that one question.” And so reminding them that they can get in touch, and then helping them to prepare for their next visits to make the most out of those visits, especially for some of those patients that maybe don’t always necessarily come back to see me.

There are some patients that live far away, and then they maybe see me infrequently, talking to them about the symptom assessment form, like Ms. Johnson said, pointing them to the right direction in terms of literature and reminding them that, especially for those patients that are very symptomatic, for example, keeping track of their symptoms over time, writing down notes about how they felt, what they think made something better, made something worse, how they’re responding to these medications, questions that they may have, and writing all of that down helps them be more empowered patients. They can advocate for themselves in a more organized way when they do go see either me or another clinician. So they come in fully prepared with the information and the questions that they want to get out of that visit.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Perfect, thank you both. That’s really important. And so this leads nicely into our next topic, both of you have mentioned the importance of tracking symptoms, and so we want to shift and talk about strategies for managing disease burden, and I’d love to hear from each of you about what are your recommendations as you speak to MPN patients and their care partners about symptoms? How should other providers bring up those conversations and what are the best ways to really elucidate the symptoms that patients with MPN are having? So I’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So this may sound obvious, but the first way of figuring out what symptoms a patient has is by asking, and it’s so interesting, right? There have been studies comparing what symptoms are most important to patients and what symptoms clinicians think the patients have. And guess what, the clinicians don’t actually know which symptoms the patient has, or which symptoms are most important to the patient, and…so anyway, it sounds obvious, but it sometimes isn’t, and I think clinicians are busy and sometimes feel like having a tool to ask those questions is maybe too burdensome. I personally find that the MPN symptom assessment form is a quick form, it’s easy to complete, it can be given to a patient, there’s a piece of paper while they’re waiting for you.

And that also directs the conversation because it really just gives numbers, makes it objective, and then can really start that conversation. And so remembering that we do have this tool, it actually can help cut down time to the visit and make it more focused, and it’s helpful to…empowers the patient and make sure that you really are asking about all of those symptoms, and just making sure that you don’t just assume that a patient has or doesn’t have a symptom, but really saying, “Are there any other symptoms that you’ve noticed?” I’m trying to be really thorough because, honestly, MPN symptoms can manifest in so many different ways for our patients in addition to those 10 symptoms that are asked in the MPN symptom assessment form, and so trying to be thorough about those symptoms, I think, really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

And thank you for that and for highlighting sometimes this disconnect between the patients and the clinicians, and also the fact that what’s important to us may not be as important to the patient, and what’s important to the patient may get overlooked by us, and so again, it’s always going back to centering the patient and their experiences. Do you have anything to add, Ms. Johnson, with regard to talking to patients about their symptoms? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes, I had to just laugh in on my head with what Dr. Hobbs said, because it’s so true. With MPNs, numbers are a big deal in this world, and we can see a patient and just look at their numbers and think, “They look good,” and then you see them and they’re like, “I feel horrible.” And it just doesn’t relate. And so I agree with what she said, really going over what are the common symptoms and then thinking about, if they’re on treatment, is this like a medication side effect or is this a disease-related symptom, and then thinking just about comorbidity. So often our patients can have CHF or pulmonary hypertension that’s contributing to their symptoms, and so discussing that and trying to get those things managed.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome, Dr. Hobbs, did you have something you wanted to add? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Yeah. You know what I was thinking, we also have obviously very different personalities for our patients, of course, in addition for our clinicians, and there are sometimes patients that are very vocal, will come in and share every single symptom, and then we have some stoic patients that never complain, but for those patients, it’s very helpful to turn around and look at the spouse. And so you’ll ask the patient, “Are you tired?” “No, I’m fine.” “Are you whatever?” “No, everything’s okay,” and then the spouse is like, “But remember, you really haven’t been having your dinner, and remember how you were complaining about how your stomach was hurting every time you ate. And you say you’re not itchy, but every night when we’re watching TV, I turn around and I see that you’re scratching.” And so I think that’s also a really important tool to make sure that you make use of the family members, because they really know what’s going on if the patient is not willing to share as much or doesn’t like to complain. [chuckle]

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Oh, Dr. Hobbs, you are reminding me of my former caregiving experience. There were so many occasions where my dad, who did not have MPN by the way, but my dad would…he was that stoic person who would downplay everything, even though the entire car ride to the doctor’s office, he had been complaining, [chuckle] but in front of the doctor he was always fine.

Gabriela  Hobbs, MD:

Everything is fine.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Yeah, I was the care partner that was like, “But what about what you said 5 minutes ago?” So I appreciate you sharing that. We cannot overemphasize the importance of engaging with those incredible care partners. So you all both mentioned there are a lot of symptoms and those symptoms can really have an impact on patients and on their families, their care partners, what specific strategies can other providers use to explain how to minimize the disease impact of MPN? And I’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson.

Natasha Johnson:

Okay, so the number one symptom I hear is fatigue, and it has nothing really to do with hemoglobin, whether it’s normal or not. It’s so many factors that go into the disease, that cause it, and then also considering comorbidity, so I really try to encourage patients to be as active as possible. And we’ve seen with some of our solid tumors and studies that have been done when fatigue’s an issue, activity or physical exercise really seems to be the best way to combat that.

And I really try to encourage them. “Once you stop doing something and you sit down, it’s going to be hard to get back up and do it again. So pace yourself and do what you can.” But that is a big encouragement that I give. And then a second one I would say is diet. There’s been some new interest in looking at the Mediterranean diet, and that it has a possible benefit in reducing symptom burden in patients, so I think that’s something we can continue to look into, but it certainly can’t hurt a patient, especially when you look at cardiovascular risk factor, so just encouraging healthy diet. But I’m also a great advocate for, if they can eat, I want them to enjoy life and eat, too. So I go back and forth a little bit on that depending on the patient. And then just lastly, I really do encourage them to live, you know, live each day, continue living, and I have some patients that play pickleball several times a week and can be really active and enjoy that, and some, it’s just maybe having their neighbors over to play cards once a week, and that’s okay. Or their family, or their church community. Just an encouragement that if they’re living and trying to have healthy habits, I really think it can improve symptom burden.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Dr. Hobbs, are there any non-pharmacologic strategies that you endorse? And I’m asking you specifically because I think a lot of times, patients and care partners think that physicians aren’t well-versed in non-pharmacologic therapies or that we don’t endorse non-pharmacologic therapy. So I’m curious to know if there are any that you tend to recommend to your patients with MPNs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:  

I love this question, and I’m glad to have an opportunity to talk about it, and I loved everything that Ms. Johnson said. For many years, I’ve felt in my practice like I’m a primary care doctor, and I’m talking to patients about diet and exercise, [chuckle] especially for the patients that have essential thrombocythemia and polycythemia vera or low-risk myelofibrosis, those diseases really are diseases that I think about as another cardiovascular risk factor. And when we’re talking to patients that have cardiovascular risk factors, like obesity, like hypertension, like hyperlipidemia, diabetes, etcetera, what do we talk to them about? We talk about lifestyle modification. And I think that that fits in beautifully in the care of a patient with an MPN because there’s nothing like getting a diagnosis to take away control from your life. And so giving patients control back by saying, “Actually, you do have control over this disease by changing your lifestyle, by living an active healthy lifestyle and having a well-balanced diet,” I think can actually be very helpful.

One of the things that we don’t talk a lot about in MPNs, ’cause we’re focused on cell signaling and new fancy medications, is just the basics, lifestyle modification. And so I’m a huge fan of that holistic approach. I loved what Ms. Johnson said about, “Don’t let yourself be defined by this disease.” Let’s really find a way of improving your quality of life and maximizing how you live your days. And so I think talking to them about lifestyle modification is something that is really near and dear to my heart. We have a clinical trial now helping patients to really change their lifestyle, get more active and eat more healthily, and I think that those things are actually really, really important. Many of my patients, the first thing they do when they get diagnosed is they want to go and find that magical supplement that’s going to change their natural history of their disease. And although I can’t really say if any of those supplements are going to be helpful or not, I can for sure say that there is no harm, and there’s probably benefit to staying active and also to having a more plant-based, less processed food diet. And I think that that really goes a long way in terms of helping patients to improve their symptoms, feel less tired and feel less anxious, also feel like they have more control over what’s going on with them.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Wonderful. That’s great to hear. So I wanted to shift again and start to talk about specifically disease progression. And we know that that is, unfortunately, something that is an important element of MPNs. And so as we talk to fellow MPN specialists, what are you all’s recommendations for how they can best explain disease progression to patients? Are there any specific languaging or specific tactics that you all use, and even things that maybe you shouldn’t say as you are sharing information about disease progression? Either one of you, feel free to go first.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

So disease progression, I think is a really challenging topic, because on the one hand, I think it’s really important to educate patients. It’s really important for patients to know that that is a possibility, that it is something that can happen. It’s really challenging to have a patient that has lived with this disease for a long time, hardly even knows the name of that disease. Maybe they were seen elsewhere, etcetera, and then all of a sudden, something’s going wrong and they just weren’t prepared for that. But I feel like that really does need to be balanced by the fact that, thankfully, progression happens infrequently. And so you also…going back to what we were saying before, you want to help a patient to be able to live well with these diseases and not be defined by those diseases. And so one of the things that I try to do with patients is, especially during that initial visit, I spend some time explaining to them what the disease is, that it can progress to myelofibrosis, that it can progress to leukemia. But then I also try to reassure them as much as possible that this is an infrequent event, that the reason why we follow patients in-clinic is so that we can start to notice if there’s disease progression, that it usually happens gradually.

And then I try to say, “You have this information. We can’t necessarily change that at this moment, there are maybe some tools that we can use in the future, but try to put that information in a box in your brain, put the key, put it away, try not to think about that every day when you’re outside of here. Definitely okay to open that back up when you’re with me in the room. If you want to get those anxieties out, that’s fine, but let’s really try to make sure that that’s in the back and not at the forefront of our thoughts.” And kind of going back to one of the things we were discussing before about what the patient thinks is most important, what the clinician thinks is most important. If you ask patients what are they most concerned about with their MPN, oftentimes that response is, “Is my disease going to progress?” And so I think acknowledging that and talking about that is important, but then also reminding patients that over time, they need to, hopefully with your help, or maybe they need additional assistance with therapists or social workers, etcetera, let’s find a way to put that away so that it’s not really at the forefront of our thoughts every single day, because that also ends up being not productive.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

I love that approach, of providing the education, but also that balance that you talked about, Dr. Hobbs. I love the idea of putting it away, putting it in a box [chuckle] and locking it, and then opening it back up when you’re in the safety with your healthcare provider. That’s beautiful.

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Johnson? 

Natasha Johnson:

I completely agree. Your example there of putting it in the box, I’m going to use that in clinic. [laughter] I think it’s a great visual for patients. Because like you said, they’re very scared, and it can control them and take over, and we don’t want the disease to take over their life. Still live. Enjoy. 

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. So as we start to wrap up, we definitely want to address the role of advanced practice clinicians. We’re honored to have Ms. Johnson here with us, a nurse practitioner. And you mentioned earlier, Dr. Hobbs, that you work very closely with the nurse practitioner, so I’d love for you to share, Dr. Hobbs, the importance, in your professional opinion, of the role of advanced practice clinicians in MPN care. And how can fellow providers best leverage and utilize advanced practice clinicians? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that Ms. Johnson is here with us. And I am thinking about Judy, the nurse practitioner that I work with the most. And honestly, without her and without the NPs that work in our clinic, I’m pretty sure that our clinic would fall apart, [chuckle] so I don’t have enough important…I really don’t have enough good things to say about the NPs or the advanced practice providers. They really play a huge role in the care of our patients and in so many different ways. I think sometimes a patient will feel more comfortable sharing some things either with the practice nurses or with the nurse practitioners. Sometimes having just a different perspective from another clinician is so helpful for the patient. Sometimes even if the two of us are communicating similar information, just to hear it slightly differently in another perspective can be really so helpful. Another thing that I think is also really essential about having that team approach is that when I’m away, if I’m on the inpatient service or Judy is away, [chuckle] the patients always know who they’re going to see when they come to the clinic. There’s that great continuity of care. And so I think the fact that there are two of us taking care of a patient as opposed to just me ends up really being very, very helpful for the patients, because they know that when they come to see us, they’re going to see somebody that really knows them longitudinally. And so two is better than one, honestly.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Two, absolutely better than one. And Ms. Johnson, how would you describe your role? Or maybe is there one example of how you partner with physicians and other members of the team, or maybe something that stands out for you that you’d like to share with the audience? 

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. So I work with two main physicians, and one of them is a MPN expert. And so he sees them in their consult initial visit. And then oftentimes, they’re following up with me for those more frequent visits. Our physicians are performing research, they’re teaching, so they’re not in clinic as many days a week as, like I am. And so I do see him more often and really get to know them. But I communicate with my physician almost on a daily basis. And because our relationship has grown, I think that he’s come to trust me to know that I can pick up on…when I’m concerned about disease progression, I know that I can go to him and talk to him, and he’s there. And then he also helps me to make…or he also trusts me to make more minor treatment decisions. But when things are a big deal, I call on him, and he’s there. Oftentimes, if the patient come in and we did not expect this and it’s obvious they’ve progressed, he’ll come into the room with me, and I really believe that makes the patient so much more comfortable. They enjoy seeing me. And we have a good relationship, but it’s different when it’s coming from your physician. And so yeah, we work really close, we communicate regularly. I try to ensure the patients of that. But I do develop very close relationships with patients, because I’m seeing them more routinely and more often.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

That makes perfect sense. It takes a team, right? I mean, we talk about healthcare teams, and that’s really what you all are describing, is teamwork in action. Lastly, I want to wrap up by talking about cultural humility. You all have spoken so eloquently about the importance of developing true, genuine relationships with patients and their care partners and valuing what’s important to them and bringing them into the shared decision-making. And we also know that our patients come with their own unique racial and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and that sometimes, unfortunately in healthcare, we don’t take those things into consideration. So when we talk about cultural humility, we’re really talking about acknowledging a patient’s full, authentic self, their full, lived experiences, and also acknowledging our own biases that we bring to the table, listening to our patients and having that interest and that curiosity. So I’d love for you to either share an example of when you or a fellow provider were able to show cultural humility in action, or maybe a specific tip for the providers that are watching this program about how to truly incorporate cultural humility into your practice. We’ll start with you, Dr. Hobbs.

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

I love that question. And I think this is something that is a lifelong process for all of us, and I think it starts with awareness, really just recognizing that you bring your own background and bias into every encounter. And that’s okay. So I think sometimes we want to feel like we’re color blind and culture blind and that we see everything the same. But we have our own biases. And one example for me where that’s always true is, I’m a physician, but I’m also an investigator, and so, obviously, I have a bias towards research. For me, it’s obvious, yeah, of course, I’m wanting to participate in a clinical trial.

And I think you have to be aware of the fact that clinical trials come with all sorts of different opinions from patients, patients don’t like to be guinea pigs, there is mistrust, there’s all sorts of history in [chuckle] this country, especially about clinical trials. And I think coming into those encounters, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, taking into account that you really do know your patient. But sometimes, you don’t know the patient as well. You’re getting to know them, and you need to make a decision. Just listening, being humble, being aware, trying to understand where the patient is coming from, I think sometimes, especially when you’re trying to make a decision quickly and you find that there’s some friction, I think taking some time to say, “Alright, where is that coming from?” And perhaps I’m coming across too strong with this recommendation to do this clinical trial and there’s maybe something that I need to explore, and so just keeping an open mind and trying to just ask questions, “Where are you coming from? What’s important to you? Why are you hesitating? Or is there something that I can explain in a different way?” And really trying to get the whole picture of who that patient is and where they’re coming from. I think that’s probably a really important one.

Another example and I’ll let Ms. Johnson talk. 

It comes often in my practice, I speak Spanish and I realize the moment that I switch languages, for example, with a patient, the whole conversation can change. And so in some instances, I have the ability to truly get into that cultural mindset very well because it’s a culture that I’m very familiar, and so you can break those barriers more easily. But then there’s some other situations, or maybe a culture that I’m not as familiar with and I don’t speak the language, or I don’t speak to culture, and you need to keep that in mind and realize, “Okay, here, I don’t know exactly all the same custom,” so I need to take a step back, be humble and just ask a lot of questions, and just acknowledge that, and that’s okay.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. What about you, Ms. Johnson? Any examples or anything you want to reflect on regarding cultural humility.

Natasha Johnson:

Yes. When I think about this, I know that I have to go in prepared and be aware, so like educating myself on how does MPN affect this specific population, and with this culture, what are their values that they hold? And so when I’m going in to see the patient, just like Dr. Hobbs said, listening, being respectful, watching my body language, discussing all treatment options. And just two quick examples I can think about is, one, I’ve had a patient due to religious beliefs can’t take transfusions. And so a lot of times anemia is a big deal in our situation, and so really being creative with the treatments to not really worsen that and be okay with it. And you’d really be surprised how a patient can go around with a hemoglobin of like 5 and live normally when their body gets used to it. But I remember just that patient very well and having to respect that and understand it. And then the second is, I’ve had patients progress and they need to go to transplant or we need to do a bone marrow biopsy to really see where the disease is at right now. And in my mind, I think, “You’re fit. You feel good, like pushing these things,” and I have to step back and look at the patient and listen to the patient. And they’re telling me, “Right now for this, this or this reason, I don’t want to do this. And my priorities are over here.” And just really respecting the patient and still taking 100 percent great care of them through all that.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I really appreciate you all’s insight, your expertise. It’s time to wrap up. And you all have said a lot. You’ve talked about the importance of addressing symptoms, you’ve talked about getting to know patients and their care partners, you talked about the idea of centering our patients and their care partners and making sure that we understand their values, we’ve talked about disease progression, we’ve talked about holistic care and cultural humility. Do you have any closing thoughts, any one last thing that you want to leave with the audience as we wrap up this amazing program? We’ll start with you, Ms. Johnson. Any closing thoughts? 

Natasha Johnson:

I think of three things, assessing, educating and providing. So assessing your patient by listening, really getting to know them, seeing what they understand, educate them. Not to put fear in them, but to educate them so that they are well-empowered on their disease and how we’re going to move forward. And then providing them with resources regarding treatment with ways to alleviate symptoms so they can further their knowledge as well. So that way overall, we are aiming our goal to improve their quality of life and their overall survival.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Awesome. Thank you for that. And what about you, Dr. Hobbs? Any closing thoughts? 

Gabriela Hobbs, MD:

Hard to say anything better than what Ms. Johnson just said, [laughter] But the only thing I’ll add, which I think is really in the same message, is to remember that there’s a ton of hope, and I think our patients are nervous and they’re worried about this disease, but this field is changing rapidly there’s so many clinical trials in this space and new medications that are likely to be approved. That I think it’s important to remind patients that even though right at this moment, you know, the only curative treatment is a bone marrow transplant for those patients with myelofibrosis, I really do feel very optimistic that there’s going to be a lot of different treatments in the next couple of years that are going to be available for them. And so education is critical, and leaving those patients with hope at the end of each encounter is something that’s also really important.

Nicole Rochester, MD:

Well, I love that we’re ending the program with a message of hope. Thank you so much, Dr. Hobbs, Ms. Johnson, thank you for your time and thank you to all of you for tuning into this Empowering Providers to Empower Patients program. Have an amazing day.

PODCAST: What Do You Need to Know About Emerging Endometrial Cancer Research?

/in , , , , , , , /by

 

Endometrial cancer treatment and research is evolving quickly. Dr. Emily Ko provides an update on new and emerging approaches, explains how these therapies work to treat endometrial cancer, and shares tips for partnering with your team on key decisions.
 
Dr. Emily Ko is a gynecologic oncologist and Associate Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the University of Pennsylvania. Learn more about Dr. Ko.

See More from Evolve Endometrial Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello, and welcome. I’m your host, Katherine Banwell. Today’s program focuses on helping patients with endometrial cancer learn more about evolving research and treatments. We’re also going to discuss how patients can collaborate with their team on care decisions. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to program materials. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar. 

At the end of the program, you’ll receive a link to a program survey. Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars. And finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining us is Dr. Emily Ko. Dr. Ko, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Ko:

Surely. Thank you so much. My name is Dr. Emily Ko, and I am a gynecologic oncologist. Currently, I’m an associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and as part of my daily work, I see patients, I provide surgical and medical treatments for gynecologic cancers, and I also am a researcher involved particularly in endometrial cancer. 

Katherine:

Thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to join us today. 

Dr. Ko:

Thank you. 

Katherine:

Well, let’s start by learning about the latest research news. Just this June, endometrial cancer researchers from around the world met to discuss their findings at the annual American Society of Clinical Oncology meeting, or ASCO, in Chicago. Can you walk us through the highlights that patients should know about? 

Dr. Ko:

Sure. So, the ASCO meeting is a very big meeting that happens once a year in June, and really, it is a national – actually, international – meeting where the biggest breakthroughs in cancer therapy are really presented and discussed. 

So, within the field of gynecologic cancer and specifically endometrial cancer, we really saw a couple breakthrough clinical trial results, if you will. The two specific trials that have hit the spotlight – and, it was presented at ASCO; they were also previously presented at the Society of Gynecologic Oncology annual meeting in March of 2023. These two trials – one of them is called GY018, and the other one is called RUBY, and these two trials specifically were geared at patients with endometrial cancer of either advanced stage, meaning stage III or IV at diagnosis, or patients who have recurrent endometrial cancer.  

And, these both trials were very large, multisite, international trials enrolling a huge number of patients. They were randomized controlled trials, meaning that they were specifically testing what we call a standard therapy, Taxol-carboplatin, versus a standard therapy plus a newer agent, and that newer agent falls in the realm of an immunotherapy drug. 

So, with this kind of novel approach, where we’re combining standardly used chemotherapy plus a newer immunotherapy drug, the question was if you did this combination, would patients have a better outcome? And, in fact, the groundbreaking news was that yes, patients did have a better outcome with this new combination of therapy, and this was shown in various forms of results. 

One of the primary outcomes is always something called survival, and with the GY018, they looked at progression-free survival as a primary outcome, and it did show that patients on this new combination did better with progression-free survival. And the difference was about median of about three months. Now, that may not sound like a whole lot. However, in the realm of cancer therapy, when you take a very large group of patients, that was a meaningful difference that was statistically significant. 

And furthermore, as we’re moving forward with our therapy drugs, we are moving into this era of targeted therapy, precision medicine, where we’re really trying to hone into more the specifics of the biology of each person’s cancer, and not treating everyone the same. 

What’s interesting with these two trials is when they looked at different subpopulations of patients with advanced or recurrent endometrial cancer, whether they had a type of endometrial cancer that was considered MSI-high, or a microsatellite instable type of cancer, which basically refers to a certain biology of these endometrial cancers, it has to deal with how the cells – the cancer cells – behave, how they’re able to not follow the rules and be able to replicate themselves. 

The patients who are MSI-high particularly had a really great response with this chemotherapy, so it was even beyond just a three-month difference. With that being said, even in patients who are what we call microsatellite-stable, who didn’t have this unique signature, they still saw a benefit with this novel combination, and to add to that, the nice thing about it is the toxicities were not bad. Even this new combination was very well-tolerated. 

It was not a high rate of severe toxicities or side effects, if you will, and that actually, the great majority of patients were able to stay on this therapy and really get through – complete the therapy course. 

So, there are some sort of nuanced differences between the two trials I mentioned, GY018 versus the RUBY. And some of those details are with regards to the even specific subtype of endometrial cancer, which we haven’t talked about yet, for example, uterine carcinosarcoma versus uterine serous carcinoma, uterine clear cell, uterine endometrioid – these are all specific subtypes of endometrial cancer. So there are some nuances where the RUBY trial was able to include patients with uterine carcinosarcoma, whereas the GY018 did not. 

But suffice it to say, now we have enough data that virtually all endometrial cancer patients with advanced stage, regardless of what histology, there is essentially a trial that can apply to you where it demonstrated this added benefit to doing this novel combination, and that was found with microsatellite-stable patients as well as microsatellite-instable in both randomized controlled trials that I mentioned. 

Katherine:

Such exciting news! That’s great! Well, beyond ASCO, Dr. Ko, are there other research or treatment advances that patients should know about?  

Dr. Ko:

Certainly. Like I mentioned, we’re really moving towards the realm of treating with a targeted therapy approach, and within endometrial cancer, the prior paradigm was much simpler, but really not in the space of target therapy. So, for example, what does that mean? 

So, as we’re realizing that there are very unique biologic signatures to different patients’ endometrial cancer – there could be, for example, some cancers that are particularly receptive to hormonal therapy, meaning their specific cancer, when we send it for detailed – we call it genomic or somatic testing, we can discover, oh, they have estrogen-receptor-positive, progesterone-receptor-positive, and so, those type of cancers may be very responsive to hormonal-based therapy, and in that space, we have a standard available drugs, but we also have clinical trials that are trying newer drugs. 

If, for example, the standard aromatase inhibitor or the standard progesterone agent may be helpful, but there are even more in that space that this point – CDK inhibitors that you can combine with these aromatase inhibitors or hormonal agents that have been around for longer that have shown a lot of promise, a lot of data in breast cancer. But now we’re realizing, wow, there could be some efficacy in endometrial cancer as well, so that’s just one example. 

And there’s other unique biologic gene signatures, again, kind of a good list now out there, that are being studied in various clinical trials, whether they’re PARP inhibitors, whether they’re drugs that target CCNE1, whether they’re drugs that target ARID1A, so there are actually many more that are available. So, they’re really expanding the opportunity for treatment for endometrial cancer patients. 

Katherine:

Well, you just mentioned clinical trials, and I think it’s a good topic to cover a little bit. Why is it important for patients to actually consider enrolling? What are the benefits for them? 

Dr. Ko:

Sure.

So, while we certainly have a good armamentarium of standard-of-care therapies already, and I should mention that does include our classic chemotherapy drugs like paclitaxel (Abraxane), carboplatin (Paraplatin), and even doxorubicin (Adriamycin), if you will, or doxorubicin Hcl (Doxil), there are the immunotherapy drugs now that have become standard of care as well, like pembrolizumab (Keytruda), but sometimes, despite using those best available drugs, the cancer unfortunately either continues to grow or you had a good response, but somehow it shows up again – the cancer shows up again – and so, then, we’re looking for additional opportunities, additional therapies. 

And so, some of the best opportunities are actually to consider these clinical trials. The way that clinical trials are designed is that they always are going  to provide you at least a backbone of a standard available therapy, so you’re never going to get less than what would be considered standard of care. 

But, what they’re doing is they’re usually partnering another drug – a more novel therapy – or they’re basically testing a more novel therapy that could be more targeted, that could potentially have better efficacy than what’s already available standardly. And so, the value of that is that you could have an opportunity to have a therapy that could work even better.  

When you’ve tried something already, unfortunately, the cancer has grown, there is still opportunity, and while you’re on a clinical trial, I think one of the huge benefits is it’s very regulated. You are monitored so closely because at the base of all of this is safety. There is never going to be a drug or therapy that’s going to be administered to a patient without ensuring that there’s absolute safety for that patient, and so, that’s a way that you really have opportunity to get more treatment that could really help your cancer condition and do it in a very, very safe, formal fashion. 

Katherine:

And ultimately help others as well, in the future.  

Dr. Ko:

Exactly, absolutely, because as you’re participating in this process – and, of course, it’s a voluntary process to participate on a clinical trial, so we so appreciate all the patients who, in the past, have participated and are willing to participate in the future, but allows us also to really gather a lot of information to really inform cancer treatment for all the patients coming down the road, and those could be anyone. They could be our neighbors, our friends, our own family members, and that could really be so helpful to everyone that’s going through this type of thing. 

Katherine:

Absolutely, yeah. I’d like to back up a bit and talk about what endometrial cancer is. It’s often referred to as uterine cancer. So, are they the same thing? Are these terms interchangeable? 

Dr. Ko:

Sure, it’s a great question. So, endometrial cancer refers to cancer that starts in what I call the lining of the uterine cavity. So, inside the uterus, there’s a uterine cavity, and there’s a tissue that coats that cavity, and that’s called the endometrium. So, endometrial cancer is basically when cancer cells start growing from that tissue. And, of course, since that exists in the uterus, of course, it’s considered uterine cancer, and we’re just being a little bit more specific when we say endometrial cancer. But, of course, endometrial cancer is the most common form of uterine cancer by far, so in some ways, it’s almost – it’s synonymous.  

Katherine:

How is endometrial cancer staged? 

Dr. Ko:

So, the most classic, rigorous way to stage endometrial cancer is through a surgical procedure. So, what that usually involves is it does include a hysterectomy, removing the uterus and the cervix, usually also includes removing the fallopian tubes and the ovaries. 

And, at the same time, the surgeon will do a very thorough assessment of the abdominal pelvic cavity, basically looking around all those areas to see if there’s any signs of visible disease, anything they can see that looks like it could be tumor deposits in the abdominal cavity. If anything is seen, those deposits will be removed and biopsied, so that’s part of the staging procedure. 

And additionally, it’s important to try to assess the lymph nodes, typically. So, there are lymph nodes in the pelvic area, and then, higher up along the aortic area, and so, there are different surgical techniques that we can use to basically test or sample some of those lymph nodes, be able to remove them, send them to the pathologist, look under the microscope to see if there are any microscopic cancer cells that have traveled to those lymph nodes. 

So, that is all part of a surgical procedure, and with all the information collected from those tissue samples that are removed from the body and sent to the pathologist, but the pathologist then reviews all of that under a microscope, and then can issue a very thorough report describing where the cancer cells are located, and by definition, where the cancer cells are located then defines what the stage is of the cancer. 

Katherine:

Can you give me an example? 

Dr. Ko:

Of course. So, for example, if the cancer cells are located only in the uterus, and they’re not found anywhere else, then that is a stage I. If the cancer cells have traveled to the cervix area specifically, this we call a cervical stroma, that becomes a stage II. If the cancer cells have, for example, traveled to the fallopian tubes, or the ovaries, or the lymph nodes, then that becomes a stage III, and there are sort of substages within those categories as well. 

Katherine:

But stage III would be the highest or most severe? 

Dr. Ko:

So, there’s stage III, and then there’s actually stage IV. So, if the cancer cells have traveled outside of the pelvis into the abdominal area, then we consider that a stage IV. 

Katherine:

And that would be considered advanced endometrial cancer? 

Dr. Ko:

Right. So, by definition, “advanced” typically refers to stage III or IV. 

Katherine:

I see, okay. Now that we understand more about the disease itself, I’d like to talk about the treatments that are currently available. You mentioned chemotherapy, but what else is available for people? 

Dr. Ko:

Absolutely. So, treatment for endometrial cancer is usually some combination of surgery, and then it may be followed by possibly chemotherapy, as well as radiation, and sometimes, it may be a combination of all three treatments, or sometimes, it’s a combination of one or two of those, depending on the exact stage, depending on the exact cell type, and some of the other factors. 

Katherine:

Are hormonal therapies used as well, and targeted therapies? 

Dr. Ko:

Yes. 

Katherine:

I know they are in other cancers. 

Dr. Ko:

Yes. And so, I think the question is where do those come into play? So, I would say the usual algorithm most commonly would be that surgery is done first, as the most common first step, and then, based on the information obtained from surgery and the pathology report that comes from that, then there’s usually some type of a recommendation about should there be a second stepped treatment, and that frequently can be chemotherapy/radiation.  

Now, the areas where targeted therapy – for example, immunotherapy – where does that come in? So, that now has come into the – I would call it the second stage. We’re combining it with the classic chemotherapy drugs – Taxol-carboplatin, for example. That’s one example where it could come into play. Another example could come into play where a patient had gone through classic Taxol/paclitaxel and carboplatin, then had cancer come back, and so, that could be another instance where that pembrolizumab or pembro with lenvatinib (Lenvima) combination can be used in the setting of recurrence. 

Now, we could also say, hey, if your cancer type has those hormonal receptors present or is some type of what we call endometrioid histology, and we think that hormonal therapy may be more effective in that case, then that could also be used in a setting where the cancer has kind of grown again, the cancer has grown back, or actually, there are certain situations where patients, for example, may not undergo a hysterectomy. 

And, there are unique cases and those situations where patients are still trying to preserve their fertility, and therefore not wanting to undergo a hysterectomy, or they’re unable to undergo surgery safely. And so, in some unique situations, we may also use hormonal therapy as the mechanism to treat their cancer, and whether that is by way of a pill, whether that is by way of a progesterone intrauterine device, IUD, that is placed into the uterus, we also have situations where we tailor the therapy to the condition of the patient. 

Katherine:

How are patients monitored for a recurrence, and are there approaches to help prevent a recurrence? 

Dr. Ko:

Sure, absolutely. Great question. It is important to continue monitoring patients, even after they’ve gone through treatment. So, I think of it as a multifaceted approach. Usually, it includes office visits, including a physical exam. It includes a thorough intake of all of their symptoms. 

It also includes – depending on the scenario – in some circumstances, regular imaging studies, such as a CT scan or MRI, and sometimes, we also do things like PET scans, and I think that does have to be tailored to the unique patient’s endometrial cancer, unique case, stage, histology, and we kind of tailor which tests we choose to do. The interval of monitoring can vary, so I would say generally speaking, it could be anywhere from three- to six-month visits, and with potentially added scans, as we talked about, and sometimes, we also do certain blood tests in certain cases where we may choose to follow a CA125 blood tumor marker. 

But, I would say that there are different, definitely variants to how we choose to monitor, and there are certain resources we tend to use, such as the NCCN guidelines that providers may reference, and sometimes may even share with the patients to explain why and how we choose to do the monitoring. 

Katherine:

When treating more advanced endometrial cancer disease in general, are the treatment options different than if you were treating somebody who had stage I or stage II, for instance? 

Dr. Ko:

Sure, great question. So, for some patients with, say, stage I, surgery alone is enough. 

For some other patients, subcategories of stage I, where we call them more high/intermediate-risk patients, they’re stage I, but there are a few features about their pathology that might make them slightly higher risk for recurrence – in those cases, we might consider a little bit of radiation after surgery, what we call adjuvant radiation or what we call radiation vaginal brachytherapy. Just three short treatments of a little bit of radiation to the top of the vagina has been shown to possibly decrease chance of recurrence in that area with very minimal side effects. 

So, that would be more commonly in line with stage I. There are some subtypes that can still be what we call high-risk, even in stage I/stage II uterine serous carcinoma, uterine carcinosarcoma. In those cases, we might also recommend chemotherapy along with some vaginal brachytherapy following their hysterectomy, so that’s the early stage. 

And then, with the advanced stage, yes. So, frequently, it’d be surgery first to secure the diagnosis, followed by some type of – it might be primarily chemotherapy, or it could be combination chemotherapy with radiation. And over time, I would say our paradigm for what we use for chemotherapy and radiation has changed a little bit. 

If you go back a couple decades, I think radiation was used a lot – whole pelvic radiation, even just without any chemotherapy. And then, we then had more data from research clinical trials, GOG-258 or PORTEC-3, that then had given us evidence that perhaps doing chemotherapy with some combination of radiation is going to be beneficial, or even moving towards primarily radiation could be a very good option in terms of long-term benefit/long-term survival. 

And, of course, that brings us to the present day, those two trials that I mentioned from ASCO, the GY018 and the RUBY, now bringing in the immunotherapy component to the chemotherapy, so there has definitely been an evolution to managing advanced stage. 

Katherine:

Yes. Dr. Ko, what goes into determining a treatment approach for an individual patient? Is there key testing that helps guide a patient’s prognosis and treatment options? 

Dr. Ko:

Absolutely. So, I think the key pieces of information come from several sources. First, we do take the whole patient into account, like baseline health, baseline function, meaning every day, how active are you? Are there limitations to your daily activities? Looking at baseline health conditions, what we call comorbidities. Are there other health conditions, like diabetes, heart conditions, lung condition, kidney conditions, that could really impact a patient’s overall health and wellbeing? That is always part of it, number one. 

Then, we look specific to the cancer details. So, from all the pathology information, biopsies, followed by a surgical staging procedure, what exact stage, what exact substage, and we might even look at other unique features. Was there cells that got into the lymph vessels, the lymph nodes? Are there other just features from a pathology standpoint that are important, like the – I talked about microsatellite status, microsatellite instable versus microsatellite stable. 

Those are all information we can gather from the tumor tissue itself. That then kind of tailors our therapy. And then, like I was saying, now we’re going into this molecular era where we can actually take that tumor tissue and even do more expanded testing on it. 

So, I think it’s worthwhile to talk to your provider and say, “Hey, would it be worthwhile to send my tumor out for expanded testing, whether it’s done at your institution, at a specialized lab, or whether it’s sent out to a company that does expanded testing?” Because then, they might be able to test for 500 different genetic signatures, a much more broad panel, but that might open the door for opportunities to say, “Hey, you actually do have a very unique signature, and maybe it is worth tailoring your therapy even further.” 

So, I think these are very important questions to have with your provider, and these pieces of information can help guide the prognosis. I think we’re always asking what does this mean long-term, and I think when we have all these individual pieces of information, we can then give guidance on that.  

Katherine:

Well, that leads me into my next question. I wanted to get your point of view on why is it important for patients to engage in their care and their treatment decisions? 

Dr. Ko:

Right. I think that it is so important. Medical treatments, I think, do work the best for the patient when the patient is truly an active participant, and what I mean by that is I think we can really understand the patient if there’s a conversation, there’s a mutual discussion, and I think every patient has unique circumstances, has unique goals, has…whether it’s just the daily whatever responsibilities, or just either health or non-health concerns that they have, we want to be able to find a treatment that fits the patient, and we realize that one treatment doesn’t fit all. 

And so, the more, I think, that there is this mutual discussion, mutual understanding, then there’s a mutual decision treatment plan that is made, and there’s the more ability to modify that plan when – if you realize, oh, maybe we can tailor it, maybe we try one thing, and maybe we realize we got to change a little bit.  

And, I think that with a cancer condition, it is a journey. It is not just a one-time thing. It really is a journey, and I think that the more a patient can participate throughout that journey, I think the better the outcomes for the patient, and honestly, the better the treatment course will be for everyone participating. 

Katherine:

Why should a patient consider finding an endometrial cancer specialist? What are the benefits? 

Dr. Ko:

So, I think naturally, an endometrial cancer specialist is a provider who spends more time thinking about the disease, reading about it, looking at what’s the newest research studies that are coming out, what are the available clinical trials here, locally, regionally, or nationally, what are other support services available for the patient in the space. 

And, of course, probably the folks that do the most surgeries gear towards endometrial cancer patients, and so, I think just working in that space naturally then brings more resources and more opportunity for the patient to kind of really know what’s out there, what is the newest, and I think that really benefits the patient. 

Katherine:

Thank you for sharing all this information. I’d like to close with your thoughts on the future of endometrial cancer care. Are you hopeful? 

Dr. Ko:

Yes. I think that I’m especially hopeful, especially within these last even few years, of where our field is going. I want to say I think there’s so much more that needs to be done.  

I don’t think we’re ready to close the books on endometrial cancer. I think this is just a wonderful opening of a chapter where we’re seeing many more therapies come about. I do think that something that is concerning is that we are seeing more cases of endometrial cancer being diagnosed – yeah, so it is absolutely true. There is very robust data that is collected by our CDC and cancer registry in the country, and it is showing that there is actually a rising incidence, that the number of endometrial cancer cases in this country is actually increasing over time, and it has – 

Katherine:

Why is that? 

Dr. Ko:

It’s a great question. 

Katherine:

Nobody knows – the data doesn’t include that information? 

Dr. Ko:

I think there’s definitely some information, there is definitely information out there. I think some of it – and this is not all of it – I think some of it is related to the increase in obesity and the increase in average weight over time, and this metabolic condition to some degree, I think, does stimulate potential risk for endometrial cancer. 

However, that is not the only reason, and what is concerning is that what we’re seeing is there’s a specific rise in subtypes of endometrial cancer in certain populations, particularly the Black and Hispanic patient populations, and we’re seeing a rise in the most aggressive types of endometrial cancer in those patient populations. I think there’s a lot of research going on right now in that to try to understand why. Is it just because we’re picking it up more? I don’t think that’s the bottom line. 

And, I think what we’re also realizing as we’re studying these various tumor types of endometrial cancer, they are driven by different biology. So, I think to some extent, the ones that are more maybe related to obesity or hormones and all may be slightly different – not completely separate, but that there is underlying different genetic basis for some of these cancers developing, and whether that’s a combination of underlying genes, environment, exposure, or all of the numerous factors, we just know it is happening, and so, it really is critical in my mind that the awareness and the focus and attention on endometrial cancers is really there, that we really think about it, that we share the information as much as possible, and that we can really then come to better – have more opportunity for treatments, be able to diagnose it sooner, be able to have more opportunities to treat it, and honestly, have better survival and outcomes for our patients. 

Katherine:

Dr. Ko, thank you so much for joining us today. You’ve given us so much information. 

Dr. Ko:

Thank you. It was my pleasure. 

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our collaborators. If you would like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs. To learn more about endometrial cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit PowerfulPatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us. 

PODCAST: MPN Specialized Care and Technology: Digital Health and Symptom Management

/in , , , , , , /by

 

Nearly 80% of patients living with a myeloproliferative neoplasm (MPN) are affected by fatigue. Can digital health alleviate symptom burden in MPN care? What exactly is mobile app intervention, and how can it help me? Dr. Krisstina Gowin and Dr. AnaMaria Lopez discuss technological interventions in MPN symptom management, telemedicine limitations and the importance of connecting with an MPN specialist. 

See More from MPN TelemEDucation

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield: 

Welcome to this Patient Empowerment Network Program, I’m your host Lisa Hatfield. In this unique program, we explore cancer care and technology, specifically the importance of specialized care in myeloproliferative neoplasms, MPNs for short, and the role of digital health in symptom management. Today, I’m joined by two incredible experts, Dr. Krisstina Gowin is a hematologist, oncologist treating MPNs. I’m gonna shorten that, simplify it, treating MPNs. Dr. Gowin is Assistant Professor of Medicine at the University of Arizona. And Dr. Gowin it’s such a pleasure to connect with you.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin: 

Oh, it’s such an honor to be on today and connect with you all. Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa Hatfield: 

Also joining us is respected oncologist, Dr AnaMaria Lopez, Professor of Medical Oncology at Sidney Kimmel Cancer Centre, Thomas Jefferson University. Dr Lopez is a telemedicine pioneer as the founding medical director of the Arizona Telemedicine Program. Welcome, Dr Lopez, thank you for being here.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez: 

Thank you so much. So looking forward to the discussion.

Lisa Hatfield: Thank you. So, Dr Lopez, I’d like to start with you to talk about cancer care and technology and how far we’ve come with technology and cancer care. We’ve made a fair number of strides in cancer care as they relate to digital health. Can you speak to that a bit?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. I always say that the COVID pandemic allowed us to advance telehealth in a couple of months what probably would have taken 70 years. So we went from maybe 10% of the visits being done through tele to 90% plus. So a huge, huge change, and a lot of lessons learned, both in the, how do we do it clinically as well as how do we integrate this? How do we integrate this into clinical trials and to move beyond? We really thought telemedicine and really thinking telehealth because there are so many technologies, so there could be monitors, there could be… A lot of us were doing work in patient-recorded outcomes, how do you integrate that? How do you make it easy for patients to use this? And maybe it’s not simply the patient, but it’s also the patient and the caregiver who can help with this reporting. What are really the implementation efforts that need to be done? I could go on and on because there are so many lessons learned and it really shook things up. So people are thinking of this as a new technological revolution. So technology plays a big role in care and certainly a very big role in cancer care.

Lisa Hatfield:

And just out of curiosity, Dr Lopez, do you have a lot of your patients who still continue to see you via digital health or telehealth, who prefer that?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yes. Yeah. For example, in some of the psychiatry literature, which I think is a little bit unexpected ’cause you think psychiatry is such an intimate interaction. Well a lot of patients actually feel safer when it’s digital, when it’s through tele. So yeah, I do. And we were talking earlier about doing integrative medicine, and almost all of my integrative medicine patients, we do at a distance. I really think of it as it’s a way to bring back the house call.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes. Well, thank you for that overview, Dr Lopez. So the pandemic has resulted in significant changes to many aspects of daily living for many of us, but for patients living with cancer like myself, there are different realities that we’ve had to deal with. Do we go in for our monthly blood draws, or do we wait a couple of months? So question for Dr Gowin, can you give us an overview of the impact that Covid-19 has had on MPNs or MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Absolutely. Well, there was a really wonderful study that was done, really led out of Mayo, by Jeanne Palmer and Ruben Mesa, and it was an international study, and it looked at 1500 MPN patients. And they asked questions like, how many of you are actually having telemedicine? And this was in 2020, kind of at the beginning. And over half of them had already been engaging in telemedicine. And about a quarter of them felt that their care actually was delayed a little bit and that there were actually consequences to that delay, so that really speaks to an international kind of change in the paradigm of how we’re delivering care for MPN patients. The other thing is the lockdowns, the lockdowns that were occurring for us here in the US and really internationally. And what they did is, they asked patients their MPN symptom burden, and those that were on lockdown, not surprisingly I think to all of us, had a significantly higher symptom burden.

So I think that really speaks to that A, yes, there was a very large impact of COVID on the development of telemedicine and the need for telemedicine. But it also underscores the need for symptom management that we now have a group of patients that are having a higher symptom burden, probably likely secondary to more sedentary behavior, more anxiety, more depression, but a higher symptom burden because of COVID. And so we really need not only more therapeutics and perhaps non-pharmacologic interventions to support their symptom burden, but it needs to be delivered on a digital platform.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that, Dr. Gowin. So you brought up a really good point, and this is a great segue to talk about integrative health. So I have multiple myeloma, and of course that comes with side effects from the different therapies and symptoms of their own. We have a great integrative health center at our cancer center here locally where I live, and I’ve used it for acupuncture for some of my symptom management. I’ve also watched you on different platforms, through webinars and patient support groups where you describe different integrative health techniques and that type of thing. So I’m wondering… Two questions. The first part is, what symptoms do MPN patients face the most? And then how can they use integrative health to do that, particularly as it relates to telemedicine? Are there telemedicine options for integrative health? I suppose things like acupuncture, maybe not, but other types of integrative health, and can they get a consult for integrative health? Can they even go as far as getting a consult? So if you can answer those questions, the symptoms they face, how to use integrative health, and if they can get a consult for integrative health, that would be great. We’d appreciate that.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yeah. Well, Lisa, I wanna take a moment just to validate your journey that you’re going through and to congratulate you for your self-advocacy to go look for those integrative therapies to support yourself. And for MPN patients, I will say that it’s a really unique group, and so all cancer patients experience symptoms, but in myeloproliferative neoplasms, it’s really kind of this heterogeneous what we call a symptom burden. And so most patients will experience fatigue about 80% of MPN patients. But then beyond that, there’s really a whole slew of different sequelae that can be associated with the disease, which you may or may not think about when you’re thinking about MPNs, such as psychosocial issues, sleep issues, sexual issues.

And then we have kind of the classical issues that happen with MPNs, such as dizziness, but we talked about the fatigue, bone pain, itching, abdominal discomfort from an enlarged spleen and early satiety, or feeling full quickly. It’s really a huge symptom complex, if you will. And we now have validated measurement tools to better understand those. It’s the MPN symptom assessment form, which has really, I think, revolutionized how we look at MPN. It’s no longer just treating the blood counts. We’re treating the patient as a whole, and even within our NCCN guidelines, kind of how we as oncologists go through the algorithms of how to change therapy and how we look at patients. We now have symptoms in there. So even if blood counts are controlled, we may change therapies or even do a bone marrow based on symptoms alone. So symptoms are a huge thing in MPN. So getting to your second question for integrative health.

So I think that MPN… The patients in the community are really early adopters for digital engagement, which is fantastic. Everyone’s very engaged and I’ve had the opportunity to work on meditation apps, yoga apps, a wellness based app here from the University of Arizona, and patients just really accrue fast. Everyone’s so excited. And most of these, though, were very small kind of pilot trials, looking at feasibility, can’t we really do these things? But most of them as well are showing some impacts on depression, anxiety, sleep, and total symptom burden. So I do think that these modalities through digital platforms certainly can make a difference on the symptoms. And we’ve seen that with meditation. We’ve seen it with yoga and we’ve seen it with a seven domain wellness app. And is it the digital engagement? I don’t think so.

I think it’s likely the integrative therapies that they’re receiving through that platform, right? We know meditation works, we know yoga works, perhaps not so well in MPNs. We need to build that evidence base, but other solid cancers, we know those interventions really work. But it’s wonderful to get that kind of early data, say it not only works, but it also works when you’re doing it at home, when you’re doing it on a digital platform. And so I would encourage all patients listening to this to, yes, look at what’s around you, what are the resources, what are the clinical trials? Looking at these different digital modalities for integrative medicine, but also to go get an integrative consultation.

And as Dr. Lopez already had mentioned, she does all of her integrative medicine via telemedicine now, which is fantastic. And so you, it’s really, it’s that you know, your fingertips. You now have access to wonderful oncologists like Dr. Lopez to guide you in this journey. And the journey is not only allopathic western medicine, but it’s treating you as a person, you as a whole symptom complex. And that’s really what integrative medicine aims to support you through.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. Dr. Gowin. So you talked about an app that patients can use. Is this app accessible to any patient or is it just within a trial or a study that you’ve done?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

No, it is widely accessible. It is free, even better. [laughter], it’s called my Wellness Coach. And that’s…

Lisa Hatfield:

I’m writing that down. Okay. [laughter]

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s really wonderful. Many domains of wellness. It’s based on motivational interviewing and smart goals. It gives you little reminders of, hey, and you set your own goals, which is wonderful.

Lisa Hatfield:

And what types of interventions then does that contain? Does it have things like you said, meditation and does it have a yoga program for patients? Or what types of interventions?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Not quite yet. I think that that’s what we aspire to is really this multidimensional intervention. It’s not really an intervention. It’s looking at your life. It’s saying, “what are you eating? What are your nutrition goals? How are you moving? What are your exercise goals?”

How is your resiliency? How is your spiritual health? How are your relationships? And so it’s asking all of these domains of what our wellness is and helps to identify where perhaps you would like to devote more time and energy to, and also gives some resources and education around each of those domains and why they’re so important. But you set your own goals and then…

Lisa Hatfield:

That’s great.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

You’re accountable for your goals.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Well, thank you so much for that information. And you mentioned that Dr. Lopez also does her integrative health via telemedicine. So I’m gonna ask Dr. Lopez, can you speak to that a little bit more? How do you do that with patients? Do they just contact you and set up an appointment for an integrative health consult or appointment? And do you conduct some of that yourself or do you send them to particular resources in the community?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. So, yes, patients can make an integrative oncology appointment directly. I really like to do the consults through tele simply because I can… As I was mentioning, it’s like a virtual house call to really get a sense of the patient. Often a partner, significant other, caregiver might be present as well and as we know there’s the survivor and there’s the co-survivor. So including both can be very helpful to some people and I think the initial intake… Again as Dr. Gowin was saying it depends so much on what the person wants to do. So the first opportunity for coming together is simply, where are you? What are your goals? What’s important to you? And of the panoply of options, which might be the easiest or the one that you are most interested in.

And so depending on what it is we might work together, we might also bring in others if the person is really interested in making lifestyle changes, let’s say related to nutrition. The person might work closely with a nutritionist for some period of time and then come back and we’d come together and reassess. You mentioned the acupuncture and you can’t do acupuncture at a distance, but you can certainly teach people about the points and consider acupressure for certain points. So there’s so many ways to engage and interact, but yes, I think like a lot of medicine, it’s a team-based approach.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you. Dr. Lopez. I do have to say with acupuncture, one of the side effects of a lot of the cancer medications is neuropathy. And a lot of patients like myself try every option, every pharmacological option, whether it’s gabapentin or something else, and they don’t work an acupuncture for me anyway, personally. I had a significant reduction in the painful neuropathy… Not so much in the tingling, but a significant reduction that, so I am very strong advocate for integrative health. So thank you for explaining that a bit more and as long as we have you on Dr. Lopez, can you also speak more broadly to innovative telehealth tools that are making an impact on symptom management and overall cancer care?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. So one of the things that we know, is that for example, people have appointments every three weeks, or they have appointments once a month with the oncologist, and a lot can happen in that time. So setting up systems that are assisted by technology, so that patients can report their symptoms in real time can be very helpful. And some of this may require… It may not be a common way where the person may be familiar going to a computer or going to their phone to kind of say, “This is how I’m feeling.” So that may require some engagement education, but often regardless of age, regardless of background, people find that really easy and find that so helpful to be able to say, “Oh, was it two weeks ago that I had that?” As opposed to just saying, “Hey, I just had this,” and then it can happen anytime day or night that the patient can report. And that way there’s… It’s just so helpful to have an intervention in real time.

The other part that’s good is that often some of these systems can kind of track. So we can look at it together and say, “You know what? Your fatigue tends to be a couple of weeks after therapy, so how can we either prepare for that?” Or just to have the reassurance that, “Yes you have that depth, but it gets better and you get through it.” So being able to look retrospectively and identify that can be helpful and I think also just the ease for people to be able to connect with multiple specialists, sometimes to have multidisciplinary visits where not only does the patient meet with everyone, but the patient can see that we are all meeting and interacting together. So all of those are incredible tools, one of my favorites though, one of my favorites is patients who are in the hospital and patients who are in the hospital a long time, on some occasions. So and even if a person’s not there a long time, it can feel like a long time, so to use the technology, not just to connect the patient, the healthcare team, but to use the technology to connect the patient with his or her family. And I think especially… I mean, a lot of people have smartphones, but it’s using your minutes, sometimes the internet may not be so strong. So to use the technology that would be used for the clinical piece to have that available in the inpatient setting so that patients can feel connected.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah, that’s a really great thought that you brought up, too. I know when the pandemic was in full swing, but patients were starting to go back into the office to see their provider. For me, I was not allowed to take my husband in with me, so I went in alone. I was far enough along in my journey. I didn’t necessarily need a care partner with me, but some patients do, maybe a newly diagnosed patient. So that is a really great point. Say, a patient has to come in by himself or herself, is that a technology they can use? Are you willing to let them use their phone to maybe FaceTime during that call or we had to use the actual physical landline because my phone did not connect, the signal wasn’t strong enough. But do you allow that during your appointments to have patients contact somebody?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Absolutely.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. That’s great. Yeah.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

And also there’s pandemic, but there’s also… People live everywhere. So you could say their sun could be in California and I’m in Philadelphia and this way it’s okay, we’ll just beam them in.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes. Well, thank you for that information. And some patients might be a little more reluctant to use telehealth or telemedicine. How can patients and their care partners feel more confident in voicing their concerns or communicating with their healthcare teams regarding any telemedicine options that are out there?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

So you mentioned that I had been the founding medical director of the Arizona Telemedicine Program, and it was such a wonderful experience because skepticism and I really respected that. It was brand new and we had our system in the library. And the library, it was down in the basement, so it was very metaphorical. I would meet the new clinician at the entrance of the library. We would walk down the stairs together and often, the conversation was, “Okay, I’m doing this for you. I’m doing it one time. We’ll see how it goes.” And I was always so reassuring that if for some reason,’cause ultimately the clinician needs to feel comfortable, yes, this works, or no, it doesn’t. And if you have any doubt and you feel that you need to see the patient in person, you just need to say that, I need to see the patient in person. And inevitably as we’re walking up the stairs, “Oh, I know you called me because I was on call. Just call me anytime. Don’t call the on-call person”. This was great. I loved it.

So inevitably, people really like it and it’s good. You see the patient in their own environment, you can interact. You often get insights that you may not have gotten otherwise just because of where you are and how comfortable they feel in their own space. So I think, for me it’s the proofs in the pudding. Give people the opportunity, have the right supports and technology in place and often it’s a very positive experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you Dr. Lopez. So Dr. Gowin, a couple of questions for you. Is technology playing a role in accelerating progress in MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Oh, absolutely. And I think some of the ways that it really accelerates progress is pulling us together. So what we need to recognize is that myeloproliferative neoplasms truly is a rare disease and we just celebrated Rare Disease day. But there’s a lot of challenge in treating patients and progressing the field forward in rare diseases because you can’t do the big clinical trials. It’s hard to come together ’cause everything’s siloed and there’s just a couple patients here, a couple patients there in each practice. But with digital health and clinical trials that are offered on a digital platform, it pulls the nation together and even the world together. And we’ve seen that. I’ve done a international survey-based analysis and I had 858 MPN patients from 52 countries participate in that survey. And so that just shows how it pulls the world together. And for the web app that we just discussed, we had 93 patients say they were interested within three weeks, and within actually a week, we identified them all and then took three weeks to actually accrue them to the trial. So it really speaks to A, how MPN patients are digitally engaged and excited about these kinds of platforms. And then B, how effective it really can be to pull the groups together.

So yes, I think it’s… And that’s really how we’re gonna get progress is through these kind of interventions with a rare disease. And I hope it’s okay if we jump back to something you said, Dr. Lopez, which is, I think telemedicine is so so important to bring everyone together. And in particular, I see that on the transplant ward. And so in myelofibrosis, that’s the only curative therapy. And so many myelofibrosis patients actually go through allogeneic stem cell transplantation. And my goodness, that is a socially isolating experience. Patients are in the hospital, not uncommonly for at least 30 days and then have to be near their transplant center for three months, which often is away from home. So to pull in their support system, both through the acuity of the transplant themselves and then the couple of months after is so crucial to a successful transplantation. And I think through FaceTime and also the MPN support groups, which is very robust, the patient advocacy and the way the MPN network sticks together on a digital platform, I think is really unique and offers unique support.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you. And then what role does technology play in the disease symptom management, and in particular, in clinical trials too. What role does technology play with clinical trials?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think it helps us through different, clinical trial accrual patterns, we can see who’s eligible where, so it helps us identify patients. It helps us to, understand the different kind of precision based medicine approaches so we can start to pool the data, say for, particular mutations… ASXL1 mutations. And so it helps us in the precision medicine aspect of clinical trials and now we’re looking at symptom management and how do we really integrate that. So large survivorship platforms like Carevive, if you’ve ever heard of Carevive, is now integrating our validated symptom assessment form into the Carevive platform. So now we can really collect that data and use that to mine it for potential kind of retrospective analysis. So it’s helpful for clinical trials as well as for our clinicians and clinics to really identify changes in symptom burden.

And just as Dr. Lopez was mentioning, that we can track these over time and it can flag and say, “Oh, your symptoms are changing, they’re increasing over time,” and maybe we need to be thinking about that. And so Carevive is really kind of a electronic medical record driven it’s really a healthcare driven platform, but now there’s patient ones too. And I just learned about this two weeks ago, I was at an MPN conference in Phoenix and learned about MPN Genie. And so MPN Genie apparently is tracking… Patients are putting their symptoms in and that’s shooting that information to the electronic medical record to their doctors. And so I think that’s fantastic, ’cause, we now get that information real time and we can change our clinical management, maybe bring that patient in sooner, maybe do a bone marrow earlier. We never would’ve identified that if it weren’t for those kind of digital engagements, so I think it’s a really exciting time. And I think we’re gonna see more and more of these new platforms and ways for different EMRs and smartphones to be communicating back and forth between patients and providers.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. That MPN Genie is fascinating to me that we can have that real-time communication going back and forth as a patient, I would love that. So going back to clinical trials, I’m curious if you think that, technology has progressed enough, so in the past… Say I’m an MPN patient or a myeloma patient, I see a clinical trial or hear about one, I have to be onsite for that clinical trial for monitoring maybe for six months to a year. Do you think that technology has progressed enough that clinical trials might allow a patient to be at home, maybe in a more remote area and monitored remotely? Whereas in the past, that same clinical trial required them to be at the facility? Do you think that we’ve progressed to that point in some clinical trials?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

You bet. Yeah. I think COVID out of necessity has forced us to do that. And I have in my own clinical trials, even with pharmacologic clinical trials conducted telemedicine visits that were approved by the sponsor. So the paradigm is shifting, and particularly when it is oral therapeutics, I think that’s really accessible when they’re, IV subcutaneous, I think that has different challenges. Obviously you can’t do that as remote, but when they’re oral therapeutics are non-pharmacologic intervention, such as our integrative interventions, I think it really lands well to a more remote experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. And then would that require communication between the local oncologist and maybe someone like yourself, the investigator on that clinical trial to know what is going on with that particular patient? I assume that that communication would be ongoing?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Absolutely. Always.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Yeah. All right, great. Well, thank you for that information. So, Dr. Lopez, kind of a similar question for you. What are some examples of how technology is influencing cancer care right now?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah, let me just add on the clinical trial question.

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh, Yes.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

That there’s also the opportunity. Again, there were so many things that we thought, “Oh no, we just can’t be done.” But because of the necessity, necessity is the mother of invention, we do remote consent, so that was a big deal in the past. We can also do a tele visit ahead of the appointment, and screen for the cancer clinical trials, people travel large distances for studies and instead of traveling four or five hours, and then to be told, “Oh, actually you don’t meet the criteria.” To be able to do all of that at a distance, to get the records, to get the images, to review all that needs to be reviewed. And then to say yes, and not only yes, but we can also do your consent at a distance in some situations.

And then when you come, there’s actually the more substantive, perhaps even the treatment. There’s also a large, movement around hospital at home and that these patients that are eligible for that would be able… With digital support, be able to get hospital level care in some cases at home. So some of that may involve infusion, some of that… Again, but that visual connectivity and in the past you really had to kind of conceptualize it and it was kind of space aging to talk about it. But we now, we’ve all done FaceTime, so I think we all really can understand what it entails, so tremendous shifts and, we wanna try to keep that momentum going for our patients. So, I do think that, there’s so many ways that technology has impacted cancer care, even when we talk about the electronic record and patients accessing the electronic record and patients having the opportunity to go into a portal and to see their labs, to see their reports…

To be able to track their changes. All of that is really, really powerful. You know, patients with… The most common I think is patients with diabetes who track their blood sugar sometimes to the minute and they can say, “Oh, I ate that and now I see the impact.” So the opportunity for monitoring, the opportunity for also bringing in experts. So let’s say there’s a patient with a rare disease and the expert is elsewhere, there might be the opportunity to bring people together. We do tumor boards. That’s just part of what we do in cancer care. And also as many… There are health systems now so that it’s not one hospital, it’s multiple hospitals together where we can bring all of those folks together, bring in local expertise, regional expertise, national expertise, all for the patient’s benefit.

So there are so many ways that technology even something as simple as the note. Now this is something we experimented with and it’s still in experimentation phase, but there were these Google classes where you could interact with the patient and as I’m talking, the Google glass would record kind of the conversation and would come up with some sort of a structure for the note. So for what that encounter had been like. So there are lots of ways of how do you capture natural language in real time to really help the workflow, the documentation process. So I think there’s aspects to help the patient, to help the families, to help the clinical teams and to help everybody work together.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you. And you talked about the patient portal and I’m one of those patients at fault of seeing a lab result before my doctor saw it and calling him or sending a message via MyChart saying, “Hey, this is going up. What’s wrong with this?” So I’m sure you don’t have to mention any names. I’m sure you’ve seen the challenges of, digital health too, are having that patient portable or portal accessible to patients. So anyway, just wanted to throw that out there that I’m sure that brings challenges to you. Also few little challenges here and there.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

But at the same time, that’s so good, right? It’s so good that patients are engaged. It’s so good that you’re engaged. And I think as long as, we’re communicating that yes, you may see this before me, so you may have questions and then, we just get together and answer the questions.

Lisa Hatfield:

And thank you for saying that Dr. Lopez, because a lot of us patients who do that occasionally feel a little bit guilty for sending a note right away to our doctors. “We know you’re busy. We know you’ve already, you’ll look at those labs. If you’re concerned, you’ll call us or let us know”. And sometimes we jump the gun a little bit. So thank you for reassuring us that that’s okay, that that’s okay to do that. So we appreciate that. So Dr. Gowin, do you have anything to add on, how MPN care or just cancer care in general could change with different technologies? We didn’t touch a lot on things like artificial intelligence and that type of thing, and we can speak to that or, any other type of technology that you’re familiar with.

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think the artificial intelligence aspect is really going to change the paradigm again on how we’re designing, studies. And I think one of the biggest challenges that we have in myeloma and as well as myeloproliferative neoplasms, is to think about how do we optimally sequence our therapies to achieve best survival, right? And I think this is a wonderful problem to have. We have now not only one JAK inhibitor on the market, but several and more in the pipeline and several other therapeutic targets. And so now the question is which therapy and when do we employ it? So things like artificial intelligence will help us to answer that question with machine learning decision tree analysis, all of that is going to be answered through those kind of platforms. And so I think that is going to be a shift we will see in the next five years is many different machine-based learning algorithms to better understand those problems we cannot have tackled traditionally otherwise.

Sensors though is another one, right? And so a big thing in MPNs is not only addressing the blood counts and reducing risk of thrombosis, and to address symptom burden, but it’s really addressing lifestyle because it’s things like cardiovascular disease, stroke that really we’re worried about as some of the sequelae of having the disease and what we’re trying to prevent with therapeutics. And so even going back to this NCCN guidelines, it’s addressing cardiovascular risk factors as part of our core treatment goals. And so how do we really do that? And it’s really through lifestyle medicine and that’s where the sensors come in. And so now we have, these Fitbits and smartphones that connect to our Apple watches and we have Garmins and all these wonderful devices that are prompting us to move more, prompting us to be cognizant of our heart rate and stress response prompting us to meditate. And so I can envision those evolving over time and connecting to the EMR and being very seamlessly interwoven into our clinical trials. And we’re already doing that. In fact, we’re talking about doing one very soon in MPN patients. And so I think the sensors are gonna be another big way that we’re going to be integrating, into our clinical trials and symptom management tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

That’s fascinating. Thank you for that. And Dr. Lopez, do you have anything to add about other technologies and how they may affect cancer care in the future?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Sure. When Dr. Gowin mentioned the sensors, it just reminded me, we’re building this new building, patient care building and oncology will be there. And I did a tour recently, and we’re used to going to the doctor, you stop in, they get your blood pressure, they get your weight, et cetera. Here, you’ll walk in directly to your exam room and you check in at a kiosk, so you just kinda check in [chuckle] with a little robot kiosk, and then it’ll tell you where you’re going. You’ll go to Room 3, let’s say, and Room 3 will say, “Welcome, Lisa.” [chuckle] And so you know that you’re in the right place. And you’ll walk in, there’s your gown, you’ll sit in the exam chair, and the exam chair automatically is gonna take your vital signs. So it just seems, really these built-in aspects to the technology. And one of the things, again, what I just love about this work is that it’s a very interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary. And one of the projects that we were working on, which it ties into this, when I was in Arizona with the telemedicine program is we worked with the College of Architecture and with this concept of smart buildings.

So it’s kinda like that. Why should you do these different sensors that detect, but that it could also detect. You might walk into the room and you might be really nervous as you might be really cold, and it would detect that and it would warm the room for you. Or you might be coming in and be having hot flashes and it would just cool the room for you. So the technology has so much potential to really improve the patient experience.

Lisa Hatfield:

And that’s amazing to me. I think that would be incredible to walk into a building to have that experience, as long as it doesn’t take away the compassion and care I get from my providers. I am so fortunate to have extraordinary providers, so I don’t think it will ever take over that aspect of it, I think that is a fear people have, especially with artificial intelligence and that type of thing, I think it can only go so far. Can’t provide the humanness that’s required for patient care, so yeah.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah. These are tools.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yes, that it. Great, well, thank you very much. Dr. Gowin, can you provide or share some examples of how telemedicine is influencing personalized medicine and MPN care, and how can MPN patients best advocate for themselves to get the latest in MPN care?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think it’s going back to some of the conversations we’ve already had, is that now with telemedicine, you can really access academic centers no matter where you are. And so rural areas now can go to academic centers, very accessible without travel, and so what that lends to is more access to precision-based clinical trials, and very often now we’re doing next generation sequencing panels for patients with MPN. We’re looking at what are the genetic features of the disease and we may be accruing trials based on those genetic features. And so that kind of conversation really only happens at academic centers, and so I think it’s really allowing those that live far away, a few hours away, to really have those personalized and precision-based conversations. And then tying in again the aspect of integrative medicine. And then what is integrative medicine all about is personalizing your treatment plan, asking what are your goals, what is your lifestyle, what is your culture, and how do we really get you on a plan that makes sense for you, that is local for you and sustainable for you to really achieve your optimum wellness?

And so if I were counseling patients listening to this, I would say, start with the in-state academic centers and say, “What are the telemedicine services there? Is there an integrative medicine department there”? And then get a quarterback within that department and say, “Okay, this is the plan”, and then that quarterback can say, “Well, now let’s look local. What do you have? What are your resources there? Let me do some homework with you and hook you up with really evidence-based high quality providers to achieve your personalized needs in your local community”. And I think that’s how we’re really going to get all of our patients in a precision and personalized approach no matter where they live, and that’s again, the beauty of telemedicine and digital health.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great, thank you, Dr. Gowin. And I know we’ve spoken, both you and Dr. Lopez have spoken to all of the rewards of telehealth. Are there any risks or drawbacks that you see to telehealth or telemedicine for digital health?

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

The most important thing is to remember that the technology is a tool, and if the person feels that there’s a limitation, so for example, if the patient is seen and they say their heart is racing or skipping beats or something, now, there are ways, there are electronic stethoscope, so you can really do a full exam except for palpation through telemedicine. But not everybody has that even in a clinic, but certainly in our own home, we don’t have that technology. So if a patient is expressing a concern for which the clinician really feels that needs a closer evaluation, then that’s the right next step, so we’re not… The technology is a tool to help us care for people, and if it’s not all available right there, then we need to see the patient in person. So I think that’s the risk is just sometimes people may feel limited like, “Oh, well, I’m not really sure.” It’s okay, I’m not really sure I need to see you, or you need to go here or go there for the care.

And the other, which is a really big threat, is that part of the reason we did 70 years work in a couple months is because it was reimbursed and we’re reaching the end of the pandemic, the federal… And with that, the payers may go backwards. We all know that if that happens, we will go backwards in telemedicine. [chuckle] There will just be decreased, decrease use. And it may lead to people then going back to traveling four hours, waiting, only to be told, “Oh, you know what? There’s not this. This clinical trial doesn’t work for you.” So we don’t want to lose ground. And part of not losing ground is that we really need to continue to have advocacy around reimbursement.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you, Dr. Lopez. And I feel compelled, just to follow up with one more question regarding that, because I’m very passionate about this. With some of these rules and guidelines coming to an end, I know in my particular state that I will no longer be able to access my specialist. I see a myeloma specialist. We do not have any here locally. I can access a specialist via telemedicine. I will not have that opportunity. So as all of us know, there are disparities and there are financial disparities in cancer patients. There are racial disparities in cancer patients, there are socioeconomic disparities. Telemedicine has been a tremendous… Has had a tremendous impact on the care and the outcomes and the quality of life of so many patients. So as a patient and as an advocate, do you have any recommendations? Do I go to my doctor and say, “Okay, how can I move forward and still talk to my specialist, who’s out of state? Do I go to my state legislature? Do I talk to my insurance company? How can we get this to continue?” Because this has had such a significant impact on the quality of life and on the outcomes for patients, who otherwise, would not have been able to access that care.

Dr. AnaMaria Lopez:

Yeah, I mean, I think all of the above. Partnering with other advocates, the American Telemedicine Association has a map that kind of says where are all the shifting sands regarding the different rules and legislative changes. But I think it’s led us to a place, where we are all advocates and where physicians, nurses, patients, pharmacists, everybody in the same way that we do team-based care, that we do team-based advocacy and it’s all for our patients.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Thank you for that. Dr. Gowin, any last words that you may have about accessing specialists or telemedicine options?

Dr. Krisstina Gowin:

Well, I think we covered the basics, but I just wanna end with just how empowering the access to digital health interventions really is. And so I don’t think there is a one size fits all approach to every patient. So what I would encourage patients to do is just to really think, “How do I compliment my care? What am I missing? How do I achieve my best wellness? And how do I get those resources in my home to make them more convenient for me?” And to start doing some research and self-advocacy to really get those resources ’cause they are out there and in almost… In every domain, there is now a digital version that is accessible to you now.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that. So it is time to wrap up our program. I could ask you many more questions. From a patient perspective, it has been so refreshing to take a minute to understand how far we’ve come and to have a look at the exciting innovations ahead. As always, we appreciate all the new tools being added to the toolbox, and I am eternally grateful for Dr. Gowin and Dr. Lopez and all providers who are willing to come on these webinars and answer questions from patients. It is so empowering to us, and we’re so appreciative of your time and your energy and your expertise. So thank you so much for being here today. And just a reminder to all patients, to always consult with your medical team about what is right for you. Thank you again so much to Dr. Lopez and Dr. Gowin for joining us for this Patient Empowerment Network program. I’m Lisa Hatfield. Thank you.

PODCAST: Updates in Prostate Cancer Treatment and Research | What You Need to Know

/in , , , , , , /by

 

With research evolving quickly, it’s more important than ever that people with prostate cancer take an active role in their care. Dr. Channing Paller shares an update on recent prostate care treatment advances, discusses essential testing–including genetic testing–and provides advice for self-advocacy.

Channing Paller, MD is the Director of Prostate Cancer Clinical Research at Johns Hopkins Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Paller.

See More From INSIST! Prostate Cancer

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello, and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell. Your host. Today’s program focuses on helping patients with advanced prostate cancer insist on better care. We’re going to discuss the latest research, current treatments, and how patients can collaborate with their healthcare team on key decisions.

Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to program materials. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar.

At the end of this program, you’ll receive another link to a program survey. Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today, in order to help us plan future webinars. And finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Channing Paller. Dr. Paller, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself?

Dr. Paller:

Thank you, Katherine. I’m delighted to be here today. My name is Channing Paller. I’m Associate Professor of Oncology at Johns Hopkins and the director of Prostate Cancer Clinical Research.

Katherine:

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.

Dr. Paller:

Thank you for having me.

Katherine:

Dr. Paller, in June, prostate cancer researchers from around the world met to discuss their findings at the annual American Society of Clinical Oncology, or ASCO meeting, in Chicago. Would you walk us through the highlights from that meeting that patients should know about?

Dr. Paller:

Absolutely. We’ve had a exciting time for prostate cancer in June. So, I’d say, the first thing I would bring up is, the PEACE-1 trial was discussed again, and more data came out from that trial. That trial originally supported what we found, the STAMPEDE trial, to say, yes, we should add abiraterone to androgen deprivation therapy and chemotherapy in helping de novo metastatic patients live longer and do better overall. And it also, this time around, showed us that combining abiraterone (Zytiga) with radiation, plus or minus chemo, had patients do better. So, they had a longer progression-free survival, or metastasis-free survival.

And also, the neat thing was, patients had fewer local symptoms in the long run. So, it prevented catheters being needed later, prevented blockages. It prevented local side effects from their cancer, which was really terrific to know, because that helps with patients’ quality of life.

That was one of the main, personally. Go ahead.

Katherine:

Yeah, I was just going to ask, anything else?

Dr. Paller:

Yes. So, the second big headline, which is one of my dear loves, is all of the PARP inhibitor data. So, there were a couple trials presented, and this month has been terrific in terms of, there have been two drug approvals. So, let me talk through a couple of those.

So, one of the big ones that was presented at ASCO was looking at talazoparib (Talzenna) and enzalutamide (Xtandi) in patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer, and it showed that the combination of those two drugs helped patients do better than enzalutamide alone, in that setting. What was also interesting is a subset of patients with DNA repair mutations did even better.

June 20th, the FDA approved that combination for patients with metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer with DNA repair mutations.

We also had a drug approval for abiraterone (Zytiga) and olaparib (Lynparza) in the same space of metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer for patients with BRCA mutations. That was a more narrow approval, but it was still very important.

And what’s exciting here is, we’re really learning more about targeted therapy, precision medicine, for our prostate cancer patients. When I started treating prostate cancer patients back in 2005, the main drug approved was chemotherapy, docetaxel (Taxotere), and hormone deprivation therapy. And in the last almost 20 years, or 18 years, we’ve had 10 drug approvals, and we’re really starting to have multiple drugs approved based on people’s genetics.

Katherine:

That’s such promising news. I mentioned at the top of the program that our focus for this webinar is advanced prostate cancer. So, I’d like you to define that. What is advanced prostate cancer? And is any of the research you mentioned focused on this stage of disease?

Dr. Paller:

Well, advanced prostate cancer includes any prostate cancer that was extended outside the prostate, really, that’s spread to the nodes, even to the lymph nodes, to the liver, to the lungs, to the bones. And so, we have a lot of new findings, looking at this space, and that was a lot of what they showed at the ASCO conference.

The other thing we’re learning is that we really want to get genetic testing on everybody. And so, in addition to your regular, “How do you feel?” “What do your labs show?” “What is your PSA doing?”

We also want to get imaging, right? So, we want to look at imaging, in terms of, what did your CT and bone scan show? And nowadays, we’re moving into PSMA, or prostate-specific membrane antigen, PET scans.

And so, that’s the new main way people look at where their prostate cancer has gone, and help them decide, what is the best treatment for me? Is it to get surgery locally, or has it advanced now, and I really need to do hormone therapy and radiation, or some other combination of systemic therapy, meaning more hormones, or more chemotherapy, with targeted therapies such as radiation?

Katherine:

Beyond ASCO, Dr. Paller, are there other research or treatment advances that patients should know about? Anything other than what you’ve mentioned already?

Dr. Paller:

Oh, yes. So, the other headline that I was really excited about at ASCO is watching medicine adopt the world of artificial intelligence. There was a great abstract, looking at how we can use artificial intelligence to look up pathology slides.

So, in the past, we would always want to go to a top academic center to have your pathology reviewed by a top expert and make sure we were treating the right cancer, and make sure we really understand your risk. What we’re finding is, we can create biomarkers, and we’re understanding not just genetic, genomic biomarkers, but also pathology biomarkers, and age, and PSA, and risk, and comorbidities, and we can combine them all together and use AI to help us better stratify patients.

And so, although it’s early, I think this is going to be an explosion in terms of helping us better define risk for patients in advanced prostate cancer, and help them figure out, do they need intensification of treatment, or can we de-intensify treatment? Can we not cause as much toxicity, and they’ll do just as well? And so, I was really excited to see that data as well.

Katherine:

How can patients stay up to date on evolving research?

Dr. Paller:

There are many ways to stay up to date. There are nice summaries at ASCO. There are nice summaries through the Prostate Cancer Foundation. There are good summaries at each of the institutions with whom you work.

One of my favorite ways to stay up to date on precision medicine is one of these registries that I am co-leading, which is called the PROMISE registry. This is a wonderful opportunity which was conceived in the pandemic.

And so, it’s pandemic friendly, and that is called the PROMISE registry. And what you can do is go to prostatecancerpromise.org and sign up if you have prostate cancer. And you say, “Hey, I have prostate cancer. This is my address. Please ship me a kit where I can do saliva testing of my genes.” And once you get your tests sent in, they’ll send you a kit, you send it back, you’ll get an email, and you can go over your results with a genetic counselor.

And then, once you get enrolled in this program, it is really just a free information source. And so, you can learn more about the clinical trials around the country for patients with different mutations. And so, I love that as, whether or not you have a mutation and you’re going to follow with us for 20 years, because we’re going to offer you opportunities and let you be the first to know about new drug approvals, you can still hear about all of the new research.

And I think that’s a wonderful, free resource that we’ve done for our patients to help them understand more about what’s out there. Another opportunity to learn more about prostate cancer is the prostate cancer clinical trial consortium. They have a nice website looking at germline genetics, looking at diversity, looking about clinical trial design. And so, there’s lots of different places to learn more about prostate cancer.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Paller, what about clinical trials? Why should patients consider enrolling, and what are the benefits for them?

Dr. Paller:                   

I like to tell my patients that once you have metastatic or advanced prostate cancer, we’re not doing placebo on you. If we’re doing placebo, it’s the standard of care plus a new drug, and we want to know if the new drug in combination with the old drug is better than the old drug alone.

And so, I find those patients heroes, in one sense, for the future, right? They’re helping to approve the new drugs of the future, and I also find, oftentimes, those are the patients that do best, because they’re getting to try all of the new drugs of the future before they’re approved. And so, I will have patients that are, I call them chronic trialists because they’ll go through all my new drugs before they’re even approved.

And I love it, and they love it, because they do better than the average, because they’re exploring all of the new therapies. And so, I find those patients heroes, and I really appreciate their efforts. I would say, the most important thing about clinical trials is learning about them, right? And being able to ask the questions. “Well, what phase is that trial?” So, Phase I is really testing safety, and finding the right dose for patients. And so, that’s usually a small number of patients, and looking exactly at, does this work? Do we have a biomarker to follow? What’s the best way to use this new drug?

Phase II starts to look at efficacy, as well as looking at side effects. And so, with Phase II, we really look at, what is the effect? Is it better than what we expected? Does it help these patients – is it better than some of the other drugs?

And then, Phase III are usually large trials that are looking at FDA approval. They’re looking for registration with the FDA, getting approval, and being the new standard of care that’s paid for by insurance companies.

Katherine:                  

I’d like to back up a bit and talk about the treatments that are currently available. Let’s start with surgery. What role does that play in treating advanced disease?

Dr. Paller:                   

Surgery is one of the key tools that we use when we’re trying to cure prostate cancer when it’s localized, or just starting to spread. But if it’s too advanced, meaning, spreading to the lymph nodes, we usually don’t recommend surgery. So, surgery is usually used for curative intents, although there is a trial ongoing now, looking at the same question of, is adding surgery to systemic therapy helpful in terms of long-term cure rate, in terms of decreased side effects later, and local symptoms later?

And so, we are asking that question. That is one of the ongoing clinical trials that we’re looking at right now, as a group.

Surgery is terrific. Radiation is terrific. Really working with your team to understand for you, what are the side effects that you would undergo? What are the risks and benefits of each modality that you would like to, or that you’re willing to tolerate? And so, I think the differences between surgery and radiation, for curing patients, are really something that you need to discuss with your provider. The risk of erectile dysfunction, the risk of the local symptoms from the radiation, the risk of having bleeding from your bladder, the risk of bowel problems. Those are all things that that you – urinary incontinence – that you need to discuss with your physician.

Katherine:                  

What are other options that are available now, for patients?

Dr. Paller:                   

For curative intent, the main two treatment options are surgery, radiation. Many people for very localized disease are trying other therapies, such as cryotherapy, and more focal therapies. But really, for curative, the standard is surgery or radiation. And as it gets more advanced, circling back to advanced prostate cancer, we are learning that combination therapy is better. So, adding pills like abiraterone, adding systemic therapies, help patients do better.

So, there’s a big, long list of therapies upfront that we use for metastatic hormone-sensitive prostate cancer. There’s abiraterone, there is apalutamide (Erleada), there’s enzalutamide, and now, darolutamide (Nubeqa).

And in fact, in fit patients that can tolerate chemotherapy for metastatic high-volume prostate cancer patients, we always recommend triple therapy, either with abiraterone, docetaxel, and ADT, or with darolutamide, docetaxel, and ADT, and these patients really seem to do better for longer. The other thing I would add is the PEACE-1 trial, which looked at abiraterone and docetaxel, found that patients would do best by adding growth factor support. And so, that is recommended.

The other thing I want to point out to patients is, I know we’re all eager to get started when we find out we have a diagnosis of metastatic prostate cancer, but sometimes, these therapies are quite tough on the system when you have a lot of cancer in your body, and my recommendation to everybody is, one thing at a time.

So, start the hormone therapy and wait at least 30 days, and in fact, in the PEACE-1 trial, they waited 45 days, right? That allows the testosterone levels to fall, it allows you to adjust to the side effects of hormone deprivation therapy, and it allows your body to be ready for the next line of therapy. And you can add the ADT to second line, such as abiraterone or daro during that time, but not adding the chemo all at once, that really makes a difference.

I find, unfortunately, when patients and their providers don’t follow those strict criteria, as they did in the trial, meaning they start chemo and abiraterone and ADT on day one, the levels of chemotherapy get higher in the bloodstream because testosterone regulates that, and we’ve published on that before. And they end up with terrible side effects from the chemotherapy, such as neutropenic fever, which means you end up in the hospital with a bloodstream infection and a fever, and more neuropathy, meaning numbness and tingling in your hands and feet.

And so, I really caution people to spread those therapies out over the first 90 days, and you’ll do better in terms of side effects, and just as well in terms of overall survival.

Katherine:

Where does hormonal therapy fit into the treatment options, and have there been any advances in hormonal therapy?

Dr. Paller:     

Yes. So, hormonal therapy is the mainstay of how we take care of prostate cancer patients, whether we do this with surgical castration, which is not done very often anymore, or we do it with an LHRH agonist, or we do it with an LHRH antagonist. So, that means that we can do it with medicines that block the signaling, but that tells your body to produce testosterone in various ways. What’s really neat is we’ve made advances, that there are now oral options for some of these therapies.

In particular, there’s a new therapy called Orgovyx, or relugolix, that is an oral LHRH antagonist that locks testosterone and allows us to stop prostate cancer growth. In addition, there are a variety of LHRH agonists that can be given as subcutaneous shots. 

Katherine:                  

Dr. Paller, let’s talk about what goes into deciding on a treatment path. First, what testing helps you understand the patient’s individual disease?

Dr. Paller:                   

Great question.

When I meet a patient, we talked about a few variables. First is, how do they feel? Are they in pain? Are they losing weight? Are they fatigued all the time? Are they able to do things that they enjoy, or not? So, that’s the most important, in terms of, how do they feel, and what are their symptoms?

The next thing we looked at is, what are their labs, right? We look at PSA, but we also look at, is the prostate cancer affecting their organs? Is it affecting their red blood cells, their platelets, their white blood cells? And very importantly, it tells us, by looking at their alkaline phosphatase, if it’s in their bones or not. And we also can look at their labs to see, is it affecting their liver or not. Another thing we monitor is their creatinine or kidney function. Is there a blockage of their important organs down there because the prostate cancer has grown? So, the labs tell me a lot about their body function, and making sure their body is still functioning well.

After we do how they feel, and what their labs are, we also look at imaging. And then, the previous years, we’ve always looked at a standard nuclear medicine bone scan, and also, a CAT scan. And nowadays, we’re really moving towards PSMA, or prostate specific membrane antigen, to help us really identify, at a much more sensitive level, where prostate cancer cells are expressed.

And after we do those main three key things, we start to look at diagnostic tests. We look at different ways of assessing what are their genes. So, one of the first things we do is looking at germline genetic testing to see, what were the genes they were born with? And can those genes help us learn more about their cancer, and how it might progress? And also, how we might treat it better if they have certain genes like BRCA.

The other nice thing about genetic testing, or germline genetic testing, is looking at, if they do have a genetic mutation, or a pathologic variant like BRCA, we are always, always telling families that they should get cascade testing for their familyright? So, if they have a mutation, we recommend that their family members get tested to make sure that they’re not at risk for a cancer. And so, we have them meet with a genetic counselor.

So, in addition to what you’re born with, we also want to know what your cancer has developed, because cancer cells are growing quickly, and they can develop a mutation. And so, we also test the cancer, get genomic testing of the cancer, to look for mutations that we can target with our multiple drugs that we’ve approved to target cancers in certain mutations. So, you have something called MSII, we have immunotherapy for you. If you have DNA repair mutations, we have PARP inhibitors for you, or even carboplatin (Paraplatin) can be added to target patients with DNA repair mutations as well.

And so, there’s a whole variety of tests out there by a multitude of providers, that help us really better understand your cancer.

Katherine:                  

And the treatment options, by the sounds of it.

Dr. Paller:                   

And the treatment options. Yes, there is. There’s a whole variety of it. Yeah.

Katherine:                  

So, what is personalized medicine, Dr. Paller? And how is it achieved?

Dr. Paller:            

Personalized medicine means many things to many different people. I find the most important thing is not forgetting the patient. The patient needs to be their own advocate, and have an advocate there with them, right? Because maybe the best treatment is chemotherapy, hormone therapy, radiation, etc., etc., but maybe you’re 92, and you’ve lived a good life, and you have heart disease, and you might not die of your prostate cancer. And so, overtreating people is just as dangerous as undertreating people.

And so, precision medicine is a whole variety of things, of looking at the whole person, looking at their genes, looking at biomarkers their cancers produce, and looking at what comorbidities they have, right? If you have really bad diabetes, maybe you don’t want me to add steroids to your regimen. If you have a seizure disorder, maybe you don’t want me to add insulin. I wouldn’t, because there’s a seizure risk. If you have various problems, we just need to take those into account and find the best therapy for each individual.

Katherine:                  

I think you’ve covered this, in a sense, but I’m going to ask you the question anyway. Why is it important that patients have a role in making decisions about their care?

Dr. Paller:                   

It is essential that patients have a role in their care so that they are taking ownership and being part of the team, to care for themselves, not to put extra weight or work on the patient, but really, so that they know they’ve made the right choice for them.

Understanding a patient’s priorities are essential. Some patients may not want the side effects of hormone therapy, and they may say, “Hey, I have oligometastatic disease, meaning I just have one spot to my bones, and I’m 80 years old. And Dr. Paller told me that the sub analysis of this triple therapy, new trial, showed that, I’m over 75, I may not benefit as much. And you know what? I don’t want to have the side effects of hormone therapy. I don’t want to lose muscle mass. I don’t want to have hot flashes. I don’t want to have erectile dysfunction.”

“I want to enjoy my life, even if it’s slightly shorter, and it might not be slightly shorter.” And so, I find, having a partnership with a patient to really understand their priorities makes life worth living more, right? So, maybe a patient’s priority is finding time with their grandchildren. Maybe a patient’s priority is getting a PhD. Whatever their patient’s priority is, it is important that we put that to the context of their whole being and helping them really find the best therapy for them, to help them do as well as they can, as long as they can.

Katherine:                  

I think this this leads us very nicely into the next topic, and that’s self-advocacy. While the goal of this program is to help patients insist on better care, there may be factors that impact their access. What common obstacles do patients face?

Dr. Paller:                   

The main obstacle for patients is insurance. Unfortunately, I find that it’s frustrating to not be able to provide patients with oral hormonal therapy if they can’t afford it, because they don’t have insurance, and it’s too expensive. But there are other challenges that patients face, right? If they’re young and don’t have childcare, if they have trouble getting time off their work. But I think one of the major problems is economics, and can they get the same care, and can they advocate for themselves, right? So, another problem is, if you are in a community practice, you might not have access to the top diagnostic testing.

And it’s really important that you advocate for yourself and get a second opinion at an academic center where you can get the best testing and figure out the best path for yourself. And sometimes, if patients are at sites where they’re seeing a generalist, they’re not going to get access to that, because that’s not standard at that hospital.

Katherine:                  

Yeah. Well, what is the medical community doing to help improve access?

Dr. Paller:                   

We are working hard on reaching out into the community. One of the other hats I wear is, I’m Associate Program Director for the Johns Hopkins Clinical Research Network for oncology. And one of my jobs is to find communities that want to open trials at community sites.

These aren’t our super complicated phase I trials. These are often simple Phase II or Phase III trials that patients can participate in, and really get access to new biomarker tests, get access to new treatments, and really be connected to the centralized knowledge that is available at academic centers.

And I think all of ASCO is doing this, I think all the Prostate Cancer Consortium is doing that, I think the PCF is doing this, and we really are – and I even think the drug companies are reaching out and educating primary care doctors, urologists, radiation oncologist patients.

There are a lot of programs we now do that are direct to patient education, so that we’re not dependent on whether or not the doctor has time to explain these things. And so, programs like this are really wonderful at keeping the patients educated and able to advocate for themselves.

Katherine:                  

What diversity in clinical trials? Is that an emphasis for the research community?

Dr. Paller:                   

Absolutely. I think that’s an emphasis across the board in society today.

We are eager to learn more about how patients with different genetic profiles, with different ethnicities, with different socioeconomic backgrounds, are reacting differently to different therapies. If you’re African American, do you respond differently to [treatment] with one study we looked at? If you have a different diet, are you going to respond differently to immunotherapy? And really understanding different demographics is really important to us at this time.

Katherine:                  

Are there resources that patients can turn to that would help them gain better access to healthcare?

Dr. Paller:                   

There are programs that are available either through your local community, or another one that has a nice patient centered education program is NCCN, or the National Comprehensive Cancer Network. They have summaries of your tumor type across the board, and how to best treat it.

They also have a list of experts that helped make those guidelines, so that you could reach out to those centers and know the main centers that are treating your cancer.

Katherine:                  

That’s great advice. Thank you. If a patient is feeling like they aren’t getting the best care, though, what steps should they take to change that?

Dr. Paller:                   

That’s a good question. So, being a self-advocate takes energy, when oftentimes, you’re tired and overwhelmed at your cancer diagnosis. And so, my heart goes out to all of those patients. Really, finding a second opinion, and finding an academic center or a large program that has a prostate cancer focused program, is helpful.

Or whatever your tumor or issue is, going to a center that is a specialist in that, for a second opinion, is often helpful, and can work with your local physician to help get you the care that you need.

Katherine:                  

That’s great information, Dr. Paller. Thank you. As we wrap up, I’d like to get your closing thoughts. How do you feel about the future of prostate cancer care? Are you hopeful? Encouraged?

Dr. Paller:                   

I am so hopeful and encouraged. We are exploding in the number of drugs we have. We are exploding in the number of opportunities and precision medicine drugs that we’re having. This is a wonderful time where we’re combining our understanding of genetics, and biomarkers, and AI, and pathology, and imaging, and I am thrilled.

I think we’re really going to be able to understand which patients should get which drugs without having so much toxicity. And such a high failure rate here, or how do I know who will get the best treatment?

“We’re just going to try it and see.” I don’t want to have to say that in five years. I want to say, “I know this will work, and I can control your symptoms and your side effects.”

And so, I am so excited about the future. I think we’re just making huge strides every day now, and I think this will be a whole new world in the next five years.

Katherine:                  

Dr. Paller, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Paller:                   

Thank you so much, Katherine.

Katherine:                  

And thank you to all of our collaborators.

If you would like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs. To learn more about prostate cancer, and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Dr. Paller. Great information.

PODCAST: Your Path to Empowerment: Multiple Myeloma | Clinical Trials

/in , , , /by

 

Have you ever wanted to a hear a first-hand account from someone who has participated in a clinical trial? Hear from two patients as they describe their experience with enrollment and participation in a trial. Also, keep watching for our LIVE Q&A session with patient panelists and Myeloma expert, Dr. Manni Mohyuddin as they answer questions received from our audience. 

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

PODCAST: CLL Patient Expert Q&A: Start Here

/in , , , , , /by

 

The START HERE program bridges the CLL expert and patient voice, whether you are newly diagnosed, in active treatment or in watch and wait. In this webinar, Empowerment lead Lisa Hatfield and expert Dr. Ryan Jacobs  provide an overview of the latest in CLL, managing CLL side effects and options for CLL progression.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs is a hematologist/oncologist specializing in Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia from Levine Cancer Institute. Learn more about Dr. Jacobs.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Lisa Hatfield:  

Hello and welcome. My name is Lisa Hatfield, your host for this Patient Empowerment Network program. In this important dialogue, we bridge the expert and patient voice 

to enable you and me to feel comfortable asking questions of our healthcare teams with more precision. The world is complicated, as is a cancer diagnosis, but understanding your CLL doesn’t have to be. The goal is to create actionable pathways for getting the most out of CLL treatment and survivorship. Joining me today is Dr. Ryan Jacobs, a CLL expert from Levine Cancer Institute. Thank you very much for joining us today, Dr. Jacobs, we really appreciate you being here and your time and expertise.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Thanks for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Hatifield:

Before we get started, please remember to download the program resource guide via the QR code. There is great information there that will be useful during this program and after. Okay, let’s get started. So, Dr. Jacobs, I’d like to talk about what’s on the chronic lymphocytic leukemia radar, and rather than saying that entire phrase each time, I’m going to refer to it as CLL, because I’m pretty sure I’ll fumble that up. There’s a lot going on in terms of novel therapies and new options, but before we jump into all of that, the tool box that’s expanding, can you introduce CLL and provide an explanation of what it is and what that means for a newly diagnosed patient?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs: 

So chronic lymphocytic leukemia, or CLL, is the most common chronic lymphoma/leukemia. It is really both most of the time. It presents with what we call lymphocytosis, meaning the white blood cell count, and specifically the lymphocyte count is high or elevated. To call it CLL, to make that formal cancer diagnosis, we can generally take a patient’s blood sample and put it through a fancy machine that we call a flow cytometer, that looks for characteristic markers on the outside of the cells, and if there’s a bunch of those cells, we call that a monomorphic population.

So a bunch of those cells that look the same, and they’re B cells, that’s the type of lymphocyte count they are, and they’re over this threshold of 5,000. Then that is the diagnosis right there, we don’t need an invasive procedure. You generally do not need a bone marrow biopsy or a lymph node biopsy. There is in about 15 percent of cases, the disease presents with just in large nymph nodes and the white count is normal. We call that small lymphocytic lymphoma. It’s considered an overlap with CLL, and I’ve had many patients that have started off with SLL and then eventually manifest elevated lymphocyte count later in their disease course. So it is considered an overlap, the treatment is the same for both of those disease entities.So that’s the diagnosis of CLL and how it generally shows up initially. In a nutshell, it’s a cancer of the aging population, average age is 70. I have a lot of patients that ask me, “Why did I get CLL?” And the answer is, we don’t know. It’s that way with most cancers, unfortunately, we don’t know why one person gets a cancer and the other person doesn’t. But it obviously has something to do with the aging effect on the DNA of the B lymphocytes because of how much more common it is as patients get older.

Lisa Hatifield:

Thank you for that overview, Dr. Jacobs. We do have CLL patients who are watching this who are newly diagnosed, they may be in active treatment, they may be in remission, they may be managing their CLL just fine right now in their lives. So we’re along the whole spectrum of CLL, so thank you for that overview. We know that therapies are evolving faster, hopefully faster than patients are relapsing, which is a good thing. So when they do relapse, chances are there will be a new option for this patient. But a CLL cure still remains elusive. So, Dr. Jacobs, if you can speak to…we’ll just jump right into some of the newer, the novel therapies and things that are being investigated with CLL treatment. If you can just speak to some of those newer therapies, the novel pathways and targets that are currently under investigation with CLL, we’d appreciate that.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Sure. We’ve come a long way in how we are managing this common cancer that’s benefiting a lot of patients. And as mentioned, with this cancer being one that is more common in the older population, we do know that the population of the United States specifically is getting older, there’s going to be more 70-year-olds. So these breakthroughs are helping a growing number of CLL patients.

Before 2014, really outside of a clinical trial, the only way we could treat CLL Is with combinations of chemotherapy and an immune therapy, like a monoclonal antibody called Rituximab, that was kind of our first, what we would call targeted treatment outside of chemotherapy that we had, and it was, like targeted treatments are, well tolerated.  It was an antibody that targets B cells specifically. So we were combining it with chemo, we would call that chemoimmunotherapy, and it helped a lot of CLL patients. But for many, those were poor prognostic markers in particular, and those with relapse disease, chemotherapy was not very helpful, and it was quite toxic in many circumstances. So we’ve been fortunate that since 2014, we’ve had a lot of new treatment options, and they’re targeted therapies. It’s not like non-specific cytotoxic chemotherapy, these are treatments that have been developed with specific targets in mind that are unique to the B-cell neoplasm, the B cell cancer, the CLL.

And the first of these that really changed everything was a BTK inhibitor called ibrutinib, that we got in 2014. Initially, we can only use it in the relapse setting, but eventually, in 2016, we could start treating patients as a first line of therapy with ibrutinib (Imbruvica). And then in 2019, we had a newer version of BTK inhibitor, we call those second-generation BTK inhibitors. That drug was acalabrutinib (Calquence). And it eventually was shown in a head-to-head study to be just as effective as ibrutinib in a relapsed patient population, but it had less side effects than ibrutinib. So in specifically, atrial fibrillation, hypertension. Cardiac toxicities overall were one that they really focused on in that study. So as a whole, when we were choosing BTK inhibitors, we were shifting away from ibrutinib, shifting to acalabrutinib, and then just as…earlier this year, we had a third BTK inhibitor, zanubrutinib (Brukinsa), that was approved. It’s also considered a second-generation BTK inhibitor like ibrutinib and acalabrutinib.

It treats CLL in the same way, in how it inhibits BTK or Bruton’s tyrosine kinase, that’s overexpressed in CLL cells. But it also has a favorable toxicity profile when compared head to head with ibrutinib, and now we have two second generation options between a acalabrutinib and zanubrutinib. And it’s not really easy for us to know between those two, which is “better.” When we decide to treat with a BTK inhibitor, we’re usually choosing between those two at this point, and we’re trying to personalize the decision for the patient, and there’s some different factors they can get involved in that complicated decision. Luckily, we are not limited to BTK as a target. I mentioned earlier, we have monoclonal antibody, rituximab (Rituxan) like the one I mentioned, but a newer version of Rituximab, a more potent version, obinutuzumab (Gazyva). Is one that we have available along with a Bcl-2 inhibitor, venetoclax. That is now, as of 2018, improved in the frontline CLL setting, also approved in the relapse setting, of course, since 2016.

And we use venetoclax with a monoclonal antibody like obinutuzumab, and together they are a very potent combination that cause pretty rapid cancer cell death, as opposed to the BTK inhibitors that more put the cancer to sleep and require daily dosing indefinitely for as long as the drugs work. And remarkably, the data on BTK inhibitors tells us that should work for many, many years. They’ve been following some of the patients that got treatment in the first line setting, and eight years out, there’s still more than 50 percent of the patients are free of progression, so they can’t even quote an average response time yet. With eight years of follow-up on the early ibrutinib patients. The difference with venetoclax combined with a monoclonal antibody like obinutuzumab, is because it causes a more rapid cell death, you can give it on a time-defined schedule. So we tend to give it for one year in the first-line setting and two years in the relapse setting, and the antibody portion is just given for the first six months.

The BTK inhibitors and venetoclax are oral treatments, so that’s a big win for patients to avoid the infusion center for those treatments, but the IV antibody treatments will still require some trips to the infusion center if you’re doing that combination with venetoclax. For most patients, those two targets are what we’re choosing between, and we try to personalize the decision to the patient. And again, that’s a very complicated discussion on what is “best”. And we use things like the prognostic work-up, medical problems that the patients already have, medicines that patients are on, to help make the best treatment decision for our CLL patients. But those…for in terms of how well that treats the CLL, both of those are considered equivalent options for the large majority of CLL patients. We’ve got some things on the horizon, but in general, those are two targets that we have at this point. There is for relapsed patients, PI3 kinase inhibitors that are still FDA approved at this time, that aren’t quite as effective and more toxic, so we sometimes think about using one of those targeted therapies if a patient has already progressed on a BTK inhibitor in venetoclax class.

In the future, we are looking towards combining BTK and Bcl-2 inhibitor. Like for example, there’s been studies already done that I’ve put many patients on, with ibrutinib-venetoclax, and I believe there’s a question about that later. There’s also an ongoing study that I have opened at my institution that’s looking at acalabrutinib and venetoclax. So taking these two pills together in a time-defined manner, so you don’t have to take the BTK inhibitor indefinitely. And then there’s some therapies that have already been improved in other lymphomas, and we wonder if they’re going to have a role in CLL eventually. So we now have bispecific antibodies, so that’s taking a drug like Rituximab or obinutuzumab and adding a T-cell engager to it so it has two targets or it’s bispecific. And we have that drug, mosunetuzumab (Lunsumio) available in follicular lymphoma, and there are several others in development, and we’ll see how their role comes into play in CLL as well. As well as CAR T-cell therapy, where we take a patient’s T cells and genetically engineer them to attack the cancer. That’s now an approved therapy for many different kinds of lymphomas and multiple myeloma as well. So we wonder if that’s going to have a role in CLL.

But I think for the foreseeable future, it’s going to be looking first at BTK and then Bcl-2 inhibition, or vice versa. And we don’t really know which is better to go first, we think they’re both…they can both be sequenced one after the other. And then maybe it will have some of these other breakthroughs coming in and helping for after patients need something beyond those therapies. And there’s probably going to be a lot of patients that never need anything beyond those options, those initial couple of targets, because they do so well. I think in the most immediate future, the approval that is going to give us a new great option is going to be for an alternative site BTK inhibitor, or it’s also called a non-covalent BTK inhibitor.

And there’s this drug called pirtobrutinib, it has been approved in mantle cell lymphoma and likely will get approved in CLL this year. And that drug specifically is a BTK inhibitor that still works even in patients that have, say, progressed on ibrutinib or acalabrutinib or zanubrutinib. That will be a new target available for CLL patients and probably pretty quickly become one of the go-to drugs that we use for relapsed CLL patients that have already been treated with a BTK…with a traditional BTK inhibitor. So growing number of options and it’s really great for our CLL patients.

Lisa Hatfield:

Thank you for that overview again, Dr. Jacobs. It does sound like there are a lot of new therapies coming out, especially for relapsed patients, super exciting for them. And this is actually a great time to jump right into questions. We have many questions from patients that different patients have submitted. But first, I want to remind everybody that this program is not a substitute for medical care. Please consult with your medical team for advice on your own condition or disease. And, Dr. Jacob, I was taking notes as you were talking, because you had spoken a little bit about a combination of the BTK inhibitor and Bcl-2 inhibitor with venetoclax. And I did a little research last night before I talked with you, and it sounds like that is something that the CAPTIVATE trial is investigating. 

So that’s exciting, and a patient asked about that, what that trial is. And it’s music to my ears as a cancer patient to hear something like “fixed duration,” it’s also investigating a fixed duration so patients and have maybe a bit of a medication vacation. So can you speak to that trial a little bit and explain what it is a little bit on how that might benefit patients with CLL?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Yeah. So one of the best elements of treating with venetoclax is that it produces a deep level of remission in many patients. In fact, when given with the monoclonal antibody obinutuzumab, to CLL patients receiving that treatment as a first line of therapy for their CLL, about three-quarters of CLL patients will get to so deep of a remission that we call them minimal residual disease-negative. And that’s a blood test or a bone marrow test, but more easily done as a blood test, where we can look to a sensitivity of one in 10,000 white cells and determine if there’s any CLL in those 10,000 cells. We can actually go deeper than that, but we say, we call patients negative if they’re less than one in 10,000. And so 75 percent of patients will get to that depth of remission just with obinutuzumab for six months along with venetoclax for a year. So when researchers saw that, they recognized that we could probably stop treatment in those patients getting venetoclax because venetoclax yields these deep responses. And then the next kind of thought was, well, could we give a BTK inhibitor with venetoclax, but also over a defined treatment timeline and maybe get some of the remarkable benefits of treating with a BTK inhibitor but not get stuck being on therapy for years and years.

So the CAPTIVATE study was the first really to, in a large Phase II manner, look at that combination in a younger patient population, it was for patients 70 and younger. And it wasn’t in a high risk or anything, it was all comers. But they did have to be 70 and younger and getting treatment as a first-line therapy. So the combination was very effective. As of the last American Society of Hematology meeting in December, four years of data was reported and a large percentage of patients were still free of progression, over 80 percent still free of progression. And that’s three years off therapy at that point.

It was well-tolerated, not many patients had to come off due to toxicity. It was, in fact, less than 10 percent had really significant toxicities requiring discontinuation. So it was a well-tolerated effective treatment. The issue was, it’s only a Phase II study, and the FDA generally requires larger Phase III studies for approval. It is an approved combination in Europe. There was a study done, a larger Phase III study done, but the FDA did not like its comparator arm.  So I honestly…I hate to say it, but I honestly don’t know if we’re going to see ultimately the approval in the United States of ibrutinib with venetoclax, because with most oncologists in the United States moving on to the second-generation BTK inhibitors, I think it’s more likely that we’re going to see money invested into clinical trials looking into combinations with acalabrutinib and venetoclax, and zanubrutinib and venetoclax, as opposed to investigating in larger scales ibrutinib-venetoclax.

I do have one of those studies to open at my institution, the acalabrutinib-venetoclax combination, it’s called the MAJIC trial, and it is a large Phase III study that if it’s successful, I think would lead to the approval of giving those two drugs together. But then the extra credit question is, who should get the combination and who should get the drugs separately? And we don’t have an answer for that right now, and that’s a long topic of debate among CLL specialists.

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Well, thank you. So for that trial you spoke of that you’re conducting right now, is that…is it only relapsed patients who are eligible for that? Or is that for front-line therapy?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

No, this is a first-line therapy that the MAJIC study is.

Lisa Hatifield:

Oh good. That’s promising for patients too.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

And it has a really good comparator arm, so that won’t be a problem that the standard arm on that study is venetoclax plus obinutuzumab, so it’s comparing against one of our best treatments, and so we really will get the answer of does it look better to use the BTK with the Bcl-2? Or is it not really that much better than just giving an venetoclax with obinutuzumab? And then the one obvious element that I didn’t mention that would be nice for most patients in addition to being efficacious and well-tolerated is if you could get an all-oral combination. Of course, venetoclax with obinutuzumab, you’re still getting quite a few infusions with the obinutuzumab over the first six months. So that’s a lot of time in the infusion center that you could avoid with just the combination of two oral targeted agents. So that would be a breakthrough for patients too, I think.

Lisa Hatfield:

Well, you commented also on something that’s really important for patients to know, and that is that if you go into a clinical trial, you won’t be given nothing for cancer clinical trials, you’re going to be given the standard of care or whatever it’s being compared to. So for patients who are considering that.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

That’s a Phase III. Yeah, for Phase III. If you go on an earlier phase trial, you know exactly what you’re getting. There’s usually not any randomization for earlier phase studies, you just get the intended treatment.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for explaining that. So we have some pretty specific questions, and we have a patient who wrote in and asked, “What is the difference between IGHV-mutated and IGHV-unmutated CLL? And can you talk about treatment considerations for those?”

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Yeah. So that’s part of a bigger discussion around the prognostic work-up of CLL and not all CLL is the same, and we’ve done a really good job of figuring out tests to separate out the CLL patients that tend to behave more aggressively and respond to certain kind of therapies, versus those that are more of what we call indolent or slow growing and respond to other kinds of therapies. I do want to say, I haven’t mentioned it yet, we still don’t treat CLL if it’s not causing any problems. And about half of patients get diagnosed as sort of an accident, and they get a blood test for something else, and their white count is elevated, and that leads to a diagnosis, but they feel fine. We still leave those patients alone. Even with these good treatment options we have, we recognize that there are a select percentage of CLL patients that don’t ever need treatment, and so we don’t just want to start treatment in everybody.

But I do still like to check this prognostic work-up, even if I’m not going to start treatment, but I make sure and ask the patient if that’s what…iIn line with what they want. But certainly, if you’re going to start treatment, you’re required by guidelines to check a prognostic work-up, and I would really encourage the CLL patients tuning in to ask their oncologist, “What is my prognostic work-up?” if they’re going to start treatment.  Because of the oncologists, unfortunately, that have to deal with lots of other cancers, maybe don’t always know the right test to send. I’m very spoiled in that I get to just treat lymphoma and specifically focus a lot of my research in CLL and get to stay up with all this. I don’t know how a general oncologist keeps up with everything, honestly.

But the big three tests are going to be the FISH analysis, fluorescence in situ hybridization. And then IGHV mutational analysis, and then also a TP53 mutation analysis. And I don’t really have time to go through all of those, but IGHV is the question I get a lot. “What is that?” It’s one of these rare findings where it’s actually normal to have a mutation at the IGHV. IGHV stands for immune globulin heavy chain variable region, and it is usually mutated in B lymphocytes because it’s part of the process of a mature lymphocyte that is able to make a lot of different kinds of antibodies. And it undergoes somatic hypermutation, is what it’s called, as the B cell matures. Generally in oncology, the more mature a cancer is, the less aggressive it behaves and usually the easier it is to manage, and that is the case with CLL. So think of an unmutated IGHV CLL cancer as a more primitive or a more immature cancer clone, and as such, it is harder to treat.

In about half of patients will be found to be unmuted at the IGHV and historically, all we had was chemo and we knew these patients weren’t going to respond for near as long as the IGHV-mutated patients were to chemo. What’s nice is, with our targeted treatments, particularly the long-term data with the BTK inhibitors, it doesn’t look like it matters whether you’re mutated or you’re unmutated. So that’s one of the really great things with our new treatments for CLL, is it has, the people that have benefited the most are the ones that were doing the worst, so that’s great. It’s not just the patients that were already doing well, that are doing even better.

Lisa Hatfield:

So I just want to take a step back and kind of looking at this through the lens of a newly diagnosed CLL patient. You’d mention that sometimes you don’t treat every CLL patient. So is there something, if you find a patient who does not need treatment, is there something you tell the patients as far as regular monitoring? Will you monitor them to see if it progresses to the point where it requires treatment?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Yeah. And we’re fortunate that this is a blood cancer that most of the time we can follow with a simple blood count and follow the white count, follow how the…follow the health of the bone marrow by looking at things like anemia, low red cell count, or a low platelet count that we call thrombocytopenia. So that’s the easiest thing to follow, but I’m also talking with my patients and examining my patients. I want to know if their length nodes are causing them a lot of pain, because we should treat that, there’s no reason they should live in pain.I want to know if they’re waking up drenched in sweat all the time, if their quality of life has been really affected by that. Or are a dramatic amount of fatigue that we can’t explain by some other cause. And I also, of course, examine the nodes myself and make sure that there’s no alarming findings there. So that’s really what’s involved with checking on a CLL patient that’s on active surveillance, that’s what we call it. And there’s a list of criteria that the oncologist should know in terms of deeming who needs treatment and who doesn’t. And so we’re kind of following the same rules, so to speak, in terms of who gets treated for CLL.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay, thank you. So we have a patient who asked a series of questions here, and I think you already…you spoke pretty well to the role of the BTK inhibitors in treating CLL. I’m going to kind of clump these together.  So I guess three questions. What treatments do you think are the most beneficial for patients whose CLL has relapsed? What are the poor prognostic indicators for CLL? And along the same lines, what are the high-risk genetic markers for CLL?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

It’s a little more complicated discussion in the first line setting because both are options. At this point in time, we haven’t been…at least those that are, I would say, staying up to date on the CLL data, we have not been using chemotherapy for a long time. So most of the relapsed patients will have seen either one of the BTK inhibitors or venetoclax. And so what we do in the second-line setting is just use the other option that they haven’t seen. The data tells us, when you look at what treatments are being prescribed, most patients are going on BTK inhibitors, and they have been around longer than venetoclax in general. So for a lot of patients, that relapsed treatment is going to be venetoclax. Because that has the best data in terms of treating patients that have progressed on a BTK inhibitor like ibrutinib or acalabrutinib or zanubrutinib.

In the near future, we’ll have pirtobrutinib (Jaypirca) and so maybe, maybe some will get that drug before venetoclax, and that’s probably okay. And so we’ll have that additional option. The complicated patients, and I’ve alluded to this, or what do we do after BTK and Bcl-2? What are we left with? I mentioned PI3 kinase, that’s not a great option. There’s still stem cell transplant out there for young patients that are running out of options. Clinical trial is really what I would like to emphasize there.  If you’re a patient that can get to a high volume referral cancer center with a CLL specialist, I would do that. If you have seen BTK inhibitor and venetoclax and are looking for other options.

Lisa Hatfield:  

Great, thank you. So the next question is actually a really good question, I think we can broaden it a little bit. But the question is, “How can I ask my doctor to make sure I am being tested for serum markers?” And more broadly, I think a lot of patients are a little bit nervous about asking questions of their doctor, because they don’t want to feel like they’re questioning their expertise or doubting them. So how in general can we ask our doctor questions if we hear something? Or how we approach our doctor with those types of questions?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

So I mentioned asking your doctor, “What’s my prognostic markers?” I think this is probably the easiest way to get that information. And your doctor should be checking those. The question comes up like, what are the “high-risk” markers? We talked about mutated versus unmutated. Thankfully, our novel treatments that doesn’t seem to matter. Same goes with…there’s on FISH there used to be, if you found three copies of chromosome 12, that’s called trisomy 12, that doesn’t seem to matter With our newer treatments. A deletion at chromosome 11, again, used to not do as well with chemo. Novel therapies…doesn’t seem to matter. The one that is still potentially affecting outcomes, even with our novel treatments, are chromosome 17 aberrations, which stately are rare in the initial diagnostic setting. That or a TP53. A deletion at 17p or TP53 mutation probably is only going to be around 10 percent of patients or so. And in the relapse setting though, that number goes up because of the more aggressive cancers emerge, we call that clonal evolution. So maybe in the 20-ish percent range. These patients, we tend to prioritize indefinite therapies first, because it seems like these patients do better if you keep treatment going, as opposed to interrupted therapies like venetoclax. And so we tend to treat those patients with a drug like acalabrutinib or zanubrutinib first and then think about the venetoclax later for those patients.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Okay. And just to clarify, for patients too, I know that a lot of cancers, there are discussions about the 17 deletion, 17p, and then also the TP53 gene. So if I understand correctly, the TP53 gene is housed on chromosome number 17. So if that is missing, then that patient may be missing that gene, that is considered a tumor suppressor gene, which we want. Is that correct?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Right. So it’s either missing, which is what we see on FISH with a deletion, or it can be mutated and that’s the next gen sequencing, and often it will be both in those patients.

We think with indefinite, there’s some really good data that was just released with zanubrutinib. When they looked at 17p-deleted patients, there’s some long-term follow-up with ibrutinib-treated 17p-deleted patients. With chemo these patients would only get about a year or so, but we’re getting maybe even close to normal outcomes with long-term BTK. But we do know if you just give them a year of venetoclax and obinutuzumab for six months and then stop, they do relapse quicker than the other patients. So they relapse after about four years. As opposed to with five years of follow-up with that first line venetoclax approach, there are 62 percent of patients are still free of progression.

Lisa Hatfield:

Oh wow, okay. Thanks for explaining that too. I know that that chromosome 17 and the TP53 gene, that’s talked about in a lot of different cancers and it often come up, “How are those connected?” So thanks for just describing that a bit. So this patient is asking, “For patients who may be eligible for BTK inhibitors, are there specific comorbidities that might contribute to adverse side effects?”

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Yeah, so we screen…all BTK inhibitors have some cardiac toxicity. They have been shown with the second-generation BTK inhibitors to have less cardiac toxicity than ibrutinib, specifically atrial fibrillation. So if you have atrial fibrillation, maybe that’s a reason why you might go on venetoclax first as opposed to a BTK inhibitor. But it’s not a contraindication to getting a BTK inhibitor if the atrial fibrillation is under good control.  Other cardiac risk factors would include difficult to control hypertension at baseline, or heart failure. These are all things that might make us think twice about using a BTK inhibitor as our first therapy, because venetoclax has no cardiac toxicities. The other thing to consider is BTK inhibitors all to a degree have, and I describe it to patients, like an aspirin-like effect on the platelets. They do interfere with the platelet binding, which so universally, patients will know to varying levels some easier bruising.

And if patients are on, because of say, they’ve had a heart attack in the past and they’re on aspirin at baseline, or what would even be more concerning if they were on a drug like Plavix because they’ve had a stent placed, that would be something that would really concern me and would definitely push me more towards venetoclax, that again, doesn’t have those anti-platelet interactions. Also, patients who are on blood thinners because of a history of blood clot or atrial fibrillation, there is the potential increased risk for bleeding and bruising there as well. None of these are absolute contraindications, they’re just all what goes into the blender, if you will, of putting lots of information in and coming up with the best treatment decision as personalized for the CLL patient. We’re blessed to have multiple options, but it does make it more of a challenge to find the “best” option.

Lisa Hatfield:

Yeah. Thank you for that. We have several questions from a couple of patients regarding side effects. So the question, “How long will my side effects of my CLL treatment last? And what can be done to reduce those?” And specifically, a patient is asking if there’s a connection with CLL and gastrointestinal issues?

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

So all of the treatments, including venetoclax, the BTK inhibitors, will have diarrhea listed as a possible side effect. It’s usually low grade. But generally, I have found the gastrointestinal toxicities abate some over time. So if they are present earlier, if you’re able to stick with therapy, they do tend to get better. For the once daily meds, I encourage those patients to try to take the drug in the evening. The GI tract tends to be less active later in the day, and you can sleep off some of the potential gastrointestinal issues. So I’ve had success there. Sometimes we have to lower the dose to just find the best dose to help mitigate some of these. There’s the antidiarrheals that can help if you need them. Imodium. I had a patient I saw earlier this week that Imodium didn’t really work, but good old Pepto Bismol did the trick from time to time. So certainly though, if the gastrointestinal issues are significantly affecting quality of life, we need to come up with a new plan, whether that’s reducing the dose or changing to a different option. Specifically, what’s nice about the BTK inhibitors is they all have data that show if you’re having problems with one, you can switch to the other and likely not have the same problem occur. So that’s nice.

Lisa Hatfield:

Have you ever seen any uncharacteristic side effects several times in your practice? Anything really unique? I’m just curious about that.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:

Yeah. There’s always the patients, they can have a more severe form of maybe, of a more common side effect, like the…we were talking about diarrhea, I’ve had a patient that actually had a difficult, with venetoclax, had difficulties with the stool incontinence. So that was kind of a severe form of that. It wasn’t so much diarrhea that was the problem. But we were able to ultimately mitigate that with a dose reduction. I would say the way, particularly if it’s an unusual side effect, the best thing to do is to take a break. If it’s a serious side effect that needs to be addressed and it’s affecting quality of life or causing problems, take a break from the treatment. If you take a week off these treatments, particularly venetoclax, taking breaks doesn’t matter. We like not to take long breaks with the BTK inhibitors. But if you take a week off, these drugs don’t have very long half-lives. So if the issue is not getting any better and you’ve been off of treatment for a week, it’s unlikely that that issue is coming from the treatment. So that’s a way I try to sort through some…particularly if they’re unusual side effects sometimes. And certainly, if we deem that the issue is connected to the treatment, I’ll usually try lowering the dose before just giving up.

Lisa Hatfield:

Okay. Thank you. A patient had asked, and I love this question because I often wonder myself when I get up in the morning, my bones are creaking and popping, “How do you know the difference between,” this patient’s talking about fatigue. How does a patient discern, “Well, this is fatigue from my cancer or my treatment,” versus just normal aging? Whether it’s fatigue or bruising or any side effect.

Dr. Ryan Jacobs:  

Yeah. Fatigue is a really…I had an attending physician when I was in my training that said, “Treating fatigue makes me fatigued.” But it’s hard. If it’s really the only problem the CLL patient is having, it can be. All those other problems I had mentioned earlier, the low red cells, the low platelets, the painful nodes, the night sweats, I with close to 100 percent certainty know I can fix those with treatment.Fatigue, I’m not as confident when that’s the only issue that a patient’s having. I try to differentiate between fatigue from other causes and old age, and specifically to CLL. 

They try to put it as a metric and say, if you’re having to spend half the day or more just lying around and you’re not able to do your normal activities of daily living, like that’s a severe level of fatigue and treatment should be considered.I’m looking for somewhat of a precipitous decline, not necessarily just kind of the gradual fatigue that you might more relate to aging. The problem with treating fatigue is you’ll look, if you look at the possible side effects of all of these medicines I talked about, fatigue will be a potential side effect.So you’re sometimes trading one problem and getting another, or maybe the fatigue does get better, but then the patient has some different side effect that’s even worse than the fatigue. So it’s hard to really help when fatigue’s the only issue. But certainly, I have helped some patients with fatigue. We don’t have a test that we can do to know for sure is the fatigue coming from the cancer, or is it coming from something else. 

Lisa Hatfield:

Great. Well, that wraps up our program for today. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Jacobs.  I am Lisa Hatfield from Patient Empowerment Network.

PODCAST: CAR T-Cell Therapy Care Partners | What Do You Need to Know About the Process?

/in , , , /by

 

What is the role of the care partner when a loved one is undergoing CAR T-cell therapy? Registered nurse and transplant coordinator Sarah Meissner is joined by Adrienne, a care partner, as they discuss the importance of care partners in the CAR T-cell therapy process. They review key questions to ask the healthcare team, explain patient side effects to monitor for, and share resources that can help support care partners throughout their loved one’s recovery period.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today, we’re going to discuss the role that care partners play in supporting their loved ones who are going through CAR T-cell therapy. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this webinar contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the program. At the end of this webinar, you will receive a link to a program survey. This will allow you to provide feedback about your experience today and it will help us plan future webinars. 

Finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. 

Well, let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Sarah Meissner. Sarah, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Sarah Meissner:

Hi. My name is Sarah Meissner. I am a transplant and CAR T coordinator at the Colorado Blood Cancer Institute in Denver. And I have been working with blood cancer patients for 13 years and in my current role for 8. 

Katherine:

Excellent. Thank you so much for being with us today. And here to share the care partner perspective is Adrienne. Adrienne, welcome to the program. 

Adrienne:

Thank you for having me. 

Katherine:

So, let’s begin by learning more about Sarah’s role. Sarah, can you explain what you do as a transplant coordinator at CBCI? 

Sarah Meissner:

Of course. So, I like to say that as a coordinator, I am kind of the travel agent of the CAR T process. So, I meet with the patients when they are determined to be a candidate for CAR T-cell therapy.  

And I act as kind of the intermediary between the patient and the care team. I help them get set up for all of their appointments as well as provide education for what’s going to be occurring. 

 Katherine:

Okay. So, when someone is undergoing CAR T-cell therapy, who are the essential members on their healthcare team besides you?  

Sarah Meissner:

We have a pretty big care team. So, of course, we have the physician who is kind of at the helm for determining the care plan. We also have financial coordinators, social workers, dieticians, as well as the nursing team who will be providing the care to the patient. 

Katherine:

So, how many people could be on a team?  

Sarah Meissner:

It could be as many as 10. It just depends on the individual patient’s needs and how different people can help. 

Katherine:

How do you, specifically, work with CAR T-cell patients and care partners? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, I am their main contact during the process. So, any questions that come up that I can help with, I’m there via phone, email, in person meetings. I also am big in education. So, sitting with the patient when they’re in clinic and helping them understand what this treatment is, why we’re doing it, what they can expect and just helping them through the process. 

Katherine:

Great. Adrienne, I’d like to turn to now to you and find out more about your experience. How did all of this begin for you and your husband? 

Adrienne:

This all began with my husband and I, we both are very active, and we work out a lot. And he had some pain in his lower back and his groin area. 

And we started going to physical therapy and a chiropractor. And the chiropractor was doing besides just chiropractic, he also did physical therapy stuff, too. His pain wasn’t getting any better. And after a few months, he called to get an MRI and that’s when they found his myeloma was in the MRI. Because of his age, he was diagnosed in 2018 at I’m trying to think how old he was. He was around 37. So, it was a very early diagnosis maybe but he definitely was on the young side of having this kind of cancer. So, that’s how we found out.  

And then after that, it was just kind of a whirlwind on how we would care for him and what we needed to do to get him better. 

Katherine:

Yeah. It must have been hard.  

Adrienne:

Yeah. It was hard. 

Katherine:

What was the process like for you as his main care partner?  

Adrienne:

My role once he was diagnosed was just to do everything I could to find out. We didn’t really know about the disease before. So, to find out what the best care for him was. We did a lot of research. We ended up going to several doctors before deciding what treatment plan we were going to go with. 

And then, he had some ups and downs, some failed treatments. And that’s where we went into CAR T, because we had so many failed treatments before.  

Katherine:

Did you feel like you were doing a lot of research? Were you doing a lot of homework Googling stuff? 

Adrienne:

Well, kind of trying to but we were also told not to do that too much, because it’s always the worst-case scenario online. But we did that somewhat and we got as much information from each institute we went to. And we went to, like I said, we went through three, and then we ended up at CBCI at the end where we are now.   

So, we started to discover that the first few lines of treatment were pretty standard. When you’re put into a situation where you find out your spouse has cancer, all you want to do is you want to find the magic miracle that’s going to cure them. And we did have to just go through the steps of standard care first. And we’re hoping that this CAR T-cell works. It’s working really well right now.  

Katherine:

I was just going to ask you, how are you and your husband doing now? 

Adrienne:

We’re doing pretty good. He’s still very tired. He’s, actually, taking a nap right now. And he has ups and downs. He definitely feels a lot better overall. He is getting back to normal life. But there are times where he just doesn’t feel quite right and has some physical pain and some cognitive issues. 

And we don’t really know if that’s from CAR T alone or if it’s also just from the last five years of having chemo and bone marrow transplant and all of the care before the CAR T-cell. 

Katherine:

Sarah, can you answer that question about cognitive difficulties that Adrienne’s husband is having? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. So, it is pretty common to have what we call chemo brain after any treatment really. And in the case of Adrienne’s husband, he’s had several rounds of chemotherapy going into the CAR T treatment. So, it can be kind of an accumulative effect of all of that. And it is something that people struggle with post-treatment. 

It’s kind of a brain fog, not remembering things. So, working with the team and neurologists can be helpful in some cases. So, that is something that we see. 

Katherine:

Well, let’s shift the conversation a bit to learn more about how the CAR T-cell therapy process works. Sarah, would you walk us through the typical path? 

Sarah Meissner:

Of course. So, it is a pretty protracted treatment. It starts off when the patient is determined to be a CAR T-cell candidate. 

At that point, we are looking at getting testing to confirm that eligibility so based off of disease process as well as performance status and organ function. So, there are a series of tests that are done, and then those are sent to the insurance company in order to obtain authorization for treatment. After we have received the authorization, then the patient consents for treatment with their physician where we review the plan of care, side effects, risks, benefits, all of that. And then the T-cell collection takes place. So, this is a one day, outpatient procedure. We put a temporary catheter into the patient that goes into their neck and we use this to collect the T cells. 

So, the patient gets hooked up to an apheresis machine, which kind of looks like a dialysis machine. And it filters the patient’s blood.  

It takes blood out of the patient’s body, goes into the machine into a giant centrifuge where the blood is separated into different densities. And then, the T-cells are extracted from the density of the blood where it is and then, taken out and collected in a bag. This is a three- to four-hour process usually and then, when we are finished, we are left with a bag of T cells. Those T cells are then shipped off to a manufacturing site for the specific pharmaceutical company that is going to be manufacturing the patient’s T-cells. And that can take anywhere from three to eight weeks depending on the product.  

During this time period, most patients have an active blood cancer that is going to need some treatment while we’re waiting for those cells. So, it is something we call bridging therapy. They may or may not receive that depending on what’s going on in their case.  

After the T cells are manufactured, they get shipped back to our center as a frozen block. And we have the patient come back in. They get a few days of chemotherapy. We call this lymphodepleting chemotherapy. So, this isn’t chemo that’s meant to treat the patient’s disease but to suppress their immune system so that when we put these CAR T cells back into their body, the patient’s immune system doesn’t fight them off before they can do their job. So, that’s typically two or three days depending on which products the patient is getting and which disease is being treated.  

Then, they get a few days off and then, that frozen block of cells is brought out of the freezer, brought to the patient, thawed in a water bath that looks kind of like a hot dog cooker. 

 Katherine:

That’s an odd image. 

Sarah Meissner:

There is water in there that’s heated to body temperature and the frozen block of cells is thawed.  

And then, those cells are infused into the patient’s body and go to work to fight the patient’s cancer. 

Katherine:

What is the care partner’s role in helping the patient through this process? And why are care partners so critical for a patient’s recovery? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, the care partner is a huge part of this process. After the cells are infused, there is a 30-day close monitoring period. And it’s a requirement for our center that the patient have a 24/7 caregiver during that time. There are a lot of side effects that can happen, and the patient is not going to be able to drive for two months. 

So, they need somebody with them at all times to be monitoring for these symptoms as well as bringing them to their appointments, helping them with their medications, day-to-day stuff at home as well. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, if you don’t mind, what sort of side effects did your husband have?   

Adrienne:

He had from the immunosuppressing chemotherapy, he had really low numbers for a while and that just made him feel pretty bad. And he didn’t have any really bad side effects where we had to go to the hospital. Well, I guess we did a few times. He had just a little bit of fever, which you have to report and make sure that it’s okay. 

So, we did have to go twice. But it really didn’t end up being anything too bad. He did have a fall down the stairs at our house. So, if we did it different, I think because we had to be there every day for two weeks and the monitoring, I think that we would probably have rented a hotel that didn’t have these stairs just because he’s used to going up and down the stairs, but I don’t know if he just lost his footing. But it was extremely scary with everything else that he was going through. And that might have been part of the cognitive thing. I feel like most of his side effects, actually, started hitting months after the cognitive things. 

But the stress was more on just caring for him and making sure that he was okay and just being ready just in case something happened. 

Katherine:

Yeah. It’s like being on high alert 24/7. 

Adrienne:

Correct. 

Katherine:

Sarah, could you describe some of the common side effects? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. So, there are two main sets of side effects that we’re looking for with CAR T therapy. The first is something called cytokine release syndrome. So, this happens when the CAR T cells latch onto those cancer cells and kill them and stuff gets put out into the patient’s blood stream. That can cause what’s called a cytokine response. And it’s, basically, proteins that cause inflammation. So, common side effects that we see with that are fever, low blood pressure, high heart rate. 

Some people need some oxygen. It looks very similar to what we would see in sepsis or a severe infection. The good news about that is there is a medication that’s very effective in treating cytokine release syndrome. And so, that’s why it’s important for the caregiver to notice these things and bring them into the hospital so they can get that treatment right away. The other set of side effects is something called neurotoxicity. So, if you think of the brain as a group of wires that is sending signals throughout the body, with neurotoxicity, those wires can kind of get jumbled. They’re not necessarily cut. This isn’t an irreversible thing. 

They get jumbled and can kind of mix up those signals. So, we can see patients that are confused. Patients can have seizures. We start everybody on anti-seizure medication as a prevention method. They can get a tremor and we can see changes in their handwriting. 

So, we assess for this twice a day during those first 14 days by asking them a simple set of five questions. To name certain objects, to count back from 100 by 10, ask them what day it is, that kind of stuff and then, to write out a sentence. And we can see subtle changes in that functioning in the handwriting. So, this like the cytokine release syndrome, if we start to see it, there are medications that we can use to treat it. We usually put people in the hospital for a little closer monitoring. But these are things that the caregiver usually will catch onto before the care team because they know them best.  

And they can catch onto those subtle changes maybe in their personality or little confusion or stuff like that.  

Katherine:

Well, that leads me to the next question, which is what sorts of questions should care partners be asking their team? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah, definitely. 

So, they should be asking what they should be looking for, what side effects would constitute something that they need to report. They should be asking, “Who are we reporting to, what phone number or who are we reporting these things to?” Those are the main things to be looking for. We use a home monitoring system at our center. So, maybe some specific questions about monitoring dependent on your center and how they’re having the caregiver look for these side effects. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, based on your experience, are there any questions that you would recommend care partners ask their healthcare team?  

Adrienne:

I think that it’s kind of one of those things where you have to experience it. I feel like I did have all of my questions answered. 

But at the same time, you don’t really know what you’re getting into until it’s actually happening. 

Katherine:

Right. 

Adrienne: But back to the cytokine syndrome, my husband did have this effect where he had the high fever, and that’s why we went in. And we did get the Toci dose [tocilizumab], which is a special medicine that kind of calms the inflammation down. So, I think that some of the questions that I would have pretty much are what to expect but I was given that. And I think maybe it would be good to meet other people that had gone through this before you’re actually going through it.  

I didn’t have that luxury, because my husband was only the second person in our hospital to do it. But to know what’s going on from another caregiver’s perspective would be nice. 

Katherine:

Yeah. We’re going to talk about resources in a moment. But, Sarah, I wanted to ask you, “What are some of the common issues that care partners face?” 

Sarah Meissner:

I think this is a very stressful time here. Your loved one is not feeling well, and there are these potential side effects. And so, that can cause a lot of stress on caregivers that they’re kind of the one in charge. They’re looking for these things. Of course, they want the best for their loved one. So, it can be a very stressful time.  

Frequent appointments. Here in Denver, we have terrible traffic. So, if people live far away from the center, it’s fighting rush hour every morning to get here. That can add a lot of stress as well as if you have other things going on at home, too, other family members who need you, it’s a lot to take on. 

Katherine:

Adrienne, what experiences or issues did you have in taking care of your husband? 

Adrienne:

Well, we do have a child. She was 2 at the time. So, I did have to plan childcare pretty much every day for two weeks, which I am fortunate to have lots of friends and family here in Denver, so I was able to get that covered. 

Katherine:

It’s a lot of responsibility for you. 

It’s a higher level of responsibility, I guess, right, because you’re taking care of your child and now, your husband is very sick. And you want to make sure that everyone’s needs are being met. 

Adrienne:

Right. And driving, like Sarah had said, the driving was an issue, because it was so far for us. There are potholes and with the little bit of change in mood and not feeling well, it was hard for him to be in the car so long and not getting to drive himself. So, I think that was not the best experience. I think if we did it next time, we would try and just be closer to the hospital.   

And for me to take care of everybody else, I did make sure that I would try and work out and not being able to leave the house with him. So I work out in the living room just to get some of my own stress out, or I would have somebody come and watch him if I really wanted to go to a class to work out. And like I said before, we were very lucky to have his parents that live in town and then my mother and my sister. So, that’s something that is important to have a network of people to help you because I don’t know, depending on what you have on your plate. I think it would be almost impossible to do it all by yourself, especially if you have to work or you have children to take care of.  

So, that’s some advice or what I’ve learned from this experience. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Was it hard for you to take time for yourself? Did you feel guilty? I know a lot of people think “Oh, I need to focus all of my attention on my child or my sick spouse.” It can be difficult to say to yourself, “I really need to take half an hour or an hour,” and then, find somebody to help you out with the caregiving.   

Adrienne:

Yes. I did find it difficult. And you just know that there is going to be an end in sight. You think,”If I can just last through the month so I did sacrifice.” But at the same time, my main concern was that my husband would get through this. So, I did feel a little guilty. And I would get a little bit of time.  

But me, personally, I just wanted to push through that month and especially that first two weeks. And then, I knew that I would be back to doing the things I love.  

Katherine:

Yes. Rather than looking too far forward, I guess it’s trying to get through every day each day. Yeah. I’m going to switch back to ask Sarah a question. Sarah, why is it so important that care partners communicate any issues with their healthcare team? 

Sarah Meissner:

So, those side effects that we talked about, there are drugs that we can use to treat them, but they work best when we can get those drugs in as soon as possible. So, if we’re starting to see signs of cytokine release syndrome, we want to get that tocilizumab (Actemra) infused in the patient within two hours.  

So, it’s really important that we know that these side effects are popping up so that we can treat it appropriately. 

Katherine:

All right. We spoke about support a few moments ago. Sarah, this is, obviously, a very taxing experience for everyone, the patient and care partner. Where can care partners find support during this time looking outside family members and relatives nearby? What other resources are available? 

Sarah Meissner:

Absolutely. I would encourage people to work with their local psychosocial team first. There may be support groups within the program that they’re receiving treatment at that could be helpful or, like Adrienne talked about, other patients or caregivers who have gone through this that they can be connected with.  

There is also some great support resources through The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. They do have caregiver support. They have patient support, connections with patients, and that kind of stuff. So, that is another good place to look as well as the different manufacturing groups that make these CAR T cells do have patient support groups as well. So, maybe some more information, maybe some caregiver resources. They’re all a little bit different but that would be another good place to look.  

Katherine:

Adrienne, did you find any resources that you would recommend?  

Adrienne:

Well, I used, and not on particularly CAR T cell but I do have one in there, but Facebook does have closed groups that you can join. 

I did this for his bone marrow transplant. And I do get a lot of support on that particular one. It’s for spouses and caregivers in particular. So, look for that and there is one on CAR T cell but for multiple myeloma. But at the time, it was very new so there wasn’t a lot of back and forth on there. But you can really connect with people, and, of course, it’s not a substitute for any kind of medical advice. But it is nice to talk to people that are going through the same thing, especially with his bone marrow transplant. There were other caregivers that were, actually, doing it at the same time. So, that was kind of like a reassuring thing to have this little group of people that we knew were all doing it at the same time.  

Katherine:

Yeah. That’s great support. Sarah, how can care partners make sure they’re taking care of themselves? What can they be doing? 

Sarah Meissner:

I think it’s hard going through this process. The focus is so much on the patient and what they’re going through. And caregivers often forget that they have needs, too. So, taking the time to look within and recognize when you’re feeling stressed and maybe you need some support. Reaching out to friends and family is a great thing if you have that option. If you have the option to have somebody come in and hang out with the patient for a period of time, so you can go to a work out class or you can just go grab some groceries or go do something for yourself and have a few minutes that you’re not having to worry about watching the patient can be really a great thing for people. 

Sometimes, if patients don’t have other support, caregivers will take the time that the patient is in clinic and being watched by the care team to maybe go run a quick errand or do something. And that’s definitely an option as well.  

Katherine:

Adrienne, we talked about this, but do you have any advice for care partners as they begin the process? 

Adrienne:

Yes. I would just say that it’s only temporary and that the first two weeks is really intense, but it definitely gets better. And just to keep your eyes peeled on all of those little things that might not be right, because it’s really important to get them back into clinic if they need it and to take a little time for yourself.  

Katherine:

Yeah. Well, before we end the program, I’d like to get final thoughts from both of you. What message do you want to leave care partners with? Adrienne, let’s start with you. You may have already answered this question just a moment ago. 

Adrienne:

The message that I think that we would like to give, my husband, too, is that this is a lot of work, but he has had a very successful remission. And it’s very promising, and we’re excited to have a long future with this. It’s much better than having chemo every week.  

And it’s improved his quality of life. So, I think that as a caregiver, it’s a lot of work, but it’s definitely worth the work, because the end result, hopefully, will be life-changing. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Sarah, do you have anything to add? What information would you like to leave care partners with? 

Sarah Meissner:

Yeah. The care partners are such a crucial part of this process. Without them, we can’t provide this treatment. So, it’s a very important role, and we are very thankful that you are willing to do this for your loved one so that we can give them this treatment and, hopefully, get them into remission and have great results from that. So, make sure that you take the time that you need to be able to be there for your loved one and, again, just thank you for being willing to do this.  

Katherine:

Well, Sarah and Adrienne, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really great to talk to you both.

Sarah Meissner:

Thank you.  

Adrienne:

Thank you. 

Katherine:

And thank you to all of our partners. If you’d like to watch this webinar again, there will be replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. Also, don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan programs in the future. To access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit Powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell.   

PODCAST: Accessing Personalized Myeloma Treatment | What Patients Should Know

/in , , , , /by

 

Myeloma experts Dr. Francesca Cottini and Dr. Ashley Rosko provide an overview of the latest advances in essential testing for myeloma and explain how results could affect care and treatment decisions. Drs. Cottini and Rosko also review available myeloma therapies and their hopes for the future of patient care.

Dr. Francesca Cottini is Assistant Professor in the Division of Hematology at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center. Learn more about Dr. Cottini.

Dr. Ashley Rosko is Medical Director of the Oncogeriatric Program at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center – The James. Learn more about Dr. Rosko.

See More from INSIST! Myeloma

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today we’re going to discuss how to access personalized care for your myeloma and why it’s vital to insist on essential testing.  Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Let’s meet our guests for today. I’ll start with Dr. Ashley Rosko. Dr. Rosko, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself? 

Dr. Rosko:

Hi everyone. My name is Ashley Rosko. I’m an associate professor at the division of hematology at The Ohio State University. 

I’m also the medical director of the oncogeriatric program here at The James and one of the myeloma physicians here at Ohio State. 

Katherine:

Thank you. Also with us is Dr. Francesca Cottini. Dr. Cottini, would you please introduce yourself to the audience? 

Dr. Cottini:

Sure. My name is Francesca Cottini. I am an assistant professor in the divisions of hematology at The Ohio State University. I see patients with multiple myeloma, and I also run my own lab where I focus on multiple myeloma basic research. 

Katherine:

Thank you both for taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us today.  

It’s no secret that it’s important for patients to take an active role in their care and treatment decisions, and I’m sure many viewers here today are doing just that. So, Dr. Rosko, let’s start with this question: Why do you think it’s essential that patients advocate for themselves and insist on better care?  

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, so I think when it comes to uncommon diseases like multiple myeloma –  

Although we’re talking a lot about it here today, myeloma is an uncommon cancer, and when it comes to rare cancers, it’s really important for you to get care at either a comprehensive cancer center or a place where there is expertise specifically in multiple myeloma. 

And the reason why that’s so important, it’s recommended through the NCCN guidelines and other standing guidelines is because myeloma is a very – it’s a shifting and changing landscape when it comes to both treatment regimens, diagnosis, and there’s a lot of moving parts and pieces.

Such as, there is an uncommon cancer that when diagnosed, we do recommend that patients and with their caregivers and with their families and support be able to seek expertise care for these uncommon cancers. We work often in collaboration with our community team, but we would not be able to care for myeloma if it were not for our community partners. 

And so, it’s really, really important for patients oftentimes, when there’s been such a diagnosis, they can come to a comprehensive cancer center for a consultation or to be able to get a second opinion oftentimes. And then continue to get care locally. It really provides this overall guidance on the management and diagnosis of uncommon plasma cell disorders, and we’re happy to do that. 

Katherine:

Thank you for that. It’s helpful as we begin our discussion. Part of accessing more personalized care starts with test results. Dr. Cottini, what testing should take place following a myeloma diagnosis?  

Dr. Cottini:

So, once somebody is diagnosed with multiple myeloma, there are different types of tests that we need to get. Some are blood tests, some are urine tests, some are bone marrow tests, and others are just different types of imaging. So, the reason for all these tests is because multiple myeloma can kind of go everywhere and can cause the damage to different types of organs. 

So, if we look at blood tests, usually you would see that you get the complete blood count, so we can count the number of red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets. And then we’ll look at kidney function, through a chemistry profile, calcium levels, multiple myeloma can affect bone cells can affect kidneys. And then, you will see some more sophisticated tests that are really important for the diagnosis of multiple myeloma but also for monitoring and seeing if you’re actually responding to the treatment or you are progressing. 

These two tests that you can see are kind of difficult to say, but very important and needs to be remembered. So, one is called serum protein electrophoresis with immunofixation. And the other one is free light chain assays. 

And the practicum with these two tests is we can identify the specific marker of the multiple myeloma cells and it is either something monoclonal protein or M-protein or kappa light chain numbers. And as I said before, these numbers can be monitored. So, in response to the treatment, they should go down. And then, unfortunately, if we see progression, they might go up again. 

And then, urine tests can also give the same type of numbers. Usually, we have our patient keep the urine for 24 hours, for a day, and we can see if there’s monoclonal proteins or light chains there, too. Then there is a least favorite test of all of them that is the bone marrow testing. So, this is very important for us, because it’s where most of the myeloma cells stay. So, we need to have a look at the bone marrow.  

We need like a piece of the bone and some of the liquid tissue to look at specific characteristics of the myeloma. And then, I said before, the myeloma can go to bones, so we need to kind of get some imaging of the bones. These are usually a set of X-rays – it’s called skeletal survey – to see if there is any area that is abnormal or at risk of fractures.   

Then, we are also looking at PET scan, which is a more sophisticated test that is based on sugar consumption. We know that myeloma cells and all cancers enjoy sugar, so with the PET scan, we can see visually where the myeloma cells are in the body.

Katherine:

What is cytogenetics? 

Dr. Cottini:

So, this is a really interesting question. So, cytogenetics, or FISH tests, are tests that practical tests allow us to look at the chromosomes of the multiple myeloma. 

So, everybody has 46 chromosomes, right? Multiple myeloma cells can have more of them or less of them. So, they can have – some myeloma cells have 17 chromosomes instead of 46. So, cytogenetics in the karyotype counts how many chromosomes there are. And then, there is another type of test that is called FISH test, or fluorescence in situ hybridization – I get all the difficult names – that practically look at specific area of chromosome. It can tell us if some areas of chromosomes are lost. That’s what you can read as deletions, or practically missing pieces of chromosomes.  

Or there are extra pieces of chromosomes. These are the amplification gains. Or if there are different pieces of chromosomes that stick together. And these are the translocational chromosomes. And all of these data are important for deciding for knowing how aggressive or difficult to treat the myeloma. 

Katherine:

Dr. Rosko, in many other cancers, we’ve been hearing about targeted therapies and immunotherapies. In some cases, a specific mutation or chromosomal abnormality may indicate that a particular treatment may be effective. Are we there yet in multiple myeloma care? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, so, myeloma care is always a little bit different. So, myeloma, being a blood cancer, is different than other solid tumors and how we treat it is also a bit different. So, unlike solid tumors, in which we look at the size of a cancer and then if it’s in different places in the body. In multiple myeloma, it being a blood cancer, just by definition it’s throughout the body. So, we have to be able to estimate or stage cancers differently or stage myeloma differently. And it is based upon the cytogenetics that Dr. Cottini just outlined to you.  

So, to get back to your question, Katherine, I didn’t forget about, how do we define treatment, how are some of these therapies being defined specifically and personalized for persons with multiple myeloma? And we do do that. And it is based a lot upon the DNA of those cancer cells and whether or not they’ve acquired what I would call a standard-risk changes or whether or not they’ve acquired a biology that makes them tend to act more aggressively. Now, again, these DNA differences – not all cancers follow the book, and not all therapies are unique to these. 

But what it does help us to do as clinicians to say, “Well, we have standard risk mutations within these cancer cells, and then we can define oftentimes how many drugs a patient gets when they’re newly diagnosed. Just like many other cancers, our treatments for multiple myeloma can be a combination of pills or shots. And then, if patients carry mutations that tend to act more aggressively, we tend to be very aggressive with their upfront therapy. For many patients, we’d receive three medications. Patients with more aggressive disease biology may receive four medications. 

And it’s very unique upon many characteristics. It’s not only based upon the cancer cells’ DNA but also the health of the patient. The health of the patient really defines also the ability to tolerate treatment. So, many patients are – myeloma has a lot of heterogeneity to it, where some patients with myeloma can’t believe that they could possibly have this cancer. 

You know, it’s really kind of picked up subtly, with blood abnormalities. And then some patients with myeloma come into the hospital very very sick, with having kidney damage or having infection. And it runs the gambit between being asymptomatic really and having patients coming in quite unwell. That also influences our treatment decisions. So, when we think about the question about whether we have different immunotherapies or targeted therapies based upon the genetic changes within the myeloma cancer cells, the answer is yes, we do shape therapy that’s tailored around the type of abnormalities within the cancer cells. 

But unlike some cancers, where if the cancer cells carry a specific marker, we give a specific drug, that’s not quite where we’re at with multiple myeloma, in terms that providing therapy is saying, “If you carry this mutation, this is what you should get.” 

So, it’s a very long answer to say to you that we do personalize therapy based upon changes within the DNA, but we also base it upon how fit the patient is and how their health was prior to developing cancer. 

Katherine:

Thank you for that. Dr. Cottini, what mutations or abnormalities are you looking for? 

Dr. Cottini:

So, as Dr. Rosko said, and as I quickly previously mentioned, so there are different types of DNA tests that we can do. One is this FISH test, and that’s a standard test. It’s usually done practically everywhere. And it practically tells us if there are specific deletions or changes. 

And we don’t really have yet a specific medication that we know works for specific abnormalities. But all this information is important to decide, as Dr. Rosko said, number of drugs, and maybe that can be helpful in the future when hopefully thanks to the research, we will be able to say, “Based on this abnormality, you would benefit more from this type of treatment.”  

There are other types of tests. One is called DNA testing, so we look at the mutation. So, really to point to small changes of a particular gene. This is done not routinely, but I think it can still give lots of good information. And there are lots of genes that are normally myeloma, that has potential drugs that have been studied, those with multiple myeloma and any other type of cancer. 

Katherine:

Yeah. Dr. Rosko, what do the results of these tests tell you about prognosis? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, I think this is a really important question. And, in my experience, when we encounter a patient newly diagnosed with myeloma, it is like drinking from a firehose in terms of the amount of information that we are reviewing and the amount of information that we are discussing with the patient and with their family. And oftentimes, we talk about this piece of these cytogenetic abnormalities, and we talk about – but I really encourage your patients and anyone who is listening in today to really take a deeper dive. 

Because sometimes it’s helpful as, one, you’re navigating a new cancer diagnosis, but that’s challenging in and of itself. And then, two, talking about a cancer, multiple myeloma, that is – most people don’t know so much about multiple myeloma, unlike breast or colon or lung cancer, and so I really encourage patients and their caregivers. And a lot of times this happens, where we’ll go over all the cytogenetic abnormalities, we’ll talk about how it plays a role in their overall treatment trajectory, and their prognosis, but also good just to circle back and say. 

Settling into what this diagnosis is, oftentimes, people on first time treatment. And then even sometimes months or even years into their diagnosis, they stop and they come back and they say, “Can we talk about this FISH data? Can we talk about what changes that I had within the DNA? What does this mean?” And that’s not uncommon at all.  

So, I really feel like for many people that are on the call here today, I think it’s important to say it’s okay to go back to your physician and say, “I’m learning more about this, now that I’m more familiar with what this diagnosis is, can we talk about these FISH changes, or can we talk about the stage of my cancer?” Because I think it’s oftentimes an overwhelming period of time to have a new cancer diagnosis. And I also want to just give permission to everyone on the call that it’s okay to go back and ask questions, even if it’s been months or years.  

So, having high-risk mutation can upstage a cancer and in the absence of high-risk mutations can downstage a cancer. So, what that really means is saying, “These biologic changes that are happening in the cancer cells give a sense of what we anticipate that the trajectory is going to be when someone is diagnosed.” 

Now, it’s imperfect. I feel like cancer just generally is unpredictable and there are many things that we try as clinicians. And especially with the experience that we have, to say, “This is what we anticipate the course will be like you, in terms of response, in terms of the cancer being quiet.” As you all know, multiple myeloma is not a curable cancer right now. And for all patients, when they’re diagnosed, they’re often able to get disease control and be able for that cancer to be put in remission. And we do focus on remission. 

I think that’s also something that I talk to my patients about. Even though we can’t cure it, we can certainly control it, and that’s a big part of what we do. So, when we get good disease control, we’ll talk more about next therapies, but that is how Dr. Cottini – Dr. Cottini is a wonderful scientific investigator and knows all of the latest and greatest when it comes to different mutations that are identified within cancer cells. We partner very closely with her in terms of  scientific investigation and how the mutations that were newly identified, too, play a role in terms of response to treatment, and how we’re able to best treat them.  

Katherine:

Thank you for that. Dr. Cottini, do you have anything to add as far as what type of questions patients should ask their healthcare team about test results?  

Dr. Cottini:

I mean, I think Dr. Rosko already pointed out the most important things. So, multiple myeloma is a rare disease, and it’s not as intuitive to understand as breast cancer, lung cancer, prostate cancer. 

So, it’s really important as a patient to understand which tests are we ordering. Why are we ordering? How do we monitor the disease? Because that’s one of the most important questions the patient asks, because for different types of solid tumor, we get imaging, and we know that the tumor is growing or not. Where, for us, we look at the markers I had described previously. And sometimes, we maybe see small changes in the markers that are very concerning and worrisome for the patient, but sometimes they are not. So, I think asking questions about the testing and how we treat them and monitor the disease is a very important part of being a good applique for itself. 

Katherine:

Thank you. Dr. Rosko, I’d like to move on to treatment. We know that multiple myeloma patients have a number of options and that many available therapies are used in combination. 

So, I’d like you to walk us through the options that are available. 

Dr. Rosko:

So, I’m going to start by how the best way that I can frame out when we talk about newly diagnosed versus patients when they have relapse. So, there are therapies that are available for patients that are FDA-approved when they are newly diagnosed with the cancer, and there are therapies that are approved only when a cancer has acted up again or relapsed. 

So, I’ll kind of frame it from patients who are newly diagnosed. And then, I also will talk more about relapsed therapies and what we’re able to offer to patients. So, in first, when we talk about treatment options, we frame treatment based on a couple things. So, one is, we talk extensively about the disease biology. So, that plays an important role in how we decide which treatment the patient should get.  

And then, the second part about how – I would probably say there’s about four main parts. And so, disease biology is one, and another thing has to do with the patient characteristics. In terms of the patient’s overall health prior to developing cancer, and also how the cancer has impacted their health in terms of everyday activities. Whether or not a person has really slowed down quickly, whether they’ve been in the hospital, and how it’s impacting their organs. Because that plays a role in terms of what we’re able to give patients.  

If a patient has advanced kidney failure, which can sometimes happen, or if you have to focus more on protecting their bones and if there’s concern about fractures and things like that. And then independent of patient characteristics in terms of overall health, the last part I talk to patients about is their own preferences. It’s a hard thing to talk about, shared decision-making in a cancer that most people have never heard about, but there is certainly – when we talk about options and there are, it’s important to talk about shared decision-making in terms of what’s most important to them and where they – and most patients will say, “Well, I just want the best medicine.” 

And I say to them, “Well, you know, we have lots of options, and that’s the best thing about it, but we also want to be cognizant of the real world, of giving best options,” and for example, Many of my patients – so, I’m at The Ohio State University, I’m here. And a lot of patients travel. I have a lot of older patients that I care for, and they’re very independent with travel. And I want to make sure that whatever therapies we’re getting for them, that we can do this in such a way that maintains their lifestyle.  

So, the beginning part of a treatment, it is broadly described as – when we talk about someone who was diagnosed with this, it’s this thing called induction. So, induction is when we give anywhere from two to four medications to be able to control their cancer and put it into remission. And we know that the cancer is in remission because, like we started out the conversation with Dr. Cottini, myeloma makes proteins. Oftentimes, it makes proteins, those proteins are not nutrition proteins but are cancer proteins that we can track in the blood. 

So, we can check them every month and to make sure that the patients are having a really good response, and as such, we’re able to define that they’re responding to their treatment. Because they have a beginning stage in induction, which they’re given treatment, and then the goal is to put patients put in remission. 

Depending on the overall health of the patient, a standard of care for most patients diagnosed with multiple myeloma is to undergo an autologous stem cell transplant. An autologous stem cell transplant is not a transplant in which you’re getting cells from your brother or sister and they’re being donated to you. They are your own stem cells. We get them out of you when your bone marrow is free of disease, and then we would admit you to the hospital for a more intensive therapy and give them back.  

That is often the standard of care for patients newly diagnosed with multiple myeloma and it is recommended for most patients. Some patients get – I like to think of it as a stem cell transplant not at the time of their initial diagnosis, but later on at the time of relapse or some patients are not candidates for a transplant or elect not to have a transplant. And all of these options are very personalized to the patient. It’s very hard to say that this is exactly what we do. 

Because it’s a strategy where it requires a lot of shared decision-making to make sure that we’re getting good disease control, good quality of life, and deep, deep remissions for our patients. So, then, if a patient gets a transplant, there’s a period of recovery, and then patients go on a pill most often, a maintenance pill that they stay on for indefinitely. 

Myeloma is also a cancer which has perpetual therapy. Very different than many other cancers, where there’s a beginning and an end, myeloma for the most part is perpetual therapy, where you get some form of therapy at higher dosages versus lower dosages over a period of time.  

So, I’m going to talk broadly about the classes of drugs that we have and how we use them to be able to define therapy. 

So, the first class of drugs are called proteasome inhibitors. Just like many other cancers, we use different types of drugs to be able to target different aspects of a cancer cell’s growth cycle.  

So, very similar to how we do other drugs, these are very specific to the cancer cell, and they’re very targeted. So, unlike some of our other kind of classic chemotherapies, many of these medicines that I’m going to talk about are very targeted at the cancer cells without causing too many other problems. 

So, proteasome inhibitors include drugs like bortezomib (Velcade), which is given as a shot, carfilzomib (Kyprolis), which is given as an IV, or ixazomib (Ninlaro), which is given as a pill. They have different indications, but they’re the same class of drugs.  

The next class of drugs is called immunomodulatory drugs, or iMiDs. This includes things like lenalidomide (Revlimid), pomalidomide (Pomalyst). Those are the most common, and then we sometimes use the drug that the original iMiD drug, which is called thalidomide (Contergan). 

These are all pills that patients take, and so that’s oftentimes very nice for patients to be able to provide therapy at home, very well-tolerated. The next class of drugs are called monoclonal antibodies. On a cancerous cell, there is a marker. 

And so, we use monoclonal antibodies to be able to target the marker on the cancer cell. What that means is very specific. To that cancer cell, so, the most common target is the CD38, that’s a marker on one of the cancer cells. And we use a drug called daratumumab (Darzalex), that can be given as an IV or a subcutaneous agent, or another drug called isatuximab (Sarclisa). We also have other markers on the plasma cell. There’s a marker called SLAMF7, which we have other drugs called elotuzumab (Empliciti), which is often used for patients more in the relapse setting.  

Katherine:

Dr. Cottini, I’m wondering if you could briefly go over CAR T-cell therapy and bispecific antibodies. 

Dr. Cottini:

Yes, of course. So, these are all our new therapeutic approaches for patients. And these are types of treatments that are given to patients that already went through their induction, they went into remission, maybe they had a bone marrow transplant. And then, after a couple of years or months, unfortunately the disease came back, and they need the new and different treatment options. So, these two strategies, CAR T and bispecific antibodies, really rely on the T-cells, on the immune cells of the patient.  

And they all focus and target a specific marker on the plasma cells, but they work a little bit differently. So, the bispecific antibodies – and we have different antibodies.  

Some are approved by the FDA, some are just in clinical trials trials. They practically recognize something that is on the plasma cells, on the myeloma cells, that can be BCMA, GPRC5D, or other targets. So, at the same time that I am able to get close by the T cells, the immune cells, and in this way, practically there is both the antibodies and also the immune cells which is activating and getting rid of the cancer cells. 

So, these are infusions. Often, they’re done initially in the hospital and then in the outpatient setting. Sometimes it’s even every week, every other week or so.  

CAR T are different strategies, and it’s a very smart way of trying to get rid of the cancer cells. So, practically, these are T cells.  

So, these are immune cells from you, from the patient. And they are practically taken and then brought to a very specific and clean facilities where these T cells are modified in order to be able to recognize the cancer cells.  

And then these cancer cells are sent back to us and then practically they are given into the veins to patient, and then there is this kind of reaction of these T cells, which are very peppy and aggressive to be able to kill all the remaining cancer cells. So, these are all the new strategies. 

Obviously, we are kind of like in the early process, but these are very promising therapies I think we’ll be maybe moved up front even with diagnosis in the next 10, 20 years, we don’t know. 

Katherine:

I want to thank you both so much for your thoughtful responses. And as we close out the program, I’d like to get a final comment from each of you. What are you excited about in myeloma research, and why should patients be hopeful? Dr. Cottini?  

Dr. Cottini:

So, I think that especially if we look back especially at where myeloma was 20 or 30 years, I think we have made so many progresses, and there is really hope for our patients. I’m very passionate about research. That’s what I do. That’s why I read paper, I publish paper, and I think that it’s the heterogeneity of our disease is huge, and it’s difficult to tackle. But we as researchers, as physicians are the ones that can look at these changes, and find new therapies for our patients. So, I think that research is the way to go to be able to finally cure our patients. 

Katherine:

Dr. Rosko? 

Dr. Rosko:

Yeah, I mean I go Dr. Cottini’s sentiments. The multiplying therapies for myeloma really provides our ability to prescribe and make myeloma more of a chronic illness for our patients. I think it’s really important to allow patients to get really good targeted therapy personalized to them. Of course, we all are looking forward here to deep remissions. We want to be able to do that in such a way where we have good quality life for our patients. 

I think, importantly, as part of this program does here, we have to create access. So, most of myeloma is treated in the community, and most myeloma is diagnosed in older adults. And I really think how important it is, we talk about clinical trials, and being able to get our patients on to clinical trials, and to be able to get more knowledge about the disease process of pathogenesis, which I think is just really pivotal. 

So, I’m excited about personalizing therapy to the individual’s health and really being able to increase access to all of these novel therapies that we have. For patients, often at specialized cancer centers, but I’m really interested in how we can increase reach and access for all of these advances in myeloma research to every patient no matter where they’re at. 

Katherine:

Well, thank you both for joining us today. And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about myeloma and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us.  

 

PODCAST: Thriving With Breast Cancer | Tools for Navigating Care and Treatment

/in , , , , , , /by


How can patients live well with breast cancer? Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy reviews current and emerging breast cancer treatments, discusses the importance of emotional support, and shares advice and resources for engaging in care decisions.

Dr. Bhuvaneswari Ramaswamy is the Section Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and the Director of the Medical Oncology Fellowship Program in Breast Cancer at The Ohio State College of Medicine. Learn more about Dr. Ramaswamy.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today’s webinar is part of our Thrive Series, and we’re going to discuss the tools to help you navigate breast cancer care. Before we meet our guest, let’s review a few important details. The reminder email you received about this program contains a link to a program resource guide. If you haven’t already, click that link to access information to follow along during the webinar. At the end of this program, you’ll receive a link to a survey.  

Please take a moment to provide feedback about your experience today in order to help us plan future webinars. And finally, before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you. Well, joining me today is Dr. Ramaswamy. Welcome. It’s so good to have you here. Would you mind introducing yourself?  

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Oh, no, of course not. Thank you so much, Katherine. And well, I’m Dr. Ramaswamy. I’m a professor at the Ohio State University. I’ve been here for about 20 years as faculty. My focus of interest, what I see in the clinic is primarily breast cancer patients. And my research is also focused on breast cancer itself, both treatment as well as prevention. I do both. I have a lab, and so I work on that to understand some of the mechanisms and biology of drug resistance as well as prevention.  

Why does like lack of breastfeeding or obesity, why does that increase the risk of breast cancer? I study that in the clinic. I am primarily interested in clinical research, so putting patients on clinical trials, both therapeutic and non-therapeutic, collecting tissues, collecting data to understand, again, biology that’s happening in the patients and what works and improving care and identifying new novel therapies. That’s what I do. 

Katherine:

Excellent. 

Well, thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to join us today. 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Anytime. 

Katherine:

I’d like to start – we start all of our Thrive Series with the same question. In your experience, what does it mean to thrive with breast cancer? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

That’s a great question. I think it’s an important one because we always talk about surviving breast cancer, and that’s obviously the most important thing. We all want to survive, but we all also want more than that. We don’t want to just live, we want quality of life. 

And I think one thing that to remember is as soon as the breast cancer diagnosis is done, it’s in part – it’s difficult to say that you can thrive immediately. So, your focus is on really getting through the treatments and making sure it’s all done. So, at that time, managing the toxicities and getting through the stresses of going through the treatments and surgery, radiation, et cetera takes over everything else. But as you finish that off you, you want to focus on what are the ways you can try to get back to the life that you had prior to breast cancer.  

Now it’s difficult and it’s almost impossible to forget the big C word in your life. So, that’s going to hang and that’s going to kind of make anything you look at your perspective as slightly different. I mean, every pain could be worrisome because could it be a reference? Has the cancer spread? Or every bad news about another person could you, could transport that about yourself and then kind of worry about what could happen to you. 

Every visit to the doctor, and particularly your oncologist, is going to bring back memories. So, there are certain things that you can’t take away, but time can heal those. But what we talk about thriving is that you looking at factors that is going to make you and your body healthy. That is going to be exercise, being engaged in whether your work or your family work and being joyful and seek what brings you joy, whether it’s friends, your work or your family.  

And make sure you make time for that. And also eating right and diet is an important aspect of that. Not doing inflammatory diets such as highly fatty diets or meat-containing diet, but really kind of looking at your diet and your weight and your exercise. And trying to also discuss with your team about what are the symptoms you are having and how we can support you to mitigate those symptoms. And really having conversations and somebody you can confide with to both manage your physical aspects as well as the emotional aspects.  

And really kind of thriving and becoming an advocate for yourself as well as for others who have breast cancer is what I would say is truly thriving with breast – with the diagnosis of breast cancer.   

Katherine: 

Yeah. And we are going to go into a more in-depth discussion later as the interview goes on, but thank you so much for your perspective. Let’s start with an essential piece that helps people thrive, understanding their breast cancer. First, what are the types of breast cancer? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Yeah, and I think that’s extremely critical. Empowering you, the patient, with the knowledge of the type of breast cancers and what’s the outcomes and why they’re getting some treatments, and what to look for is probably one of the most important things to do. And part of it lies primarily with the providers to ensure that education empowerment. But part of it also lies on the part of the patient to make sure they ask the right questions and learn about their breast cancer.  

So, the type of breast cancers you have that are hormone receptor-sensitive breast cancer, that means your tumor would be positive for estrogen and or progesterone receptors. And it depends on estrogen and or progesterone for its growth and wellbeing. And then there is a HER2-positive breast cancer, which means the HER2 protein is high in your tumors and that drives the cancer cells.  

And so, it’s important to understand that subtype and why we have certain treatments to improve the outcomes. And then the last one is when all those three are not there, ER, PR, and HER2. So, hence the word triple-negative breast cancers. These are the large subtypes of breast cancers that are based on these biomarkers, which are proteins that drive the growth of breast, the cancer cells. There is of course different types of breast cancer based on histology that is invasive ductal cancer, that’s very most common. The less, slightly less common is the invasive lobular cancer, about 10 to 15 percent.  

But then there are also very less than 3 percent called metaplastic breast cancers and other types of breast cancers that could also be histological different subtypes.  

And it’s important for you to know what type of subtype of histological or how does it look under the microscope is important for you to know as well. So, these I would say are the most important understanding of our breast cancer subtypes, at least this much to definitely educate the patient and patient having the understanding of their cancer. 

Katherine: 

What biomarker testing is standard following a breast cancer diagnosis? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, the three biomarkers that we definitely test for at this point are the estrogen receptor for strong receptors and the HER2. And, of course, there’s also the grade that your pathologist would grade your tumor. And grade is different from stage. And that is looking at how quickly your cells are growing. And these are the basic understanding that you should have about your cancer at this point. 

Katherine: 

Dr. Ramasamy, how is breast cancer staged? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

The breast cancer is usually staged by using couple of things. One is clinical staging. So, when you come in with the initial you feel a lump and you get a mammogram. So, we will stage you by understanding the size of your tumor in your breast as well as whether we are able to palpate your lymph nodes. Second, we, you know, the imaging. What we feel as a size is usually a little bit overestimated when we look at the mammograms or the MRIs that you have. And then we’ll see whether in the – in those imagings whether your lymph nodes are looking abnormal. So, we use these initially to do clinical staging. But then when we go to surgery, that’s when we do the correct pathological staging because now, we know exactly your tumor size. Then they do what’s called a sentinel lymph node biopsy.  

We don’t need to take all the lymph nodes to stage your nodal status anymore. We just use this methodology in the surgery, in this – during surgery to just pick out those nodes that is draining your tumor back. And whether they’re positive or not. In general, as long as you don’t have a very locally advanced cancer, we don’t need to do staging scans to stage you for breast cancer. But in case you are unlucky enough to have cancer spread in those, and we do scans and you have cancer either in your bone or liver or lung, then that is a higher staging, and that’s what’s called the stage IV cancer. 

Katherine: 

Okay. Another key component of thriving is finding a treatment that is right for your disease. What are the considerations that guide a treatment decision? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Yeah, great question. So, what we just talked about, the two things that are very important for us to make a decision, and that’s where we have come far in the last 20, 25 years, is because we are not just taking the staging.  

That is anatomical staging, meaning what’s the size of your tumor and the lymph node involvement. We use those. That is important for us because that obviously changes the risk. The higher the stage, the higher risk of recurrence. The higher the risk, we have to do more treatment to get a benefit, right? So, that’s one side. But what we have come to understand is biomarkers are very important. That is biology of your tumor.  

So, the grade, how quickly it’s proliferating although it’s not a biomarker, but it tells us a lot. And then the three important biomarkers we talked about ER, PR, and HER2. Those all are important for us to make a decision. In addition to that, we do something called a genomic testing called Oncotype DX assay. There is also another test called MammaPrint. These are genomic testing.  

That is, we look at some of the genes that are up or downregulated in your tumor to decide whether you are going to benefit for something called chemotherapy or maybe just targeted therapies enough. So, these are some of the factors that we use to make a decision.  

Now, do we use age and your performance status? Meaning how well you are? Do you have comorbidities? Do you have bad diabetes? Do you have heart disease? Yes, they all go into that whole treatment decision, but the primary is made out of biomarkers and genomic testing and anatomic, and the rest are additional factors that go into our decision-making.  

Katherine: 

Yeah. What about metastatic disease? Are the considerations different when it comes to treatment? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

It is a little bit different because the first thing that we have to understand is when we are seeing them in stage I, stage II, stage III, which is stage IV is metastatic, stage II – we – our goal is a curator. We are trying to really throw the kitchen sink, although that’s really not what we do. We are trying to still be tailored therapy, but we are trying to do everything we can to prevent a recurrence.  

But now when you have a stage IV disease that is the cancer has spread, that is the horses have left the barn in the breast and has gone and settled in distant organs and gone, our goal is to try to contain the disease. So, prevent further progression, prolong the life and survival, and also improve quality of life. So, there are those consideration.  

The biomarkers still go into consideration. We ensure we biopsy the metastatic site and look for those biomarkers. We do the genomic testing, gene sequencing of this. That will also help with our decision-making. We, of course, look for clinical trials because new novel therapies are always more important, but these are the other factors. And, of course, performance status that is how well you are, how well your organs are functioning, and what’s your age, and how that affects your morbidity. All of those are also important. 

Katherine:

What questions should patients ask about their treatment options?  

Dr. Ramaswamy:

I think the most important thing is to understand what you have first. So, kind of the doctor will talk to you about what type, histological type of breast cancer you have. They’ll also talk to you about what biomarkers you have. And they will also talk to you about the treatment options, which could be chemotherapy versus target therapies, and what are the outcomes from those using clinical trials. So, I think the questions that you have to ask them is that, what do you feel like you would is right for your body, right? That’s important. That what you have some of the preconceived notions that we all carry. That bias and preconceived notions is just a normal natural way of learning. And so ask about those fears, ask about those hopes that you have. And if your hope is, “Hey, can I do as well without chemotherapy?” Ask that question. So, and it’s important to understand the side effects and the outcomes of each therapy.   

It may also be important for you if you do – you really don’t want to have treatments to understand if you don’t get treatment, what are your outcome changes? So, those are, I think, the important thing. And then what that does mean to you? What do you want out of your life? Longevity, quality of life? How long will your quality of life be affected? And how does that impact your understanding of what you want out of your life? I think those are important for you to ask and make sure you have a friend or a relative with you so that not everything is going to go in at the first or the second visit, so you have someone else who’s taking notes. 

Katherine: 

Yeah, good idea. Are there emerging therapies that are showing promise? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Oh, my God. There’s just tremendous emerging therapies that are showing extraordinary progress. And I talk about this to my patients all the time. I mean, I tell them like two years ago say in a patient with – patient with metastatic disease, I’ll say, last year this drug wasn’t approved.  

This drug is now approved for you to be given, and it shows extraordinary effect. So, every year we have new drugs getting approved, and we are also trying to get it used to be a little bit of a richness on the HER2-positive disease. And now we are seeing definitely a lot of richness on hormone receptor- positive disease. And I think we’re starting to see some new particular immunotherapy and other targeted therapies showing some response in triple- negative breast cancer.  

Now, I know that’s a place that we still need to see more newer therapies, but overall, in the stage IV setting, we have really many options to keep them in good quality of life and longer. But people will ask, “Really, why do I even need to get to stage IV?” Really look at me and improve the curative setting. And that again, we are able to pick the higher risk patients, what me – what it means to have higher risk disease, how do we target them, newer drugs to target them. So, I think in so many ways we are doing better. And we are also getting to a place can we detect higher-risk patients, not just by their initial diagnosis and response, but follow them sequentially by circulating tumor cells?  

And we are getting to that place where we can actually do circulating tumor DNA, so just isolate the DNA, and we know what will belong to the tumor. And then circulating tumor cells seemingly even after your curative therapy. And so that is something that’s getting approved. And so we are not only seeing treatment, but we are also trying to see better detection of that reference. So, I think we are in so many ways, improving. And I am – I’ve been in this for 20 years, some of the things that thought was a dream is coming true. So, truly just keep living well and keep thriving. There are options. 

Katherine: 

Yeah. That’s, it’s positive. 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Yes. 

Katherine: 

Dr. Ramaswamy, along with treatment can also come side effects. What are some common side effects of breast cancer treatment? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Yeah, great question. Again, an important question for you all to consider. So, let’s divide our treatment to targeted therapy and chemotherapy. The targeted therapy could be the estrogen receptors and then the HER2 because the HER2, again, remember that biomarker. And then the chemotherapy that any patient with breast cancer could get, including, of course, the triple-negative. And then we’ll touch base a little bit later on with the immunotherapy. So, when we look at the targeted therapy with estrogen receptor, anti-estrogen receptors, of course, it’s like putting you into menopause again. It’s like so you could have hot flashes, you could have some emotional liability and you could have vaginal dryness and sexual libido could be lower.  

And also you could have joint aches and pains and your bone density could go down and cause osteopenia and osteoporosis and fractures. So, those are some of the – and we can address all of those that we’ll come to later. With the HER2-targeted therapies, one of the main things will be the heart. These can affect the heart because there are some receptors that are present there that these HER2 therapies can affect the myocardial function. So, they don’t cause increase in heart attacks, but just the pumping action of your heart could go down. We keep checking your heart function to help with that. And then with the chemotherapies, other than your blood counts going down, these are acute events. Those blood counts could go down, which could put you at higher risk for infections. Again, some of the heart chemotherapies can affect the heart. So, we’ll keep an eye on that.  

And, of course, fatigue that comes with all of these treatments that can happen. But some of those chronic things that can happen is also neuropathy. So, tingling, numbness in your hands and feet, even sometimes pain in your hands and feet. And then this can stay on for a little bit longer and can cause some trouble buttoning your shirt or playing the piano or putting your earrings. So, it can affect your daily quality of life and cause pain. The other important thing, which we do have now an option is also hair loss. I know that is something hard for age. It’s so hard for women to lose hair and the consequence of being identified differently and not having that – when you look at the mirror, it’s a constant reminder.  

So, we do have something called a scalp cooling that you could take an option and discuss with your doctors whether that how helpful that’ll be for your type of chemotherapy and whether you could use it and you can – but 60 percent of the time not lose all your hair and need a wig. So, that is something that you can address. So, broadly, these are the issues that can happen. Again, this is very broad. Depending on your treatment, you still need to talk to your doctors. 

Katherine: 

How can some of these side effects be managed? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, the key thing is to be first thing that I want to advise all our patients is that be vocal about your side effects. Okay? Sometimes we all think, okay, they did tell me I’m supposed to have all the side effects. I just need to keep quiet about it. That’s not what is important. And I think I did miss mentioning the GI tract changes like nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Again you think, oh, this is our part of all chemotherapy, I just need to keep quiet. No, that’s not the case because we actually give you anti-nausea medications before the chemotherapy. So, if it’s not effective, you need to have to tell your doctors, “Okay, this time I had a couple of sensations of nausea, but no vomiting.” 

Or “No, I was vomiting a lot.” Whatever it is. Even if  you had just nausea, it’s important to tell your doctors. If it’s diarrhea, you need to tell them. We do give you some medications, but if it’s not working, you need to tell them. And again, we always underplay the issues with sexual side effects because you don’t want to talk about that. I mean, it’s not important. No, it is important.  

It’s important for your intimacy, it’s important for your life, and it’s important for you to speak because there are supportive care therapies that we can provide. Neuropathy, again, I think your doctors will always ask you, but being vocal about it, being honest about it, and talking about it is important. So, again, fatigue.  

They are going talk to you about exercise, because exercise does overcome that fatigue. But if you’re not able to do it again, it’s honest to say, “No, but I didn’t do what you said last time.” So don’t feel bad about it. And there could be other ways we can improve your fatigue too. So, again, sharing those side effects is important and we can. We can address all of these side effects. Now, I’m not saying the minute we address these side effects it’s all going to go away completely, but they can get better. And it’s important for you to talk about it and get those supportive care measures. 

Katherine: 

Yeah, thank you for that. It’s really helpful. And it actually leads us into the next topic. Coping with emotions that come along with a breast cancer diagnosis such as anxiety and depression can be challenging. Why is it important to share emotional concerns with your healthcare team? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Yeah, so I think one of the things that the breast cancer patients, I mean, I would say all cancer patients, I’ll be honest, or any kind of chronic illness, fearful illness. And I think most what they – I think what hurts them most is the how isolating the journey is because despite having very close family and they might have full trust in their providers. At the end of the day, those fears, those sorrow of potential mortality and all the side effects has to be gone through them. They’ve got to go through that. And then validating their anxiety, validating their fears, validating their symptoms is so important. So, that’s why telling your patient I understand. Whatever it is, you’re going through an isolating journey, it’s hard, and I validate all your concerns that you have.  

We can’t really compare apples to apples here like patient to patient because you – we all have an inherent approach to a critical problem. And this is a critical problem that comes into your life and whatever that approach is of what – how you’re going to approach this. So, there’s no right or wrong and how she copes and you cope. And sometimes family does that and sometimes your own friends do that. Like, oh, it’s okay, but see she did well and she and you know and see how she’s coping. It doesn’t help. I think so educating the family as well to say or the spouse particularly validate their concerns, give validation and acknowledge their concerns and then say something positive to help them move forward. And I think these are important. And I think what I tell my patients is that I will never know what you’re going through if you don’t share it with me.  

And this would be both emotional and your physical and okay, I can pick some of it with your in a body language, but I can’t really pick the depth of the problems and we can address how to find solutions. The third point that’s important is there are solutions for this. It’s not like they’re going to get better completely, but we can help you. We can help you whether it’s emotional anxiety symptoms, we can find peer group that could help. We can find psychosocial counseling that can help. We can also help with actual treatment and medications that helps with depression and anxiety that we can manage better. And we can help you with your sleep because sleep is so important. And when you’re sleeping is when you start worrying about many things.  

And the same way with all your other physical side effects, there are some things that we can do. We are never going to say, “Well, put up with this. You just have to go through this to get better.” We never say that. We will try to address it in some way. Now, I do understand the limitations of what we can do and it doesn’t always get better to everybody, but if you don’t tell us, we can’t even try.  

So, it’s so important to share and sometimes sharing all this reduces the burden on you. So, and I think that’s important as well, so. 

Katherine: 

Dr. Ramaswamy, before we move on to answering questions from our breast cancer community, I’d like to touch upon the concept of shared decision- making. In your mind, what does that mean? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, it is a concept that has come more lately in our lives. Even as I started, we didn’t – not that we didn’t do it, we didn’t give it a name. And I think now giving it a name always helps because we always think about it and make sure we are doing it. I think the shared decision-making is important on two levels. Sometimes we do have treatment options that are very similar as far as outcomes, so.  

It is important to understand what are the goals of the patient. Is it that even if it’s a 0.5 percent increasing their cure rate, is that their goal? Or really looking at the benefits versus the risks and versus side effects and trying to reduce the side effects and quality of life. So, I think this – those kinds of things, this will never be addressed if you don’t understand our patient and give them an opportunity to speak out what they want.  

So, I think in – and this happens in every aspect of their journey, right? So, it is important even if they say sometimes they’ll talk about sexual side effects and we talk about it and we offer some clinics. And they might say, you know what? At this point, I think I know you’ve shared with me certain ways. Let me try it and then I’ll tell you when. So, everything is the shared decision-making because that’s when we have the highest sense of compliance and to feel a sense of feeling that they’re being heard, and we are in this together. And if we are not in this together, it is almost impossible to get the best outcomes both from quality of life and also survival. So – 

Katherine: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

– that’s where the shared decision-making comes to. So, understanding the patient better and the patient understanding their outcomes better. 

Katherine: 

Yeah. Well, let’s get to a few audience questions that we received before the program. Rebecca writes, “I have skin itching as a side effect of my treatment. Is there anything that could be done to help?” 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, it depends on what she’s on and I’m going to assume maybe possibly like trastuzumab (Herceptin), pertuzumab (Perjeta) which are anti-HER2 therapies. They are – they can cause skin itching because they also get it for a year. So, I think the most important thing is of course discussing with your provider because is it one of these drugs that you’re on? Sometimes if it doesn’t get better with some of the – first things that we do is make sure you don’t have dry skin, that you’re ensuring that you’re putting a lot of moisturizers and addressing those. Where is your skin itching? Is there a rash associated with it.  

And so we kind of look at all of that and we can also give you some anti-itch medications if your itching is more at night when we all go to sleep. So, we can do that. And if it’s still there, then your provider can look at the pros and cons of is this drug causing it and is it worth pursuing it despite your itching, or taking it off so that it can improve quality of life. So, I think the most important thing is to make sure you talk to your doctor. And then they look at all of the others, the extent of their itching, the timing of their itching, and is there a rash, and then see whether the drug is causing and decide about holding or not holding the drug. 

Katherine: 

Okay. Good advice. Susan wants to know, have there been any advances in imaging or screening for a recurrence? And can anything be done to help prevent a recurrence? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, let me answer the first question. So, we did – we have done clinical trials where patients got imaging that meaning CT scans even if they don’t have symptoms every four months, as opposed to the other group had only scans when they got symptoms. And we looked at two outcomes. One is, are they surviving longer? Because that is, of course, our primary goal. But actually, the secondary goal was, is their quality of life better? 

Katherine: 

No. 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Many of us knew that survival is not going to improve because we understand this disease. So, you did not. The two groups do not have any difference in survival, but we were very surprised to see even the quality of life was not improved. That’s because every time you have a scan, there’s a lot of anxiety what you’re going to say. And then if there is some somewhere that could be nothing at all, now they say, I’m not sure whether it’s inflammatory or metastatic. Now you have to go and biopsy. Now the biopsy can lead to some side, I mean, some complications, or sometimes we’ll say, no, we can’t biopsy it. We’re going to watch it closely.  

Now it’s easy for me to say, and then I’ll walk out and go and see the next patient. But you are going to carry this heavy burden in your mind and think about, oh, my God, four months I’m going to wait. What if it’s grown? So, there’s a lot of anxiety that induces that we are not able to address. So, that’s why we don’t do routine imaging for all patients. But we have a very low threshold to do the imaging if you have symptoms that we are concerned about.  

And I generally educate my patients any persistent progressive symptoms. So, two-piece persistent progressive symptom. Please call, don’t even wait for the next appointment, and then we’ll move forward from that. So, as far as imaging, I can’t say that we have a better tool to identify those little mats and do something better. But like I had said before in this particular meeting, we are now looking to see whether we can find that circulating tumor cells or circulating in tumor DNA.  

And if that proves out to be good, we have some late FDA approval of a test. But if it is going to impact patients’ lives by doing this on a routine basis and we think we can start the treatment earlier and impact their outcomes, you are going to have another test that we can do, which is even simpler, which is just a blood draw test.  

So, I think we are going in that direction and we’ll know a little bit more soon. Now, your second question was, can we prevent a recurrence? So, everything that we are doing is to prevent a recurrence, right? Because if you think about it, your tumor is going to be removed by surgery, and so it’s out. And we are going to do additional radiation, which to just kind of pick those little cells if they’re left. And in certain circumstances, I would say in most circumstances we would do radiation. But we are also doing all these treatments that we talked about, chemotherapy, antiestrogen therapy. We are doing it longer. We are doing anti-HER2 therapy. We’re trying to pick those high-risk patients who didn’t respond so well. We are giving them more treatments to treat. They’re all to prevent a recurrence.  

That’s what we are doing. But the – I’m – we did talk about two other things as well. Exercising, eating right, making sure you’re not gaining weight, and making sure you’re engaged because your reduced stress and lack of – increased happiness improves good cells in your body, less inflammation in your body, all of this will help. Okay? And no doubt all of this to is to help your – reduce your recurrence. But the thing is what we are not able to say to a patient is that, okay, we’ve done all this, 100 percent you’re not going to have a recurrence. We don’t have that level of confidence in what we do. We can say you reduced your risk of recurrence, but we can’t just say you have zero chance of recurrence. That’s where we still can improve and we’ll continue to do better, so. 

Katherine: 

Thank you for those responses, Dr. Ramaswamy, and please continue to send in your questions to powerful to question@powerfulpatients.org, and we’ll work to get them answered on future programs.  

Well, to close out our conversation, Dr. Ramaswamy, I’d like to get your thoughts on where we stand with research progress. Are you hopeful? 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Extraordinarily hopeful. I mean, and I say this like I even said before, some of the things I was skeptical about. I have to pull back my skepticism, which I’m very, very happy about. The role of immunotherapy starting to come into breast cancer, newer drugs, oh my god, therapeutics has improved our understanding of how to prevent these cancers. Picking up those high-risk patients, looking at these liquid biopsies, our understanding of genomics and precision oncology, I just have so much hopes. Management of brain mats with radiation treatments that are so targeted, improving, reducing, or mitigating the side effects with the treat – with the less treatments for those patients who have less risk. I mean, in every possible way, we are improving the way – what we are doing. Can we do better? Particularly in some areas I do want to bring it out. I think we still lag behind in health equity.  

I think still a in African American patients with the breast cancer has a higher risk of dying from breast cancer. We haven’t really impacted it as well as we can do. I think understanding the ancestry, understanding the risk, understanding the lifestyle behaviors that increases the risk of these aggressive cancers, say in African American women and in –and those are very, very important. Prevention is so much better than cure, right? So, I think a little bit better of our understanding on prevention and the liquidity. Both access and understanding the biology and treatment. Improving our clinical trial approvals. We still only even in the best cancer centers, we only approve 25 percent of our patients, 15 to 25 percent of our patients into cancer clinical trials. And look at the changes we’ve had.   

But imagine if we can put 50 percent of our patients on clinical trials, we’ll double the progress because without those clinical trials, none of these drugs can be approved. 

Katherine: 

Yeah.  

Dr. Ramaswamy:

So, what is today in a clinical trial is what is a tomorrow-approved drug. So, our understanding and talking about that becomes very, very important for us. And then I think lastly, there are some breast cancer like invasive lobular cancers that are only 15 percent that we still don’t understand as well. And so there are some more little pockets that I think we still need to understand. Male breast cancers are slightly starting to increase. We need to improve. So, there are areas we can do better, but overall, it’s absolute promising and very, very happy today. Our research is going really well, so, and it’s impacting patients’ outcomes.  

Katherine: 

Dr. Ramaswamy, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. 

Dr. Ramaswamy:

Thank you so much for taking this to the patients. I appreciate you. So, thank you. 

Katherine: 

And thank you to all of our partners. If you’d like to watch this webinar again, there will be a replay available soon. You’ll receive an email when it’s ready. And don’t forget to take the survey immediately following this webinar. It will help us as we plan future programs. To learn more about breast cancer and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit  powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell, thanks for being with us today. 

PODCAST: Managing Life With an MPN | What You Need to Know

/in , , , , , /by


MPN expert Dr. Raajit Rampal shares advice for making treatment decisions for patients with essential thrombocythemia (ET), polycythemia vera (PV), and myelofibrosis (MF). Dr. Rampal also reviews tips and tools for managing symptoms and side effects and provides an update on new and emerging MPN therapies.
 
Dr. Raajit Rampal is a hematologist-oncologist specializing in the treatment of myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs) and leukemia at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. Learn more about Dr. Rampal.

See More from the Empowered! Podcast

Transcript:

Katherine Banwell:

Hello and welcome. I’m Katherine Banwell, your host for today’s program. Today’s webinar is a continuation of our Thrive series. And we’re going to discuss how to manage life with an MPN.  Before we get into the discussion, please remember that this program is not a substitute for seeking medical advice. Please refer to your healthcare team about what might be best for you.  

Let’s meet our guest today. Joining me is Dr. Raajit Rampal. Dr. Rampal, welcome. Would you please introduce yourself.    

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m Raajit Rampal from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center where I focus on myeloproliferative neoplasms. 

Katherine Banwell:

Thank you so much for being with us today. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

My pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

As we do with each of the webinars in our Thrive series, let’s start with this question. In your experience, what do you think it means to thrive with an MPN? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s a great question, right. I think taking a step back, when we think about our patients with MPNs, one of the questions I always have for patients are what are your goals. And inevitably and invariably, people want two things. They want to live longer and they want to live better. And so, I think that thinking about thriving with an MPN to me is about how do we minimize the impact of an MPN in someone’s life. And that means a couple of things. One that means how do we deal with symptoms or things that are causing medical problems. 

But two, how do we deal with the anxiety of a diagnosis? In many cases in my experience, that can be just as detrimental to somebody’s well-being as the actual physical symptoms of the disease.  

Katherine Banwell:

When it comes to choosing therapy for polycythemia vera essential thrombocythemia, or myelofibrosis, it’s important to work with your healthcare team to identify what is going to work best for you. So, to begin, would you define shared decision making and why is this critical to properly managing life with an MPN? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. Shared decision-making, to me, is really about the physician or whoever is on the healthcare team providing the patient all of the information needed to make a good decision. That means what are we trying to do? What is the medication or invention going to accomplish? What are the side effects because there are always side effects.  

And what do we think that’s going to do or how is that going to impact the patient’s life? Where things get nuanced is that patients come to us because we have expertise. There are two extremes. One extreme is that the physician says this is the medication you should take. End of discussion. The other extreme though is also not helpful, which is to say to a patient here are five choices. Here are the side effects. You pick one. Our job is to lay out those side effects and the benefits but then, also help guide a decision. 

Katherine Banwell:

What are treatment goals and how are they determined?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It depends on the disease to a large extent. Now, when we’re dealing with ET and PV, the primary goal of our interventions is to reduce the risk of a clotting event or bleeding event. And that usually involves controlling the blood counts in some cases, not in all patients with ET. 

Sometimes aspirin is all we do. Myelofibrosis is a little bit more complicated because it depends on what the problem is. Not all myelofibrosis patients have the same challenges. Some have anemia that needs treatment. Some have a big spleen. Some have symptoms and some have nothing and they just need observation. So, it’s a bigger list with MF patients. But I think the first part of the discussion always is defining what the goal needs to be. 

Katherine Banwell:

What factors are considered when choosing therapy for ET, PV, and MF? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think a couple of things. One is what medication we think is going to benefit the patient best. That has to take into account the individual, their willingness to take certain medications, for example, pills versus interferon injection. Some people have an aversion to self-injection, which we have to take that into account. What are the other medical conditions that the patient is dealing with? 

And the reality is, in some cases, it’s cost because these medications, depending on a patient’s insurance, can have quite a different spread in terms of cost. Unfortunately, that is something we have to take into account. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk about what sort of tests should be done following an MPN diagnosis. Can you tell me about those? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. Fundamental to the MPN itself, the things that we really want to know is, in most cases, a bone marrow examination is needed because that will tell us really what the disease is that we’re dealing with. It will tell us about the genetics. I strongly believe we have to be comprehensive in our genetic assessments because that does prognosticate and sometimes gives us an opportunity in terms of treatment. Chromosomal analysis. These are the basic bread and butter hematology tests we want to do from the bone marrow to really understand what the patient’s disease is. 

Beyond that, I think that particularly in patients with PV and ET, it’s important that we partner with their primary care physicians to make sure that they’ve had, for example, testing for diabetes, a recent lipid profile, any cardiovascular tests, particularly measurements of blood pressure because these things are all important in terms of an ET or PV patient’s risk of having a blood clot. So, there are, again, things that are within hematology realm but then, there are other general health things that become really important in somebody who is diagnosed with PV or ET. 

Katherine Banwell:

How often should lab tests of blood work be done? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It really depends on the patient. For some patients with PV, for example, they need to have their blood checked every three weeks because they’re having frequent phlebotomies. Whereas some patients with ET could probably go forward to six months between blood tests.  

So, it depends on the individual. 

Katherine Banwell:

How can results of biomarker testing affect treatment choices for patients with MPNs? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

 question. The genetics are becoming increasingly important in our treatment decisions. So, let’s take a simple example, which is patients with ET. Calreticulin and JAK2 and MPL are the three most common mutations that we see. But they have very different invocation. So, somebody could have a calreticulin-mutated ET and based on them having that calreticulin mutation and no other factors like no history of clotting, that patient may never need to go on a medication aside from aspirin. And even early on, it’s debatable whether or not some of these patients really need aspirin at all. 

Whereas somebody who had a JAK-2 mutant ET, our guidelines and data suggests that that person, once they reach a certain age, should probably be on medication. So, that’s kind of perhaps one of our more clearcut examples of a genetic biomarker telling us how to approach treatment. 

And then, it gets more nuanced from that and more exciting and interesting in the sense that there are mutations, for example, that occur in myelofibrosis and in patients whose disease is progressing towards leukemia, such as IDH mutations. And these are things that are now targetable with FDA-approved drugs.  

And there are now clinical trials combining JAK inhibitors and IDH inhibitors for patients who have more advanced disease who have these IDH mutations. So, you go from on one end, these genomic markers being of prognostic significance and now, on the other hand, we’re getting to a point where, in some cases, they might tell us how to best treat a patient. 

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, should all patients diagnosed with MPN’s undergo molecular testing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I strongly believe that. I think that we’ve learned so much that these tests have prognostic value. 

And in some cases, it may suggest a slightly different diagnosis. I definitely think that should be the case. 

Katherine Banwell:

What should patients be asking once they have the results? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

What does it mean? That’s the most basic and fundamental question. It’s one thing to get a list of mutations. But the real bread and butter question is what does this mean to the disease and my prognosis and my treatment?  Those are the key questions.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, what are the types of treatments available for MPNs?  And let’s start with myelofibrosis or MF. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

If we had had this discussion five years ago, it would be pretty simple, and it would take a minute or two. And that’s completely changing and that’s amazing, and it’s good for all of our patients.  

Right now, for patients with MF, it depends on what the issue is. If the issue is symptoms or spleen, JAK inhibitors are our first line of therapy. Three approved JAK inhibitors are currently available, two on the first side ruxolitinib (Jakafi) and fedratinib (Inrebic). And pacritinib (Vonjo) can be used for patients with really low platelet counts.   

There is a fourth JAK inhibitor that we expect to be, hopefully, approved in June of this year, momelotinib. So, the landscape is about to complete broaden in terms of just JAK inhibitors.  

But beyond the JAK inhibitors themselves, there are a number of late stage clinical trials that are combining JAK inhibitors with agents that work through a different mechanism that don’t work through inhibition of the JAK pathway. So far, these drugs have all shown promise in early phase trials. Now, the definitive Phase III trials are being done. We have to wait and see what the data tells us. But if these are positive trials, this could completely alter the landscape of MPN. 

Katherine Banwell:

There’s also transplants available, right? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Correct. Transplants for more advanced patients, which comes with some major risks. And so, that has to be thought of very carefully in terms of the risks and benefit. But it is a potentially curative strategy.  

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s turn to polycythemia vera or PV. What types of treatments are available? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s really quite a range. So, there are things like phlebotomy and aspirin, which has been the mainstay of therapy for many years. There are drugs like hydroxyurea (Hydrea), interferons, JAK inhibitors. So, ruxolitinib is approved in certain settings for treating polycythemia vera. So, the landscape is broad. There are a lot of questions going on right now with polycythemia vera with regards to how it should best be treated. Is the mainstay of phlebotomy and aspirin really what we should be doing or should we be giving patients treatment earlier on. 

And there is some data to suggest that. There is this drug called ropeginterferon (Besremi) that’s FDA-approved for polycythemia, which was compared in the study to phlebotomy and aspirin.  

And at least the data suggests that there may be better control of the disease and less progression possibly, and it’s a small number of patients, by treating patients earlier. Whereas we would have just given phlebotomy and aspirin. So, it’s something to consider. There are drugs in clinical trials as well that look promising one of which is called rusfertide, which actually works by changing the way iron is used by the body. 

Iron is a key component to hemoglobin and it is, of course, a key component to polycythemia in the sense that we phlebotomize patients to make them iron deficient and that’s how we control the disease. But this is a pharmacological way to do that. So, that drug is now in Phase III trials. So, that may also alter the landscape of treatment of PV in the near future. 

Katherine Banwell:

Finally, how is essential thrombocythemia treated? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

So, in some cases, with absolutely nothing as we had talked about a moment ago. There is some thought that in really, really low-risk patients. Maybe you don’t need to do anything except observe them. Whereas most patients are on an aspirin. And beyond that, we have drugs like interferon, pegylated interferon, and hydroxyurea and anagrelide, all of which can be utilized. It’s not entirely clear if there is one distinct first line treatment that is the best but these drugs are all active. JAK inhibitors have been studied in this setting. And to date, the data hasn’t led to their approval but, certainly, people have studied it.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, how can you tell if a treatment is effective? Are there signs that you look for? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, I think it’s a couple of things.  

One, are we meeting the treatment goals in terms of are we controlling blood counts with ET or PV? That’s one of the first principles in management. And with regards to MF, the same thing. Are patients’ symptoms being controlled? Is the spleen being adequately controlled? And then, there’s the symptom burden because just because the blood counts are being controlled, patients may still have symptoms, in which case, they are not being adequately treated. And then, we have to do our best to try to find a treatment strategy that does control their blood counts but also does control their symptoms. 

So, there is the blood count perspective but there is the symptom perspective as well. 

Katherine Banwell:

How do you know when it’s time to change treatments? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, I think really two things. One is if we aren’t meeting our goals like we just talked about. But the other aspect of that is if we are incurring toxicities that are just not tolerable to the patient and that’s a reason to change therapy always. 

Katherine Banwell:

Many patients, of course, worry about disease progression. Are there key predictors or tests for progression that patients should know about? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

This is a key area of investigation currently. I think one of the things that patients say to us so often when we meet them is what’s going to happen to me. And right now, we don’t have great prediction tools. We can say on a population level well, there is X percent of chance of progression at 15 years. That’s useful if you’re talking about a population. That’s not really useful if you’re talking to an individual. Because if I say to somebody there’s a 20 percent chance of your disease progressing to leukemia, it doesn’t really make a difference. That’s a meaningless statement because if you’re in the 20 percent who progress, it’s not a relevant statistic anymore.  

It’s sort of a binary thing. We’ve got to do better at developing this. This is something that the MPN Research Foundation is really heavily invested in in trying to identify predictive biomarkers. 

If we can do that, then perhaps what we can do is say to a patient this is really what we think your actual risk is. And then, the next step is asking the question if we intervene early, can we prevent that progression from occurring. So, that’s where I think we need to go. We aren’t there yet. 

Katherine Banwell:

What signs or symptoms do you look for that may indicate that the disease is progressing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The blood counts are often the canary in the coal mine regardless of the disease. They can tell us if ET or PV is progressing into MF or whether MF is progressing to more of a leukemic phase. Changes in symptoms sometimes can be a harbinger of disease progression. So, Patient 2, for example, is doing really well and now, he’s having drenching sweats and losing weight. So, those types of symptoms are a sign that physical findings is the size of the spleen if it’s increasing. 

All of those things together give us a hint about progression.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, is there any way to prevent progression?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

That is the million dollar question. Again, that’s where we ultimately need to be. We want to be able to intervene to a point where patients don’t get that sick. It would be amazing if we’d come to the point where we can intervene early and nobody progresses to late stage MF. Nobody gets leukemia. And I think that’s a worthy goal. That’s not something that we should think is too lofty of a goal. That should be our ultimate goal here. And a number of groups are investigating this exact question. It’s complicated and it’s going to take time. But I think that’s a worthwhile investment. 

Katherine Banwell:

Let’s talk about MPN symptoms and treatment side effects. Here’s a question we received from a viewer before the program. How common is peripheral neuropathy in primary myelofibrosis? 

And what is the best treatment for it? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Well, by itself, it’s not a very common symptom of MF by itself. Can it be a symptom? Sure. But there are also a number of things that can cause peripheral neuropathy. So, I’m not sure there’s a best treatment.   

But what needs to be done is a thorough investigation. There can be a number of causes. It could be nerve injury. It could be a deficiency in vitamins like B12. There are a lot of things that could cause it. So, that type of a symptom needs to be thought of in a broad way in terms of diagnosis.  

Katherine Banwell:

Jeff sent in this question. How could I manage the itching? Are there new treatments or strategies to live with itching? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Very common thing. And it’s an interesting thing explaining to when we teach our trainees about this symptom, we have to impress on them the fact that itching is not the itching that everybody else experiences. 

This is a very profoundly different symptom. It’s debilitating for so many people. I have patients who go to the Emergency Room for that. That’s how terrible it could be. There are a lot of things that could be tried. JAK inhibitors, in my experience, work very well for itching but not in everybody. We use sometimes antihistamines that can work well. Sometimes, antidepressants can work well, not because they’re treating depression but because of other properties that they have. And sometimes, UV light therapy can be useful tool here, too. A lot of patients swear by it. 

 Katherine Banwell:

Another common side effect is fatigue. Do you have any advice for managing this symptom? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Fatigue is the most common symptom across MPNs. And it is also one of the most difficult things to treat. Part of the issue is trying to figure out what does fatigue mean to the patient.  

When someone says they’re tired, does that mean they’re sleeping all of the time? Does that mean they don’t have get up and go? The first step is always understanding what does fatigue mean to the patient? And then, the second is trying to dissect that. In some cases, it’s related to anemia, in some cases, it’s not related to anemia and it’s just the disease itself.  

And in some cases, you have to think outside of the box about general medical issues like thyroid dysfunction that could be at play here. So, there isn’t one best fit. 

But the first test is always to dig deep. When someone says they have fatigue to dig deeper and try to figure out what is that really. 

Katherine Banwell: 

What other common symptoms do you hear about from patients? And what can be done about those?  

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

There are a lot of different things. It’s a spectrum. So, I think that itching and fatigue are very common. Feeling full early is, that’s a big thing, particularly in myelofibrosis patients.  

Bone pain, that’s another big one, particularly in myelofibrosis. There is not one therapy that is best for all. I think the JAK inhibitors, certainly, benefit many of these symptoms. But they don’t benefit everybody and not to the extent that makes it tolerable for everybody. So, often times, we struggle with this and try a lot of different things. But, again, I think one of the things to always remember is we don’t always want to say that this must be because of the MPN. Sometimes, symptom is arising because of another medical condition that’s going on concurrently. 

Katherine Banwell:

That’s good advice. Thank you. Let’s answer a few more audience questions we received. This one is from Calvin, “If your hematologist says you’re stable and responding well to Hydrea, should you still seek out a second opinion?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

It’s never wrong to seek out a second opinion. I strongly believe that, especially when you’re dealing with a disease that’s rare like this. 

And even seeking out a second opinion, even if you’re under the care of an expert in the field is never a wrong thing. I think that no one person knows everything. And sometimes, people’s experience and perspective is different. So, I don’t think that’s a bad thing ever.  

Katherine Banwell:

As a follow-up to Calvin’s question, is it sufficient to just look at what the blood tests reveal? Or does having  bone marrow biopsy dictate what treatment you should follow? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think the bone marrow is important, particularly at initial diagnosis or when there is a change. The blood counts are the canary in the coal mine. So, they tell us is there something else going on that we’re not thinking about. And that’s when the bone marrow becomes important. So, I definitely think bone marrow is important at certain points in the disease.  

Katherine Banwell:

Sandra has this question, “Are there new treatments for polycythemia vera being researched beyond interferon?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Yeah. So, we talked about rusfertide as an example of this. And there are, certainly, other drugs that have been evaluated in this space. So, there is a lot of work going on for this disease, which is really encouraging. 

Katherine Banwell:

Carolyn sent in this question, “Is there a possibility of bone marrow fibrosis reversal in myelofibrosis without a stem cell transplant?” 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The answer is yes. So, even with JAK inhibitors, we see that about a third of patients will have a reduction in bone marrow fibrosis. And this is a key question being investigated with some of the newer therapies that are being introduced into the treatment of myelofibrosis. And, certainly, we’ve seen data to date that suggests that the fibrosis can be reduced if not potentially eliminated in some cases.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, should all patients diagnosed with MPNs undergo molecular testing? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I strongly believe that. I think that we’ve learned so much that these tests are prognostic value. 

And in some cases, it may suggest a slightly different diagnosis. I definitely think that should be the case. 

Katherine Banwell:

What should patients be asking once they have the results? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

What does it mean? That’s the most basic and fundamental question. It’s one thing to get a list of mutations. But the real bread and butter question is what does this mean to the disease and my prognosis and my treatment?  Those are the key questions. 

Katherine Banwell:

Andrew wants to know does Jakafi cause other mutations to develop? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

That’s a really good question. Right now, we don’t think the answer is necessarily yes. We have seen that in some patients where the disease has progressed on Jakafi, mutations have emerged. 

But the problem is that genetic testing has limits of detection. In other words, the mutation appears, it may not have just appeared or been caused by the drug but that it may have been below our limits of detection and actually grew while the patient was on therapy, which does not mean that the drug caused the mutation but that it was allowed to emerge during treatment with the specific drug. So, that is an area of investigation.  

Katherine Banwell:

Well, thank you, Dr. Rampal. And please continue to send in your questions to question@powerfulpatients.org and we’ll work to get them answered on future webinars.  

You mentioned earlier clinical trials. And I’d like to dig a little bit deeper. Where do these fit into the treatment plan? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

I think they should always be considered. None of the therapies that we have do we consider curative. And in many cases, standard therapy is fine given a patient’s clinical situation. In a case where standard therapy is not working or where we think that a patient’s prognosis is particularly challenging, or if they have mutations that may confer resistance to current therapies. 

I think in those scenarios, a trial should always be considered. 

Katherine Banwell:

So, if a patient is interested in possibly participating in a clinical trial, what kinds of questions should they be asking their healthcare team? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

All of these trials are different. I think the first thing is to discuss what’s the risk, what’s the benefit of any given trial or drug. What stage and development is it? What’s the evidence to support it? And what can I expect from it?   

Katherine Banwell:

What about cost? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

So, trials, in general, have two components. One is what we call standard of care meaning that things we would do normally for in the course of a patient’s treatment would be billed to a patient’s insurance as if they weren’t on a trial. 

Almost all trials, the study drug or any tests that are being done specifically with regards to the study drug are all covered by whoever is sponsoring the trial.  

Katherine Banwell:

How do patients find out about where the clinical trials are taking place? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Usually, their physician should either, if they’re in a specialized center, they’ll have access there. But if they’re interested in trials and they’re being seen, for example, by a physician in the community who doesn’t necessarily specialize, asking for a referral to a major center where that MPN expertise is not an unreasonable approach to that. There is also clinicaltrials.gov where patients can go look for ongoing trials for their particular diagnosis.  

Katherine Banwell:

So, if patients want to learn more about MPNs, what sort of resources would you recommend? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

The thing I always say to patients is the internet is a very dangerous place for a variety of reasons. We have to, I think, do a good job of communicating to patients what are the resources. And the ones that I always point patients to are, for example, the MPN Advocacy International, the MPN Research Foundation, The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, and the American Cancer Society. Those are sources of information that are vetted by physicians. 

Some of that information is specifically for patients. Those, to me, are good sources for patients to read.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, as we close out our conversation, I wanted to get your thoughts on where we stand with progress and MPN care. Are there advances in research and treatment that make you hopeful? 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

Without a doubt. I think I’ve seen more progress in the last three years than I’ve seen in the last 10 years. And we have so many new drugs coming forward, new questions that we’re trying to answer, tough questions as you alluded to. The question about prognosis but also intervening early to prevent progression of disease. These are things that are difficult questions that we are trying to dig into now. So, I think we should be optimistic. We are seeing so many excellent developments. We’ll have to see how far they’re going to take us. I don’t think we know the answer to that. But this is an exciting time.  

Katherine Banwell:

Dr. Rampal, thank you so much for joining us. 

Dr. Raajit Rampal:

My pleasure.  

Katherine Banwell:

And thank you to all of our partners. To learn more about MPNs and to access tools to help you become a proactive patient, visit powerfulpatients.org. I’m Katherine Banwell. Thanks for being with us today.